Inifinty speakers and bang for your buck - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 282 Old 08-23-2006, 02:58 PM
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Guess I missed vorkosigan1's question back then. I did receive armystud0911's message from yesterday though and that was when I saw the previous message.

My current L/C/Rs are as described above. On well mixed movies with a lot of constant and concurrent L/C/R action the soundstage width and height is awesome. And vocal intelligibility, if it's there in the mix, is perfect. Better than a lot of presentations of the exact material in (even) a THX certified theater. But bear in mind I'm now running the Audyssey Sound Equalizer.

Patrick
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post #92 of 282 Old 08-23-2006, 03:09 PM
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Sometimes I wish I had smaller fronts , i.e. good bookshelf speakers like the Beta 10s, instead of IL60 towers. For music though I'm really happy that I have them. Not having to use the sub except for Mahler and pipe organ may seem inconsequential to most, but the difference in timbre and overall room sound between my sub and the powered ones in the towers is very noticeable to me. Guess vorkosigan1's questions were answered satisfactorily.

Greg

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post #93 of 282 Old 08-25-2006, 05:00 AM
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whoops, yeah it that was my bad, I had a bunch of windows open and some search windows with really old topics and accidentally resurrected a dead thread, mistaking it for a new one.
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post #94 of 282 Old 09-12-2006, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GLBright View Post

So what did you finally do? Most of this thread activity is from March.

Greg

Wow ... can't beleive I found this one. Oh, I'm the OP by the way.

I ended up buying a house ..... and remodeling it. Oh, it's our new home.

And my TV died ... so I bought a 42" plasma that I am picking up on Friday. The place is finally livable. Still need to finish the kitchen but I have a 20x24' room now. Half for my kid to play and half to sit and relax/watch TV.

I'm on a tight budget ... so I'm keeping my ol' SM 65s for the rear channel.

I have an Infinity Primus Center channel (model C25) that is maybe 2 years old. That's a keeper.

For now, I'm thinking of doing a 5.1 system w/ new receiver. I'll need new main speakers and probably a sub. Any thoughts? I think it makes sense to stick with the Primus line of Inifinty speakers to keep the system balanced up front. I can't justify the cost to replace the rears (SM65s).

Any thoughts for which mains to get? I just measured where they are going...
I can actually go up to a 27" tall speaker and they'll work per the wife's requirments. The only other requirment is that if they are ported, they can't be ported to the back as these will be right next to a wall on the rear and one side. I hate being tied to this height requirment. It's way bigger than book shelf size but to short for towers. It has to be shorter than 27" though.

And what sub to get? I probably need to go with a 12" sub due to the room's size. Budget is a BIG concern though. I want something that sounds nice ... but I need it to fill the room.

Let's assume a target of $1200 for the main speakers and the sub. A little either way on cost is fine. I'll be getting a low cost Yamahaa receiver that is 5.1 (possibly 7.1 for future considerations) for about $300.
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post #95 of 282 Old 09-12-2006, 09:24 PM - Thread Starter
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For the price of Infinity Primus 160s ... I could get them for the mains and rear and toss the SM65s Any thoughts on this?

I could also get the Infinity PS12 12" subwoofer for a good price.

$1200 budget and 4 160s and the sub would cost about $900
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post #96 of 282 Old 09-12-2006, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plhart View Post

Guess I missed vorkosigan1's question back then. I did receive armystud0911's message from yesterday though and that was when I saw the previous message.

My current L/C/Rs are as described above. On well mixed movies with a lot of constant and concurrent L/C/R action the soundstage width and height is awesome. And vocal intelligibility, if it's there in the mix, is perfect. Better than a lot of presentations of the exact material in (even) a THX certified theater. But bear in mind I'm now running the Audyssey Sound Equalizer.

Patrick

Patrick,

A new thread "Infinity Primus Owners thread" was started today. We would like to hear your views on primus series too. I am sure existing owners and people who are trying to make their HT setup decision will benefit from your extensive experience.

Thx.
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post #97 of 282 Old 09-18-2006, 09:27 AM
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I'll be happy to give my views on the Infinity Primus series but can't contribute any further afterwards to the Owner's thread since I was not the Systems Design Engineer on the Primus.

-The Primus series was designed approximately four years ago by Bill D. who sat in the cubicle next to mine.

-In my estimation Bill is one of a handful of great loudspeaker design engineers. Bill has devised support software which complements the normal LEAP program we all used. For crossover design this software allows him to quickly come up with an extremely low parts count crossover which gives the best linear on-axis and (off-axis) power response envelope. It is this end result which allows the Primus series to be what I consider the absolute lowest price/highest performance ratio of any loudspeaker series in the Infinity line (if not the entire industry).

-for cost reasons the Primus line and all of its parts were made in China. The crossover components, both capacitors and inductors were lower quality implements that Bill was tasked to use for cost reasons. Same with the cabinet. The Chinese equivalent of 5/8 all around the wrap and back and I believe even on the front baffle. (Though the front may be ¾ (or 19mm).

-I would strongly suggest against ever trying to upgrade crossover parts in the quest for more performance. It isn't gonna happen. Plus loosening and tightening the screws a couple of times and you'll start to quickly wear out the threads cut into the brittle MDF that is used on these cabinets.

-the greatest chance for seeming unit-to-unit imbalance will come from the production variations of the tweeter. Again, low cost drives a wider plus or minus variation in each tweeter's response. (I bet this opens up a can of worms)

-In closing I'd recommend never trying to modify or mess with the Primus or any loudspeaker unit for that manner unless you really know what you're doing. Just play with set-up, positioning and pointing your speakers and read everything you can about how to fix your room acoustics. Because once that sound launches from the speaker cones they've already performed their electrical-to-mechanical-to-acoustic sound wave trick. From there the room takes over. And the further you are from your speakers the more influence the room will exert on the sound at your ears.

Good luck to all'

Patrick
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post #98 of 282 Old 09-18-2006, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kherman View Post

For the price of Infinity Primus 160s ... I could get them for the mains and rear and toss the SM65s Any thoughts on this?

I could also get the Infinity PS12 12" subwoofer for a good price.

$1200 budget and 4 160s and the sub would cost about $900

$900 could buy the Primus + receiver.

You probably can find those Primus's for $600 online, total. I got my PS 12 for about $250, and have seen the 160's go for low as $70 each (but not at the moment).

Personally I would go for the 250's or 360's up front, but you say they exceed your height requirement. If you buy the 160's, you still have to put them up on stands, right?
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post #99 of 282 Old 09-19-2006, 03:37 PM
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Patrick wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by plhart View Post

I'll be happy to give my views on the Infinity Primus series but can't contribute any further afterwards to the Owner's thread since I was not the Systems Design Engineer on the Primus.

Does this mean that you'll no longer be making ANY contributions to discussions of Infinity speakers? I for one certainly hope not! And I know you may have already mentioned this on another thread, but just which models of Infinity were you directly involved with? Knowing that may help some of us glean a few more golden nuggets from your "mine".

Thanks for your insight and contributions.

Greg

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post #100 of 282 Old 12-06-2006, 06:44 AM
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Patrick

I plan to buy beta10 and I already have a subwoofer. Would you say that 100Hz cross over frequency is good ? Would you recommend going lower than that ?

Who is the desinger for Revel Concerta series ?

Thanks
Nick
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post #101 of 282 Old 12-06-2006, 06:49 AM
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Patrick,

Thanks for the insight of these amazing speakers. Why would not you use Beta 20s instead ? Is that because you have subwoofer so there is no need for 6.5" driver in Beta 20s ?

Did you use Beta 10 as surround also ?

Thanks,
-Nick

Quote:
Originally Posted by plhart View Post

In my home theater set up I'm using three Beta 10s oriented vertically across the front with all tweeters on top. I built stands for the left front and right front which puts the midpoint between the woofer and tweeter at 34". This is my seated listening height.

The center Beta 10 has a midpoint of 54" but I built another stand behind our HDTV which tilts the Beta 10 at an angle so that it again hits 34" back at the listening area. I positioned the center Beta 10 with the woofer on the bottom. Because there is a space between the bottom of the speaker and the TV there is not too much proximity bass boost added. Another reason I can do this is because I've just installed one of the first Audyssey Sound Equalizer stand-alone units (pictures and review coming soon!) so the Audyssey can flatten out any proximity and back wall boost effects.

If I had my druthers I'd mount all three Beta 10s at the 54" height and point them down. That would yield the most believable L/C/R pans. The wife says no.

Hope this helps.

Patrick Hart

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post #102 of 282 Old 02-18-2007, 03:07 PM
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plhart,
Can you comment on the ES250's?
Thanks for a great thread.
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post #103 of 282 Old 02-19-2007, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skanan View Post

Patrick

I plan to buy beta10 and I already have a subwoofer. Would you say that 100Hz cross over frequency is good ? Would you recommend going lower than that ?

Who is the desinger for Revel Concerta series ?

Thanks
Nick

I cross my own Beta 10 LCR's at 80Hz, Nick. IMO the Beta 10's 5.25" driver gives a more tonally accurate rendition of both male and female voice when compared to the
6.5" Beta 20's but this is a personal choice. Some people prefer the more recessed character of a 6.5" when producing vocals for music when a subwoofer is not present.

The Revel Concertas were designed by Revel's Chief Engineer Mark G. under the guidance of Revel Director Kevin Voecks.
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post #104 of 282 Old 02-19-2007, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skanan View Post

Patrick,

Thanks for the insight of these amazing speakers. Why would not you use Beta 20s instead ? Is that because you have subwoofer so there is no need for 6.5" driver in Beta 20s ?

Did you use Beta 10 as surround also ?

Thanks,
-Nick

Nick, here's the link to the article I wrote for Audioholics.com which details my home theater set-up>>

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...yProPrimer.php
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post #105 of 282 Old 02-19-2007, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pablo M View Post

plhart,
Can you comment on the ES250's?
Thanks for a great thread.

The Infinity Beta ES250's use 5.25" CMMD mid-bass drivers similar to the Beta 10's. The difference is that the ES250 utilizes a neodymium magnet/motor structure whereas the Beta 10 mid-bass driver utilizes a more conventional ferrite magnet with a smaller companion ferrite "bucking magnet" and shielded can motor structure. The smaller form factor neo magnet was necessary for the ES250 due to the motor structure's very close proximity to the rear speaker baffle. 1" dome tweeters and the computer designed and patented constant impedance waveguide are identical on both Beta 10 and ES250 models.

Properly placed at + or - 80 to 110 degrees from center and 2' above listening level the ES250's perform a very convincing dipole or bipole surround image, depending on your preference and room acoustics. Used as rear left and rear rights the ES250's will probably work best in bipole configuration in most instances. If used for rear surround placement I'd recommend placement at least 2' above listening height and spacing at 135-150 degrees from the 0 degree center channel.

Good listening.

Patrick Hart
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post #106 of 282 Old 02-20-2007, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plhart View Post

I cross my own Beta 10 LCR's at 80Hz, Nick. IMO the Beta 10's 5.25" driver gives a more tonally accurate rendition of both male and female voice when compared to the
6.5" Beta 20's but this is a personal choice. Some people prefer the more recessed character of a 6.5" when producing vocals for music when a subwoofer is not present.

The Revel Concertas were designed by Revel's Chief Engineer Mark G. under the guidance of Revel Director Kevin Voecks.

plhart,

How well of a sonic match do you think the Revel F32, C32 and S12 and M12 would be? I am considering purchasing the Revel F32, C32 and using the Revel Concerta's as the surround speakers. Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks!
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post #107 of 282 Old 02-21-2007, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david*roy View Post

plhart,

How well of a sonic match do you think the Revel F32, C32 and S12 and M12 would be? I am considering purchasing the Revel F32, C32 and using the Revel Concerta's as the surround speakers. Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks!

You couldn't get a much closer timbrel match, David.

Mark G. did most of the design work on both series with some help, I believe, from Bill D. And since all Harman speaker companies design toward for a flat and linear power response I'd guess that it would be quite difficult to tell any sonic difference if you were to compare like systems to like systems (i.e. F-series 6.5" two-way vs. Concerta 6.5" two-way) while listening double blind.

Technically, the F-series have much more rigid and elaborately made cabinets and all F-series I believe use 4th-order crossover networks.

Many of the Concerta models are very close cousins to the now out-of-production Infinity Beta series, using the same crossover PCBs (mostly 2nd-order networks) and port tubes. In a couple of instances the main differences are the driver cones and slightly different crossover values which better match Revel's drivers.

Oh, ya. And you do pay a bit more money in most instances for the Revel name versus the Infinity name.

Patrick Hart
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post #108 of 282 Old 02-23-2007, 10:29 PM
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plhart,

Just a quick question. Do you think the C250 is a better match with Beta 40?
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post #109 of 282 Old 02-26-2007, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iove View Post

plhart,

Just a quick question. Do you think the C250 is a better match with Beta 40?

The C360 is the best match to the Beta 40.
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post #110 of 282 Old 03-20-2007, 10:55 AM
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hi plhart-
I have 2 beta 50s, c360 center, and 2 es250s for LR and RR. After some experimenting, I maintain them in bipole mode for both music and movies; however, when I move up to 7.1 someday, I plan on using them as Side rear surrounds and will probably switch between dipole for movies and bipole for music.

What are your thoughts on using 2 ES250s for L and R surround channels as described above and one rear es250 wired separately for both L and R rear channels? Is this effective or would you advise against it?

In addition, I know you have recommended the beta 40s over the 50s. I haven't tested them side by side, but even with a great SVS sub I have never been sorry I had the 50s or thought I had too much bass. The 50s still do contribute to the bass mix even with crossover set at 80 hz...thoughts?

Thanks for all of your great input on these speakers...knowing more makes me love them more!
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post #111 of 282 Old 03-20-2007, 11:15 AM
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My ES-250s arrives today. I was also considering buying a 3rd one and setting it up like you are considering, Art.

I'm running Rockets in the front, but have never had a problem mixing Infinitys in the back, with Rockets in the front
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post #112 of 282 Old 03-20-2007, 12:42 PM
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Just think of Infinity as baby Revels. The actual drivers are not that different, and probably made right next to each other.

The First Clarke Law states, 'If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible he is almost certainly right, but if he says that it is impossible he is very probably wrong.'
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post #113 of 282 Old 03-20-2007, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnR_IN_LA View Post

My ES-250s arrives today. I was also considering buying a 3rd one and setting it up like you are considering, Art.

I'm running Rockets in the front, but have never had a problem mixing Infinitys in the back, with Rockets in the front

I hope you like them as much as I do...they make such a difference from the HTIB speakers I replaced them with it's not even funny (unless I'm watching Anchorman which I regularly do)...With the Beta 50s, c360, and 2 ES250s in the back, I am very, very happy with my sound). The new SVS sub doesn't hurt either...
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post #114 of 282 Old 03-20-2007, 08:06 PM
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I know they look the same, but I think that plhart was saying that the revels have different drivers, if nothing else, the tweeters are probably quite a bit different (I know they were outsourced to a different company and the revel designer probably had different goals for his design). I do know that the xovers in the revels are higher quality than the already great ones used in the betas.
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post #115 of 282 Old 03-21-2007, 07:12 AM
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Just thought I'd mention I received my Beta C250 center and Primus 250 fronts direct from Harman this week. WOW! Huge upgrade from my aging Sony speakers and this is with my Sony receiver. I can't wait until I get a new receiver, sub and rears.

Gamertag: ohmyblazes
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post #116 of 282 Old 03-21-2007, 07:14 AM
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With the 360 being such an amazing center, the 250 often times gets overlooked, I originally had one and it did a splendid job when crossed over at 80Hz. Don't get me wrong there is a reason people get the 360 but the 250 is no slouch.
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post #117 of 282 Old 03-21-2007, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtVandalay7 View Post

hi plhart-
I have 2 beta 50s, c360 center, and 2 es250s for LR and RR. After some experimenting, I maintain them in bipole mode for both music and movies; however, when I move up to 7.1 someday, I plan on using them as Side rear surrounds and will probably switch between dipole for movies and bipole for music.

What are your thoughts on using 2 ES250s for L and R surround channels as described above and one rear es250 wired separately for both L and R rear channels? Is this effective or would you advise against it?

In addition, I know you have recommended the beta 40s over the 50s. I haven't tested them side by side, but even with a great SVS sub I have never been sorry I had the 50s or thought I had too much bass. The 50s still do contribute to the bass mix even with crossover set at 80 hz...thoughts?

Thanks for all of your great input on these speakers...knowing more makes me love them more!

Art-

Crossing the Beta 50's over at 80Hz gives you a couple of great advantages:
a) With two 8"ers per side you've got a lot more piston area at the critical 80-120Hz mid-bass frequencies which comes in very handy when you're playing a movie like Top Gun which has very high level, full bandwidth bass and mid-bass from the jet engines in the opening scenes. This means your 50s will be able to play more cleanly at much higher SPLs than a typical 5 1/4" or 6" mid-bass driver.
b) At an 80Hz crossover for the 50s you will have a bit more latitude in placement within your room, such as moving them a bit closer to your front wall without experiencing the detrimental effects of room modes that are more likely to be generated (when running the 50s full range).

Re: ES250s> Using these speakers as side surrounds positioned between 80 degrees and 110 degrees (plus or minus) from front center is how they were designed. The closer you get the ES250 to 90 degrees (or exactly opposite your left and right ears) and 2 feet or so above your ears the more likelihood that you will be exactly in the dipole null (as intended). (This dipole null also assumes you're symmetrically located within a rectangular room and that the drivers have unimpeded paths to follow to the front and rear walls.)

The further you get away from this 90 degree side orientation the more likely that you'll like to use the bipolar configuration.

Setting a single 180 degree rear mounted ES250 up and dividing the drivers for the two rear surround channels should work very well.

Good listening!
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post #118 of 282 Old 03-21-2007, 09:47 AM
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Patrick-

As usual, your contributions are unreal. I don't know where you're working now, but they're lucky to have you!

I know you've recused yourself from talking much about speakers you didn't design, but I was hoping you might be able to help me out.

I currently have a pair of Primus 360's, based in large part on your description of them as one of the biggest 'bang-for-the-buck bargains' at any price point. And man, do I agree. I love them. They're great, driven by a Creek 5350SE, playing music from a Sonos fed through a Lavry DAC. I'm probably in 2-channel only for the forseeable future, and my system makes me pretty darn happy.

But, of course, I'm thinking about upgrading. I have a bunch of different thoughts on which speakers to head toward. I'm tempted by the Revel F12's - having been described by Stereophile as another one of those unbelievable bang-for-the-buck bargains. But I wonder how much of a difference I'm getting, since they may share a Harman "house sound" with the 360's. Do you have any perspective on the sonic relationship between the 360's and the more upscale F12's?

As always, unbelievable to have you on [the] board...

Thanks,
John
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post #119 of 282 Old 03-22-2007, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by plhart View Post

Art-

Crossing the Beta 50's over at 80Hz gives you a couple of great advantages:
a) With two 8"ers per side you've got a lot more piston area at the critical 80-120Hz mid-bass frequencies which comes in very handy when you're playing a movie like Top Gun which has very high level, full bandwidth bass and mid-bass from the jet engines in the opening scenes. This means your 50s will be able to play more cleanly at much higher SPLs than a typical 5 1/4" or 6" mid-bass driver.
b) At an 80Hz crossover for the 50s you will have a bit more latitude in placement within your room, such as moving them a bit closer to your front wall without experiencing the detrimental effects of room modes that are more likely to be generated (when running the 50s full range).

Re: ES250s> Using these speakers as side surrounds positioned between 80 degrees and 110 degrees (plus or minus) from front center is how they were designed. The closer you get the ES250 to 90 degrees (or exactly opposite your left and right ears) and 2 feet or so above your ears the more likelihood that you will be exactly in the dipole null (as intended). (This dipole null also assumes you're symmetrically located within a rectangular room and that the drivers have unimpeded paths to follow to the front and rear walls.)

The further you get away from this 90 degree side orientation the more likely that you'll like to use the bipolar configuration.

Setting a single 180 degree rear mounted ES250 up and dividing the drivers for the two rear surround channels should work very well.

Good listening!

Hi Patrick-
thank you so much for your input--as always, very complete and very interesting. I agree about the ES250s, I'm enjoying them more in my current small room in bipole mode rather than dipole (sit up against the back wall, speakers a few feet above the listening position and to either side). When I move up to a bigger room and put them at the side (90 degree) I'll undoubtedly switch to dipole (except for music). So, am I wrong in reading between the lines of your post that you might prefer the 50s over the 40s for movies like Top Gun (i.e. bass-heavy movies)?...It sounded before like you thought the 40s were the way to go but your reply to me seems like the 50s are a bit better, even crossed over at 80hZ...thanks again!
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post #120 of 282 Old 03-22-2007, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ArtVandalay7 View Post

Hi Patrick-
thank you so much for your input--as always, very complete and very interesting. I agree about the ES250s, I'm enjoying them more in my current small room in bipole mode rather than dipole (sit up against the back wall, speakers a few feet above the listening position and to either side). When I move up to a bigger room and put them at the side (90 degree) I'll undoubtedly switch to dipole (except for music). So, am I wrong in reading between the lines of your post that you might prefer the 50s over the 40s for movies like Top Gun (i.e. bass-heavy movies)?...It sounded before like you thought the 40s were the way to go but your reply to me seems like the 50s are a bit better, even crossed over at 80hZ...thanks again!

No reading between the lines. I meant exactly what I said. The greater 80Hz acoustic output of two 8-inch woofers vs. two 6.5" woofers working into the same size room tends to sound like you have "better" bass. You simply have more acoustic output at the same frequency which sounds to most folks like a better and more seamless match to the acoustic output of the subwoofer. Said another way, you're feeling more sound pressure at the same 80Hz with the 50s vs. the 40s.

The particular Top Gun steadystate jet engine cuts toward the movie's beginning which I've mentioned requires tons of acoustic output from 30Hz to 200Hz. A lot of 5.25" and 6" systems I've tried with this cut are driven wildly out of their voice coil gaps, often slamming the mid-woofer's spider against the speaker's top plate. It's not a pretty sound ...
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