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post #1081 of 52519 Old 03-14-2007, 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwtoxman View Post

Both Athena and Energy make products to a similar philosophy, so they will sound more similar than different

Are'nt Athena and Energy part of the same group (API)?

Seems these lines share some common design/form. I'd swear the Athena cabinets/front-baffle's are the exact same as used on the past Energy C-Series product-line, only different driver/electronics. Although their operating characteristics (design-philosophy) are probably similiar (flat response throughout frequency spectrum, wide-dispersion).
http://www.athenaspeakers.com/modelASF2specs.htm
http://www.energy-speakers.com/v2/pr...age.php?id=266

I would think the Energy RC-Series are a step beyond in technology- with kevlar/composite drivers and all. Although the overall operational charateristics may be very similiar. I've never heard the Athena's so I could'nt say how much different-sounding these two different speakers really are. I suppose in home theater they may not differ drastically (I don't know)?
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post #1082 of 52519 Old 03-14-2007, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by StopTheExcuses View Post

Wow! Maybe I will save my money and use the AS-F2's,ect,ect that I already have. I mainly use my speakers/HT for Movies/Sports/ and video gaming. I very seldom listen to just music or cd's. Is that what you would suggest? I don't want to spend upwards of 2K for a *slight* improvement.

I'd consider going to real bass if you don't have it. Something like dual SVS or HSU subs with a parametric EQ like the Velo SMS-1 or SVS audyssey coming out. That set up will blow you away in HT and gaming. Dual pb 12+'s (or pc12+'s) would be good for up to about 3500 cubic feet for me (closed room), then I'd consider dual pb12+/2's.

Another option is a decent high end AV receiver if you don't already have one. My friend bought the Pioneer elite VSX 74 TXVi and it sounds beautiful with the athena as-f2's. Warm enough to take the edge off of the tweeter a bit. And a beautiful unit. The high end Marantz are awesome too, and noted for their quality and slightly warm presentation. Having a Marantz myself I highly recommend them. Something like the 8001 or 9600.

Good luck and report back.

kw.......
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post #1083 of 52519 Old 03-14-2007, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

Are'nt Athena and Energy part of the same group (API)?

Seems these lines share some common design/form. I'd swear the Athena cabinets/front-baffle's are the exact same as used on the past Energy C-Series product-line, only different driver/electronics. Although their operating characteristics (design-philosophy) are probably similiar (flat response throughout frequency spectrum, wide-dispersion).
http://www.athenaspeakers.com/modelASF2specs.htm
http://www.energy-speakers.com/v2/pr...age.php?id=266

I would think the Energy RC-Series are a step beyond in technology- with kevlar/composite drivers and all. Although the overall operational charateristics may be very similiar. I've never heard the Athena's so I could'nt say how much different-sounding these two different speakers really are. I suppose in home theater they may not differ drastically (I don't know)?

Yup, Energy and athena are part of API, which is now owned by Klipsch.

kw.........
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post #1084 of 52519 Old 03-15-2007, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post


I'm not "hands-on" familiar with Cambridge Audio stuff, although read good things about them. Nor am I "hands-on" familiar with the Denon integrated amps, only their receivers and DVD players. I'm sure the Denon 2000R is good as they make good products.

However, I'm very big on NAD. I've used a C162/C272 pre-amp/amp combo (with RC-30's) it's a very nice-sounding set-up (especially for the price). I don't think you can beat NAD on price for quality and performance. Now I use 3 C272 amps (150W X 2 each) combined with a Yamaha RX-V1600 receiver as part of a Home Theater/Audio system.

Both the NAD C352 & C372 integrated-amps are very good. The C372 is based on the C272 amp (150W X 2), I would try to get one of these, new or used (preferably new).

Moreover, I've also heard some fantastic sounding integrated amps made by Musical Fidelity, in-particular the A5:

Good luck, and have fun!

I think I've narrowed my amp choices down to the following list.

Rega Brio 3
Music Hall A25.2
NAD C352/C372
Cambridge Audio Azure
Possibly something from Arcam

The Music Hall seems to have unanimously good reviews. NAD products seem to either give the impression that they totally rock, or are pretty bland, depending on the listener. Cambridge seems to have a good reputation also, but I haven't read any stellar reviews. I don't know a whole lot about Arcam or Rega but put them on the list as they seem to be popular in my price range.

What are the advantages of buying new vs used? If I go with something used from Audiogon, I can pick up something that normally would be much more expensive. Do amps deteriorate over time making it more advantageous to buy new? What does the Class A, Class B, etc, designation mean?

Thanks again
Josh
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post #1085 of 52519 Old 03-16-2007, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehlarson View Post

Well, no I am not a new age fan but I will agree with you that the voice coil arrangement on the Veritas is such that you need to be picky with your amp if you are a bass-head. Too bad you didn't get the 2.4. I think you would have liked it.

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Originally Posted by Djoel View Post

Are you apposed on getting a sub? That would help,but I understand that some listeners do not like the integration prosses and the lack of that seamless transaction from sub to main There are subs now that have built in Eq, which help integration with your main speakers.

Djoel

Hey Ehlarson/Djoel,

Guess what, I am going to try out the Veritas 2.4i I must think that the sound should be more IMPACT than 2.3i after hearing you folks on this thread.. the only thing I want to check out whether it is worth that price difference (the 2.4i do cause quite a many dollars more than 2.3i). I will just bring my Exposure 3010 to see how the 2.4 sound. About the sub (Djoel) the 2.3i already have a very deep base, why would I want a sub if I am not going HT or those 5:1 staff.?? The Veritas 2.3i is very revealling, any bad recording or bad player source will immediately be expose. I still think very highly of Veritas after listening to so many speakers in the Veritas price range.
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post #1086 of 52519 Old 03-16-2007, 02:46 PM
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The 2.4i's may be a little cleaner in the bass because of the extra woofer to discretely split the bass response duties. It won't have any more impact than the 2.3i's other than it will play lower, but it depends on what your music taste is. Most of my music doesn't play low enough in the bass to show what the 2.4i's are capable of.

Have fun, and report back.

thx

kw...........
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post #1087 of 52519 Old 03-17-2007, 07:48 PM
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2.3 vs 2.4. The 2.4i needs lots of room around it (5 feet from any boundary) because of the rear and front port, the 2.3i does not, you can practically push it right up against a wall with no ill effect. Do that with the 2.4is and you get muddy sound.

If you want bass and want the rest of the range to sound good get a good subwoofer instead. The 2.3i has a lot of impact with a subwoofer. You only need the 2.4i if you have a very large room and lots of space to leave around the speakers.
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post #1088 of 52519 Old 03-17-2007, 09:42 PM
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I audition many speakers yesterdays (JMLab Profile 918, Epos, DynaAudio Focus &Audience 72, PolkAudio LSi15, ATC, Thiel C2.3, Montor Audio GS20/GS60). Some speakers cost much than than Veritas 2.3i. The only Ampl used is Exposure 3010 (which is my 2nd Ampl, I use Martanz PM15 on V2.3i still like it) I believe strongly to test a speaker you got to bring your own ampl and bring your own favourite MusicCD. DynaAudio has great musical very good mid and tight bass, but the high is not as clear as Energy, must have something to do with their tweeter that uses soft material (like Jamo). I always notice those soft tweeter the "gong" and "bell" of the NewAge Music always fade off very quickly (some are even worst, cannot even hear it, the ATC simply did not have any of the High note at all but cost so much). Thiel is really flat I dont hear anything I like at all with regard to NewAge Music. Monitor Audio is good and very musical clear on high and mid but no bass.
V2.4i: Surprising the V2.4i bass seem to get all mixed up, the room is not big about 200sqft rectangular with another two speaker behind it,it is only a 2-3 feet away from the wall. The bass also disapper I simply dont hear what I am getting out of my V2.3i in anyway the sound is not impressive (also noted the new shop I audit the v2.4i is different from the shop that I have audit the V2.3i, the V2.3i have more elaborate Audio room setup, the V2.4i room is more than a Electronic Shop setup, to make it worst concrete wall on 3 sides of the spearker (rear and side). The sound really bad and I am very very surprise!! V2.4i sound worst than my V2.3i, must have something very much to do with the room. Epos is OK but so and so.
I audition the Polk Audio LSi15 it is actually very nice and have all three (high, mid and low perhaps musically not as rich sound as DynaAudio but close enough). Very well price, I am surprise why people has low opinion of Polk Audio and put off the brand (Myself too prior to hearing it). Probably due to its cheap car speaker??
Anyway I live in apartment, I do not have big room to accomodate V2.4i acoustic setup. I can only have 1-2ft from backwall only. RIght now I put off my purchase for a cooling off period, I considering strongly PolkAudio LSI15 since I alreay own a V2.3i
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post #1089 of 52519 Old 03-17-2007, 10:27 PM
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Very interesting comments SingHiFi, especially in regards to Monitor Audio. I have always been intrigued with Monitor Audio products, I hear they are very good (they have new Bronze series that are supposed to be very good).

Thanks for all your input!
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post #1090 of 52519 Old 03-18-2007, 08:23 AM
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I'm using Naim 140. It's a pretty old amp, rated at 45watts. For the most part it's ok, but lacks the dynamics.
Any recommendations ?

I'm planning on getting a sub to augment the bass for the 2.2i. Is SVS sub a good match for the Veritas 2.2s?
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post #1091 of 52519 Old 03-18-2007, 08:56 AM
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My Viritas V2.4i just walk out my house,I've sold them..I am going to miss them dearly.Strange the last few days they appear to sound their best! As they new if they work better they would stay.Just like a girlfriend that knows things are not working out,they start to do special things,with more effort .But the reason they had to go was the lack of space in the new Apt. I didn't want to tell the speakers they where to FAT!

I am going to miss that sweet,sweet sounds...Oh well on to the next...

DJoel


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post #1092 of 52519 Old 03-18-2007, 09:41 AM
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This is what I was trying to tell you a small room with large speakers vented in the front and back will not work. The problem you are encountering is probably bass cancellation because of phase issues in the room. It probably sounds a bit lumpy and muddy at best.

Go back to the 2.3i speakers they work way better in this regard because the port is only in front and they don't try to go as low. Get a subwoofer because ported speakers distort a lot below their optimal frequency (about 80 hertz on the 2.3is). At normal volumes, 80 to 90 db nominal, you will get 10 to 15% harmonic distortion much below 80 with either type optimally placed. You will get far better sound because you can put the subwoofer in a place in a room that gives optimal bass. The main speakers have to go where they image correctly.
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post #1093 of 52519 Old 03-18-2007, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ersen79 View Post

I know this is going to sound silly but its been 2 days and I am testing veritas 2.2i against RC-10 and there seems to be not much difference in sound. Infact the rc-10 has more deeper bass. where as the high frequency on 2.2 is greater cant decide which one to keep.

Your power source (amp) probably is not sufficient to run the Veritas and extract the real performance from them. The woofers have dual voice coils and need high current amps like Parasound, Krell, Bryston, etc to move them. The dome midrange and convergent source module are far superior to whats in the RC10s as well.

Its really not an apples to apples comparison, because the Veritas cost 3 times the price, BUT they will require better components.
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post #1094 of 52519 Old 03-18-2007, 05:02 PM
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Rc-10 versus veritas, the issue isn't amplification, you are hearing harmonic distortion from the RC-10 that is much higher than in the 2.2. Harmonics are multiples of the signal frequency so if the signal is at 40 the multiples are at 80, 120 160 etc. The bass sounds richer until you realize it isn't in the recording.
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post #1095 of 52519 Old 03-18-2007, 05:42 PM
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That could be a reason however it sounds to me more like the "anemic" sound described when using a typical receiver versus a real amplifier. The Veritas are a flagship product and were not designed to run with subpar equipment.

I would agree that the veritas is a more accurate transducer but Im not sure that the harmonic distortion is signifcantly different especially at normal volume levels.

Then again Ive worked with the veritas more than the RC speakers. Anyone else can comment on the "added" low-end on these.
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post #1096 of 52519 Old 03-18-2007, 06:30 PM
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I have both, both can be driven fine with a good receiver at normal volumes.

More expensive equipment can buy you a lower noise floor and better dynamics at higher volumes and slightly more control of the drivers at higher volumes.

I didn't think either was the issue here though because of the comparison using the same amplification. The Reference Series are not as accurate as the Veritas, especially in the bass, you can hear the difference when both are playing.

I use an RC-LCR as a center channel for its better size fit in the space I have and better midrange compared to the 2.0c, especially off axis, and the strange behavior in the bass because of the tapered crossover difference between the left and right woofer in the Veritas center. But when I play music full range (I usually use the subwoofer crossed over at 80 Hertz) the RC-LCR is noticeably less tight in the bass and has higher harmonic distortion in comparison to my 2.3s. I really hear it clearly on piano or cello sonatas where I know exactly what it should sound like since I hear both instruments live from my wife and her cellist friend. These speakers have the same woofers as the 2.2 and rc-10 respectively.

The RCs are pretty good and you wouldn't really notice that they are not as good until you hear them trying to play the same stuff the 2.3s are playing and notice the less clearly defined sound. When I use a standard THX spec 4th order crossover at 80 Hertz you hear no difference in the bass between the RC and the Veritas because both are out of the picture very fast below the crossover frequency and neither has audible distortion above it.
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post #1097 of 52519 Old 03-19-2007, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

V2.3: Get a subwoofer because ported speakers distort a lot below their optimal frequency (about 80 hertz on the 2.3is)..

Thanks for your insight! What subwoofer you recommend (I have Exposure 3010 and Marantz PM15 both equally capable of driving V2.3i)?? Both are 2 channel stereo Ampl only no subwoofer outlet. Anyway the V2.3i already I am happy with the bass. somehow I feel for small room speaker with front port always goes lower (same audition with DynaAudio Audience 72 (front Port) vs Focal (back port).
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post #1098 of 52519 Old 03-19-2007, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Thanks for your insight! What subwoofer you recommend (I have Exposure 3010 and Marantz PM15 both equally capable of driving V2.3i)?? Both are 2 channel stereo Ampl only no subwoofer outlet. Anyway the V2.3i already I am happy with the bass. somehow I feel for small room speaker with front port always goes lower (same audition with DynaAudio Audience 72 (front Port) vs Focal (back port).

If you have a separate preamp and amp you can use a crossover for the sub. Outlaw Audio has a good one made for HT setups. If music is your primary consideration and size is an issue go with a Velodyne DD or a used HGS model if you want to keep the cost down. There are others but for small and very good ones no one else can touch them. The newest models from Sunfire aren't bad but Velodyne is better for the price and has lower distortion. Paradigm isn't bad but Velodyne has much lower distortion. SVS is good but the boxes are really big, most of the others that are as good as the Veritas speakers and that are under $2000 are big.
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post #1099 of 52519 Old 03-19-2007, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

The Reference Series are not as accurate as the Veritas, especially in the bass, you can hear the difference when both are playing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

The RCs are pretty good and you wouldn't really notice that they are not as good until you hear them trying to play the same stuff the 2.3s are playing and notice the less clearly defined sound.

have you used the floorstanding RC-Series models (ie. RC-30's, RC-50's, RC-70's)? The RC-30's seem to interpret bass sources very well. I listen to jazz mostly, and most acoustic bass passages come across very authentically. Although I know the Veritas are more detailed and refined overall (hi's and mid's especially), and I would expect so for essentially double the price.

I use NAD C272 amps to drive my RC-Series.
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post #1100 of 52519 Old 03-20-2007, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

when I play music full range (I usually use the subwoofer crossed over at 80 Hertz) the RC-LCR is noticeably less tight in the bass and has higher harmonic distortion in comparison to my 2.3s

Are you referring to full-range multi-channel music sources here (using RC-LCR as center)? Or are you referring to stereo sources (using RC-LCR's as fronts)?
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post #1101 of 52519 Old 03-20-2007, 09:22 AM
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Hi,

I have a pair of old Energy 22.2 speakers that I'm using for my main left and right speakers. I'm now looking for a powered sub to augment them slightly.

I'm looking for a tight and punchy sub, no woofing, with of course adjustable gain and crossover settings. I also need a sub that is forward facing (not to the floor) and where the gain and crossover controls are on a seperate box (the sub will be flush with an artificial wall.......in a basement).

If you have a similiar setup and you're very happy with the results, I'd love to hear from you. I'm also looking for any websites that offer good prices on such a sub.......preferably in Canada for warranty/shipping reasons.

Thanks.
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post #1102 of 52519 Old 03-20-2007, 02:05 PM
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Quote:


Are you referring to full-range multi-channel music sources here (using RC-LCR as center)? Or are you referring to stereo sources (using RC-LCR's as fronts)?

I have one as a center channel which is how I use it in a 5.1 systems, but when evaluating it I did try it as my right and my left speaker in stereo mode with a mono signal sent to both channels to compare it directly to the 2.3s. I switched it from right to left and back to make sure any conclusions were not a result of positioning versus the speakers. This was to find out how low I could go before the differences between the two were readily apparent. RC-LCR is good, but not much below 80 without a lot of harmonic distortion and not much below 60 before the output tailspins (it is down 10 db in my room at 50 and the drop off gets steeper from there). Whenever someone says a speaker or a subwoofer sounds richer or fuller in the bass and extension is similar or inferior to the less rich sounding one it usually means they are talking about harmonic distortion not richer or fuller bass. It can be mechanical from the speaker drivers, housing and cabinets and from room interactions and other speakers in the room.

The 2.3 has the same distortion issue below 80 but at a higher output level and not any where near as severe. I have the luxury to be able to compare speakers to the piano or a friends cello directly, this makes distortion stand out and less subjective. Good headphones make a great proxy though.

I have some Sennheiser HD-580s that have very low distortion right down to 20 hertz and lower (no speaker can come close to good headphones for distortion, especially with low bass if you don't mind the band in your head sensation). No room interaction issues, no relatively heavy mass trying to reproduce a sound wave.
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post #1103 of 52519 Old 03-21-2007, 12:11 AM
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Interesting stuff, thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

RC-LCR is good, but not much below 80 without a lot of harmonic distortion and not much below 60 before the output tailspins.

yeah, I would'nt rely on RC-LCR's bass extension within that region, Energy spec's show:
Frequency response: 48Hz-23000Hz +/- 3dB
Usable Bass Response: -10dB Anechoic @ 42Hz
http://www.energy-speakers.com/v2/pr...ecs.php?id=270
Rather, I would use a good subwoofer when using RC-LCR's as FRONT's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

Whenever someone says a speaker or a subwoofer sounds richer or fuller in the bass and extension is similar or inferior to the less rich sounding one it usually means they are talking about harmonic distortion not richer or fuller bass. It can be mechanical from the speaker drivers, housing and cabinets and from room interactions and other speakers in the room.

Well it depends on the type, and/or size, of the speaker and it's components (drivers, etc.,...).

Of course a floorstanding model (RC-30's, RC-50's or RC-70's for example) would generate deeper (richer) bass due to the (intentionally designed) larger size cabinets, combined with their woofer drivers.
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post #1104 of 52519 Old 03-21-2007, 12:44 AM
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I'm about to make a jump on a Pair of RC-70s, RC-LCR, and 2 pairs of RC-Rs in my 19 x 15 room powered by a Marantz SR9600. I heard this would be quite good . To top it all off, A Mitsubishi HC-5000 projector on a 120" 16:9 screen. I can't wait!

My Theater
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post #1105 of 52519 Old 03-21-2007, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliemotts View Post

Hi,

I have a pair of old Energy 22.2 speakers that I'm using for my main left and right speakers. I'm now looking for a powered sub to augment them slightly.

I'm looking for a tight and punchy sub, no woofing, with of course adjustable gain and crossover settings. I also need a sub that is forward facing (not to the floor) and where the gain and crossover controls are on a seperate box (the sub will be flush with an artificial wall.......in a basement).

I haven't really seen any box subs with a separate box for adjustments.

I'd look for a sealed sub. SVS has a newish sealed sub (SB12) that is available in Canada from sonicboomaudio.com but the adjustments are on the back.

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post #1106 of 52519 Old 03-21-2007, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliemotts View Post

Hi,

I have a pair of old Energy 22.2 speakers that I'm using for my main left and right speakers. I'm now looking for a powered sub to augment them slightly.

I'm looking for a tight and punchy sub, no woofing, with of course adjustable gain and crossover settings. I also need a sub that is forward facing (not to the floor) and where the gain and crossover controls are on a seperate box (the sub will be flush with an artificial wall.......in a basement).

If you have a similiar setup and you're very happy with the results, I'd love to hear from you. I'm also looking for any websites that offer good prices on such a sub.......preferably in Canada for warranty/shipping reasons.

Thanks.

For a sub with an outboard controller, here is a short list of units that come to mind ranging from used to new:

Used NHT SW2P - passive 10" sub with outboard amplifier/crossover
Used NHT SW3P - passive 12" sub with outboard amplifier/crossover
Used NHT SubOne 10" or SubOne i 12"- internal amplifier with outboard controller
Used NHT SubTwo dual-10" or SubTwo i dual 12" - internal amp w/outboard controller

Current NHT U1- single box dual 12" with outboard amplifier and separate electronic crossover. http://nhthifi.com/2006/products/ht/u1.html
Current NHT U2 - two box/each housing a single 12" with outboard amp and separate electronic crossover. http://nhthifi.com/2006/products/ht/u2.html
Current Velodyne SubContractor Series - Your choice of a passive 8" to a 15" (models SC-8, SC-10, SC-12, and SC-15) purcahsed along with the SC-1250 amplifier/controller which also includes their 7-band automatic room EQ. http://www.velodyne.com/velodyne/sc_banner_click.html

As for a place in Canada, I can't help you there, but I hope these product offerings get you going in the right direction.

"What's better? A great 2D movie or the worst 3D movie?" - Stephen Colbert
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post #1107 of 52519 Old 03-21-2007, 12:49 PM
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Of course a floorstanding model (RC-30's, RC-50's or RC-70's for example) would generate deeper (richer) bass due to the (intentionally designed) larger size cabinets, combined with their woofer drivers.

I was only talking about speakers with the same or similar extension at the same volume. In this case it is usually harmonic distortion. The case you are talking about is a speaker with better output and bass extension capabilities.

It all started with the comparison of the RC-10 against a Veritas 2.2i. In this case fuller and richer for the RC-10 is harmonic distortion that is higher in the RC-10. Same goes for a Veritas 2.3i versus an RC-70 or any of the RC line. But it doesn't really matter much if a good subwoofer is used. These hopefully should have distortion in the low single digits between 30 and 100 hertz or so and maybe distortion in the single digits below 30 if it is good and gets down to 20 or so.

Even more important than low inherent distortion in a sub (hopefully a given for a good one) is the placement flexibility to deal with room and main speaker interaction effectively. Running your mains full range in anything other than a very large room with low sound reflectivity tends to be problematic.
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post #1108 of 52519 Old 03-21-2007, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

I was only talking about speakers with the same or similar extension at the same volume.

exactly........
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post #1109 of 52519 Old 03-25-2007, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by yourlilbro View Post

I'm about to make a jump on a Pair of RC-70s, RC-LCR, and 2 pairs of RC-Rs in my 19 x 15 room powered by a Marantz SR9600. I heard this would be quite good . To top it all off, A Mitsubishi HC-5000 projector on a 120" 16:9 screen. I can't wait!

Beautiful image, sweet sound. Give us the full report.

Joe Clark

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post #1110 of 52519 Old 03-25-2007, 02:30 AM
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No problem!
Once we get it done (around mid-year) I'll give a full report.

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