Energy Owners Thread - Page 1748 - AVS Forum
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post #52411 of 52438 Old 09-13-2014, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by teookie View Post
Soooo I think I've found a dud in the Energy line, or I don't know what I'm doing. Check out this video I made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za6qzFj1uzk
You can hear that the Energy EAS-6C in-ceiling speakers sound like tin cans compared to the take classics. Anyone else have this experience? I expected the larger (6.5") ceiling speakers to put out better sound than the small (3") take classics. I just bought two pairs of the EAS-6C speakers and all four of them sound like this. I've double checked my wiring and the receiver settings and everything is set up properly. I have to crank up the bass and turn down the treble to get these things to sound half decent. If I can't find a solution they will have to go back to amazon which makes me sad since I am an Energy fan.
I don't think you can judge the sound like that. When they are mounted the joist space will act like a cabinet, right?
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post #52412 of 52438 Old 09-13-2014, 10:35 PM
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Soooo I think I've found a dud in the Energy line, or I don't know what I'm doing. Check out this video I made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za6qzFj1uzk
You can hear that the Energy EAS-6C in-ceiling speakers sound like tin cans compared to the take classics. Anyone else have this experience? I expected the larger (6.5") ceiling speakers to put out better sound than the small (3") take classics. I just bought two pairs of the EAS-6C speakers and all four of them sound like this. I've double checked my wiring and the receiver settings and everything is set up properly. I have to crank up the bass and turn down the treble to get these things to sound half decent. If I can't find a solution they will have to go back to amazon which makes me sad since I am an Energy fan.
You do realize that you are doing an apples to oranges comparison.. You are comparing an unmounted in-ceiling designed speaker to a enclosed and designed specified cabinet volume bookshelf speaker.... In what possible way is that a reasonable way to compare the two speakers overall sound? Not to mention, that the two speakers use totally different driver construction materials, and the tweeter in the 6C is bigger than the one in the Take speaker and you have the making of a huge discrepancy in sound between the two.. What you are essentially showing is the reason why you would need to have big bass and treble adjustment differences between the two and that is about it.... At least mount the in ceiling speaker in some sort of enclosure to even things up a bit...
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post #52413 of 52438 Old 09-13-2014, 11:41 PM
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I moved some speakers around about 4 months ago and wanted to report in. I switched RC-70s out with 22 Reference Connoisseurs and I have to say that I am excited to have music playing through them and look forward to turning them on. The RC-70s are great, but for music I have to define them as safe, not so much inspiring or exciting. (I have always found that the RC-70s are perfect for home theatre.) The 22 Reference Connoisseurs are high energy and powerful. I am really appreciating them as a speaker worth using. They are a great sounding and tremendously bass punchy speaker that generates excitement and passion for music. I'm loving them. I recommend to pick some up if you have the opportunity.

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post #52414 of 52438 Old 09-14-2014, 12:06 PM
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RC-70's are back to $299 each at Frys. Funny thing is I'm going there today to help buddy build a PC. Now these are going to be tempting me even though I have RC-70's already...
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post #52415 of 52438 Old 09-14-2014, 03:07 PM
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RC-70's are back to $299 each at Frys. Funny thing is I'm going there today to help buddy build a PC. Now these are going to be tempting me even though I have RC-70's already...
Just grab another set as surrounds/wides ( devil's advocate at playyyyy )

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post #52416 of 52438 Old 09-14-2014, 03:10 PM
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RC-70's are back to $299 each at Frys. Funny thing is I'm going there today to help buddy build a PC. Now these are going to be tempting me even though I have RC-70's already...
70's work great as rear channels ........ I have 70's as front Left and Right with RC-LCR as center and 70's for rear Left and Right and 50's for rear back channels.......sounds beyond excellent!!!
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post #52417 of 52438 Old 09-15-2014, 03:23 PM
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Cross-posting an issue here also from the Denon 2014 Atmos receiver page -

I have a 7.1 Veritas system - 2.3, 2.2, 2.0r, 2.0c - and really like them. Got a new Denon X5200W receiver and was excited to run Audyssey on the system - and it failed. wouldn't even go beyond the sub test. I thought the receiver was bad because the speaker it failed on - a 2.3 - was emitting the test tones correctly, but Audyssey reported that there was no speaker. Denon said to return the receiver... I started reading in this thread and found that my series of Veritas speakers is prone to the "dead woofer" syndrome - and that's what that speaker has - two dead woofers.
So I put the 2.3s in the back and moved the 2.2s on stands to the front - and Audyssey is reporting a phase reversal issue with one of them, and it plays the test tones at about 1/4 volume. Tried reversing the cable, but no dice.

Are these also prone to crossover issues?

Also, is there anywhere that can repair these speaker drivers and crossovers? I'm in the Los Angeles area. I really like the Veritas sound and look... I think they're worth fixing if possible.

Thanks!

Larry
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post #52418 of 52438 Old 09-15-2014, 04:08 PM
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Cross-posting an issue here also from the Denon 2014 Atmos receiver page -

I have a 7.1 Veritas system - 2.3, 2.2, 2.0r, 2.0c - and really like them. Got a new Denon X5200W receiver and was excited to run Audyssey on the system - and it failed. wouldn't even go beyond the sub test. I thought the receiver was bad because the speaker it failed on - a 2.3 - was emitting the test tones correctly, but Audyssey reported that there was no speaker. Denon said to return the receiver... I started reading in this thread and found that my series of Veritas speakers is prone to the "dead woofer" syndrome - and that's what that speaker has - two dead woofers.
So I put the 2.3s in the back and moved the 2.2s on stands to the front - and Audyssey is reporting a phase reversal issue with one of them, and it plays the test tones at about 1/4 volume. Tried reversing the cable, but no dice.

Are these also prone to crossover issues?

Also, is there anywhere that can repair these speaker drivers and crossovers? I'm in the Los Angeles area. I really like the Veritas sound and look... I think they're worth fixing if possible.

Thanks!

Larry
First off, were you using these speakers with another receiver prior to purchasing the Denon?... and if so, were they working fine then? Your Veritas speakers (non i ) versions can most definitely fail with frozen woofers, but first make sure they are hooked up securely with any bi wire/ bi amp shorting straps on the the speaker connection plate securely fastened also...

As far as the Audyssey phase reversal indication on your calibration routine of your Denon, it is definitely necessary to double check for proper phase speaker wiring, but the phase error message itself can be faulty.... due to various room and measurement issues... If you have double checked the receiver and speaker connections for the problem speaker, you could also try the "battery check" to confirm whether the phase is indeed correct inside your speaker... briefly connect wires from a small 9V battery to the speaker terminals and carefully watch whether the woofer extends out or pulls in. If properly connected "+" to "+" and "-" to "-" I believe the woofer should extend outward.

If you indeed have frozen woofers on the 2.3, replacing them is actually fairly simple, but finding good replacement woofers is a bit trickier at this point in the game... Call Energy and see what they say, but I assume replacement woofers direct from them may not be available anymore... Find out the actual replacement part number for your model's woofer and keep checking Ebay/Craigslist either for the part or maybe another speaker to use for parts....
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post #52419 of 52438 Old 09-15-2014, 04:16 PM
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The fact that the test tones are really low volume from that one V2.2 indicates it's not a simple "false positive" phase error. And I assume when you swapped cables the "bad" speaker stayed "bad" right? So it's definitely that speaker.

The frozen woofer test is easy -- you can simply push lightly with your fingers on the inside ring of the woofer and if it's "frozen" it will not slide in/out along the pole piece (phase plug).

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post #52420 of 52438 Old 09-15-2014, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by deano86 View Post
First off, were you using these speakers with another receiver prior to purchasing the Denon?... and if so, were they working fine then? Your Veritas speakers (non i ) versions can most definitely fail with frozen woofers, but first make sure they are hooked up securely with any bi wire/ bi amp shorting straps on the the speaker connection plate securely fastened also...

As far as the Audyssey phase reversal indication on your calibration routine of your Denon, it is definitely necessary to double check for proper phase speaker wiring, but the phase error message itself can be faulty.... due to various room and measurement issues... If you have double checked the receiver and speaker connections for the problem speaker, you could also try the "battery check" to confirm whether the phase is indeed correct inside your speaker... briefly connect wires from a small 9V battery to the speaker terminals and carefully watch whether the woofer extends out or pulls in. If properly connected "+" to "+" and "-" to "-" I believe the woofer should extend outward.

If you indeed have frozen woofers on the 2.3, replacing them is actually fairly simple, but finding good replacement woofers is a bit trickier at this point in the game... Call Energy and see what they say, but I assume replacement woofers direct from them may not be available anymore... Find out the actual replacement part number for your model's woofer and keep checking Ebay/Craigslist either for the part or maybe another speaker to use for parts....
Hi, deano86 -

Thanks for this - I had everything connected to a Pioneer 59Txi before and the last time I ran the MACC, it had no issues - but that was a simple version of that from about 10 years ago. I'm not sure it could report issues. The binding posts are all secure, and the banana connecters seem solid. The 59Txi lost its center channel amp, and, I was assuming, the left channel as well... turns out the center speaker is fine - the L 2.3 had failed. I had never heard of a dead woofer issue before this weekend doing a search on this forum.

The woofers on the one 2.3 feel COMPLETELY different from the other 2.3 - the frozen ones feel dead - no movement at all, verses the other one - as well as on all the other speakers, which has movement.

I'll try the 9v test tonight when I get home... The test tones on the one 2.2 that shows phase reversal issues are at most 1/4 the volume of the other speaker test tones. I did try Audyssey with the wires reversed and it made no difference at all. I will simply swap 2.2 speakers next to see if the problem stays put on that side or moves with the speaker.
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post #52421 of 52438 Old 09-15-2014, 06:34 PM
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The fact that the test tones are really low volume from that one V2.2 indicates it's not a simple "false positive" phase error. And I assume when you swapped cables the "bad" speaker stayed "bad" right? So it's definitely that speaker.

The frozen woofer test is easy -- you can simply push lightly with your fingers on the inside ring of the woofer and if it's "frozen" it will not slide in/out along the pole piece (phase plug).
Going to triple check the cables next -

The frozen woofer test I used was simply to observe that the woofer cone felt dead - it did not move at all - like it was attached to something. The other woofers moved in and out on their foam rings as one would expect.
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post #52422 of 52438 Old 09-15-2014, 08:18 PM
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Man, what a run of bad luck having that many woofers freeze up so close together! Good luck with finding replacements. Could be tough to find that many.
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post #52423 of 52438 Old 09-15-2014, 09:08 PM
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Assuming you have a good sub to fill in, one thing you can do is swap a bad woofer for a good from the other V2.3 and run them each with one good woofer. They will obviously be a bit bash shy and it's not a long term solution but it will at least get you up and running in a pinch while you figure out the next move.

The woofers are trivially easy to take out in these speakers, just unscrew from the back and the whole assembly pops out the front.

The only wrinkle is that, because of the "tapered crossover" used by Energy on these speakers, one woofer goes all the way to the 550hz crossover with the midrange whereas the other only goes up to 300hz. I assume the upper one is the "full range" one (to be coherent with the midrange just above it) but just so you are aware, if you pick the wrong one you'll have a gap between 300-550hz.
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post #52424 of 52438 Old 09-15-2014, 09:09 PM
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The fact that the test tones are really low volume from that one V2.2 indicates it's not a simple "false positive" phase error. And I assume when you swapped cables the "bad" speaker stayed "bad" right? So it's definitely that speaker.

The frozen woofer test is easy -- you can simply push lightly with your fingers on the inside ring of the woofer and if it's "frozen" it will not slide in/out along the pole piece (phase plug).
Tried SEVERAL more calibration runs (I think my wife hates me now), this time with the 2.2 switched to the left side - it passed the first time, passed the 2nd time (but my dipole 2.0r failed the phase test), failed the third time, passed the fourth and fifth times. So I'm going to go with ok at this point I think...

The two woofers on the 2.3, well, they're definitely dead. I checked ebay and there was one NEW one in FRANCE for $99 plus $45 shipping - not sure I want to get involved with intercontinental EBay ordering (my life has enough drama) ... someone on Craigs list in my area have some 2.4s in "average shape with no grills" for $850. That's way more than I would want to pay for decade-old speakers with a reputation (well-earned, apparently!) for blowing woofers.

What the heck makes the woofers do that? And why can't it be undone? I read all I could on this but don't get it...
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post #52425 of 52438 Old 09-15-2014, 09:13 PM
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You might have missed my post in the other thread but I linked a few Veritas ads on local craigslists in SoCal. There's a pair of 2.3i in Chino for a reasonable price too.

The flaw has to do with the way the pole screws directly through the back of the magnet and heat sink assembly. It places tension on the connection between the woofer and the voice coil, and eventually it fails and the woofer rips off and gets stuck. The updated woofer design fixed the flaw.

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post #52426 of 52438 Old 09-15-2014, 10:34 PM
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You might have missed my post in the other thread but I linked a few Veritas ads on local craigslists in SoCal. There's a pair of 2.3i in Chino for a reasonable price too.

The flaw has to do with the way the pole screws directly through the back of the magnet and heat sink assembly. It places tension on the connection between the woofer and the voice coil, and eventually it fails and the woofer rips off and gets stuck. The updated woofer design fixed the flaw.
batpig - I did see your other post - I looked at those ads as well. The 2.3s in Oceanside for $888 look EXACTLY like mine. That seems a lot to pay for such old speakers with a known history for this particular failure. I took really good care of mine - and one died... horribly... but it still looks "fine." The ones in the ad look fine, too. I paid about $1k a piece for mine as store demos. I guess $888 for, if nothing else, spare parts, wouldn't be too bad.
I wonder if the woofer can be repaired. Anyone hear of a company able to do that?
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post #52427 of 52438 Old 09-15-2014, 10:49 PM
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batpig - I did see your other post - I looked at those ads as well. The 2.3s in Oceanside for $888 look EXACTLY like mine. That seems a lot to pay for such old speakers with a known history for this particular failure. I took really good care of mine - and one died... horribly... but it still looks "fine." The ones in the ad look fine, too. I paid about $1k a piece for mine as store demos. I guess $888 for, if nothing else, spare parts, wouldn't be too bad.
I wonder if the woofer can be repaired. Anyone hear of a company able to do that?
The key is the "i" in 2.3i
This is the speaker with the updated/non freezing woofers.
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post #52428 of 52438 Old 09-16-2014, 01:47 AM
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I also have a 2.3, 2.1, 2.0c, 2.0r system. I purchased a woofer as a spare for my 2.3 towers from the eBay seller from France. No problem with shipping and it showed up double - boxed with the speaker in the original box, still taped closed from the factory.

When I got it last year, the seller said they had 16 of them. I haven't seen any come up anywhere else with the correct part number (4dr//51870), and you need that number to match the Ohm rating.

Maybe you can get a bit of a discount on shipping if you get two.
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post #52429 of 52438 Old 09-16-2014, 07:41 AM
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Assuming you have a good sub to fill in, one thing you can do is swap a bad woofer for a good from the other V2.3 and run them each with one good woofer. They will obviously be a bit bash shy and it's not a long term solution but it will at least get you up and running in a pinch while you figure out the next move.

The woofers are trivially easy to take out in these speakers, just unscrew from the back and the whole assembly pops out the front.

The only wrinkle is that, because of the "tapered crossover" used by Energy on these speakers, one woofer goes all the way to the 550hz crossover with the midrange whereas the other only goes up to 300hz. I assume the upper one is the "full range" one (to be coherent with the midrange just above it) but just so you are aware, if you pick the wrong one you'll have a gap between 300-550hz.
"Trivially easy" sounds good to me. I have done some work on speakers - replacing foam surrounds that dissolved in some '70s era Infinity speakers (RSe, I believe), but not much else. I looked on the back of the 2.3, and it looks like there's just a hex bolt holding it in - how are the wires attached? Clips? Solder?

I do have a nice sub - an Energy Microstar 12.1 - 1300 watts of neighbor-bothering goodness. It was on a close-out, too. still sounds good if I don't overdo it. Audyssey had me turn it down quit a bit from what I had it at before (50%) down to about 30%. Sounds much better now.
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post #52430 of 52438 Old 09-16-2014, 07:42 AM
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I also have a 2.3, 2.1, 2.0c, 2.0r system. I purchased a woofer as a spare for my 2.3 towers from the eBay seller from France. No problem with shipping and it showed up double - boxed with the speaker in the original box, still taped closed from the factory.

When I got it last year, the seller said they had 16 of them. I haven't seen any come up anywhere else with the correct part number (4dr//51870), and you need that number to match the Ohm rating.

Maybe you can get a bit of a discount on shipping if you get two.
Thanks, Fears4Ears - I appreciate your feedback on the seller. I emailed him/her to see if they have more than one. If they do, I'll order two of them. Maybe 3 as I don't seem to be having the best of luck with them.
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post #52431 of 52438 Old 09-16-2014, 07:52 AM
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Man, what a run of bad luck having that many woofers freeze up so close together! Good luck with finding replacements. Could be tough to find that many.
It's just my two woofers on one speaker... I bought them from a Good Guys store as store demos. I wasn't sure it was a good idea, but they sounded good/looked ok. Less than half price. I did have to pay full retail for the center speaker b/c I wanted cherry to match.

All the rubberized coatings on the speaker tops/sides and on the 2.3 ports on the bottom have turned to sticky goo.I cleaned off the tops and sides (with denatured alcohol) because they were dust magnets. The ports are still sticky but not as much of a problem.

I have always loved the sound of these speakers - I hope I can get some replacement woofers... we'll see.
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post #52432 of 52438 Old 09-16-2014, 10:17 AM
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"Trivially easy" sounds good to me. I have done some work on speakers - replacing foam surrounds that dissolved in some '70s era Infinity speakers (RSe, I believe), but not much else. I looked on the back of the 2.3, and it looks like there's just a hex bolt holding it in - how are the wires attached? Clips? Solder?

I do have a nice sub - an Energy Microstar 12.1 - 1300 watts of neighbor-bothering goodness. It was on a close-out, too. still sounds good if I don't overdo it. Audyssey had me turn it down quit a bit from what I had it at before (50%) down to about 30%. Sounds much better now.
When I played around with the woofer on a pair of V2.1's I had, it appeared to just be clips, no solder. Here's a photo.



BTW - I agree that $888 is overpriced for a pair of non-i Veritas V2.3. That's about market value for a pair of V2.3i in good condition, but non-i should be more like $600ish. He's been advertising those for a few months so maybe it will come down eventually. I wouldn't get those for the price, especially not when there is someone else offering a pair of V2.3i for $750 over in Chino (although those are in gloss black, if you are willing to go that route).

If you are intrepid you could probably part out the V2.3's and recoup a lot of cost by selling the good woofers, the Convergent Source Modules, crossovers, etc. separately. Or you could just sell them as is for a couple of hundred if you want to be lazy.

Out of curiosity what do you think abou the Microstar 12.1? This is a sub that is very difficult to find any info about. It seems very similar to the old Velodyne HGS modules, a small sealed box stuffed full with a big servo controlled woofer and a monster amp.

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post #52433 of 52438 Old 09-16-2014, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
When I played around with the woofer on a pair of V2.1's I had, it appeared to just be clips, no solder. Here's a photo.



BTW - I agree that $888 is overpriced for a pair of non-i Veritas V2.3. That's about market value for a pair of V2.3i in good condition, but non-i should be more like $600ish. He's been advertising those for a few months so maybe it will come down eventually. I wouldn't get those for the price, especially not when there is someone else offering a pair of V2.3i for $750 over in Chino (although those are in gloss black, if you are willing to go that route).

If you are intrepid you could probably part out the V2.3's and recoup a lot of cost by selling the good woofers, the Convergent Source Modules, crossovers, etc. separately. Or you could just sell them as is for a couple of hundred if you want to be lazy.

Out of curiosity what do you think abou the Microstar 12.1? This is a sub that is very difficult to find any info about. It seems very similar to the old Velodyne HGS modules, a small sealed box stuffed full with a big servo controlled woofer and a monster amp.
Thanks for the pic! I JUST got back from my house - wanted to see if it was as easy as you say to swap them out, and to verify the part number. It was even easier... 10 seconds tops. The part number is correct. I've been corresponding with the seller in France and will order 3 of them (one spare) as soon as I can figure out how to order multiples of it off of eBay - I might just have to place three separate bids I guess.

So - for $450 I'm going to get a working set of 2.3s that I know and will match the rest of my setup - plus have a spare new woofer to help with other failures down the road. We'll see how this works - Fears4Ears on this thread gives a good report of the seller - going to try it.

The Microstar 12.1 sub is REALLY powerful. It rocked the entire store when I was shopping for it. I have had zero issues with it in the decade I've had it. Its reputation was that it was pretty decent for music (my main interest at the time) as well as movies. It has not disappointed. I like subs to blend in with the speakers, and it does that well with these Veritas speakers. It just seems to fill in nicely - but when called upon, it delivers. Woof! It was the store demo - which they said Energy had discontinued - something about a patent dispute with Carver over the amp design. Don't know if that's true - I tried to attach the pdf of the owner's manual that has some info on it but it's too big (2mb) - if you send me your email address (pm?) I'll forward that on to you.

Really - thanks for your help on the Veritas and the Denon X5200W... it is genuinely appreciated!

Last edited by LDBecker; Yesterday at 05:13 PM. Reason: poor punctuation
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post #52434 of 52438 Old Yesterday, 07:58 AM
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I've posted in here before about selling my speakers, but have kept them because I've enjoyed them. However, I could now use the money. Are cherry Rc-10 and RC-LCR still in demand at all? Searching on craigslist, I didn't see any other cherry so wasn't sure if I'd be wasting my time.

Thanks.
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post #52435 of 52438 Old Yesterday, 08:24 AM
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I don't see many people with the C-10 or C-50's? Anyone else have these? I enjoy them quite a bit, they are running from my SC71. The only thing they really lack is bass, but that is to be expected. The clarity and warmth/fullness is really nice. I only have maybe 30 hours of listening on them, so they should warm up even more.

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post #52436 of 52438 Old Yesterday, 10:40 AM
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I don't see many people with the C-10 or C-50's? Anyone else have these? I enjoy them quite a bit, they are running from my SC71. The only thing they really lack is bass, but that is to be expected. The clarity and warmth/fullness is really nice. I only have maybe 30 hours of listening on them, so they should warm up even more.

I'm running CF-30s fronts, CC-5 center, and CB-5s surrounds with an S10 sub, powered by a Denon 1911 receiver in my small den, and am pleased with the performance.


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post #52437 of 52438 Old Yesterday, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDBecker View Post
So - for $450 I'm going to get a working set of 2.3s that I know and will match the rest of my setup - plus have a spare new woofer to help with other failures down the road. We'll see how this works - Fears4Ears on this thread gives a good report of the seller - going to try it.

The Microstar 12.1 sub is REALLY powerful. It rocked the entire store when I was shopping for it. I have had zero issues with it in the decade I've had it.
Really - thanks for your help on the Veritas and the Denon X5200W... it is genuinely appreciated!
Didn't see this series of posts regarding your troubles until today, but I have to say that I'm really pleased that you have been able to find a workable solution...and hope you'll stick around the thread! I've gotten some (actually, a lot!) of great help over time here, and it's great that it looks like you'll be able to enjoy your speakers for the foreseeable future; they are a great speaker series, so am glad you didn't have to part with them.
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post #52438 of 52438 Old Yesterday, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by johnb4467 View Post
Didn't see this series of posts regarding your troubles until today, but I have to say that I'm really pleased that you have been able to find a workable solution...and hope you'll stick around the thread! I've gotten some (actually, a lot!) of great help over time here, and it's great that it looks like you'll be able to enjoy your speakers for the foreseeable future; they are a great speaker series, so am glad you didn't have to part with them.
Well - the verdict is still out on the eBay French Connection for new speakers. He's apparently using Google Translate to communicate, and it isn't going well. I wanted to buy 3 of them off his page, but his eBay page is set up for bidding on one at a time. I tried to do three, as he seemed to be suggesting, and ended up bidding against myself. He then asked me to deal directly with him, which may have been more expedient and less expensive, but not what eBay wants. I think he meant well...

I also reached out to a repair place that used to sell new ones but ran out - they said they could repair the voice coils on the woofers for about $125 each - still not too bad.

Last edited by LDBecker; Yesterday at 05:12 PM. Reason: clarification on repairs
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