Whatever happened to DCM's Steve Eberbach? - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 1707 Old 05-02-2011, 10:48 PM
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It's been a long time since I last visited. Glad to see the forum still active. Due to the economy I am giving up a bunch of DCM speakers that have been in storage since 2006, even my beloved TW1's. They are on Ebay now. I'm keeping the TF2000's, SurroundScapes, SurroundScape Center, and a couple pairs of CX-17 and 27's for the time being, although they are all in storage as well.

I still have the four VIFA M22WR-09-06 9 inch woofers for the TW7 if anyone has a need for them. You get first dibs before they go on Ebay.

My only hesitation with the VIFA's is whether they are replacements for the TF2000 woofs. I don't think they are, but I need to pull them out and see. Even if they are I would think the originals would still be fine.

Thanks for keeping the faith.

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post #722 of 1707 Old 05-04-2011, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCMlover View Post

I have 2 pairs of 400's. They are not mirror image. Both Pairs are the same with the DCM logo on the left. All the drivers are dead nuts in the middle of the speaker. I have other models like thr tf-1000's that are mirror imaged and you can tell by looking at the drivers. None of them are center of the speaker cabinet.

This is odd as my TF400 has the drivers to one side of the vertical axis. The manual only shows the right speaker, with the drivers to the left of center, and doesn't mention placement. I bet you can't tell the difference either way, two lefts, two rights, or switched locations.
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post #723 of 1707 Old 05-07-2011, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sydneybird View Post

This is odd as my TF400 has the drivers to one side of the vertical axis. The manual only shows the right speaker, with the drivers to the left of center, and doesn't mention placement. I bet you can't tell the difference either way, two lefts, two rights, or switched locations.

Wow, mine are dead center. My 700's and 1000's are the only ones that have drivers not centered


I just got a pair of tf-600's. They sound amazing.

Oh yeah, for $100.00 too.
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post #724 of 1707 Old 05-13-2011, 08:20 AM
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Hello,

I'm new to the forum, have been trying to read everything. Just picked up a used set of TF700's in great shape on CL for $100. I am redoing my den and wanted something with a nice presence in the room. I remembered these from 10 years ago when my friend had them and can't belive I found a set local. Sound good still, in great shape but I need to replace the grills. So hello everyone, I will keep up with this forum a bit. Any tips on replaceing the grills or anything I should do to keep these sounding great?

Thanks!
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post #725 of 1707 Old 05-13-2011, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LongIsland View Post

Hello,

I'm new to the forum, have been trying to read everything. Just picked up a used set of TF700's in great shape on CL for $100. I am redoing my den and wanted something with a nice presence in the room. I remembered these from 10 years ago when my friend had them and can't belive I found a set local. Sound good still, in great shape but I need to replace the grills. So hello everyone, I will keep up with this forum a bit. Any tips on replaceing the grills or anything I should do to keep these sounding great?

Thanks!

Can't remember the exact thread but I believe the material and where to get it is somewhere here.

"I am NOT suffering from insanity... I happen to be enjoying myself!"

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post #726 of 1707 Old 05-17-2011, 09:32 AM
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I was able to find the thread for the grills. Turns out mine do not have the full sock and have the back screw on plate so replacing the material is not that hard to do. I have found the material and am ordering it shortly.
I am wondering if there is anything else I should replace. I have been on a lot of the blogs and have read different opinions on the TF's and TW's. some people swear by them as the best speakers ever built and others say they were a marketing ploy and a POS. Myself, I like them but am wondering if I could do better on the sound? The look is great, I want to keep these but should I replace anything? Some say that a soft dome tweeter would be better in these, maybe some updated drivers? I do not want to mess them up but am really wondering if there are newer drivers / tweeters that would work well in these enclosures and make them sound / function better?

Anyone have any insight / experience with this?
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post #727 of 1707 Old 05-17-2011, 11:49 AM
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Your best bet is to do what I and others have done and that is to take the time and check over the posts here. If push comes to shove, you might try sending Jamie a pm. I believe he looks in every once-in-a-while.

And anybody who tells you the DCM speakers are a POS is playing with you. Best. speakers. ever. I'm using a pair of TW3s for my fronts and a CX-17 for a center for my 5.1 surround and couldn't be happier.

"I am NOT suffering from insanity... I happen to be enjoying myself!"

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post #728 of 1707 Old 05-17-2011, 12:03 PM
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Thanks! I will keep reading around. I think I will just change the grilles for now and leave the rest alone for a while.

Thanks
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post #729 of 1707 Old 05-22-2011, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LongIsland View Post

I was able to find the thread for the grills. Turns out mine do not have the full sock and have the back screw on plate so replacing the material is not that hard to do. I have found the material and am ordering it shortly.
I am wondering if there is anything else I should replace. I have been on a lot of the blogs and have read different opinions on the TF's and TW's. some people swear by them as the best speakers ever built and others say they were a marketing ploy and a POS. Myself, I like them but am wondering if I could do better on the sound? The look is great, I want to keep these but should I replace anything? Some say that a soft dome tweeter would be better in these, maybe some updated drivers? I do not want to mess them up but am really wondering if there are newer drivers / tweeters that would work well in these enclosures and make them sound / function better?

Anyone have any insight / experience with this?

This has been asked a few times here before on improving the DCM line, but “Hear me now und believe me later...” these speakers are highly engineered to get the best sound from the materials used. Are there better drivers out there, sure, but changing them will have an adverse effect on Steve’s original design. Everything is there for a reason. Do a search for replacing the electrolytic caps (the large value, big fat ones) in this thread. Unless you have a blown driver, there is nothing else that needs replacing.
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post #730 of 1707 Old 05-30-2011, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Hauser View Post

I recently upgraded my preamp with the new Onkyo PR-SC5508 that can add a height channel (2). So, I decided that I had enough parts and started a new project to modify two KX-Center speakers into SurroundScape Centers with TimeWindow Seven time delay circuits and tweeters. They will be mounted at ceiling height angled down on either sides of my projection screen. I can post pictures if anyone is interested.

I'm interested! Please post! I'm planning on doing the EXACT same thing (only to be used as a center channel for a TW3 - TW1 7.1 system).
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post #731 of 1707 Old 05-31-2011, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danislous View Post

I'm interested! Please post! I'm planning on doing the EXACT same thing (only to be used as a center channel for a TW3 - TW1 7.1 system).

I can show what I did to match my TW7's or which would probably be more useful is to duplicate the SurroundScape Center. The difference is in the tweeter used. The TW7 uses a different tweeter and requires a more complex delay circuit. This isn't a benefit unless you have a TW7 tweeter and you're matching to a pair a TW7's. The SurroundScape Center uses the same tweeter as the TF Series Two (600's, 400's etc.) and CX series speakers. You would need a KX-Center donor, table saw, router, other misc. tools along with a multi meter that can measure inductance if you need to rewind some inductors. All the crossovers will have to be modified to some degree. If you can find a TF-600 or TF v6.0 crossover you won't have to rewind any inductors. If you have the TF400 you will just have to rewind the larger inductor on the woofer circuit. Worse case, you can do it with three CX17 crossovers and a lot of rewinding. I'll start with the cabinet rework.
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post #732 of 1707 Old 05-31-2011, 05:44 PM
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First thing to do is to remove all the hardware from the KX- Center cabinet and strip the vinyl covering off using a heat gun or hair dryer to soften the glue. Next you need the table saw to remove the front baffle. Set the fence to remove a ½ of material (the thickness of the baffle) and about a ½ depth. Put he face against the fence and make the cut. Rotate to the other three sides and do the same to remove the front baffle. After that you need to fabricate a new baffle from a least ½ particleboard. I used 3/4 MFD because it would better, but also because I had it on hand. You will have to router in a new single hole for one driver and drill hole for the rubber grommets that hold the grill on. Use the original baffle as a guide. I used Gorilla Glue and clamps to attach the new baffle to the original cabinet. Block sand to blend in the edge. To recover, I used Dayton VL218-BT Black Textured Vinyl Laminate from Parts Express for a perfect match.

Here are some photos.
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post #733 of 1707 Old 06-02-2011, 08:40 AM
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Wow, i didn't realize that you had also upgraded the tweeter on the SScenter's you were building.
Is there a schematic of the original surroundscape center's crossover available? I've seen picts of the thing on this thread, but a circuit diagram would be greatly appreciated.
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post #734 of 1707 Old 06-02-2011, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danislous View Post

Wow, i didn't realize that you had also upgraded the tweeter on the SScenter's you were building.
Is there a schematic of the original surroundscape center's crossover available? I've seen picts of the thing on this thread, but a circuit diagram would be greatly appreciated.

I'll show both, the original SurroundScape center and the modified one with the TW7 tweeter and delay circuit change.
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post #735 of 1707 Old 06-02-2011, 08:17 PM
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Here's a schematic comparison between the TF-600, SurroundScape Center, and my SurroundScape Center project adding TW7 tweeter and time delay circuit.

The easiest crossover to modify to the SurroundScape Center is the TF-600 because you won't have to change any inductors.

First you need to replace R3 (1.8 ohm) with a 15-ohm resistor and send it to ground eliminating the 2nd and 3rd tweeter.

Next, L1 is a large inductor (if anyone has any spare ones, send them my way. I need three more) that went to the woofer (not used) and is not mounted to the TF-600 circuit board anyway.

Last you will have to add C2 and R2 as shown in the SurroundScape Center schematic.
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post #736 of 1707 Old 06-02-2011, 08:42 PM
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As I mentioned earlier, you could use the crossover from the TF-400 and the CX-Series (you would need three CX crossover boards to have enough of the small inductors though) but you would have to rewind some inductors to do it. They need to be the DCM C91 boards.

Here are the TF-400 and the CX-17 schematics and a picture of the back of the C91 board.

More to come.
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post #737 of 1707 Old 06-02-2011, 09:47 PM
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I spent the weekend comparing the DCM CX-27 to the Time Frame TF-400/600 to the Time Window Surround Scape to the TF-2000. For the TF400/600 pair, I used the TF-600 for my left speaker and TF-400 for the right (I only have one of each, well had one of each).

CX-27 is a bookshelf speaker with two rear ports, CX-27 35Hz-20kHz
TF-400/600 are floor standing speakers with one rear port, in the Time Frame family, TF-400 40Hz-20kHz 38x15x8,
TF-600 30Hz-20kHz 41x17x9
Time Window Surround Scape is a floor standing speaker with one rear port, in the Time Window family, TWSS 41x16x12 35Hz- 20kHz
TF-2000 is a floor standing speaker with two front ports, in the Time Frame family. TF-2000 36Hz-18kHz + 2 db, 60x32x11

My receiver is a Sony STR-DA4ES.
My room is 17 X 30 and my chair is 20 feet from the speakers; 17 ft from the front wall.

The CX-27, TF-400, TF-600 and Surround Scape all share the same 3/4 in. tweeter and two 6.5 inch woofers. At the same power level, the CX-27, TF-400 and TF-600 produce almost the same volume, where the Surround Scape drops by about 3db. The Surround Scapes were played as stereo pairs and not in surround mode. The TF-2000 predates the others and use completely different drivers. The TF-2000 takes more power than the CX-27, TF-400 and TF-600, about 5db lower at same power setting.

Listening to Lady Gaga is about the same on all of these speakers; favor goes to the CX-27 for its deep close to the floor pounding bass.

My critical listening was using Dire Straits music: Your Latest Trick (for the trumpet and saxophone solos), Brother in Arms (Thunder), and Money for Nothing (electro-drums and guitar amp). Analog pass-through, no signal processing was used. I didn't experiment with speaker placement. This is my impression using my 51 year old ears:

Comparing CX-27, TF-400/600, and Surround Scape:
In general, the CX-27 sound extremely close to the TF-400/600 and Surround Scape. The attack of drum rim taps and cymbals are the same; very tight and crisp. The CX-27 produces more bass than the TF-400/600, maybe because the ports are closer to the floor. Surround Scapes produce the most bass due to their much larger cabinets, but the bass of the CX-27 can be exaggerated when placed on the floor, which can be great for home theater and dance music. I don't feel the need for a subwoofer for music on any of the speakers. Midrange and highs are essentially the same. The CX-27 produces a dryer sound, that is, less ambiance, more like a studio monitor, more like a small stage with foam on the walls. Front to back imaging is more flat. The soundstage is more constrained to between the speakers with less spaciousness outside the width of the speakers. Trumpet and sax sound really nice and intimate on all three speaker pairs. The Surround Scape produces the widest and deepest sound stage, with the TF-400/600 somewhere in between.

I favor the TF-400/600 over the CX-27 for the more spacious sound; wider and deeper sound stage. The TF-400/600 also seem to isolate the instruments better (the drums to the left, Mark Knopfler a little to the right of center and the guitar to the right. The CX-27's place more sound in the middle. The TF-400/600 and the Surround Scape are extremely close in sound qualities and if you didn't have them side by side you would be very happy with either. The Surround Scape has the potential of producing the widest sound stage if your room has smooth side walls to reflect the sound. They sound more like CX-27's if you have no side walls. Being taller than the TF-400/600, the height of the sound is larger with the Surround Scape.

On Your Latest Trick, the TF-400/600 provides vocals that remind me of being in a front row table at a small jazz club. If small intimate jazz clubs are your thing, these are your speakers. Same would go for acoustic music. The thunder of Brother in Arms is spacious if cranked up. I really like these speakers.

The TF-400/600 and the TF-2000:
Although they have very different speaker drivers, their mid and high frequency range are very close. The TF-2000 takes more power to get the same bass output as the TF-400/600, and they take more power period. The electric drums on Money for Nothing are stunning on the TF-400/600, greater impact and in your face than with the TF-2000. To get the same effect on the TF-2000 I have to really crank up the volume which makes the highs too loud. The spaciousness of the TF-2000 is nothing less than stunning; makes the TF-400/600 sound like studio monitors which they are not. The TF-2000 sound stage is extremely wide, way beyond the sides of the speakers, extremely tall, floor to ceiling, and extremely deep, from inside your head to 20 feet behind the speakers. It is as if my 17x9 foot front wall was one huge sound source. This spaciousness might be too exaggerated on some vocals, where on Your Latest Trick, the vocals are across the sound stage and very close rather than 20 feet back on stage right of center like with the TF-400/600. Interestingly, the instruments are extremely well defined, but the vocals are too spread out on this song. The TF-2000 sounds more like you are in the band instead of in the audience, at least on this song. For this song, I prefer the TF-400/600. The TF-2000 produces a wall of sound where the speakers completely disappear, where the TF-400/600 produces more of a portal of sound between and just beyond the speakers. The guitar sounds really good on the TF-400/600 but, if you had ever been in a band with the guitar amp right next to you (as I had), you would find the TF-2000 sounds just like you are standing next to the amp. It is like the difference between listening to a guitar amp and listening to a recording of a guitar amp. It is simply stunning and realistic on the TF-2000; the TF-2000 turns into a guitar amp. The drum kit in Your Latest Trick (to the left of stage center) sounds uncannily 3 dimensional like you are standing to the right center of the kit and you can tell where each of the drums and cymbals are in 3-D space. Not kiddin'. Now I realize why these were $2000 in 1987.

The thunder in Brother in Arms is in front of you, behind you, and inside of you with the TF-2000. In general the TF-2000 produces more ambiance than all the other speakers, more like you are in a very large room with reflective surfaces. Steve Eberbach once told me that the TF-2000 (no coaxial drivers) will be more sensitive to room acoustics as compared with the TF-400/600 with their coaxial drivers.

I like deep loud bass, so adding my two vintage HRSW10 Hsu sonotube subs with 10 inch woofers gives me back all the electro-drum punch that I need without tweeking the TF-2000. I am jealous of Jamie, though, with his SVS subs that I want for home theater to produce some very loud 15 Hz concussions, which my Hsu's can bottom out on.

I hope you find this info interesting. I would like to hear your comparisons.
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post #738 of 1707 Old 06-03-2011, 01:42 PM
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Hello all, it has been far too long since I visited this dear-to-my-heart thread!

No questions here, just thought some of you might enjoy the current and soon-to-be DCM situation in our family. Since my last post, I have been busy on both eBay and Craigslist acquiring lots of vintage DCM speakers, most of them for my two college age sons. Within the past couple months, they've both entered into living situations where it was ripe to present them. I had them buy the 7.x receiver (budget Pioneer model with slick iPod interface), and then I gave them the speakers.

A: CX-17s
B: CX-17s
Surr1: CX-07s
Surr2: CX-007s
Center: started with CX-Centers, but they were a letdown, so I bought another pair of CX-17s and split them up one to each son.

The condition of the cabinets varied widely, but the sound is still great, and the prices were right (especially from my sons' perspective!)

In my house, I'm still running the TW-3s on A. I acquired two pairs of Time Pieces for Surr1 and Surr2 channels, but I'm waiting for a recarpet job to deploy them. I currently have a Vienna Acoustics center channel, but I also have a spare CX-17 that will probably get a try when I switch my surrounds to the Time Pieces.

I also have a pair of CX-27s Series II in my garage that I use often. They sound great!

I just love that these high-quality speakers can be had today for a fraction of their original cost, and they still sound great. I only wish I had 20-year old ears instead of 50-year old ears, but whatyagonnado...
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post #739 of 1707 Old 06-05-2011, 02:07 PM
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Here are some photos of how the different crossover look like as far as board layout with the TF-400, TF-600, and the SurroundScape Center.
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post #740 of 1707 Old 06-05-2011, 02:40 PM
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To add the extra parts (C9, C10, C11, L6, and L7 along with C12, R3 and R4) for the TW7 tweeter delay circuit requires an additional board. The TW7 crossover uses two C91 boards plus a buildup on a ¼ piece of plywood (45 components total). I wanted everything to mount on the terminal cup, which proved to be a challenge. Luckily I had an early design TF600 crossover that I bought for parts that still had the spring clip terminal cup and used a pre-C91 board that didn't allow the TF600 time delay circuit. It was built on a smaller board that was mounted on a separate piece of ¼ ply.
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post #741 of 1707 Old 06-05-2011, 02:51 PM
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Here is a shot of the board buildup with the rewound inductors and new caps and resistors waiting to be installed. Next a couple pictures of the finished crossover.
Note that the spacing (approximately 1-1/4” apart) on the inductor pairs (L4 and L5 for the SSC and the added L6 and L7 for TW7 tweeter) are somewhat critical because they are “magnetically coupled”.
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post #742 of 1707 Old 06-05-2011, 03:23 PM
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The SurroundScape Center uses the D16 shielded 6-1/2 driver that has a plastic ring that snaps on the front of the mounting rim of the basket. It was used in the later DCM products including the KX series. Both my donor KX-Centers used two of them with a horn tweeter. They're basically the same as the earlier 6-1/2 160W1502 poly driver with the bucking magnet but with the added metal cup.
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post #743 of 1707 Old 06-05-2011, 03:41 PM
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The tweeter for the SSC is the standard one that used the small bucking magnet as shown in the first photo below. The next two photos show the comparison of the standard tweeter (less magnet) on the right and the TW7 D23 tweeter on the left. The D23 will fit in the mounting screen without modification, but it's a tight fit.

Note the difference in the size of the magnet and that the tweeter dome of the TW7 is diamond coated
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post #744 of 1707 Old 06-05-2011, 04:12 PM
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There is a minor difference in the screen that holds the tweeter. It's about an 1/8 deeper than the ones used in the TF and CX series as shown in the first picture (the top is a SSC and the bottom is a CX-17). This is to accommodate the fact that the driver is not mounted as deep as in the TF/CX speakers and the plastic ring stands proud of the front baffle by a ¼. The standard screen won't work with this setup. I'm assuming it's a diffraction issue and probably should ask Steve about it. I suppose you could simply add spacers behind the mounting screws to bring a stock screen out the additional 1/8 but that raises another problem with the snap in grill.
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post #745 of 1707 Old 06-05-2011, 04:38 PM
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The first two photos show the only difference between the SurroundScape Center and the KX-Center grill. It's the height difference between pegs that push into the rubber grommets that are mounted on the front baffle. The SSC holds the grill out an additional ¼ to accommodate the deeper tweeter screen as shown in the last photo. I decided to recess the 6-1/2 driver enough to use the standard screen and use the KX-Center's grill as is. The fact that I modified two of them for height channels, I didn't think that it would be that critical in speaker performance. I'm sure Steve had his reason, again, I'd have to ask.

There was also a difference in the thickness of the felt that is between the screens. The SSC was slightly heavier. Possibly because of the smaller sealed box of the SSC compared to the TF/CX ported enclosures?
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post #746 of 1707 Old 06-05-2011, 05:01 PM
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The first photo show one end of the original SSC, they have a gloss black laminate veneer as end caps. I didn't add these because of the reflection off the projector screen.

The second is the back, uncovered, showing the recess added for the tweeter level control.

Lastly, here are a few shots of one of the finished speakers using the TW7 tweeter and crossover mods.

I hope this was helpful.
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post #747 of 1707 Old 06-05-2011, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Hauser View Post

The first photo show one end of the original SSC, they have a gloss black laminate veneer as end caps. I didn't add these because of the reflection off the projector screen.

The second is the back, uncovered, showing the recess added for the tweeter level control.

Lastly, here are a few shots of one of the finished speakers using the TW7 tweeter and crossover mods.

I hope this was helpful.

Wow..amazing work. Are any of the passive components found in the kx center crossovers similar to those found in the ss center ?
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post #748 of 1707 Old 06-06-2011, 05:51 AM
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Wow! I'm speechless! You sure are dedicated. Your level of knowledge is so far beyond mine that most of what you did is lost on me. But it is way cool.

Television: Mitsubishi WD65737 DLP
Processor: Emotiva UMC-200
Amps: Carver AV 806x/Behringer EP4000
Mains: DCM TimeFrame 600 Center: AT 453C
Surrounds: AT 251.1 Sub: Danley DTS-10
Blu Ray: Panasonic DMP-BD655
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post #749 of 1707 Old 06-06-2011, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Danislous View Post

Wow..amazing work. Are any of the passive components found in the kx center crossovers similar to those found in the ss center ?

The inductors could be rewound, but you would need two more of the smaller ones. If the rating is the same on the bulb you could use that. The only thing else is the terminal cup.
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post #750 of 1707 Old 06-14-2011, 02:51 PM
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My wife is trying to make thin out the herd. We don't have our big house anymore, so almost all of my gear is unused. Just throwing it out there, in case anyone is interested. PM Me.

Can sell: any number of cx-17's have 3 pair black,

cx-31,
cx-07--garage set. pretty beat up.

original time window,

tf-1000
tf-700
tf-6002 pairs of tf-400.

Keeping my TFV-10.0's. Also keeping my recently acquired tfv 6.0's!!!
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