Energy Owners Thread - Page 1770 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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batpig's Avatar batpig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
They were black and looked pretty beat up.
Good I don't feel bad at all now.
tang7969's Avatar tang7969
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post #53072 of 53100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
Got it. Looks like they are available at both local stores too. Shame they only have the black ash finish. Have never liked speakers in that finish. Just seems so damn cheap.
But for $550, I may just pick them up simply because they are a quality speaker. Wish I could find another set of my V2.2i's for the same price!!! In fact, I'm hoping I can come across either a single or maybe a damaged pair for a good deal. Really want to swap out the center channel with another V2.2i. The Veritas center isn't very good. What sucks is that I had an Atlantic Technology THX Ultra 450 center and sold it to get the matching Veritas center. It was a HUGE step down for dialog. Have regretted it ever since. I'm sure another V2.2i as my center would be a huge step up.
If I do end up buying these RC-70s, they will either sit in their boxes or get used as surrounds. Too bad I can't afford 4 of them to use as my side and rear surrounds.
They do not look cheap at all in person. It's real wood.
jmac2000's Avatar jmac2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post
What receiver do you have? Some receivers need a firmware update to fix a bug decoding the DD+ audio bitstreams that Netflix sends (there's a whole thread on it).

If you think that could be the issue, try changing your streaming device to output something other than DD+.
Went into PS3 audio settings and un-checked DD+ as an option for audio output. Problem solved immediately! Many thanks!
neutro's Avatar neutro
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post #53074 of 53100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
I don't have a definitive answer to your question but perhaps some insight can be gleaned from the NRC measurements from the Soundstage review of the RC-70's
Thanks a lot for having taken the time to dig that up. Very interesting.

Quote:
Then in the "deviation from linearity" section, again almost perfectly linear at 90dB, at 95dB a bit of compression in the upper bass (80-300Hz) and a teeny bit at high freqs, and at 100dB the deviation looks to be about 2-3dB low... so probably again some compression, so maybe there's something to it.
Yeah deviation from linearity *is* compression right? So compression begins to be noticeable at 100 dB, 2m on their tests.

Quote:
Note however that these measurements are at 2m distance, so not nearfield, so you don't have to subract much to get to a standard 3-4m type listening distance.
Well, isn't it 6 dB @ 4m then? so compression would be noticeable at about 94 dB SPL at 4m.

Quote:
In that context 95dB is REALLY loud especially for music -- it's likely that they can get to crazy loud music volumes before any strain shows.
That's for sure. But as you added, the question was, can speakers with aluminum dome tweeters reach (HT/movie listening) reference levels without compressing, and since transients can hit 105 dB SPL max, then it's likely the RC-70s would compress in the highs under those conditions; compression should be noticeable above -10 dB from ref (circa 95 dB SPL) at 4 m.

However these measurements were likely done in an anechoic room, so what about boundaries? I'm more familiar with subs now so I have no idea if reflections on surfaces (which are really echoes in the high frequencies) should be included in total level. They could add several dBs to the levels produced by the speakers.

Quote:
I don't think it's controversial to say that they aren't the ideal choice if you are looking for dedicated HT speakers capable of easily hitting reference levels.
Ok well I don't listen at reference levels very often -- mostly during "demo nights" and only for short periods (not a whole movie). Regular movie watching occur at much lower levels due to kids sleeping But I can potentially use this as an excuse for an upgrade, which is interesting. That will have to wait a few years though
Iron Maiden's Avatar Iron Maiden
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Well, gonna head over this afternoon and pick up a pair. No need for them, just feeling like it's too good a deal to pass on. At least the black ash finish is an actual veneer. I figured that finish wasn't. If I get bored, I may end up stripping them and stain/finish them a nicer color.
My plan now is to go pick them up and set them up as my mains and start them breaking in. Full range, no subs. Shouldn't take long, they will be powered by my Cinenova Grande which is well over 300w/ch.
Then I can start switching back and forth between them and my 2.2i's to see which I prefer better for 2ch music. Source will be cd's through my Oppo BDP-103, into my Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista Tube Dac, into my Parasound Halo C2. A setup that sure has my 2.2i's sounding beautiful.
I will try out a few SACDs and DVD Audio's as well. Can't wait!
laserjock II's Avatar laserjock II
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
Well, gonna head over this afternoon and pick up a pair. No need for them, just feeling like it's too good a deal to pass on. At least the black ash finish is an actual veneer. I figured that finish wasn't. If I get bored, I may end up stripping them and stain/finish them a nicer color.
My plan now is to go pick them up and set them up as my mains and start them breaking in. Full range, no subs. Shouldn't take long, they will be powered by my Cinenova Grande which is well over 300w/ch.
Then I can start switching back and forth between them and my 2.2i's to see which I prefer better for 2ch music. Source will be cd's through my Oppo BDP-103, into my Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista Tube Dac, into my Parasound Halo C2. A setup that sure has my 2.2i's sounding beautiful.
I will try out a few SACDs and DVD Audio's as well. Can't wait!
Sounds like an awesome setup.
Let us know how they compare.
batpig's Avatar batpig
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post #53077 of 53100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post
Yeah deviation from linearity *is* compression right? So compression begins to be noticeable at 100 dB, 2m on their tests.
That's how I would interpret it. If the the line starts to "sag" from the horizontal (negative deviation) that would indicate the system is compressing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post
Well, isn't it 6 dB @ 4m then? so compression would be noticeable at about 94 dB SPL at 4m.

However these measurements were likely done in an anechoic room, so what about boundaries? I'm more familiar with subs now so I have no idea if reflections on surfaces (which are really echoes in the high frequencies) should be included in total level. They could add several dBs to the levels produced by the speakers.
Yeah, every extra meter of distance is about a 3dB drop in SPL. And conversely, room gain will add a few dB. For example, I played around with this SPL calculator and they have a parameter for boundary effects. When you go from "away from walls" to "near a wall" to "in a corner" each step adds 3dB to the calculation.

Obviously there are a lot of variables here, but I think it's fairly safe to conclude that they can play cleanly to VERY loud levels -- loud enough for nearly any music listening for sure -- but unless you have a very small room they are almost certainly compressing at least a little bit on powerful dynamic transient peaks.

Personally, having never had the fortune to seriously A/B test quality systems playing at those types of levels, I'm not sure how audible that bit of compression would really be in a "real world" scenario. It may be virtually inaudible unless you have a really big room. For the typical home setting where you cap out 10-15dB below reference, it's probably a total non issue.
mattdub1's Avatar mattdub1
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So I'm trying to follow this...is tweeter compression the same as distortion? Does this mean my v6.3 are likely not able to play at reference without risking damage to them from distortion? I figure these measurements would be comparable since the v6.3 is similar to the rc70
batpig's Avatar batpig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdub1 View Post
So I'm trying to follow this...is tweeter compression the same as distortion? Does this mean my v6.3 are likely not able to play at reference without risking damage to them from distortion? I figure these measurements would be comparable since the v6.3 is similar to the rc70
Honestly, I'm venturing a bit out of my confort zone right now as I don't know the real technical answers to these kind of questions. I do know that compression and distortion are NOT the same thing, or rather, compression is one type of distortion.

I also don't think it's as simple as saying you are "risking damage" by running them to the point where they are compressing a little bit. There's not some "break point" where suddenly above that point the speaker gets damaged, it's probably a continuum where as you go louder and louder, the speaker experiences more and more strain, and eventually something will hit its thermal/mechanical limits. But that's true for any speaker.

I think rather than over obsessing about it, just use common sense -- if the speakers sounds good, that means it's not at risk of damage. If you were pushing it so hard that it might get damaged, you would probably hear the sound get harsh, painful, etc. And, even if theoretically it compresses a bit during dynamic peaks, they are transient so unlikely to cause any real damage. Now, if you tried to crank music at an average level of 100dB+ continuously for hours, something could overhead and break, but a brief explosion in a movie? probably not.

Interestingly, while searching for measurements on the V6.3 when writing this post (unfortunately I couldn't find any which should that kind of "deviation from linearity" measurement the NRC did) I came across this note in the Audioholics review, relevant to the discussion recently about the grills:

Above [below here] is a ratio plot illustrating the effects of the grille cover on the V-6.3s amplitude response. If the cover were perfectly transparent acoustically, the ratio plot would be as straight as an arrow centered on the horizontal 0 dB axis. As can be seen, the grille cover does have an effect, particularly noticeable in the 3kHz – 20 kHz range. For this review, all critical listening was done with the grill covers removed.


neutro's Avatar neutro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Yeah, every extra meter of distance is about a 3dB drop in SPL.
Rather, I think every doubling of the distance reduce the output by half, i.e. 6 dB, so going from 2 m to 4 m removes 6 dB.

Quote:
For example, I played around with this SPL calculator and they have a parameter for boundary effects. When you go from "away from walls" to "near a wall" to "in a corner" each step adds 3dB to the calculation.
That site is exactly why I posted the question -- I was wondering what "near a wall" means exactly. I thought that was pretty much frequency-dependent, with low frequencies being easier to boost this way. I'm not sure this applies to tweeters with centimeter-scale wavelengths.

Quote:
Personally, having never had the fortune to seriously A/B test quality systems playing at those types of levels, I'm not sure how audible that bit of compression would really be in a "real world" scenario.
Me neither. Moreover the topic that lead to this question was basically, are we comfortable listening to movies at reference volume. I said that personally, the highs are the limiting factor, and sounds of crashes, glass breaking, etc. close to reference volume are a bit painful. Some argued that this was probably because my tweeters couldn't go that high without causing harshness due to compression.

I first doubted the compression part, but it looks like it probably happens. Now as far as I can tell, compression is just "in these frequencies, the speaker can't output more" -- it doesn't add unwanted components like harmonic distortion for example. (Compression is indeed a form of distortion, distortion being anything that produces a signal that is not a scaled version of the source signal. Note that we typically make a distinction between distortion and parasitic noise.)

So if compression mostly reduce output in the highs, I can't conceive how this can be perceived as harshness or would actually be less comfortable to listen to than the uncompressed signal. I think the answer to that is that with loud transients, compression can look a lot like clipping, hence the harshness. In any case, somehow the discomfort I get from loud highs doesn't fit this picture -- I think loud highs just hurt my ears. They seem very clear to me; I'd love to compare but I suspect a high-end HT speaker that can play highs cleaner at louder level would just hurt me more

Quote:
For the typical home setting where you cap out 10-15dB below reference, it's probably a total non issue.
Absolutely! Not changing speakers because of this! Just said it was a good excuse if I ever needed one
Iron Maiden's Avatar Iron Maiden
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Rolled into Frys today. They had 3 listening rooms. An in-wall/in-ceiling room. A 2 channel room. And a Dolby Atmos theater room. The RC-70's were the mains in the Atmos theater room. So couldn't really test em' out without the distraction of all the other speakers in the room. The 2ch room had crap speakers in there. JBL, Polk, Klipsch.. No RC-70's!!
I almost didn't pull the trigger. They didn't look nice in the room. I really couldn't see the finish very well. They kinda looked blah. Doing the knuckle knock testing around the enclosure(very accurate testing procedure btw), they didn't seem as solid as I thought they would be. Mainly on the sides near the lower woofers. Almost like it needs some side to side bracing in that area.
Walked around the store telling myself I didn't need them.
Hour or so later, I found myself back in that dept.







Iron Maiden's Avatar Iron Maiden
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Had to pop em open to see first hand if I bought a quality product.
Tweeter.



Midrange



Woofers. Both have the same model# on them in case anyone wondered.









Drivers are all very nice. No disappointed at all. Very nice quality. Only thing on them that don't seem very high end are the crossovers. Nothing like the crossovers in the Veritas.

Iron Maiden's Avatar Iron Maiden
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Next to the Veritas 2.2i's. Been running them for several hours now. Right out the gate.... they sure didn't sound very good. Within 20 min or so they already sound great. Every aspect of them sounds better now. I'm playing them "Large" (full range) with no sub. They need to sit where my Veritas are sitting for my couch so I'm sitting on the ottoman and that works. Imaging is certainly there.






dkfan9
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Can someone give me a pro con on the rc70s vs the cf70s? Just curious how much better the rc70s are, or if the cf70s are any good at all
thewalrusking's Avatar thewalrusking
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Ok, I see there are a TON of pages on this thread. I just do not have the time to do searches through the thread to find my answer. Do we have any general consesus on what would be decent upgrades to the C-50 or the center CC-50? Is there any real benefit in staying Energy or should I shop elsewhere? I need a larger bookshelf speaker and I would love to keep the Energy sound (warmer) or move somewhere else if it boosts my sound quality.

I love my 2.1 setup (w center) and I just need something more without spending over $1000. Is there a brand I can upgrade to? I know Energy has been taken over and havent really updated in years.
afrogt's Avatar afrogt
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Energy RC-10's were just on sale for $199/pr during a one day sale earlier this week. They're going for $229/pr now which is still a good price.

http://www.frys.com/product/7777388?...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG

they're much better than the C-50 or CC-50. I upgraded from C-100 and C-C100 to RC-10 and RC-LCR. Huge upgrade in my opinion.

The LCR is $219 as of this post

http://www.frys.com/product/7815829?...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG
laserjock II's Avatar laserjock II
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
Had to pop em open to see first hand if I bought a quality product.
Tweeter.



Midrange



Woofers. Both have the same model# on them in case anyone wondered.









Drivers are all very nice. No disappointed at all. Very nice quality. Only thing on them that don't seem very high end are the crossovers. Nothing like the crossovers in the Veritas.
Nice pics.
I had to take the binding post plate off of my RC-LCR because the bi-wire strap had come loose and fell inside the rear port during shipment.
rb racing's Avatar rb racing
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So who sells Energy speakers stateside beside Frys and Vanns?
In Canada Futureshop still has limited models available.
batpig's Avatar batpig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkfan9 View Post
Can someone give me a pro con on the rc70s vs the cf70s? Just curious how much better the rc70s are, or if the cf70s are any good at all
The C series is quite good for an entry level speaker. Being part of the post-Klipsch buyout Energy models, they have a brighter, more forward sound profile than the RC's, which is probably a good thing for people using them for budget HT because they sound a bit clearer and more dynamic.

The RC's however are much more refined, with a warmer, more laid back sound but still with plenty of clarity and detail. Plus they have signficantly better build quality. Normally, it would be a tougher decision because of the price gap, but with the crazy low prices from Fry's it's a no brainer to go with the RC-70's.
beahead99's Avatar beahead99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
The C series is quite good for an entry level speaker. Being part of the post-Klipsch buyout Energy models, they have a brighter, more forward sound profile than the RC's, which is probably a good thing for people using them for budget HT because they sound a bit clearer and more dynamic.

The RC's however are much more refined, with a warmer, more laid back sound but still with plenty of clarity and detail. Plus they have signficantly better build quality. Normally, it would be a tougher decision because of the price gap, but with the crazy low prices from Fry's it's a no brainer to go with the RC-70's.
hey batpig, is there a big difference upgrading fronts RC-10's to RC-70s? saying that the center the RC-LCR and RC-10s are being used for back and surrounds?
crudler's Avatar crudler
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I have a set of RC-70's as fronts, and a RC-LCR as my centre channel, and RC bookshelves as rear speakers. I have been very happy so far.


I am upgrading to a 7.1 setup, and need to go in-wall for my rear speakers (all 4). Does anyone have a recommendation of a speaker /brand that would pair well with the RC-70's and RC-LCR? I can't find any decent energy in-wall speakers, so I've been looking at Kef Q series and Paradigm in wall speakers.


Anyone have any recommendations?
batpig's Avatar batpig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beahead99 View Post
hey batpig, is there a big difference upgrading fronts RC-10's to RC-70s? saying that the center the RC-LCR and RC-10s are being used for back and surrounds?
To be honest, I've never been able to directly compare them. The RC-70's are definitely better speakers, the queston is whether that difference is going to be noticeable in your circumstances. If you listen to a lot of 2ch music, then definitely it will be a big difference. If you are just mainly watching TV and movies at a moderate volume in a small room.... probably not.
batpig's Avatar batpig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crudler View Post
I have a set of RC-70's as fronts, and a RC-LCR as my centre channel, and RC bookshelves as rear speakers. I have been very happy so far.

I am upgrading to a 7.1 setup, and need to go in-wall for my rear speakers (all 4). Does anyone have a recommendation of a speaker /brand that would pair well with the RC-70's and RC-LCR? I can't find any decent energy in-wall speakers, so I've been looking at Kef Q series and Paradigm in wall speakers.

Anyone have any recommendations?
Energy used to produce RC series in-walls to match the traditional box speakers, but they have been long since discontinued and are hard to find.

Personally, I would recommend looking to PSB speakers. Paul Barton (owner/designer) hails from the same school as John Tchilinguirian (Energy's long time head prior to Klipsch buyout), they both were schooled in similar design principles of good speaker design working with Dr. Floyd Toole at Canada's NRC research facilities. As such, I would expect PSB products to have the best chance of being a good tonal match to Energy speakers.

That said, surround speaker tonal matching isn't super critical, so if you ended up with Paradigm or Polk speakers instead, you'd probably be fine, especially if your receiver has good room correction EQ software.
gas33
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While watching television through an antenna, my RC 70 speakers made a random, very loud "pop." About an hour later, there was another very loud pop when there was a high-five on the show. There were then one or two more seemingly random pops later one before I switched to the TV speakers.

My Sony receiver was playing at moderate volume when this occurred, a little below 50% of maximum.

Anyone have thoughts on why this occurred?
crudler's Avatar crudler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Energy used to produce RC series in-walls to match the traditional box speakers, but they have been long since discontinued and are hard to find.

Personally, I would recommend looking to PSB speakers. Paul Barton (owner/designer) hails from the same school as John Tchilinguirian (Energy's long time head prior to Klipsch buyout), they both were schooled in similar design principles of good speaker design working with Dr. Floyd Toole at Canada's NRC research facilities. As such, I would expect PSB products to have the best chance of being a good tonal match to Energy speakers.

That said, surround speaker tonal matching isn't super critical, so if you ended up with Paradigm or Polk speakers instead, you'd probably be fine, especially if your receiver has good room correction EQ software.
Batpig- thanks for the advice. I was struggling to find matching in-walls, and the EAS series in walls carried at Futureshop/BestBuy do not sound very good (even if I am just using them as surround speakers).


I've always liked PSB speakers - I will have to go try a set out and see.


The reason why I want to make sure I get a decent tonal match is because I do something listen to music with 5/7 channel surround. So I will have all 7 speakers going to fill up the room with sound. I know the energies are Aluminum dome tweeters, so I was hoping the Kef's would match up well given they are an Aluminum surround. Paradigm is also an aluminum dome.
The PSB's appear to be titanium or "metal dome" design. I'll have to see if I can find somewhere that carries them (with a generous return policy just in case).



Thanks
crudler's Avatar crudler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spinnin View Post
Have you heard / owned the RC-10? Is there a large difference in sound quality when compared to the RC-LCR with their separate midrange drivers vs the 2-way RC-10?
All depends on how picky you are. I use the RC-10's as rears, RC70 as fronts and a RC-LCR as my centre channel. I tried using an RC-10 as a centre channel, and was not completely happy. The LCR does a much better job for listening to dialogue in movies. I didn't notice much difference for 5 channel audio though.
afrogt's Avatar afrogt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gas33 View Post
While watching television through an antenna, my RC 70 speakers made a random, very loud "pop." About an hour later, there was another very loud pop when there was a high-five on the show. There were then one or two more seemingly random pops later one before I switched to the TV speakers.

My Sony receiver was playing at moderate volume when this occurred, a little below 50% of maximum.

Anyone have thoughts on why this occurred?
Its not your speakers, its the receiver or the source causing the pop. My guess is the receiver...
afrogt's Avatar afrogt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beahead99 View Post
hey batpig, is there a big difference upgrading fronts RC-10's to RC-70s? saying that the center the RC-LCR and RC-10s are being used for back and surrounds?
I have RC-10's, RC-70's and LCR. The 70's are much fuller sounding, can handle more power (will not compress at louder volumes) and obviously have more bass.

I'd recommend getting the RC-70's, especially while they are going for $249 each.

And if you play any two channel music you'll appreciate the difference.
spinnin's Avatar spinnin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crudler View Post
All depends on how picky you are. I use the RC-10's as rears, RC70 as fronts and a RC-LCR as my centre channel. I tried using an RC-10 as a centre channel, and was not completely happy. The LCR does a much better job for listening to dialogue in movies. I didn't notice much difference for 5 channel audio though.
Thanks for the reply. I guess I'm wondering if there's a "big" difference in using the front three speakers with two RC-10 & one RC-LCR vs. three RC-LCR.
gas33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
Its not your speakers, its the receiver or the source causing the pop. My guess is the receiver...
Thanks, I'll have to do some troubleshooting. It never happened when using a lower quality set of speakers with the same receiver, and I'm unsure why it would be different now.
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