Whatever happened to DCM's Steve Eberbach? - Page 13 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #361 of 1746 Old 01-19-2009, 09:07 PM
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Jamie, thanks for your input. You brought up a critical issue of the inductors. Steve used a series of air-core inductors in his earlier time-aligned crossover designs. If memory serves me right, iron & steel core inductors induce a phase shift to the passing signal. The crossovers in the Sevens & SSC employ solid-core inductors exclusively; therefore, simply replacing the inductors with their air-core equivalents will screw up the time/phase alignment like you mentioned. I think I'll just do the caps - they're much safer .

A couple of my friends have a lot of experience designing and building speakers & crossovers (although, I wouldn't consider them to be of Steve's caliber) and they swear by poly-caps. One guy designed a couple of 5-speaker surround systems with electrolytics and then experimented with tighter tolerance electrolytics and the equivalent value poly-films. His result with every speaker was that the poly-caps were in a different class, revealing things on discs that were never heard before. His only complaint was that they take up more real-estate and they are far more costly. The other guy is even more enthusiastic about poly over electrolytic and was surprised that I never upgraded to them. Rants & raves like these peak my curiosity.

Earlier this year, either you or Formfactor (or someone else) replaced some electrolytics with a couple of poly-caps in a set of Threes. It would be interesting to know if there was any noticeable difference in sound.
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post #362 of 1746 Old 01-26-2009, 02:06 PM
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Greetings. Input is appreciated. Over the years I have acquired a small collection of DCM speakers. My original TF500' s are still pristine after all these years. I have second hand TF250's,TF350's, TW1's, TW'3, Timepieces and a single CX17. I have a den and a livingroom, and want to set up 5.1 HT in both rooms, and be able to enjoy 2 channel as well. 2 channel sound is the more important of the two, but I enjoy looking over my shoulder during a movie with good surround sound. Shy of just moving things arround (these boys are heavy) and playing trial and error, do any combinations, main/ surround /center come to mind? One sub for now, a B&W 300. Thanks!
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post #363 of 1746 Old 01-26-2009, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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I would say that your Time Window Threes would be my first pick for main left and right speakers. The CX-17 works great as a center. I'll leave the rest up for debate.

Welcome to our little slice of the AVS forum.

One of the few. DCM Time Window Seven owners.
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post #364 of 1746 Old 01-26-2009, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracy RainH2o View Post

Jamie, thanks for looking for the info.

I did go and audition the Sevens. The guy was very nice. He had moved them to his garage. They were a matched L and R pair with consecutive numbers. All the drivers worked but it was impossible to get a good listen to them due to where they were and how they were being driven.

Both needed new covering material. One top was in OK condition with a few light scratches. The other had deep scratches. Both DCM badges were missing. All the binding posts were there. He had set all the spectral balance controls to the 12:00 position. He thought it would look nicer in the photos. Sadly, he does not have the original settings. I'm not trying to be overly critical. Just trying to give a good description of the cosmetic condition.

I am sure they would be a great pair with a little TLC and your shop skills. He had several people interested and I was the third person to take a listen to them. I made him an offer but he said he would have to get back to me. I think he is looking to sell them for a premium but locally he most likely will not be able to. He does not have the original boxes. Even if he did they would need to be double-boxed and shipping would be really expensive.

The Surroundscape center looked OK at a glance but I really wasn't there to see or hear it.



Their at 750.00 with 13 hours left...........Unbelievable.
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post #365 of 1746 Old 01-27-2009, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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It's the shipping that's the deal killer on any pair of Sevens. There just is no cheap way to box and ship two speakers that are 48" tall and weigh around 75 pounds each.

They would make a nice pair if you were within a reasonable driving distance.

One of the few. DCM Time Window Seven owners.
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post #366 of 1746 Old 01-27-2009, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papadoc87 View Post

...My original TF500' s are still pristine after all these years. I have second hand TF250's,TF350's, TW1's, TW'3, Timepieces and a single CX17. I have a den and a livingroom, and want to set up 5.1 HT in both rooms, and be able to enjoy 2 channel as well. 2 channel sound is the more important of the two, but I enjoy looking over my shoulder during a movie with good surround sound. Shy of just moving things arround (these boys are heavy) and playing trial and error, do any combinations, main/ surround /center come to mind? One sub for now, a B&W 300. Thanks!

The TW3 & TW1 are great music speakers, but they also make excellent surrounds (albeit a bit overkill :-).
I take it that most of your serious listening & movie watching will take place in your living room. If so, I would highly recommend a "TimeWindow" setup for that: TW3s as mains, TW1s for surrounds, and the CX17 for the center. These speakers blend very well together and would make an awesome surround system.
You can set up a "TimeFrame" system in the den with the TF500s as mains, and either the TF250s or TF350s for surrounds. I do not recommend using any of the TimeFrames for center channel duties, though feel free to experiment - and let us know the results if you do. The sub can be used in your main theater, although, I recommend you get another sub for the other system. Have fun!
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post #367 of 1746 Old 01-27-2009, 12:27 PM
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I'm back from a long break from this forum and am very happy to see it active. I have a few comments/questions based on recent posts.

Thanks Brian for the TF2000 photos. I have been wanting to take the backs off of my 2000's for years now to tighten up some connections and to just check it out.

Thanks also for the complete TF2000 manual. I think it curious that the manual on the second to the last page speaks about the demerits of gimmicky psychoacoustic illusions and brags about the sonic accuracy of the TF, but isn't the TimeWindow series a form of psychoacoustic gimmickry? I know that maybe the author, probably from DCM marketing, is speaking more to the electronic "hologram" electronics of the days (I always wanted a Carver Sonic Hologram to check out what the fuss was about), but the sound field of the TimeWindow series and SurroundScape could be considered a "gimmick". I'm not bashing the TimeWindows because I own and love pairs of the original TW1, SurroundScape, and one of the beast Powered SurroundScape, as well as the TF2000, and one each of TF-400 and TF-600.

Papadoc87 - How would you describe the sound characteristics between your TW3, or 1's for that matter, and the TF500? Do you feel that you need the TF500 to reproduce the accuracy for music and the TW3 for the sound field for movies? With today's electronic "psychoacoustic gimmickry" of surround processors, does it really make a difference using either the TF or TW for movies? Since the TW was also known for sonic accuracy (as noted in the TW marketing brochure showing signal traces), is there really a perceivable difference between TF and TW, especially with 50 year old ears?

I wish I could grab those TW7's to complete my collection. My TF2000 cost a fortune in freight when I bought them off of eBay.

Thanks to all for your contributions to this forum.
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post #368 of 1746 Old 01-27-2009, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by argenco View Post

If so, I would highly recommend a "TimeWindow" setup for that: TW3s as mains, TW1s for surrounds, and the CX17 for the center. These speakers blend very well together and would make an awesome surround system.

This was my exact setup prior to picking up the TW7's and building the new center channel speaker. I then moved the TW3's to the rear replacing the TW1a's. With this setup you should look at multi-channel hi-res. (DVDA-SACD) music, you won't go back to stereo. Just make sure that the rear speakers are on the sidewalls pointed at each other.
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post #369 of 1746 Old 01-27-2009, 01:16 PM
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Thanks for the input. Argenco, I had that set up TW 3 mains with TW1 surrounds, then switched the TW1s to the mains in the other room, placing the TF500s as the surrounds. Which seques to Sydneybirds remarks; no question , the TW1's have a fuller richer deeper sound, with a slight loss of clarity in the upper ranges. Perhaps it is still there, just not as noticiable given there is so much more down low.
My 48 year old ears can tell I prefer the TW1's.

The TW1's in line with the sub come very close to the TW3's by themselves.

I understand the TW with an active/passive, direct/inderect front won't work as centers, but why not the TF's?

And there is a pair of Halftimes on Ebay, any thoughts?

Nice to know my obsession is not that unusual. Its also nice that I got the DCMs and the Nakamichi, and she can play her Bose Acoustic Wave in her new place.
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post #370 of 1746 Old 01-27-2009, 01:24 PM
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Jamie, you answered a question on the TW1's on Audiogon back in 06. Thanks for that then, and so, what do you think, would a single frame work as a center?

My choice is as they say the window room and the frame room, v window mainswith frame surrounds in both rooms.

And any thoughts on a sub?
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post #371 of 1746 Old 01-27-2009, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papadoc87 View Post

My choice is as they say the window room and the frame room, v window mainswith frame surrounds in both rooms.

And any thoughts on a sub?

I think that will be your best choice as well; a window room and a frame room. I really like my SurroundScape Center as a center, but your CX17 (with the port plugged) is probably very close to the SSC. The CX17 could work for both setups. I just love those amazing CX17's and especially CX27's for the unbelievable bass. I actually use a CX17 with a blown tweeter as a sub for my computer speakers under my desk.

Anyway, I really like my vintage Hsu HRSW10 sonosub pair (10 inch woofers). I'm looking for a pair of HRSW12 or just making my own sonosubs. For my setup, a single one bottoms out with movie bomb blasts but having two sounds incredible in a large room. I don't have the newer subs so I can't compare. It is hard for me to imagine an improvement; the floor and walls already shake from them. Beware though, Hsu doesn't have a suggested replacement woofer for these if you need one. Well, I guess a 12 driver infinite baffle system with 15 inch woofers might sound better.

Thanks for the sonic opinion of the TW v TF. My thoughts as well.
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post #372 of 1746 Old 01-27-2009, 05:08 PM
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Why would you plug the port on the CX17 when using as a center. I have the 17 as a center and wonder what the advantage of plugging is? Isn't the port tuned below the 80hz cutoff of the sub anyway, so does it really make a difference?
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post #373 of 1746 Old 01-27-2009, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by aspiringphile View Post

Why would you plug the port on the CX17 when using as a center. I have the 17 as a center and wonder what the advantage of plugging is? Isn't the port tuned below the 80hz cutoff of the sub anyway, so does it really make a difference?

Jamie Hauser would be a perfect one to answer this question since he had to consider his design choices to make a perfectly matched center for the TW7's. My SurroundScape Center is an acoustic suspension speaker, so plugging the port might effectively turn a CX17 into an acoustic suspension speaker of similar characteristics as the SSC. Of course the internal volume, stuffing and crossovers used will affect speaker performance, so it is probably not just a simple thing to plug the port. The CX17 goes down to 45 Hz and the SSC goes down to 50Hz. I'm afraid I don't know enough about speaker design to be able to predict the outcome. There had to be a reason Steve designed the SSC as an acoustic suspension. Maybe for better detail for dialog, maybe in case someone stuffed the center into an entertainment center (but then wouldn't he have provided a forward port if there were advantages), who knows?

I would love for Jamie to describe the sonic difference between his custom design (with a port and custom crossover if I'm not mistaken) and an unmodified CX17, or even a SSC if he had one; all have the same drivers but different boxes and crossovers.
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post #374 of 1746 Old 01-28-2009, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papadoc87 View Post

Jamie, you answered a question on the TW1's on Audiogon back in 06. Thanks for that then, and so, what do you think, would a single frame work as a center?

My choice is as they say the window room and the frame room, v window mainswith frame surrounds in both rooms.

And any thoughts on a sub?

I have little experience with listening to the TimeFrame series outside of my brother-in-law that uses 4 TF600 and a CX17 in a surround system. I had asked Steve in the past on using the TW and TF as a center and he said that they would make a poor center speaker. You best bet would a CX17 or a SurroundScape center. The CX center as a third choice.

As far as subs go, I use two SVS 20-39 CS plus passive subs driven with a 750watt per channel pro amp. They are only used for the LFE channel for movies (room response goes below 15 Hz). I run all my speakers large for music.
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post #375 of 1746 Old 01-28-2009, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Hauser View Post

You best bet would a CX17 or a SurroundScape center. The CX center as a third choice.

As far as subs go, I use two SVS 20-39 CS plus passive subs driven with a 750watt per channel pro amp. They are only used for the LFE channel for movies (room response goes below 15 Hz). I run all my speakers large for music.

I found the CX center to be a very inferior choice compared with the first two choices, but at least it was in the DCM family.

I am so jealous over your SVS's, not that I have experienced them but just knowing the technology, like the vintage Hsu's of the same form, I'm sure they rock the house. And there are some people who want even more bass; I can't imagine. Do your's ever bottom out? I am always on the lookout to pick up a pair for cheap or make my own. I have the drivers in a box waiting for me to make'em.
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post #376 of 1746 Old 01-28-2009, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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The CX Center is a really poor performer. I had one and it was terrible even at reasonable listening levels. It just wasn't made to handle today's action flicks at any moderate volume. The CX 17, on the other hand outperformed my really expensive Tannoy center that I had before Jamie introduced me to the CX-17.

You have to really hit a properly EQ'ed SVS with a ton of power to bottom it out. I have come close. If you were going to build a sub, and I may, look into an IB sub. Infinite Baffle.

One of the few. DCM Time Window Seven owners.
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post #377 of 1746 Old 01-28-2009, 08:00 PM
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Papadoc87, years ago, I had a “TimeFrame” theater. It consisted of a pair of TF600s as fronts, TF400IIs as surrounds, and a CX17 as the center. I had an opportunity to purchase a single TF400 to use as a center. The CX17 was great, but I thought the 400 might provide an even more perfect blend with the other TimeFrames. Boy was I wrong! It sounded very close to the 17 with a wool blanket draped over it. When watching action flicks, fine details were muted; bullet shells landing on pavement or marble sounded like they were made of plastic instead of brass. I expected the tonal balance of the TimeFrame to shift upward due to the speaker’s distance from a corner, but the opposite happened. It could be that the front left and right locations place the tweeter in a more direct line with the listener’s ears, but whatever the reason, the CX17 was clearly better. The TF500, 350, and 250 were from a different era and sound a bit different than the newer series so they may fare better than the 400. The CX17 is just an all around great speaker – whether used as a center, surrounds, or mains.
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post #378 of 1746 Old 01-28-2009, 08:13 PM
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Keep in mind that the tweeters used in the CX17, SSC, and Jamie’s TWC are all different. They look similar, but their designs are far from it. The 17 uses a soft dome, the SSC is classified as a hard dome, and Jamie’s uses a diamond coated tweeter that was specially designed for the TimeWindow7. (And yes, Steve was using diamond coated tweeters a full decade before a bigger “3-character” company started bragging about their use of diamond tweeters in their newly-released top models.)

The SSC has better high frequency extension and is a bit more detailed than the CX17, though the 17 has better bass and is fuller & warmer sounding than the SSC. The SSC - preferably with a sub - would be my ultimate choice over the CX17, although the CX17 is often my first recommendation due to its availability, low used price, and great performance.
One note: unless you have your 17 packed in a tight cabinet and you’re having issues with its port output, I strongly suggest not plugging the port of the CX17 – or any other ported DCM speaker.
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post #379 of 1746 Old 01-29-2009, 02:17 AM
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I agree completely with argenco's sonic assessment of the CX17 and SSC. Thanks for pointing out the tweeter differences. Now I can understand Jamie's design choice to get the best of the tweeters with the best of the low end extension of the CX17, but based on the size of his ported box, it is probably more like a CX27.
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post #380 of 1746 Old 02-02-2009, 03:16 PM
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CX17 seems the concencus choice. which just leads to more questions, more questions. Best placed above or below the screen and does its verticle shape require vertical orientation? Because I have to build a table for the stuff that I don't wall mount.
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post #381 of 1746 Old 02-02-2009, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papadoc87 View Post

CX17 seems the concencus choice. which just leads to more questions, more questions. Best placed above or below the screen and does its verticle shape require vertical orientation? Because I have to build a table for the stuff that I don't wall mount.

It's a coax design so it can be used either way. Above or below does not matter, what ever is closer to the height of your mains. I would tilt it towards the listening area.
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post #382 of 1746 Old 02-04-2009, 03:28 PM
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Jamie, have you ever measured the frequency response of your 3's? I find that mine lack a bit of midbass compared to my original TW's.
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post #383 of 1746 Old 02-07-2009, 07:21 AM
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I just found this:

http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=170300066783

Anyone ever heard one of these?
Seems like it uses two of those 6 1/2 inch woofers also found in CX and Timeframe series.
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post #384 of 1746 Old 02-11-2009, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by triple_dre View Post

I just found this:

http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=170300066783

Anyone ever heard one of these?
Seems like it uses two of those 6 1/2 inch woofers also found in CX and Timeframe series.

I'm perrty sure it's one of Steve's design.
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post #385 of 1746 Old 02-11-2009, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by formfactor View Post

Jamie, have you ever measured the frequency response of your 3's? I find that mine lack a bit of midbass compared to my original TW's.

I don't find mine lacking, Steve took great care in making them as flat as possible. I would guess that it is a matter of room responce.
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post #386 of 1746 Old 02-11-2009, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triple_dre View Post

I just found this:

http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=170300066783

Anyone ever heard one of these?
Seems like it uses two of those 6 1/2 inch woofers also found in CX and Timeframe series.

It's a great little sub. It might not go as deep or as loud as some of the newer $1K+ subs, but it can hold its own in terms of the quality of bass it can output. It does employ those wonderful 6 1/2" low distortion woofers so, it's one of those rare subs that's also great for music. It can reach down into the 20's and it can play surprisingly loud, though you'd probably want a couple of them or a larger audiophile sub if you have a big room and want more bass.

In case you didn't know, there were 2 models: the 210 and the 210i. The "i" has a variable crossover and an autopower feature.
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post #387 of 1746 Old 02-11-2009, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by argenco View Post

It's a great little sub. It might not go as deep or as loud as some of the newer $1K+ subs, but it can hold its own in terms of the quality of bass it can output. It does employ those wonderful 6 1/2" low distortion woofers so, it's one of those rare subs that's also great for music. It can reach down into the 20's and it can play surprisingly loud, though you'd probably want a couple of them or a larger audiophile sub if you have a big room and want more bass.

In case you didn't know, there were 2 models: the 210 and the 210i. The "i" has a variable crossover and an autopower feature.

Cool

unfortunately shipping it to my location is waaay too expensive
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post #388 of 1746 Old 02-11-2009, 11:42 AM
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I have been away from this thread for a while. Did anyone ever come up with a suitable currently available substitute for a blown tweeter in a TW3. I am torn between trying to get the tweeter fixed or replaced or sending the TW3s to a speaker desgner/builder who has expressed interest in playing around with them and perhaps coming up with a new speaker and crossover set for them.
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post #389 of 1746 Old 02-12-2009, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Hauser View Post

I don't find mine lacking, Steve took great care in making them as flat as possible. I would guess that it is a matter of room responce.

That might be the case. How big is the room you have them in? The original timewindows do fine in the same room as my TW3's. I find that odd.

Could it possibly be a problem with the damping material inside? Maybe the a problem with the top/bottom not making a perfect seal?
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post #390 of 1746 Old 02-12-2009, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formfactor View Post

That might be the case. How big is the room you have them in? The original timewindows do fine in the same room as my TW3's. I find that odd.

Could it possibly be a problem with the damping material inside? Maybe the a problem with the top/bottom not making a perfect seal?

How big a room (volume) is not as much of a factor as the room ratios (HxWxD), where the speaker is in the room, and where you are listening. The sound will change just by where you are sitting in relationship to the speaker.
I wouldn't be concerned about the dampening material, but the tops and bottoms can warp allowing air to escape. I put a thin foam seal around mine before I reassembled them. Also the TW3 are best if the 3 pots in back are all turned to the 12:00 position (straight up). This should be your starting point and adjust them for room conditions. The manual does a good job of describing the adjustment procedure.
Jamie Hauser is offline  
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