Whatever happened to DCM's Steve Eberbach? - Page 32 - AVS Forum
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post #931 of 1665 Old 03-25-2012, 09:55 AM
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The front baffle is level in the cabinet not angled like the front looks. The top of the cabinet baffle is 5/8 then you get too the bottom of the front baffle it is 3/4. The sides of the cabinets is where I am lost and I am hoping Jamie can get a answer on this from Steve or if Jamie knows. The side of the cabinet is 1" but the part that comes passed the front drivers is 1/2" so is the side cabinet pieces two 1/2 pieces of wood or is it a 1" piece cut out too lay the front baffle on it? Tweeters are the same as the TF600's and other TF lines. Not a TW7 tweeter which is a hard dome coated.

Pic shows the front cracked tweeter from DCM. I removed the screw for pic.
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post #932 of 1665 Old 03-25-2012, 09:56 AM
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Tweeter from TF600 and Tweeter mounted in lens from TFv10.0. (NOT TF1000!)
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post #933 of 1665 Old 03-25-2012, 10:11 AM
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looks like I am having issues today as well.

Plus James, I thought you sent me pictures from an iPhone. I have the galaxys 2 as well. Good phone, smart man!
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post #934 of 1665 Old 03-25-2012, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCMlover View Post

looks like I am having issues today as well.

Plus James, I thought you sent me pictures from an iPhone. I have the galaxys 2 as well. Good phone, smart man!

I hate apple and never would buy a product from them.

I had to resize all the dam pics but I got them on here. lol
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post #935 of 1665 Old 03-25-2012, 10:35 AM
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Forgot to say this is my second pair of TFv10.0's and they are used. I have a mint pair when I got them new in like 1996 or 1997 don't remember.
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post #936 of 1665 Old 03-25-2012, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamespblues View Post

Not to really bring this up again but I want too get the right info to people that want too learn and do a DCM project them self's. First thing sorry Jonny20 that you feel at way and I never knocked your project just asked questions. Sorry. Why I was bringing this help again because he said the 6" is the same as the 6.5" mid that is not true! The old DCM 6.5" mid has no Plastic ring on it which the 6" has and it does change how the drivers sits in the cabinet as Jamie founded out in his center/TW7 project. The rubber surround on the 6.5" is smaller in width then the 6" mid,dust cover in center of cone is not the same on the 6.5" compared too the 6". The 6.5" from basket rim to basket rim is 6 3/8 and the 6" mid from rim to rim is 6 5/8 and the 6.5" looks to be a deep cone then the 6". (Maybe that is why it is a 6.5" not sure.) In short they are different in more then one way and it is not just a part number change. (There are more different things with this mids but you get the picture.

Jamespblues

Could you show photos of the drivers (6.5" vs. the 6") that you are making the comparison to? It would help to understand the differences better because I'm at somewhat at a loss.

Also to what post # were you referring to when you mentioned:
"The old DCM 6.5" mid has no Plastic ring on it which the 6" has and it does change how the drivers sits in the cabinet as Jamie founded out in his center/TW7 project."?

Thanks, Jamie
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post #937 of 1665 Old 03-26-2012, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Hauser View Post

Jamespblues

Could you show photos of the drivers (6.5" vs. the 6") that you are making the comparison to? It would help to understand the differences better because I'm at somewhat at a loss.

Also to what post # were you referring to when you mentioned:
"The old DCM 6.5" mid has no Plastic ring on it which the 6" has and it does change how the drivers sits in the cabinet as Jamie founded out in his center/TW7 project."?

Thanks, Jamie

Post #742 and #744 I am working on the pic soon.
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post #938 of 1665 Old 03-26-2012, 12:42 PM
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The first pic is wrong, it is stamped steel on both and one is painted the other is coated. So they are both the same sorry for that.
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post #939 of 1665 Old 03-26-2012, 12:46 PM
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So they are not the same but very close. I think the spec for each driver is not the same but close to.
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post #940 of 1665 Old 03-26-2012, 12:52 PM
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here are some spec on the Midranges

 

10.0 6in spec 2.PDF 216.08984375k . file

 

6in mid specs.PDF 323.1875k . file
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post #941 of 1665 Old 03-27-2012, 06:54 AM
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Let me help address a few questions or issues here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamespblues View Post

The mid is flush mounted in the cabinet with a 1/2 wood bracing it. I am guessing it is flush for timing the tweeter/mid to the 10" woofer. Bass moves slower then high sounds so by moving the tweeter/mid back the sound would hit your listening sit at the same time. (I am guessing this but Jamie or Steve may have more info on this.)



While you are right that "Bass moves slower then high sounds" and some designs set the tweeter farther back than the mid/woofer (this requires tilting the front baffle back at quite an angle), this is not the case hear. Whether the driver is mounted flushed or recessed has more to do with baffle diffraction issues.

Here's an example I found.
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post #942 of 1665 Old 03-27-2012, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Hauser
Jamespblues

Could you show photos of the drivers (6.5" vs. the 6") that you are making the comparison to? It would help to understand the differences better because I'm at somewhat at a loss.

Also to what post # were you referring to when you mentioned:
"The old DCM 6.5" mid has no Plastic ring on it which the 6" has and it does change how the drivers sits in the cabinet as Jamie founded out in his center/TW7 project."?

Thanks, Jamie



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamespblues View Post

Post #742 and #744 I am working on the pic soon.

Referring back to posts #742 and #744, I was working on modifying a KX-Center Series II into a SurroundScape Center and adding the TW7 tweeter and it's delay network.

Post #742 is showing the difference between the earlier 160W1502 6.5" and the later "D16" 6.5" driver. As stated, "They're basically the same as the earlier 6-1/2" "160W1502" poly driver with the bucking magnet but with the added metal cup." The D16 also differs with the snap plastic ring instead of a gasket, which was a running production change to simplify assembling the driver.

Post #744 is showing in part the difference in the recess between the KX-Center Series II into a SurroundScape Center. They use the exact same D16 driver. The plastic ring on it does not change how the driver sits in the cabinet. I talked to Steve about this when I was doing the project and it was a matter of clearance for the coax mounted tweeter. The KX-Center uses a separately mounted horn tweeter.
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post #943 of 1665 Old 03-27-2012, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamespblues View Post

.

Attached Thumbnails








Whether DCM is calling the driver 6" or 6.5" (6KB1448), I believe they are referring to the 160W1502, 160PO301, or the D16. According to Steve these are basicaly the same driver with the only mimor improvement being the addition of the shieding cup on the 160PO301 and the D16. The most important thing they have in commond is the dimpled poly cone that was special made for DCM by a Japanese supplier.
 
The comparison of the drivers:

Compare1.jpg
Both baskets are stamped steel. The 160W1502 on the left is painted black and the D16 is just cadmium-plated steel for corrosion resistant as oppose to paint.

Compare2.jpg
Not all D16 had the addition tab for dual voice coils (or the plastic ring for that matter). The D03 was dual voice coil driver, which again was basically the same as the others and was used in a few designs, one being the OW-2 (wall mount)

Compare3-4.jpg
These differences are neglitable and probably a result of changing supply venders.

Compare5.jpg
You may have a bent rim on one or the shielding cup is tilted on the D16. The difference should be roughly the thickness of the additional shielding cup.
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post #944 of 1665 Old 03-27-2012, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamespblues View Post

here are some spec on the Midranges

Attached Files
10.0 6in spec 2.PDF (216.1 KB, 3 views)
6in mid specs.PDF (323.2 KB, 4 views)

The spec sheets are confusing. While the parameters are similar, they’re different, but they both refer to the same 6KB1448 part number for the driver.
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post #945 of 1665 Old 03-27-2012, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Hauser View Post

Attached Thumbnails








Whether DCM is calling the driver 6" or 6.5" (6KB1448), I believe they are referring to the 160W1502, 160PO301, or the D16. According to Steve these are basicaly the same driver with the only mimor improvement being the addition of the shieding cup on the 160PO301 and the D16. The most important thing they have in commond is the dimpled poly cone that was special made for DCM by a Japanese supplier.
 
The comparison of the drivers:

Compare1.jpg
Both baskets are stamped steel. The 160W1502 on the left is painted black and the D16 is just cadmium-plated steel for corrosion resistant as oppose to paint.

Compare2.jpg
Not all D16 had the addition tab for dual voice coils (or the plastic ring for that matter). The D03 was dual voice coil driver, which again was basically the same as the others and was used in a few designs, one being the OW-2 (wall mount)

Compare3-4.jpg
These differences are neglitable and probably a result of changing supply venders.

Compare5.jpg
You may have a bent rim on one or the shielding cup is tilted on the D16. The difference should be roughly the thickness of the additional shielding cup.

It is the cup and the plastic ring that makes the D16 (6") higher but yes for some reason the D16 is bent. The spec for the mid came from the new DCM company so not sure if there info is right on. Yes,you are right it is a coating on the D16 after you said that I filed it down and the steel came though. I would think they would sound a little different because of the rubber surround being different and the cones not really the same in how deep they are. I am guessing you can't install a mid with plastic ring in a older DCM that did not have a plastic ring because it will hit the Lens. Is that right?
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post #946 of 1665 Old 03-27-2012, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Hauser View Post

Let me help address a few questions or issues here.






While you are right that "Bass moves slower then high sounds" and some designs set the tweeter farther back than the mid/woofer (this requires tilting the front baffle back at quite an angle), this is not the case hear. Whether the driver is mounted flushed or recessed has more to do with baffle diffraction issues.

Here's an example I found.

Thanks for the info and that sounds right and I believe the TFv6.0 is not surface mounted by the mid/tweeter. Maybe it is because the cabinet sides come pass the drives more on the 10.0 then the 6.0 TFv. Steve did put sometime in every speaker model he made, I give him that. lol
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post #947 of 1665 Old 03-27-2012, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamespblues View Post

It is the cup and the plastic ring that makes the D16 (6") higher but yes for some reason the D16 is bent. The spec for the mid came from the new DCM company so not sure if there info is right on. Yes,you are right it is a coating on the D16 after you said that I filed it down and the steel came though. I would think they would sound a little different because of the rubber surround being different and the cones not really the same in how deep they are. I am guessing you can't install a mid with plastic ring in a older DCM that did not have a plastic ring because it will hit the Lens. Is that right?

Look close at the shielding cup, the one I have was tilted/cocked a little when it was installed. It shouldn't effect the performance. I believe if you remove the fibrous gasket from the older driver, the ring should just snap in. The reason for the change was that when the butyl surround was glued to the basket, the plastic ring could be snapped in to hold it in place while it was setting up, speeding up production
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post #948 of 1665 Old 03-27-2012, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Hauser View Post

Look close at the shielding cup, the one I have was tilted/cocked a little when it was installed. It shouldn't effect the performance. I believe if you remove the fibrous gasket from the older driver, the ring should just snap in. The reason for the change was that when the butyl surround was glued to the basket, the plastic ring could be snapped in to hold it in place while it was setting up, speeding up production

Yes, it is the shielding cup that is on tilted and it is not bent. I just took apart the second 10.0 today and it was put together different then the other 10.0. I think some times he had a guy that built the speakers with care and a other that just put it together with no real care just as long as it works. Both 10.0 had the stuffing glued too the 10" woofer magnet. I guess they would glue the stuffing too the speaker and install the speaker and the stuffing at the same time. Sometimes the white and orange wires too the woofer where on the right and sometimes on the left, I guess some guys did not follow everything Steve wanted for install. Steve had on one of the wiring papers I have is too tie the wires together at like every 6in but know one did that. (In the speakers I seen.) I am guessing DCM was really busy at one point and just banged things out super fast and missed so stuff. I like how Steve reused a lot of stuff in projects like on the 10.0's the screws for the terminal cups are the same screws that he mounted the rear tweeters with so a cost saver there.
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post #949 of 1665 Old 04-12-2012, 03:21 PM
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Back at it.

I was able to get the tops, bases and fluted sidepieces into the paint shop. My brother has an auto glass company that does replacement work at several local collision shops. He was able to get use of the paint booth after hours at Mac’s Body Shop. This first visit is for just for applying the PPG epoxy automotive primer, which needs to put on in several heavy coats because the MDF really sucks it up. Later, everything will have to be wet sanded out prior to the finish coat being applied.

Here are a couple of shot’s of Darryl applying one of the final coats.






In this picture he’s applying what is called a "tracer coat" of black paint from a spray can. A tracer coat is really just a fine coat put on a primered surface before sanding to act as a guide when removing material.



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post #950 of 1665 Old 04-12-2012, 03:51 PM
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Here is one of the fluted sidepieces ready for sanding. Notice the black tracer coat.




I'm using a 400-grit paper wet with a ¼" x 1-1/2" wood dowel to sand down the inside of the flutes.

Basically you sand using water as a lubricant and as a means to keep your paper from clogging by periodically
rinsing it in small tray or bucket of water. You sand until the tracer coat is gone and being very careful not to "burn through" the primer coat exposing the MDF.

I forgot how tedious this can be. I spent approximately 1-1/2 to 2 hours per piece




After the flutes are done, I work on the flat area.



This picture shows the piece after the flutes and flat areas are done. Notice the fine line where the tracer coat is still left on the small radiuses. This is then sanded lightly by hand because of the risk of burn through. Always leave the edges for last.



Finished piece.


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post #951 of 1665 Old 04-12-2012, 04:02 PM
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Next up is one of the bases. These pieces are easier because they’re not as intricate as the tops.







Then one of the tops.



This picture is a close up of the flat surface partially sanded. Notice how the trace coat fades out the more you sand. What you’re seeing is that the black remains in the low areas in the primer. When it’s completely gone, you have a smooth surface void of any orange peel.




Some of the completed pieces.


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post #952 of 1665 Old 04-13-2012, 03:27 PM
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As always Jamie, living vicariously through you. Your hard work seems to be paying off.

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post #953 of 1665 Old 04-14-2012, 03:58 PM
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Is the DCM QED worth anything today? Would the caps be crap? Performance then and now? Anyone know the speaker compliment and arrangment?

Thanks in advance,

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post #954 of 1665 Old 04-16-2012, 06:44 AM
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In between waiting to get back into the spray booth, I finished up on installing the grill cloth.

This is the original OEM cloth from Trend Tex. It was used on the later TimeFrame, CX, and KX speakers. You would think that black is black, but a few years ago when I was replacing the grill cloth on my original TW7’s, I purchase black grill cloth from two different sources and could not get a good match. They both looked bad against the piano black finish on the tops and fluted sidepieces. Checking back with Steve, he remembered who the original supplier was. I found they were willing to sell to me direct so I bought 17 yards and have used it on all my projects.

This photo is with the grill cloth pulled over the entire speaker and gathered loosely at the top. This is the right speaker, notice the seam runs about 5/8" from the back corner on the left.






After that, I pulled the excess material down and taped of the area I didn’t want to get the adhesive spray on. The factory would not have done this and would have just sprayed the outer edge.




After spraying the edges with 3M Super 77 Multipurpose Adhesive, I pulled the cloth back over the top and stretch it out as I worked it into the adhesive.





From there, it’s just a matter of trimming the excess with a razor blade and removing the masking tape.


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post #955 of 1665 Old 04-16-2012, 07:04 AM
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With the speaker turned upside down and the bottom finished, the terminal cups openings need to be cut out.





Here they are completed. The opening for the port tube is cut out but the tube is not installed yet.





Here's a comparison with one speaker's grill cloth done. Notice the Mod-ezz fasteners installed to hold the black top caps on.






Lastly, the two speakers trimmed out except for the piano black tops, bases, and fluted sidepieces.

Before:


After:


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Been watching your progress. Certainly a labor of love. What would you say was the touchiest part of the project?

"I am NOT suffering from insanity... I happen to be enjoying myself!"

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post #957 of 1665 Old 04-16-2012, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
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Been watching your progress. Certainly a labor of love. What would you say was the touchiest part of the project?


That depends on what you mean by touchiest.
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post #958 of 1665 Old 04-17-2012, 06:23 PM
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Let's try that again. What gave you the most difficulty?

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post #959 of 1665 Old 04-18-2012, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
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Let's try that again. What gave you the most difficulty?


Probably re-creating the Spectral Balance Control decal and the brass signature plaque. It took way more time to do the artwork then I realized. I was new to using CorelDRAW and there was a slight learning curve that I had to get past first. Also, to reproduce the decal was a challenge. The originals were gold lettering silk screened on dull black vinyl. No one locally would do it. Through a lot of trial and error, I came up with printing the black background on a clear transparency (the lettering staying clear) and using a self adhering gold vinyl on the back. It did a nice job of reproducing the metallic look in the gold that I could not get with printing the gold lettering with the black background.

The plaque was another problem. The original was etched, not engraved, and with an un-coated mill finish. Minimal cost for etching was around $200 for the pair which is not very cost effective. There are several DIY ways of etching brass; it can be done electrolytically or with an acid to get the deep recesses. I experimented with both with mixed results. The problem is protecting the surface that you don’t want etched. The DIY method is to use a laser printer to print a mirror and color negative (black and white) image and then iron it the brass. The toner will stick to the brass and act as a mask. It was tough to get a good clean edge with either process. What finally work was having a professional engraver make the plaque ($13 a piece) which consisted of lacquer coated brass that had the lacquer finish engraved off for the lettering and exposes the brass that was then chemically oxidized to darken it. While this was not exactly what I wanted, it did provide me with a perfectly masked surface for etching, which I did electrolytically with excellent results. After that, I filled in the etched lettering with semi-gloss black paint. Once that was dry, I used double-sided carpet tape to attach the back of the plaque to a small block of wood. From there I adhered a sheet 320 grit sand paper to a piece of ¼’ plate glass for a flat surface and set up a straight edge guide to run the block back and forth on to remove the lacquer finish and sand a mill finish on the front of the plaque.

These two items where the most difficult for me because they were both something that I haven’t done before. While the other parts of the project were still a challenge, I have had previous experience with most of the work.
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post #960 of 1665 Old 04-23-2012, 03:03 PM
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Interesting. I'm more of a woodworker than I am an electronics whiz. I never would have guessed the etching process was the most difficult. My mother, God bless her soul, used to work for an engraving company. That would have been right up her alley.

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