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post #17821 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by generalhead View Post

improvement compared to what?

I was running them on an onkyo 806 for testing.
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post #17822 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 09:09 AM
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My new cb5 centers. This is my bedroom setup.

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post #17823 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

...I took down my RC-Mini surrounds and have been re-listening to them in A/B vs my RC-10's.

Batpig, can you describe the sound of the RC-10's versus the RC-Mini's? How much better is the performance?
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post #17824 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by generalhead View Post

improvement compared to what?

Overall SQ.
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post #17825 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 09:23 AM
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Subiefast has me wondering, since I can't find a Rosenut RC-LCR can I run two RC-Mini in a horizontal orientation as my center?

Batpig, since you have the RC-LCR and also the RC-Mini's can you do a comparison for me? I am wondering if I should bite the bullet and purchase a Black RC-LCR or hold out hope for one in Rosenut.

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post #17826 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

If you can afford the extra, get the RC-Mini CC -- it is a little better than the regular RC-Mini as it is slightly fuller, slightly better bass extension, and it is intended to operate in the horizontal orientation. It's more than just the dual woofer, it has a lot more cabinet volume and will definitely sound a bit fuller through the mid-bass (above the crossover) so will be more natural for dialogue. It will also be a better match for the RC-10 if you eventually upgrade, because of the above.

That being said, the difference is slight so if you go with 3 x RC-Mini it won't be bad. I am currently sans-TV as mine is in the shop, and I have been fooling around with my speakers. I took down my RC-Mini surrounds and have been re-listening to them in A/B vs my RC-10's, and as an experiment I tried placing the Mini's horizontally. I felt like there was maybe a slight loss of "openness" or "imaging" -- what you would expect given the change in dispersion of 90-degrees -- but the difference was very minor and I think it would be very difficult to pick out the difference in a blind test. So if you end up with a horizontal Mini as CC, it won't be the worst thing.

Thanks for your opinion, batpig! If I were to use a standard mini as a center, it would definitely be placed vertically like the others, so that's not so much of an issue. But I can appreciate the extra volume and the sound fullness sounds great, so I'm guessing the Mini CC will be the way I go.

I'm also picking up a Denon receiver, so I will definitely be following your guide, too. Thanks for all you add to the HT community.

Michael
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post #17827 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hung8489 View Post

Subiefast has me wondering, since I can't find a Rosenut RC-LCR can I run two RC-Mini in a horizontal orientation as my center?

I'm not sure why you would do this instead of using the RC-Mini CC? If you are going to lay them side-by-side in a horizontal orientation, why not use the designed-to-be-horizontal Mini CC??


Quote:


Batpig, since you have the RC-LCR and also the RC-Mini's can you do a comparison for me? I am wondering if I should bite the bullet and purchase a Black RC-LCR or hold out hope for one in Rosenut.

The LCR and Mini CC (like all RC's) have the same tweeter and very similar tone. At moderate volumes, EQ'd by Audyssey with proper bass management, you probably wouldn't hear much difference.

The big advantages of the RC-LCR are (1) the dedicated midranges add an extra bit of smoothness, dialogue and music is simply more smooth/refined and natural sounding from the LCR (this is true over the RC-10 also!) and (2) the RC-LCR obviously has MUCH MORE bass capabilities.

Now, the bass is not just above below-100Hz stuff, the RC-Mini's are already dropping off at around 200Hz and a larger speaker will sound fuller and smoother through the mid-bass frequencies. The Mini will sound a bit "thinner". In my various experiments (e.g. RC-10 vs RC-Mini the past few days) I notice a big difference even with the crossover set to 150Hz!

However, as has been noted often, the RC-LCR (being big, powerful, and with prodigious bass) is really going to see advantages with (1) proper placement and (2) big volumes. At moderate volumes, the RC-Mini CC can actually be clearer with dialogue because of that lack of mid-bass, it makes the top-end more emphasized (relatively). With a big-ass center like the RC-LCR, if you stuff it into a shelf or near a wall all of those mid-bass frequencies can get "muddy", that's why you often hear people refer to the LCR as "chesty" with dialogue (although this is mitigated greatly by using port plugs and using an EQ program like Audyssey to tame the reflections).

Basically, the louder you want to listen, and the more room you have, the more you will appreciate the advantages of the RC-LCR. It really opens up with more power. You will never hear someone with a giant room, plenty of space to place the LCR, and who listens at big volumes complain about the "chesty" sound. I think for a typical apartment setting, listening at moderate volumes in a smallish living room, the RC-LCR probably isn't necessary and an RC-Mini CC or especially an RC-10 would be perfectly fine as a CC. When I compared them, at moderate volumes (with MultEQ + Dyn EQ engaged) there was barely any difference. But if you have a big space, room to place it properly, and want to listen loud, the RC-LCR is a dramatically better speaker.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ucsbjd View Post

Batpig, can you describe the sound of the RC-10's versus the RC-Mini's? How much better is the performance?

Basically the same as above, although the difference in the mid-bass is even more pronounced as the smaller RC-Mini bookshelf has even less bass than the RC-Mini CC. Like I said, I still notice a big difference when A/B'ing even with a 150Hz or even 200Hz crossover (remember that the crossover is not a "brick wall", it has a slope).

The tone/timbre is a nearly perfect match -- when the tweeters are at the same height (tweeter height makes a BIG difference!) the tonal quality is nearly identical, which you would expect given that they have the same tweeter. But when I switch from the Mini to the RC-10 all of a sudden I am hit with that warm, lush, full mid-bass and then when I switch back to the Mini it sounds "thin" in comparison.

As above, the differences become more dramatic the louder things get. The RC-10's just sound better and better the more you push them, but once things get crazy loud the smaller Mini's start to sound more strained and the "thinner" sound is more obvious.

Again, in a smallish room, properly EQ'd by a nice EQ system (especially with Dynamic EQ there to make things sound fuller) I think anyone would be perfectly happy with an RC-mini setup. But for 2-ch music the RC-10's just blow away the Mini's because of that mid-bass and ability to player louder, cleaner.

One thing to note is that the Mini's are much more efficient than the RC's. The older RC-Mini CC I had required about 6dB less volume than the RC-10's, and in my current A/B tests I have to trim down the Mini's about 4dB relative to the RC-10's to get them level matched.

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post #17828 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 10:51 AM
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Thanks batpig (this is getting redundent! )

Do you think the quality sub HSU STF-2 will help the RC-Mini setup, or is the "mid-bass" you refer to above the frequency response of the STF-2 (or any typical sub for that matter)?

Sounds like for smaller rooms at reasonable volume the difference won't be exceedingly large.
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post #17829 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 10:54 AM
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Quote:


Do you think the quality sub HSU STF-2 will help the RC-Mini setup, or is the "mid-bass" you refer to above the frequency response of the STF-2 (or any typical sub for that matter)?

the difference will be obvious regardless of the subwoofer. However, in a moderately sized room, properly blended with a good EQ program, the difference will not be dramatic unless you had them side-by-side to A/B test.

Quote:


Sounds like for smaller rooms at reasonable volume the difference won't be exceedingly large.

correct.

the bigger the room, the louder you listen, and the more "critical" you are of 2-ch music performance, the more you will appreciate the advantages of the larger speaker. I'm sure the same is true of, say, the RC-10 versus a tower like the RC-50/70. The RC-10 is a good sweet spot for me....

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post #17830 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 11:18 AM
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Thanks Batpig. I considered the RC Mini CC but I am going to adding it to my two RC-70's and I was afraid the Mini CC would not be enough for the center. I was hoping the two Mini's used as a center would be a middle ground between the RC-LCR and the RC Mini CC.

I am running through these options because I can not find a Rosenut RC-LCR. If someone has a Rosenut RC-LCR they would like to trade for a black one I could try that way. In the end I may have to just purchase the RC-LCR in black ash.

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post #17831 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subiefast View Post

My new cb5 centers. This is my bedroom setup.


Subie - any A/B comparos of CB-5 vs CB-10? How are your general impressions of the "new" C's these days?

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post #17832 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psv76 View Post

Batpig, menasor et al,

Thank you all for your wonderful suggestions and feedback. I got my 3 RC-10's couple of weeks ago and setup as the fronts and the RC-mini's for the surround. Everything looks good although I have a concern. I do not hear any sound from my surrounds unless I pump up the volume too high. I even tried different sound formats. I am running the speakers with the Pio VSX-21THX. I ran the AUTO MCACC and speakers set to small. I have the ESW-V8 sub.
Here are some nos from the setup.
L -0.5dB
C -2.0
R -1.0
SR -4.5
SL -2.5
SW -8.5 (all minus)
My sub is set at 80hz crossover. i posted this Q on the MCACC forum but no response. I will post on the Pio thread next. Any help or pointers would help.
Thanks.


Hey PSV. Congrats on your setup and you're welcome. What kind of movies are you playing when testing the sound of the surrounds. Depending on the movie or tv show, the sound could be very soft if it's a bad mix. I think the MCACC calibration set the db level of your surrounds even with your fronts, so based on the calibration test tone, you should have a balanced volume level for your surrounds. Maybe try a movie that definitely has a good mix of surround content (Terminator Salvation is one).

[HT]

Energy RC-70 Rosenut
Energy RC-LCR Rosenut
Energy Veritas 1.0CM
SVS PC12-NSD
Pioneer SC-1522-K

 

[Desktop]

Emotiva Airmotiv 4

Sennheiser HD555 modded


Pics of my setup

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post #17833 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 11:50 AM
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Is it possible to ever get a speaker back to its "manufactured" state if there is something wrong with it internally/parts replaced/xover changed or altered? I bought my RC-10's used so I don't know if the guy had some work on it or not but one speaker is definitely a lesser version of the other, most notably in the lower end.

I've done numerous tests since I last brought up this issue on this board, there is no question something's wrong. I just want to know whether I should take it to a shop to fix it or if that's a waste of time since they will won't be able to get the speakers to match.
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post #17834 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 11:59 AM
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[quote=batpig;One thing to note is that the Mini's are much more efficient than the RC's. The older RC-Mini CC I had required about 6dB less volume than the RC-10's, and in my current A/B tests I have to trim down the Mini's about 4dB relative to the RC-10's to get them level matched.[/QUOTE]

Great description on what you are experiencing. Since I have just replaced a mini with a 10, my perception is pretty much the same. I too was hit with that "warm, lush, full mid-bass".

Now my Mini wides sound a little thin, Ugh! No end to upgrading.
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post #17835 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Subie - any A/B comparos of CB-5 vs CB-10? How are your general impressions of the "new" C's these days?

They sound pretty good, and are about 90% as full as the CB10s, at least in my small bedroom. They used plastic terminals, which looks pretty cheap. Notice how I actually kept the grilles on as well. They look pretty cheap all over. This is coming from someone who left the grilles off on the c-series because I thought they looked "expensive". They're not even in the same atmosphere as far as build quality compared to RCs.

They do sound amazing after I've had them for awhile. Dialogue is very crisp, and clear. Brighter than my old c-series, but just a tad. I think they're much better with music, as I hated the old c-series for music. They're still pretty laid back though. Not near as forward as my kefs.

I wish I could put them in a better suited location, but I'm limited in the bedroom. I have the ports plugged as well.
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post #17836 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hung8489 View Post

Thanks Batpig. I considered the RC Mini CC but I am going to adding it to my two RC-70's and I was afraid the Mini CC would not be enough for the center. I was hoping the two Mini's used as a center would be a middle ground between the RC-LCR and the RC Mini CC.

I am running through these options because I can not find a Rosenut RC-LCR. If someone has a Rosenut RC-LCR they would like to trade for a black one I could try that way. In the end I may have to just purchase the RC-LCR in black ash.

If it was that important for me to have rose nut. I'd just stain the black one to match.
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post #17837 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 01:20 PM
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I'll just keep looking. Surely one will turn up sooner or later.

Denon 1910
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RC-LCR Rosenut Finally!
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post #17838 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subiefast View Post

My new cb5 centers. This is my bedroom setup.


nice clean setup u got there subie. where did u get that tv stand? that;s exactly what I'm looking for
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post #17839 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 04:32 PM
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I really like those CB-5's as fronts. Would the Energy FPS make a good center match? I know the 4.5in drivers match but would the 1in vs .75in tweeter blend well together? Thanks!
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post #17840 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 04:58 PM
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it would work OK but, unless you absolutely HAVE TO have a "slim" center channel, you would be much better served getting one of the matching center (CC-5 or CC-10) or even a third bookshelf speaker (CB-5) in the middle. with the front three speakers, if at all possible, you want to "keep it in the family" so you get good timbre match across the front.

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post #17841 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 06:03 PM
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Just receiver my RC mini's in cherry to go with the RC-10s I purchased last month. Man that mini is a beautiful little speaker!

Its a shame I can't find an RC mini center in cherry. I may have to get the rosenut instead. Since the center will either go in my stereo cabinet or on a shelf above the TV, the color isn't as critical. But still I'd like to have cherry if possible. I'll keep slowly searching.

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post #17842 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 06:52 PM
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Hey thanks for all the speaker reviews today, guys. It's really cool hearing your detailed opinions and comparisons.
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post #17843 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 07:43 PM
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Thanks Batpig! So it is better to match the tweeter or the driver size? It's just so confusing with conflicting opinions about complete timbre matching the front three drivers and tweeters or others recommending a bigger or more powerful center speaker because all the dialogue is directed to the center channel. If I go with CB-5's as fronts which I intend to do, the CC-5 would be a perfect match but the CC-10 is bigger 5.5in & 1in and probably superior. What's your recommendation? Thanks again!
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post #17844 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 08:57 PM
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I see the ESW-V8 sub is back down to $225 again. That's good!
http://www.wwstereo.com/website/ecom...product=ESW-V8

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post #17845 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beahead99 View Post

nice clean setup u got there subie. where did u get that tv stand? that;s exactly what I'm looking for

I bought it from target. I think it's a z-line. I think it was around $180. Good stand.
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post #17846 of 52116 Old 02-25-2010, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarddTimezz View Post

Thanks Batpig! So it is better to match the tweeter or the driver size? It's just so confusing with conflicting opinions about complete timbre matching the front three drivers and tweeters or others recommending a bigger or more powerful center speaker because all the dialogue is directed to the center channel. If I go with CB-5's as fronts which I intend to do, the CC-5 would be a perfect match but the CC-10 is bigger 5.5in & 1in and probably superior. What's your recommendation? Thanks again!

The IDEAL setup is all identical speakers. But very few people can actually achieve this ideal, so it's a trade-off between various compromises.

Don't worry about driver size, that's fairly irrelevant. An RC-10 and some random other bookshelf speaker can both have 5.5" woofers but they will not sound the same. Generally, the tweeter (higher freq's) is going to determine most of the "tonal matching", but it's not about size, it's about matching the sound.

That's why, as a general rule, you want to "keep it in the family" and buy speakers from the same lineup, because they were all designed with the same components and to sound the same. So, if you are going to get fronts from the CB/CF "connoisseur" series your center channel should be as well, either a third bookshelf speaker (if you can place vertical) or a dedicated horizontal center like CC-5 or CC-10.

Now, once you are in the "family", you can think about matching up sizes a bit. For example, the CC-5 is probably the closest match tonally to the CB-5's because it is similar in overall size and uses similar sized drivers from the family. But if you don't match up sizes perfectly, e.g. the larger CB-20 bookshelves with the small CC-5 center, it will not be quite as seamless but it will still sound great because the speakers were all built to sound the same and share the same tweeter.

So, basically, the closer you can get the front three, the better, but you have to balance this ideal with practical limitations and it's not like it will sound like garbage if you want big CF-50 towers and you can only fit the little CC-5 center. It just won't be PERFECT, but few setups are, and yet we still enjoy the heck out of it

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post #17847 of 52116 Old 02-26-2010, 08:37 AM
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I have a 5.1 system with 5 Energy RC-Mini's. The RC-Mini owners manual states:

The recommended setting for the RC-Mini and RC-Mini Center speakers is the
“large” position. Set the crossover frequency to 100Hz. Energy does NOT
recommend using any equalization function that your receiver offers when set to
"LARGE",as this may damage your speakers. In a large room or when maximum
output is required, set the speakers to "small" and the crossover to 120Hz.The
Subwoofer must be activated by setting the “on” or “use” settings.


This seems to be in contrast to everything I've read on this forum and others, which states always set to "small" - any help?

I have a HSU STF-2 subwoofer.

The RC-Mini's are rated down to 80 Hz, I'd like to keep my crossover at 80 or 90 so the woofer isn't too localized. Thoughts?
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post #17848 of 52116 Old 02-26-2010, 08:41 AM
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That is weird because some receivers dont let you adjust the crossover if they're set to LARGE. And a 100hz crossover surely isn't typical or a LARGE speaker. LARGE usually means "full range" or close to it and the RC mini isn't close.

I just got some RC minis yesterday and wont be setting them as LARGE.

I set my crossover at 100hz as the low end of the RC mini rolls off pretty quickly well before 80hz. I will also experiment with 120hz.

http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/e...rcmini_s83.htm

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post #17849 of 52116 Old 02-26-2010, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ucsbjd View Post

I have a 5.1 system with 5 Energy RC-Mini's. The RC-Mini owners manual states:

The recommended setting for the RC-Mini and RC-Mini Center speakers is the
“large” position. Set the crossover frequency to 100Hz. Energy does NOT
recommend using any equalization function that your receiver offers when set to
"LARGE",as this may damage your speakers. In a large room or when maximum
output is required, set the speakers to "small" and the crossover to 120Hz.The
Subwoofer must be activated by setting the “on” or “use” settings.


This seems to be in contrast to everything I've read on this forum and others, which states always set to "small" - any help?

I have a HSU STF-2 subwoofer.

The RC-Mini's are rated down to 80 Hz, I'd like to keep my crossover at 80 or 90 so the woofer isn't too localized. Thoughts?

You'd probably want a 120Hz xover with the RC-Mini. With the Mini CC, you can probably get away with 100Hz. With the RC-Mini bookshelf, even 100Hz is probably pushing it.
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post #17850 of 52116 Old 02-26-2010, 09:28 AM
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What would you recommend the Take 5's should be crossed at, 120hz? Also I should set them to small, correct? I will be using a sub.
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