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post #3541 of 3567 Old 07-26-2014, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by jleffell View Post
I agree about the extra detail for the Ikon over the x12. I convinced myself of it having gone back and forth a few times (no A/B testing but we switched 2 or so times). I don't have enough room for stands now, they will be sitting on a desk. But I will add stands when I move or figure out how to reconfigure my space.
When I was first getting into higher end hifi like you, i was between the Ikon 2 MKI and X16s and the Totem Sttaf, I found that the Ikon was just a bit too shrill at higher volumes and went with the X16s as they sounded bigger then the Sttafs and had more slam and output and still smoother then the Ikons. I still like Dali speakers and Im thinking that Zensors for my second room would be great. Its all about preference, I don't think you have a bad decision in front of you.

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post #3542 of 3567 Old 07-26-2014, 09:01 AM
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DR Mark, great write up on the differences between the speakers, I always enjoy reading these types of things.

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post #3543 of 3567 Old 07-26-2014, 03:30 PM
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callas01: Well I was comparing the X12 and the newer Ikon 1 MKII and for me it was a no brainer in my office, I went with the Ikon 1MKII and sold off the X12s. However the finishes on Dynaudio tend to be better at the lower end models verses the Dali's.
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post #3544 of 3567 Old 07-26-2014, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Garman View Post
callas01: Well I was comparing the X12 and the newer Ikon 1 MKII and for me it was a no brainer in my office, I went with the Ikon 1MKII and sold off the X12s. However the finishes on Dynaudio tend to be better at the lower end models verses the Dali's.
That'd be another consideration for some, fit and finish esp if they're gonna be in a living room or den where company or wives are gonna see them. some people would give up a tiny bit of detail for a speaker they can proudly display to friends and family... others wouldn't care what people say/feel or think. Again its preference and either way he has a great Danish speaker.

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post #3545 of 3567 Old 07-27-2014, 09:17 AM
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callas01: Does the Zensor come in Lacquer finish? I went with Walnut and wife liked them, I also have the Ikon 1MKII in my office in same finish, I think for the money they sounded better than my older Excites. I think for the value the DM line is much better, when you step up into the Contour line that in a different league. Now if the Rubicon were priced a tad better, I think they would sell like hot cakes. I heard the Helicon and Epicon and loved them, they were the best speaker I have heard on instrumental music not as good to my ears as the Dyns on vocals. These were all being run on Halo separates.
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post #3546 of 3567 Old 07-27-2014, 12:01 PM
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Just got these in a couple of hours ago. Will try to get them hooked up and compare in a day or 2. Anything you would like me to focus on?
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post #3547 of 3567 Old 07-27-2014, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Garman View Post
callas01: Does the Zensor come in Lacquer finish? I went with Walnut and wife liked them, I also have the Ikon 1MKII in my office in same finish, I think for the money they sounded better than my older Excites. I think for the value the DM line is much better, when you step up into the Contour line that in a different league. Now if the Rubicon were priced a tad better, I think they would sell like hot cakes. I heard the Helicon and Epicon and loved them, they were the best speaker I have heard on instrumental music not as good to my ears as the Dyns on vocals. These were all being run on Halo separates.
$6k for the rubicon 6, wow. That's a price jump from the mentor 6.

The focus are chumps?

The zensor comes in a satin white vinyl wrap I believe. It's not lauquer.
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post #3548 of 3567 Old 07-27-2014, 02:21 PM
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Garman and callas01: Thanks for the info. The store is about to move locations and the California Audio Show is happening in a few weeks. I am probably going to go to the show to make sure I'm set on the Dyns/Dalis and then do final testing at the store after breaking in my amp (it should be arriving this week but I need to find a cheap set of speakers to break it in with). The store unfortunately doesn't do a/b testing which would probably make the process a bit easier. Of course I also just want to start listening so I have to fight the urge to make a brash decision (even though I'd probably be happy with either compared to what I've had in the past). I am also thinking about going up to the Ikon 2 MK2 size (I have no room for sub) but they do not stock that nor do any stores in the Bay Area (that I know about). I'd be hesitant to order it without hearing it but if I decide Ikon over Excite then maybe I could just go for it. I would also be interested in seeing if the Mentor line gets discounted as a result of their being phased-out.
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post #3549 of 3567 Old 07-27-2014, 02:25 PM
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Here is another picture of the Dali lines. I'm still stunned at being able to compare the lines.
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post #3550 of 3567 Old 07-27-2014, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by callas01 View Post
$6k for the rubicon 6, wow. That's a price jump from the mentor 6.

The focus are chumps?

The zensor comes in a satin white vinyl wrap I believe. It's not lauquer.
Focus are chumps? Far from it if your talking about Dynaudio, those are one of their best lines for the money if you asks me. I wouldn't mind the Focus 160s... Although if the Rubicon had a better monitor, it might not be bad, but I agree the price of the Rubicon 6 or 8 seem too over the top, I originally thought they were going to be around 3 grand for the Rubicon 6 but not double!
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post #3551 of 3567 Old 07-27-2014, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Garman View Post
Focus are chumps? Far from it if your talking about Dynaudio, those are one of their best lines for the money if you asks me. I wouldn't mind the Focus 160s... Although if the Rubicon had a better monitor, it might not be bad, but I agree the price of the Rubicon 6 or 8 seem too over the top, I originally thought they were going to be around 3 grand for the Rubicon 6 but not double!
I meant cause you went from Excites to Contours, and skipped the Focus line. I think the Focus line is the best price/performance line you get with Dyn. But enough Dyn talk. I figured with the Mentor 6 price at $4499, the Rubicon 6 would be about $5300-5500, so to me, $6k is high, not crazy, but more then I would have expected. $3k is very low, considering that the Ikon 7s prices are in that range.

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post #3552 of 3567 Old 07-27-2014, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jleffell View Post
Garman and callas01: Thanks for the info. The store is about to move locations and the California Audio Show is happening in a few weeks. I am probably going to go to the show to make sure I'm set on the Dyns/Dalis and then do final testing at the store after breaking in my amp (it should be arriving this week but I need to find a cheap set of speakers to break it in with). The store unfortunately doesn't do a/b testing which would probably make the process a bit easier. Of course I also just want to start listening so I have to fight the urge to make a brash decision (even though I'd probably be happy with either compared to what I've had in the past). I am also thinking about going up to the Ikon 2 MK2 size (I have no room for sub) but they do not stock that nor do any stores in the Bay Area (that I know about). I'd be hesitant to order it without hearing it but if I decide Ikon over Excite then maybe I could just go for it. I would also be interested in seeing if the Mentor line gets discounted as a result of their being phased-out.
the mentor 1 is going for about $1700 at audio visions SF, Another speaker you could look at in that $1k price range is the Dynaudio DM2/7, it'll have bass to satisfy. The Ikon 2 MKII and Excite X14 will have better resolution overall.

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post #3553 of 3567 Old 07-28-2014, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by callas01 View Post
I meant cause you went from Excites to Contours, and skipped the Focus line. I think the Focus line is the best price/performance line you get with Dyn. But enough Dyn talk. I figured with the Mentor 6 price at $4499, the Rubicon 6 would be about $5300-5500, so to me, $6k is high, not crazy, but more then I would have expected. $3k is very low, considering that the Ikon 7s prices are in that range.

The Rubicon's image significantly better than the Mentors do and have better top end.

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post #3554 of 3567 Old 07-28-2014, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by callas01 View Post
the mentor 1 is going for about $1700 at audio visions SF
I demoed at Audiovision. This is for their floor model only. Not sure if they have new ones in stock. I'm leaning towards the Ikon as my first speaker and am trying to not just order it now without burning in my amp for final auditioning.

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post #3555 of 3567 Old 07-28-2014, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post
The Rubicon's image significantly better than the Mentors do and have better top end.
I heard the mentor 5 one time after listening to the Ikons and I remember thinking wow those sounds smoother and more refined, and detailed. I really liked them. But also at the time I remember thinking, $3500 that's insane for a pair of speakers! However the photos you showed of the rubicons made the mentors look old and outdated. The rubicons really look good IMO. Do you have any insite why the newer lines monitor speakers don't have the ribbon tweeter?

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Originally Posted by callas01 View Post
Do you have any insute why the newer lines monitor speakers don't have the ribbon tweeter?
If the Rubicon 2 had the ribbon tweeter I might hold off for a year and try to buy those (used). They do look sweet and I bet they sound amazing. Audiovision is having a moving party where the are introducing the Rubicons so I might try and go to that. However, I think the Rubicon would be way too much speaker for me at this point but they are works of art - I actually prefer the matte walnut finish to the fancier Dali speakers.

Would the Rubicon 2 sans the ribbon tweeter blow the Mentor 2 away or would it be a bit of a more even playing field than comparing the Rubicon 6 vs Mentor 6, for example?
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post #3557 of 3567 Old 07-28-2014, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by callas01 View Post
I heard the mentor 5 one time after listening to the Ikons and I remember thinking wow those sounds smoother and more refined, and detailed. I really liked them. But also at the time I remember thinking, $3500 that's insane for a pair of speakers! However the photos you showed of the rubicons made the mentors look old and outdated. The rubicons really look good IMO. Do you have any insite why the newer lines monitor speakers don't have the ribbon tweeter?

The lack of a ribbon is probably for 2 reasons. 1, the additional cost of the speaker. Remove the ribbon, save cash and lower the cost of the speaker.
The second, the development of the Epicon 2 driver. No ribbon, the tech allows for Dali to use this or a modified version of it in other speakers and save cost there as well.

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post #3558 of 3567 Old 07-28-2014, 06:28 PM
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The lack of a ribbon is probably for 2 reasons. 1, the additional cost of the speaker. Remove the ribbon, save cash and lower the cost of the speaker.
The second, the development of the Epicon 2 driver. No ribbon, the tech allows for Dali to use this or a modified version of it in other speakers and save cost there as well.
So I guess my follow up question to that would be, why the soft dome over the ribbon?
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post #3559 of 3567 Old Yesterday, 02:19 AM
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(..)
I think I convinced myself that the DALI produced more detail and that I did not miss the loss in bass (I didn't really notice too much but perhaps it was there). He then played the famous KEF LS50s for me but honestly I think the added power and bass muffled some of the detail I realized I loved so much after the DALI audition. I know that everyone loves the LS50 (including the salespeople at the store) but I don't think it is the speaker for me.
(..)
I have listened to the LS50 very carefully and the LS50 is no match to DALI Mentor, Helicon and Epicon. Also, mention, that some people who own the LS50 now buy the KEF supertweeter because this is a big improvement. They also need subwoofers. So I guess they should buy a better monitor, though. The LS50 may be fun, but that's it.
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Perhaps I am a bit biased because I am not a fan of the aesthetics but I think the lack of detail was there.
You are not biased. The LS50 is not such a detailed monitor as the Mentor or the Ikon (or Helicon).
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(..)
During my Ikon audition I noticed perhaps a bit of what I assume people mean by fatigue. It was not pain but it also wasn't purely comfortable. This was not the case with the Mentor. Perhaps this has to do with break-in or perhaps it is a matter of the more robust construction and curved walls or different drivers?
The Mentor is a big step compared to the Ikon. With the Mentor you'll start to listen to hifi. With Ikon you are listening to a good speaker.
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Now today I find out the Mentor line is being phased out. Might I expect a price reduction on the Mentor 1? Should I spring for the Mentor 2 if there is a price reduction (the store doesn't stock the 2)?
Yes. You should expect a price drop and yes you should go for the mentor 2 if your room allows this. When I bought the Helicon 800mk2 I got a very reasonable pricedrop. If you want you can PM me for more information about this pricedrop. It might give you some information about the possibilities.
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I am planning on buying a cheap used set of speakers to break in the amp
I see no reason to waste money on breaking in the amp. Spend this money on good speakers and a decent amp?
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The Rubicons are too big and too expensive. Perhaps I should just get the Dynaudios (real wood veneer) and be happy but I think I really would like to buy a DALI.
Dynaudio is a very good brand and is highly appreciated. But I guess you should follow your heart and go for DALI. This seems to be your wish.
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Can someone who owns and has broken in the Ikon 1 MK 2 elaborate on their experience and if they ever felt fatigued by the speakers? Did that go away after sufficient break-in time?
Every speaker needs some break in time. But do not expect large differences.
My advise is to wait for a second hand pair of Helicon 300mk2. Or buy a second hand Mentor monitor. Not the smallest one. If not.. try to buy Helicon 300mk2 with a large discount, since the Epicon is out now, this is possible.
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So I guess my follow up question to that would be, why the soft dome over the ribbon?

The biggest issue I found from the writings of Lars and their engineers was the cabinet. The cabinet adds a lot of cost to the speaker. If they were able to engineer a smaller cabinet and tune it correctly, they could trim a lot of cost out.


I have heard the Epicon 2 and 6's together. They sound seamless other than the bottom end of course. So I am still betting Dali trimmed the ribbon off in the smaller monitors to save money and reduce the price.


I was told Dali is shipping me a pair of Rubicon LCR's to play with this week. I will compare them to the Helicon 300's I use as surrounds.

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I can attest that the lack of a ribbon tweeter does not negatively affect the Epicon 2's ability to resolve high frequency details. They are nearly as revealing as my former Martin Logan Theos but less fatiguing.

DALI Epicon 2 front speakers; DALI Epicon Vokal center speaker; Definitive Technology ProMonitor 1000 surrounds; SVS SB 13 Ultra subwoofer; Marantz AV 8801 pre/pro; Parasound Halo A51 power amp; Sony XA5400ES SACD player; Oppo BDP 105 SACD/Blu-ray player; Sennheiser HD 800 headphones; Woo Audio WA6 headphone amp.
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The biggest issue I found from the writings of Lars and their engineers was the cabinet. The cabinet adds a lot of cost to the speaker. If they were able to engineer a smaller cabinet and tune it correctly, they could trim a lot of cost out.


I have heard the Epicon 2 and 6's together. They sound seamless other than the bottom end of course. So I am still betting Dali trimmed the ribbon off in the smaller monitors to save money and reduce the price.


I was told Dali is shipping me a pair of Rubicon LCR's to play with this week. I will compare them to the Helicon 300's I use as surrounds.

I wish I could play with all those top speakers as you do dr_Mark.. I envy you (but in a good way Have fun and keep sharing your experiences.
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Please one request, anything you want me to compare, certain track, artist, tweeters etc. I'm sure the owners will want this stuff back. So in my opinion, this is one of the few opportunities to actually do a "as good as possible" fair comparison. I expect to start returning this stuff late Friday night.


P.S. If you live in Minneapolis and want a chance to see/listen, PM me.


As I spend time with all these speakers, I am updating the comparison I did.

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Please one request, anything you want me to compare, certain track, artist, tweeters etc. I'm sure the owners and Dali will want this stuff back. So in my opinion, this is one of the few opportunities to actually do a "as good as possible" fair comparison. I expect to start returning this stuff late Friday night.


P.S. If you live in Minneapolis and want a chance to see/listen, PM me.


P.P.S. Dali.... I am willing to save you the freight on shipping if you want me to keep those LCR's.. hint, hint.
dr_Mark: My experience is that supertweeters benefit from rooms with lots of absorption: at least the side walls, floor, maybe even ceiling. Could you tell more about your room? When you compare for example the E2 with the H300mk2, this is only fair if the supertweeters really can blossom.. Just my 2 cents.

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post #3565 of 3567 Old Today, 07:41 AM
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Here is a link showing Mark's pending DALI Shootout event.
Multiple DALI Speaker Shootout Event at 5:30 August 1st in MN.

The opinions and results will be posted on that link.

It reads:
Multiple DALI Speaker Shootout Event at 5:30 August 1st in MN.
Hello All! We are having a DALI Speaker Shootout Event at 5:30pm August 1st in Columbia Heights MN. One of my customers wanted to have it in his home (username DR_Mark). I'll be buying some pizza and drinks for the event.

We will be listening to the DALI Epicon 6's ($13,995), the brand new Rubicon 8's ($7,995), and the Helicon 300MKII ($3,995). These are all current models. Additionally, a customer of mine brought his DALI Euphonia MS-4's ($9,000) to the event so we can compare in contrast it to previous reference models.

The DALI importer will be flying in to attend the event and promises to bring some more toys including the new Rubicon LCR onwall ($1,695 ea).

Some additional speakers will be present as well including the GoldenEar Triton 7's. Do you want to hear how your speakers compare? Well then bring them to the event!

While we are at it, we will be comparing the sound quality difference between the Marantz AV8801 and some DAC's with built in digital volume controls (PS Audio and Bel Canto). I hear a definite difference but let your ears decide.

Additionally we will be swapping out power cords, interconnects, and other "tweaks". Judge for yourself if you hear any differences.

The evening was designed to have fun and share information. I wanted to open it up to anyone in the WI and MN area that wants to hear differences with their own ears. We have 12+ attending. Please PM me for the event address. Hope to see you there!

Steve with Sound Video in MN 612-308-7736 cell

Steve Herrala
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post #3566 of 3567 Old Today, 02:33 PM
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More to enjoy, Seem to very well built. Love the binding posts. Solid and secure. Finish is consistent with the Rubicon line. I like it . Major improvement over the Ikon on-walls.
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Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
Here is a link showing Mark's pending DALI Shootout event.
Multiple DALI Speaker Shootout Event at 5:30 August 1st in MN.

The opinions and results will be posted on that link.

It reads:
Multiple DALI Speaker Shootout Event at 5:30 August 1st in MN.
Hello All! We are having a DALI Speaker Shootout Event at 5:30pm August 1st in Columbia Heights MN. One of my customers wanted to have it in his home (username DR_Mark). I'll be buying some pizza and drinks for the event.

We will be listening to the DALI Epicon 6's ($13,995), the brand new Rubicon 8's ($7,995), and the Helicon 300MKII ($3,995). These are all current models. Additionally, a customer of mine brought his DALI Euphonia MS-4's ($9,000) to the event so we can compare in contrast it to previous reference models.

The DALI importer will be flying in to attend the event and promises to bring some more toys including the new Rubicon LCR onwall ($1,695 ea).

Some additional speakers will be present as well including the GoldenEar Triton 7's. Do you want to hear how your speakers compare? Well then bring them to the event!

While we are at it, we will be comparing the sound quality difference between the Marantz AV8801 and some DAC's with built in digital volume controls (PS Audio and Bel Canto). I hear a definite difference but let your ears decide.

Additionally we will be swapping out power cords, interconnects, and other "tweaks". Judge for yourself if you hear any differences.

The evening was designed to have fun and share information. I wanted to open it up to anyone in the WI and MN area that wants to hear differences with their own ears. We have 12+ attending. Please PM me for the event address. Hope to see you there!

Steve with Sound Video in MN 612-308-7736 cell
Since the Golden Ear speakers will be there, I'd love to hear about a direct comparison between the Dynaudio Focus 160s (you show Dynaudio on your website) and the Rubicon 2. Both $3k monitors, both Danish speakers... I'm just saying.

Last edited by callas01; Today at 06:32 PM.
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