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post #1561 of 52199 Old 07-01-2007, 01:37 PM
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I hear you dp, I do. And normal sony speakers are pretty trash. these were actually kind of a project speaker for Sony. they started out retail at $800/pair but cost more than that to produce. They didnt sell worth anything here in the states so they mothballed them, and they went to costco for $100 a side. Are they thiels? Obviously not, but they are some of the best $400/side speakers Ive heard. They weigh in over 50 lbs a piece. Reason why Im getting Energy you may ask? Because I watch a ton of movies and there are no matching speakers to the fronts. I have an AC300 right now and I love it, beautiful clarity in voices but they wont match the c-9's, which is why Im looking for the c-c3 as well.
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post #1562 of 52199 Old 07-01-2007, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by warpdrive View Post

For those of us in Canada, Futureshop always gives a minimum of 25% off in their online "friends and family" type sales. There is one right now for ALL speakers for the holiday weekend including Energy speakers. That does set the bar higher for other Energy dealers not used to discounting that much. And you have the benefit of returning them wthin 30 days (something most other retailers don't offer) if you don't like 'em


I guess this shoots down any theory of strict pricing by Energy on their speakers! 25% off is a very good deal. To bad I currently can't take advantage of this offer. However, these types of sales are held routinely and IMO from time to time even better saving can be had. So stay tunned, if you can wait!

Cheers, Billy p

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post #1563 of 52199 Old 07-01-2007, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

I guess this shoots down any theory of strict pricing by Energy on their speakers! 25% off is a very good deal. To bad I currently can't take advantage of this offer. However, these types of sales are held routinely and IMO from time to time even better saving can be had. So stay tunned, if you can wait!

Cheers, Billy p

Another benefit of Future Shop is that there are a lot of people selling gift cards out there, for anywhere from 7%-15% (I buy at 10%) off the face value. On a $1000 expense (1130 after sales tax), that's another $113 off, which isn't pocket change by any means.

Of course, make friends with/become staff and you get even better deals! (Hint: Seasonal temps get access the staff purchase discount instantly during Xmas season)

I went to Lansdowne FS to listen to the C-500 and the RC-30 (plugged ipod with dock lineout into Yamaha 6040). First impression: wow the RC-30 is small...

Found that the treble on the RC-30 was far more recessed compared to the C-500 - however, it sounded bright to the point that it was almost harsh on the C-500

Vocals sounded a bit smoother, and bass response was a lot better on the RC-30 though. Also tried with and without the Energy 10.3 - I think I would be 100% OK with the RC-30 without a sub with the music I have.

Argh. Decisions. I still like ass?
:\\
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post #1564 of 52199 Old 07-01-2007, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by crimsona View Post

Another benefit of Future Shop is that there are a lot of people selling gift cards out there, for anywhere from 7%-15% (I buy at 10%) off the face value. On a $1000 expense (1130 after sales tax), that's another $113 off, which isn't pocket change by any means.

Of course, make friends with/become staff and you get even better deals! (Hint: Seasonal temps get access the staff purchase discount instantly during Xmas season)

I went to Lansdowne FS to listen to the C-500 and the RC-30 (plugged ipod with dock lineout into Yamaha 6040). First impression: wow the RC-30 is small...

Found that the treble on the RC-30 was far more recessed compared to the C-500 - however, it sounded bright to the point that it was almost harsh on the C-500

Vocals sounded a bit smoother, and ass response was a lot better on the RC-30 though. Also tried with and without the Energy 10.3 - I think I would be 100% OK with the RC-30 without a sub with the music I have.

Argh. Decisions.


There's is no doubt between RC's and the C's when it come to SQ . Albeit speaking for myself, I'd get the 10's and the s12 sub(or better) because my H/T room(when my home is finished) will be 21'x14'. IMO it's a better transition for the 10's to become surround speakers then wasting the 30's in that application. Sooner or later you will either upgrade to 5.1 or 7.1 and the 10's are more flexible and a less expensive option!

Good luck in your decision whichever way you go, Billy p!!

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post #1565 of 52199 Old 07-01-2007, 05:57 PM
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wow the RC-30 is small

yep, just right, in-between sized floor-stander. Has big, clean, sound. You really have to listen in your own space at home, you'll be happy.

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I think I would be 100% OK with the RC-30 without a sub with the music I have.

exactly right, just look at the specs (useable bass response) on Energy web-site:
http://www.energy-speakers.com/v2/pr...ecs.php?id=268
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post #1566 of 52199 Old 07-01-2007, 09:54 PM
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Owners of Energy RC-LCR , how do you rate the performance of this center to the likes of Mirage OM C2, B&W HTM, Paradigm Studio, NHT M6 and etc? Are happy with it or do you find it to be the weakest link in the chain?

I want to hear opinions from people who don't have a dog in the fight.
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post #1567 of 52199 Old 07-01-2007, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex solomon View Post

Owners of Energy RC-LCR , how do you rate the performance of this center to the likes of Mirage OM C2, B&W HTM, Paradigm Studio, NHT M6 and etc? Are happy with it or do you find it to be the weakest link in the chain?

Really hard to say without a direct A/B comparison. I did listen to lots of speakers before buying the Energy's, including B&W, Paradigm Studio, and NHT. I liked the Energy RC-LCR's as well as or better than any of them. Again, though, I couldn't do a direct A/B, because they were all in different settings, with different receivers, amps. Since putting them in, though, I have yet to feel like I made a mistake. The RC-LCR is a great sounding speaker.

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post #1568 of 52199 Old 07-01-2007, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex solomon View Post

Owners of Energy RC-LCR , how do you rate the performance of this center to the likes of Mirage OM C2, B&W HTM, Paradigm Studio, NHT M6 and etc? Are happy with it or do you find it to be the weakest link in the chain?

I can't do a comparison for you, but I can say that the LCR is certainly not the weak link... if anything, it's the highlight. Positively brilliant speaker with an astounding dispersion field.
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post #1569 of 52199 Old 07-01-2007, 11:41 PM
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Are happy with it or do you find it to be the weakest link in the chain?

very, very happy with the RC-LCR. Probably the strongest link in the RC-Series line.
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post #1570 of 52199 Old 07-02-2007, 05:35 AM
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Billy P:

Actually the present futureshop sale does NOT shoot down any strict pricing theory...well it might if you consider strict pricing agreements as meaning only one price (or extremely small discounts off) would ever be available. However, that's not what pricing agreements do. Rather, the agreements set a bottom or floor for the pricing, which means that FS won't be able to sell (the new and perfect condition product) below that floor without violating the agreement.

Their was recently a decision by the United States Supreme Court upholding these types of agreements: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=867852

So basically FS CAN discount but only to a certain extent...and fyi the current price at FS isn't anything so great, I didn't pay much more for my speakers when I got them back in April, and in fact when you factor in the fact that I got even better discounts on my receiver, centre channel and wire, I probably paid less than the speakers are presently selling for at FS.
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post #1571 of 52199 Old 07-02-2007, 05:55 AM
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Actually the current FS sale really isn't anything special at all. For example, the 25% off sale price on the C-R100's is the same as I paid for my C-R100's 2 or 3 years ago. The 8" energy subwoofer is a minimal amount less than I paid for my Mirage 8" like 7 years ago. The price on the C-C100 is a minimal amount less than I paid 2-3 years ago; the C-C50 is a little bit more and the price on the RC-LCR is also a little bit more.

Basically, some of these "sale" prices are the everyday prices at dealers...so one could probably get them for even less.
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post #1572 of 52199 Old 07-02-2007, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by SMS1977 View Post

So basically FS CAN discount but only to a certain extent...and fyi the current price at FS isn't anything so great, I didn't pay much more for my speakers when I got them back in April, and in fact when you factor in the fact that I got even better discounts on my receiver, centre channel and wire, I probably paid less than the speakers are presently selling for at FS.

The point is, FS is setting the water mark, some dealers didn't discount every model to 25% like FS is doing now. I know some dealers that considered 20% a pretty generous discount so it's no universal across all dealers. So basically for many dealers 25% is the minimum they need to discount from now on if you want to compete on price alone.

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post #1573 of 52199 Old 07-02-2007, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by SMS1977 View Post

Billy P:

Actually the present futureshop sale does NOT shoot down any strict pricing theory...well it might if you consider strict pricing agreements as meaning only one price (or extremely small discounts off) would ever be available. However, that's not what pricing agreements do. Rather, the agreements set a bottom or floor for the pricing, which means that FS won't be able to sell (the new and perfect condition product) below that floor without violating the agreement.

Their was recently a decision by the United States Supreme Court upholding these types of agreements: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=867852

So basically FS CAN discount but only to a certain extent...and fyi the current price at FS isn't anything so great, I didn't pay much more for my speakers when I got them back in April, and in fact when you factor in the fact that I got even better discounts on my receiver, centre channel and wire, I probably paid less than the speakers are presently selling for at FS.


Listen up I've used local hifi shops for some of my purchases and I agree they provide a great service to the community. However, you seem to have a problem with this and can't seen to acknowledge that setting the BAR will only benefit everyone. It's only a matter of time before Best Buy opens up shop here with their MAGNOLIA FRANCHISE and bring us even more to look foward too!
PS: I bet you got a good deal on the wire and centre channel.
Good Luck with all your other purchases, as well

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post #1574 of 52199 Old 07-02-2007, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

Listen up I've used local hifi shops for some of my purchases and I agree they provide a great service to the community. However, you seem to have a problem with this and can't seen to acknowledge that setting the BAR will only benefit everyone. It's only a matter of time before Best Buy opens up shop here with their MAGNOLIA FRANCHISE and bring us even more to look foward too!
PS: I bet you got a good deal on the wire and centre channel.
Good Luck with all your other purchases, as well

Magnolia's not in the cards for the next 2 years, quite sure. Haven't really looked beyond that.
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post #1575 of 52199 Old 07-02-2007, 08:13 AM
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Magnolia's not in the cards for the next 2 years, quite sure. Haven't really looked beyond that.

it appears, you have an inside track . I heard rumors that BB would be opening a franchise out west for later this year or early next year. Regardless, I will look forward to that opportunity when it comes and from my understanding they carry some very hi end components & speakers.

Thanks for the heads up, Billy p

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post #1576 of 52199 Old 07-02-2007, 09:36 AM
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it appears, you have an inside track . I heard rumors that BB would be opening a franchise out west for later this year or early next year. Regardless, I will look forward to that opportunity when it comes and from my understanding they carry some very hi end components & speakers.

Thanks for the heads up, Billy p

I am not 100%, I am just a very low-key individual. Future Shop already owns Howell Installations for custom outfits in Ontario, the link is right there on the FS website. I'm sure they carry or can get some very high-end gear as installations run way up into the stratosphere in terms of cost.
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post #1577 of 52199 Old 07-02-2007, 10:00 AM
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Billy P:

Oh I understand completely where you are coming from....its a very Wal-mart mentality. Wal-mart is great for everyday items, problem is that they put other small retailers out of business. While this isn't a problem when it comes to toothpaste, etc., when you are talking Hi-Fi it CAN/WILL be a problem.

Hi-Fi stores make a lot of their money on the lower end stuff, like speakers and cheaper receivers (they only sell something like a NAD Masters series kit a few times a year). So if a place like futureshop comes in and starts undercutting/setting the BAR lower, its going to cut into the profits of the Hi-Fi shops and will likely put a number out of business. Now if someone is buying the crap receivers that FS sells he/she won't care, but to those who don't buy mass-market stuff will. It will be harder to find, fewer retailers and LESS competition!

In addition, when you consider that you are NOT saving that much by buying from FS (when I consider how much I saved on my Receiver/Centre/Mains/Wire, I got a waaaay better deal than that offer buy FS).

So to save a couple hundred bucks on ONE or TWO items just isn't worth it to me.
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post #1578 of 52199 Old 07-02-2007, 10:12 AM
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from my understanding they carry some very hi end components & speakers.

I am confused about this. Here, down below, BestBuy is well.....just awful (IMHO). Anyone who knows audio, and video for that matter, would steer clear of BB. Very inflated pricing......UNknowledgeable salespeople.....and for the most part lower to mid end components. I have been to multiple outlets and maybe only a handful of sales staff, at best, that actually know what the heck are talking about. Really....Other than Denon....Yamaha...and possibly Onkyo...I have never seen any high end products....We used to have a chain.....GoodGuys.....they were awesome, and carried lots of great stuff.

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I am confused about this. Here, down below, BestBuy is well.....just awful (IMHO). Anyone who knows audio, and video for that matter, would steer clear of BB. Very inflated pricing......UNknowledgeable salespeople.....and for the most part lower to mid end components. I have been to multiple outlets and maybe only a handful of sales staff, at best, that actually know what the heck are talking about. Really....Other than Denon....Yamaha...and possibly Onkyo...I have never seen any high end products....We used to have a chain.....GoodGuys.....they were awesome, and carried lots of great stuff.

I miss the good guys! They kicked ass while they were around! Maybe I'm biased for having had worked for them but still its hard to argue that they didn't carry great products such as Energy, JMLab, Boston, Denon, Yamaha, Parasound, etc etc as well as lower tier products for the mass market.

They had just started to carry the Energy RC line right at the time they were bought by CompUSA. I guess I don't get it, they bought them to simply close them down.. I didn't even see CompUSA as being one of their main competitors (goods guys was on and off on PC's anyways). Yes, I have a grudge against CompUSA now
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post #1580 of 52199 Old 07-02-2007, 10:28 AM
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Future shop is nothing like Walmart! Have you waded through the audio/video section at your local Walmart, slim picking to say the least. The thread you attached a link to was a good read(must of missed it), BUT gave arguments to both sides in theory . Needless to say, I don't shop at Walmart(if at all possible) and I am sure you don't buy everything from speciality shops, either? IMO both can coexist and benefit, their respective customers or marketplace.

Take care and enjoy the rest of the long weekend, BP

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post #1581 of 52199 Old 07-02-2007, 10:38 AM
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Yes, I have a grudge against CompUSA now

Ha ha. Yeah, Comp USA...Circut City, BB.....wow...just awful.

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post #1582 of 52199 Old 07-02-2007, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Bobcel View Post

I am confused about this. Here, down below, BestBuy is well.....just awful (IMHO). Anyone who knows audio, and video for that matter, would steer clear of BB. Very inflated pricing......UNknowledgeable salespeople.....and for the most part lower to mid end components. I have been to multiple outlets and maybe only a handful of sales staff, at best, that actually know what the heck are talking about. Really....Other than Denon....Yamaha...and possibly Onkyo...I have never seen any high end products....We used to have a chain.....GoodGuys.....they were awesome, and carried lots of great stuff.


wasn't really talking about BB, but rather Magonlia in a earlier post. Are you guy's saying that Magonlia merchandise isn't an improvement over that of BB?

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post #1583 of 52199 Old 07-02-2007, 10:49 AM
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One big difference is that there is little to no competition from the mail/internet order side. If you want a big LCD, you either go specialty local or big-box. Sites like Audioexcellence, SVS/HSU just don't exist up here, while Amazon.ca only deals in small items. Inflated prices or not, there just isn't a lot of alternatives. And for large purchases (physical size) like these, few people are willing to deal through the US due to extremely expensive shipping, brokerage fees and whatnot.

For example, Westinghouse is pretty much only carried by Best Buy up here. If you want a Westy, you buy at Best Buy, and warranty is handled through them as well.

Best Buy owns two brands up here, with Future Shop targeting higher end consumers and Best Buy targeting lower end, families. This is reflected in what is carried - if you want the largest screens and/or Energy products, only Future Shop will carry them.

Don't really see this changing much soon honestly...
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post #1584 of 52199 Old 07-02-2007, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by crimsona View Post

One big difference is that there is little to no competition from the mail/internet order side. If you want a big LCD, you either go specialty local or big-box. Sites like Audioexcellence, SVS/HSU just don't exist up here, while Amazon.ca only deals in small items. Inflated prices or not, there just isn't a lot of alternatives. And for large purchases (physical size) like these, few people are willing to deal through the US due to extremely expensive shipping, brokerage fees and whatnot.

For example, Westinghouse is pretty much only carried by Best Buy up here. If you want a Westy, you buy at Best Buy, and warranty is handled through them as well.

Best Buy owns two brands up here, with Future Shop targeting higher end consumers and Best Buy targeting lower end, families. This is reflected in what is carried - if you want the largest screens and/or Energy products, only Future Shop will carry them.

Don't really see this changing much soon honestly...

You're 100% right! What happened to free trade? Audioexcellence has some veritas 2.2i and 2.3i listing for 50% less then what they sell for here! I often check out links provided by members from 1CALL, vanns and frys just to name a few and each time I cry the blues.

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post #1585 of 52199 Old 07-02-2007, 11:17 AM
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You're 100% right! What happened to free trade? Audioexcellence has some veritas 2.2i and 2.3i listing for 50% less then what they sell for here! I often check out links provided by members from 1CALL, vanns and frys just to name a few and each time I cry the blues.

Oh, free trade is alive and well. But all free trade means is no ADDITIONAL duty/tax will be charged on top of sales taxes - I have to pay 6% duty on top of sales taxes for Honda Fit parts.

The problem is that shipping companies are a pain in the bum, overcharge for crossing the border, and then ream once more to clear customs "for you".

That, and the warranty thing, where you might get reamed yet again getting the RMA'ed item back...
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post #1586 of 52199 Old 07-02-2007, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by SMS1977 View Post

Billy P:

Actually the present futureshop sale does NOT shoot down any strict pricing theory...well it might if you consider strict pricing agreements as meaning only one price (or extremely small discounts off) would ever be available. However, that's not what pricing agreements do. Rather, the agreements set a bottom or floor for the pricing, which means that FS won't be able to sell (the new and perfect condition product) below that floor without violating the agreement.

Their was recently a decision by the United States Supreme Court upholding these types of agreements: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=867852

So basically FS CAN discount but only to a certain extent...and fyi the current price at FS isn't anything so great, I didn't pay much more for my speakers when I got them back in April, and in fact when you factor in the fact that I got even better discounts on my receiver, centre channel and wire, I probably paid less than the speakers are presently selling for at FS.

1) FS is a Canadian retailer. The decision of the US Supreme Court doesn't apply in Canada. FS maybe owned by BB US but it Canadian operations are governed by CDN laws & courts.

2) What you described above is essentially price fixing, which is illegal in many countries.

Manufacturers can dictate to their dealers the number of required staff trained on the products and the training level, the product lines carried, the type and level of services offered, and the $ value sold per year to qualify as an authorized dealer. The mfg and the dealers can participate in joint advertising programs if the dealers agree to not advertise the product price below the Minimum Advertised Price (MAP).

Other than the above, the mfg sell their products to the dealers for a certain price. The dealers decide the price to sell to the public based on what they need to be profitable. MFG can use the Mfg Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) to influence pricing somewhat but that is only a suggested price. Any thing more than that is price fixing and is illegal.

The bottom price that a dealer can sell for is effectively the price that they purchased the product for from the mfg. The exception is when the product is on close-out sales where any price is acceptable in order to clear the product.

3) Energy is a good speaker brand but it is neither a super high end brand nor a mass merchandiser. It doesn't have a lot of clout with many retailers, who can always sell the competition's products. It cetainly doesn't have enough clout to force a reatiler the size of BB CDN or FS to do anything at all.

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You can't understand something until you can measure it with numbers.
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post #1587 of 52199 Old 07-03-2007, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by warpdrive View Post

The point is, FS is setting the water mark, some dealers didn't discount every model to 25% like FS is doing now. I know some dealers that considered 20% a pretty generous discount so it's no universal across all dealers. So basically for many dealers 25% is the minimum they need to discount from now on if you want to compete on price alone.

Warpdrive:

I agree that 25% is a good discount, but I disagree that FS is setting some kind of watermark because they give a 25% discount on a 2-3 day sale...how is it any different than what other retailers do when they have sales. I agree it would be a watermark if the 25% discount was their everyday price....but it isn't...so how is it different?
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post #1588 of 52199 Old 07-03-2007, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

Future shop is nothing like Walmart! Have you waded through the audio/video section at your local Walmart, slim picking to say the least. The thread you attached a link to was a good read(must of missed it), BUT gave arguments to both sides in theory . Needless to say, I don't shop at Walmart(if at all possible) and I am sure you don't buy everything from speciality shops, either? IMO both can coexist and benefit, their respective customers or marketplace.

Take care and enjoy the rest of the long weekend, BP

Billy P:

A couple of things:

1) I wasn't comparing FS to Walmart in terms of the goods they sell, I was comparing them based on the Big Box mentality (buy in quantity to get a lower price and then undersell your competitors and put a bunch of them out of business). Now with respect to the RC speakers at FS this will only hold true if FS actually gives a lower everyday price...the RC-30's are back up to $1350.

2) You are quite right I don't buy everything from specialty shops...buy I buy from specialty shops whenever possible. More to the point I was talking about specialty shops...I was talking about locally owned shops (ie Walmart sells pop for less than the mom and pop corner store and eventually puts the corner store out of business);

3) tell me what the great benefit of FS is if you can get the same product at a locally owned store for around the same price...you theory of FS benefitting the consumer is based on the notion that FS will eventually be selling something like the RC-30's for $800-1000. There are 2 problems with your "theory" (a) FS doesn't sell them for that price...so why not buy them from a locally owned store (ie the everday price at the "speciality shop" that I go to is $1250 or $1300, which is $50-100 cheaper than FS); and, (b) if FS does eventually sell them for $800-1000, how or what benefit does that convey to the locally owned shop or its customers?
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post #1589 of 52199 Old 07-03-2007, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by SMS1977 View Post

Warpdrive:

I agree that 25% is a good discount, but I disagree that FS is setting some kind of watermark because they give a 25% discount on a 2-3 day sale...how is it any different than what other retailers do when they have sales. I agree it would be a watermark if the 25% discount was their everyday price....but it isn't...so how is it different?

FS has these sales pretty much every month so the dealers have to compete with that fact. I've never seen Energy speakers discounted across the board except on Boxing day at these smaller retailers, and so FS is indeed putting on extra price pressure on these retailers

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post #1590 of 52199 Old 07-03-2007, 03:44 PM
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Eecubed:

1) I had attached that link to the US case for the discussion re the case. I know decisions of the US Supreme Court aren't binding in Canada...but they can be and have been persuasive (eg Zubulake re e-discovery and Central Hudson Gas re the Oakes test to name a couple);

2) there is a difference between something being "essentially price fixing" and not. THe difference between a valid restrictive covenant and a restraint of trade can be a matter of one sentence or a couple of words. For example, what if company A had an agreement with company B that in substance said (a) here is the MSRP (b) you can sell them for whatever you want, but you cannot sell them for less than $900 and if you wish to do so company A has the right to buy the speakers back for the price paid or $900...would that be price fixing? What if company A said to company B - if you sell it for less than $900 you'll we won't sell you anymore product?
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