Energy Owners Thread - Page 1795 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #53821 of 53848 Old 05-21-2015, 09:31 AM
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So it almost sounds as if the run of RC's is done. Damn, maybe I will pick up another pair!!!
I'm still keeping an eye open for Veritas crossovers and tweeters.
I'm thinking it would be a fun experiment to just swap in the Veritas xovers into the RC70s.
Will need to double check the impedance of all the drivers to make sure they match to the Veritas before hand, and take a look at the individual xover points of the drivers.

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CAT Tiburons(rear surr) ~ Sub... custom 15" Diamond Audio Technology ~ Xbox One
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post #53822 of 53848 Old 05-21-2015, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
So it almost sounds as if the run of RC's is done. Damn, maybe I will pick up another pair!!!
I'm still keeping an eye open for Veritas crossovers and tweeters.
I'm thinking it would be a fun experiment to just swap in the Veritas xovers into the RC70s.
Will need to double check the impedance of all the drivers to make sure they match to the Veritas before hand, and take a look at the individual xover points of the drivers.
Interesting concept changing the rc-70 tweeters for some i series. I dont know how that would work though work the cabinet and the cut openings. It appears that the veritas tweeter/midrange module was crossed over at ~550 hz, and the RC-70 crosses between the 5.5" midrange and woofers at 600hz. So you would need to replace both the RC-70 tweeter and 5.5" midrange with the one veritas module, so the opening in the RC-70 cabinet would be way too large.

If you were planning on using the veritas module with the 5.5" midrange and woofers of the RC-70's, there wouldnt be enough space above the 5.5" midrange for the module, unless you turned it sideways. Even then I think it would be way too tight.

Its an interesting concept, but I think it reality it would be quite difficult to do.
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post #53823 of 53848 Old 05-21-2015, 12:01 PM
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can anyone help recommend a pair of rear speakers for the following setup i already have in a dedicated 13x20 media room?

denon x2100w
energy rc-70 pair up front
energy rc-lcr center
axiom qs8 side surrounds
svs pb1000 sub

i was leaning toward getting a pair of rc-10's to wall mount at the rear of the room (about 5-6 feet behind the seating area). but the rc-10's are quite big to wall mount. would a simple pair of satellite speakers of some sort be adequate for the rears? any suggestions would be appreciated!! thank you.
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post #53824 of 53848 Old 05-21-2015, 02:20 PM
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I would swap the tweeters no problem. As far as the whole csm module(Veritas mid & tweet) it's far smaller than the 5.5" mid/tweet setup on the RC70. It would fit but obviously not without modifying the cabinet/baffle.
My goal all along was to find a damaged 2.3i/2.4i to build into a center channel. Have never liked the 2.0i center. It really should have used the dome mid as well.
One of these days I will find what I need to make something custom. For fun if nothing else.

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post #53825 of 53848 Old 05-21-2015, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbonyc View Post
can anyone help recommend a pair of rear speakers for the following setup i already have in a dedicated 13x20 media room?

denon x2100w
energy rc-70 pair up front
energy rc-lcr center
axiom qs8 side surrounds
svs pb1000 sub

i was leaning toward getting a pair of rc-10's to wall mount at the rear of the room (about 5-6 feet behind the seating area). but the rc-10's are quite big to wall mount. would a simple pair of satellite speakers of some sort be adequate for the rears? any suggestions would be appreciated!! thank you.
What about another pair of QS8's if you're happy with them? Or the smaller QS4s if you want to save some cash.

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post #53826 of 53848 Old 05-22-2015, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
I would swap the tweeters no problem. As far as the whole csm module(Veritas mid & tweet) it's far smaller than the 5.5" mid/tweet setup on the RC70. It would fit but obviously not without modifying the cabinet/baffle.
My goal all along was to find a damaged 2.3i/2.4i to build into a center channel. Have never liked the 2.0i center. It really should have used the dome mid as well.
One of these days I will find what I need to make something custom. For fun if nothing else.
It looks like you could replace the tweeter on the V2.0Ci with the whole csm module, which would be pretty cool. It looks like it would fit between the woofers and you would just need to cut the right size hole. You could probably use the csm module from a 2.2i, 2.3i, or 2.4i, but like you said before you would need to check the resistance. I would imagine you could use the crossover from each of those as well with some modification. It looks like the V2.3i is a 4 way design and the V2.4i is a 5 way design, so those might be a little more complicated.

I wonder if you could use the crossover from an RC-LCR and use it for the modified V2.0Ci since its a 3 way design. That might be interesting to try out, and probably on the easier side in comparison. The RC-LCR crosses over at 600 hz and 2.5 khz, and the 2.2i crosses over at 550 hz and 2.0 khz, so they are in the same ball park.

I really dont know much at all about modifying crossovers, but I'm finding your project quite interesting. So please keep us updated.
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post #53827 of 53848 Old 05-22-2015, 11:01 AM
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Iron Maiden, I just found this if you are interested:
http://reconingspeakers.com/product/...e-2-2-2-3-2-4/
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post #53828 of 53848 Old 05-22-2015, 11:09 AM
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Hi

i have energy cf30, cc5 and cb5 setup...i am glad using energy speakers...

i wanna change center for cc10, isthe difference will be huge..

and also i first equip them with pioneer vxs520, then jump to marantz nr1602 and now pair them with yamaha rx-v767...yamaha sound is huge with them..what brands match with energy speakers best?
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post #53829 of 53848 Old 05-22-2015, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgallerie View Post
Iron Maiden, I just found this if you are interested:
http://reconingspeakers.com/product/...e-2-2-2-3-2-4/
Wow. It is saying brand new. Will contact them to see if they actually have them. A bit pricey but used are not much cheaper.
My thought on the center with a CSM module would be to fiberglass a pod for the module so that it positions the dome mid centered between or slightly above center of the woofers. The tweeter would sit above the top of the enclosure. Think B&W tweeter pods. I would fiberglass a pod like that to house it. The crossover is the issue. Still think a 2.3i crossover would work for it. Would be a fun little project.

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post #53830 of 53848 Old 05-22-2015, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
So it almost sounds as if the run of RC's is done. Damn, maybe I will pick up another pair!!! snip...
When I bought my RC setup years ago, a lot of members were saying 'this
is the end of the energy speakers , get them now ! '...
and yet the rc 70's rc-lcr and rc 10 speakers are still selling like crazy...

Last edited by JoeNc; 05-23-2015 at 05:06 PM. Reason: made mistake
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post #53831 of 53848 Old 05-22-2015, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeNc View Post
When I bought my RC setup years ago, a lot of members were saying 'this
is the end of the energy speakers , get them now ! '...
and yet the rc 70's rcr and rc 10 speakers are still selling like crazy...
Clearly, "members" have no clue what they were talking about. Just one repeats after another.
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post #53832 of 53848 Old 05-22-2015, 08:40 PM
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Energy Owners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
Have never liked the 2.0i center. It really should have used the dome mid as well.

Now you're talking. I replaced a 2.0C with a 2.2i on a 12" stand (Target HS-30). Looks awkward but it all fits under my screen and sounds awesome. Dialog is so clear.

The problem with DIY is how do you know when you've got it right? Unless you have measurement equipment. I measured my room with ARC and the frequency response chart for the Center was not impressive (actually downright bad with the 2.0C) but I lived with it for years because it sounded OK.
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post #53833 of 53848 Old 05-22-2015, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeNc View Post
When I bought my RC setup years ago, a lot of members were saying 'this
is the end of the energy speakers , get them now ! '...
and yet the rc 70's rcr and rc 10 speakers are still selling like crazy...
Where are you finding RC-Rs? Those have been super hard to find for years.

Life is hard, be harder.
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post #53834 of 53848 Old 05-23-2015, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
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Now you're talking. I replaced a 2.0C with a 2.2i on a 12" stand (Target HS-30). Looks awkward but it all fits under my screen and sounds awesome. Dialog is so clear.

The problem with DIY is how do you know when you've got it right? Unless you have measurement equipment. I measured my room with ARC and the frequency response chart for the Center was not impressive (actually downright bad with the 2.0C) but I lived with it for years because it sounded OK.
Only thing I will be able to use to measure it is by using REW. I am yet to buy the USB mic yet. Waiting for the two UXL-18's to be added to my system before bothering getting it.

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post #53835 of 53848 Old 05-23-2015, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by tinhvo View Post
Clearly, "members" have no clue what they were talking about. Just one repeats after another.
Clearly, they just get the information from the vendor or mfrs and pass it off as truth.

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post #53836 of 53848 Old 05-23-2015, 05:05 PM
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Where are you finding RC-Rs? Those have been super hard to find for years.
Sorry , I mean rc-lcr...which I really enjoy...
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post #53837 of 53848 Old 05-23-2015, 06:40 PM
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Sorry , I mean rc-lcr...which I really enjoy...
Fry's Electronics has them.

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post #53838 of 53848 Old 05-23-2015, 06:41 PM
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Hi folks -

was in BB today looking at a few speakers, and the salesdude turned on the energy CF-50 towers and they sounded intriguing.

(this is the thread that got me there - trying to get a stout 5.0 system for HT in a rather large room help me find the 5.0 to join my 0.1 :-) )


So, i look at the price tag atop one of the towers, and it says.. $169 per. Seemed like a great price? I asked him about it, he gives me an alarmed look, runs over and says 'oh that shouldn't be there, but since it was..i'll honor that price for you'. At this point i wasn't sure whether we were playing the used-car salesman game or not, but he gave me his card and I came home to do some research. Apparently these go at BB, newegg and amazon for $439 each? So I would be getting a pair brand new in the box for like $550 off?

Does this sound like a great deal, or is that price a realistic value for them? Also, given my room size needs (linky above), would these suffice? I believe if it were a good idea that I could even get 4 at the price (or 5!) and use them for surrounds and center as well - he didnt seem to concerned about honoring the price for me.

Thanks - want to make sure i'm not getting played, and also that at the end of the day i'm buying speakers that can excel at their role for me.

Cheers!
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post #53839 of 53848 Old 05-23-2015, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorno View Post
Hi folks -

was in BB today looking at a few speakers, and the salesdude turned on the energy CF-50 towers and they sounded intriguing.

(this is the thread that got me there - trying to get a stout 5.0 system for HT in a rather large room help me find the 5.0 to join my 0.1 :-) )


So, i look at the price tag atop one of the towers, and it says.. $169 per. Seemed like a great price? I asked him about it, he gives me an alarmed look, runs over and says 'oh that shouldn't be there, but since it was..i'll honor that price for you'. At this point i wasn't sure whether we were playing the used-car salesman game or not, but he gave me his card and I came home to do some research. Apparently these go at BB, newegg and amazon for $439 each? So I would be getting a pair brand new in the box for like $550 off?

Does this sound like a great deal, or is that price a realistic value for them? Also, given my room size needs (linky above), would these suffice? I believe if it were a good idea that I could even get 4 at the price (or 5!) and use them for surrounds and center as well - he didnt seem to concerned about honoring the price for me.

Thanks - want to make sure i'm not getting played, and also that at the end of the day i'm buying speakers that can excel at their role for me.

Cheers!
That is a good price, but the RC70s are well worth the extra $30 if you a Fry's nearby.
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post #53840 of 53848 Old 05-24-2015, 11:14 PM
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So i had settled on putting the rear speakers in my 7.1 system from a mismatched pair of various speakers to all four to NHT superone 2.1....... Buuuut saw two pairs of rc-10s sitting on the shelf at frys. I am running a set of rc70 and lcr for the fronts.

Opinions of the nht vs rc10s?

They will have to be ceiling mounted no matter what type I go with and I realize this in an energy owners thread. But just don't know how the nht will match up, everything I've read says they will match just fine for rears as the nhts are very neutral. I'm looking for the speaker that will disappear the most and have the wider sound but still have a solid bottom end.
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post #53841 of 53848 Old 05-25-2015, 10:10 AM
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I would go with the RC10s simply because you already have RCs up front and the fact that they are very nice.
Either will work though. I have heard so many systems with both matched and mismatched rear speakers and both can sound great. My system uses mismatched rears and they perform really well.
A lot of it comes down to setup when dealing with the rears. My setup has the speakers behind the ends of the couch, but aimed at the side walls, slightly towards the front of the room so that the sound reflects off the walls and then to the seating position. Really diffuses the sound and creates a great surround feel.

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post #53842 of 53848 Old Yesterday, 10:27 AM
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Data dump!

Well, I said that I would update you all with REW measurements. Again I will be comparing Reference Connoisseur line with Pioneer Andrew Jones first model. Also, hopefully sharing more information on effects of multiple subs even though they are different and effects of Audyssey XT32.

Review previous post for RC-70 vs FS-SP51 comparison and measurements here.

Today Pioneer C21 center vs. RC-LCR:

Frequency response nearfield (6" from center of speaker):


The top series of measurements are nearfield measurements with Audyssey implemented. Bottom two measurements are more relevant with no equalization. Red is Pioneer in both series.

Lowest THD:




The RC-LCR's lowest distortion was from the tweeter itself at 2.7k .052% @ 88dB , where as the C21 measured .343% THD at same 2.7k but lower 76dB.

Highest THD for RC-LCR and improvement with XT32:



I'm not sure how accurate these comparisons are since they were measured with the LCR horizontally placed and measured in center of speaker. However it was interesting to see the highest THD pre-Audyssey was 11k% below the crossover point and after it was 10k% lower at a point above the crossover.

The next few measurements are not related to the Energy speakers but instead my DIY Ultimax sealed subwoofer and HSU VTF-2 integration.

Nearfield 12" Ultimax with iNuke3000DSP measurements:


This shows a 22hz -3 point after equalization which I am very pleased with. Top -3 point is not valid due to crossover.

This next graph demonstrates the improvement of multiple subwoofers in a room even if they are a mismatch.


Improvements of XT32 in sub region with dual subs. Could be better I'm sure.


Overall response including mains without Audyssey and including Audyssey flat running 3dB hot on the subs. These are my final settings.

Last edited by sicride; Yesterday at 07:08 PM.
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post #53843 of 53848 Old Yesterday, 10:46 AM
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Eye candy... Photos of my setup. My RC-LCR is in exact same position as the C21 in this picture. I actually leave grilles on the speakers, it tricks my mind into making the speakers disappear more.



HSU VTF-2 sitting right next to my seat.
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post #53844 of 53848 Old Yesterday, 01:48 PM
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I'm kind of surprised at what xt32 did to eq the sub's. Looks like in some spots it made the response worse...

If the only thing different in those two measurements is audyssey vs no audyssey, its hard to believe xt32 would create that nasty dip around 88hz...

Last edited by mattdub1; Yesterday at 08:07 PM.
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post #53845 of 53848 Old Yesterday, 05:22 PM
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Nice! So it looks like you've goosed the sub gain at least 5 dB above your speakers. I noticed my setup is like that too when I took some measurements last night. Is that typical for a home theater setup, to enhance the LFE channel? I tried reducing the gain a bit to give a flatter response, but movies just didn't have much impact, so I put the gain back up. i'd love to just goose the LFE channel, while keeping the L/R channel response flat for music, but I'm not sure I can do that with my AVR.
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post #53846 of 53848 Old Yesterday, 08:03 PM
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Yes, audyssey and dynamic eq will raise the lfe if your receiver is equipped. That's because for reference calibration, the lfe runs 10db hotter. Room modes can also cause dips and peaks. Most people prefer a "house curve" like this where the low frequencies are running hotter than the rest of the curve

If you have an avr with audyssey, you can use bypass l/r which will no longer apply the audyssey curve to the l/r

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post #53847 of 53848 Old Today, 04:09 AM
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Audyssey did make some areas "worse" however, the overall frequency response on the original curve was +/-10dB, after calibration it was +/-7. While not optimal it is still a 6dB difference overall. We all know how important 6dB is. If I ever get off my lazy butt I will build my second built in sub and then we'll probably have something to work with.
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post #53848 of 53848 Old Today, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by sicride View Post
Audyssey did make some areas "worse" however, the overall frequency response on the original curve was +/-10dB, after calibration it was +/-7. While not optimal it is still a 6dB difference overall. We all know how important 6dB is. If I ever get off my lazy butt I will build my second built in sub and then we'll probably have something to work with.
@sicride - can you tell us more about how you are conducting the bass measurements (before/after Audyssey)? You mentioned nearfield measurements but I assume those are at the sweet spot? Are you taking single point measurements or averaging multiple measures?

One thing about assessing performance of Audyssey REQ is that it's a multipoint system, when you move the mic around its algorithm assesses the "priority" of the problems it finds based on clustering analysis. The idea is to expend resources correcting problems that are present throughout the listening area and not try to correct a problem that is highly localized. For example, it's not worth it to pull down a 4dB peak that only exists at one mic position, because applying a -4dB correction at that point would just cause a dip at the other spots. What your ears/brain hears is not really accurately represented by a single point measurement (at least not in terms of small dips/peaks) because you have two ears, your head moves a bit, and your brain works to synthesize it into the perception of the audio.

This clustering analysis means that a single point analysis may not actually reveal how "well" Audyssey worked to achieve its goal. It also implies that when integrating multiple subs, the goal should be to improve spatial variation more than aiming for a flat pre-EQ frequency response. MultEQ filters can do a lot to flatten a ragged response, but no EQ can change spatial variation -- you can't correct a problem at one point without it impacting other points in space.

Anyway, all that said, ideally you'd want to move the mic around when measuring with REW to get a sense of the spatial variation. It's possible that MultEQ did a much better job than you think if you examine the correction over a broader area of coverage.

Just as an example, here's a graph I made a few weeks ago showing the spatial variation across the couch of the corrected (post Audyssey XT32) response of the subs + center channel. It's 6 measurements covering almost 4ft of horizontal distance across the couch, the measurements are rainbow colored from left to right (red, orange, yellow etc).



You can see (although I didn't include an actual average) that if you squint the "cluster" of the 6 lines very closely tracks the Audyssey reference curve -- flat up to 4kHz, gently declining to 10kHz with a steeper rolloff above 10kHz. However none of the individual lines perfectly track, especially below ~300Hz (below which the room modes have a huge impact). There's some obvious width modes happening around 30Hz, 90Hz, and 150Hz (roughly).

Just some food for thought about how measurements need to be used with caution.
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