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post #1711 of 1738 Old 02-03-2015, 05:47 PM
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I could use some advice from anybody that has replaced the socks on TW3's. I am replacing the ones on my speakers and have an issue with the area around the smaller inboard drivers. The center mounted tweeter appears to be mounted too far forward. As a result, once the grill and acoustical matting is installed over them they protrude about 1/4" beyond the face of the speaker cabinet. This creates a bulge once a sock is installed. You can see that bulge on the right hand of the speaker in the picture above. The second speaker in the pair also has this issue.

Has anybody else run into this? If so did you find a solution?

I was thinking I might be able to carefully bend the tweeter supports so that the tweeter sits further down into the driver. But I am concerned about pushing it so far into the driver that the driver hits the back of the tweeter or that it impairs the sound in some way. I'm wondering how close the back of the tweeter can be to the driver and still be safe?

I'd appreciate any advice I can get from anybody that's run into this before.
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post #1712 of 1738 Old 02-05-2015, 09:45 PM
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I recently acquired a Surroundscape Center (yes the one that was on ebay at the end of 2014) and noticed the bass is significantly lower than a cx-17. Presumably this is to be expected as the surrounscape center is sealed while the cx-17 has a single port, but I was wondering if anyone can confirm this. Supposedly the cx-17 is rated as being 45Hz to 20kHz while the surroundscape center is 50Hz to 20kHz, but the surroundscape center really doesnt come in till around 65Hz. I'm almost temped to continue using the cx-17 as a center, unless someone convinces me otherwise. Opinions?
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post #1713 of 1738 Old 02-09-2015, 10:59 AM
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Circuit board attached to wood block

I have a pair of Time Window 3s and I'm preparing to put new caps in. I wanted to disconnect the circuit board from the wood plate and I found one standard looking wood screw...easy enough, but is there another screw in the middle of the inductor in the lower corner of the board?
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post #1714 of 1738 Old 02-10-2015, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyTW3 View Post


I could use some advice from anybody that has replaced the socks on TW3's. I am replacing the ones on my speakers and have an issue with the area around the smaller inboard drivers. The center mounted tweeter appears to be mounted too far forward. As a result, once the grill and acoustical matting is installed over them they protrude about 1/4" beyond the face of the speaker cabinet. This creates a bulge once a sock is installed. You can see that bulge on the right hand of the speaker in the picture above. The second speaker in the pair also has this issue.

Has anybody else run into this? If so did you find a solution?

I was thinking I might be able to carefully bend the tweeter supports so that the tweeter sits further down into the driver. But I am concerned about pushing it so far into the driver that the driver hits the back of the tweeter or that it impairs the sound in some way. I'm wondering how close the back of the tweeter can be to the driver and still be safe?

I'd appreciate any advice I can get from anybody that's run into this before.
That's one scary looking bulge! They do stick out some, here's a couple of pictures of mine when I did the remake. They're flush now because I added about a 1/4" of dampening material on the outside of the cabinet. You could probably push them in some, but not enough to make them flush.
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post #1715 of 1738 Old 02-10-2015, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Datzme View Post
I recently acquired a Surroundscape Center (yes the one that was on ebay at the end of 2014) and noticed the bass is significantly lower than a cx-17. Presumably this is to be expected as the surrounscape center is sealed while the cx-17 has a single port, but I was wondering if anyone can confirm this. Supposedly the cx-17 is rated as being 45Hz to 20kHz while the surroundscape center is 50Hz to 20kHz, but the surroundscape center really doesnt come in till around 65Hz. I'm almost temped to continue using the cx-17 as a center, unless someone convinces me otherwise. Opinions?
The Surroundscape Center is the better choice. I would cross them over at 80Hz.
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post #1716 of 1738 Old 02-10-2015, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by hifiguy58 View Post
I have a pair of Time Window 3s and I'm preparing to put new caps in. I wanted to disconnect the circuit board from the wood plate and I found one standard looking wood screw...easy enough, but is there another screw in the middle of the inductor in the lower corner of the board?
There wasn't on mine. There may be some two sided foam that is still holding them in place after you removed the single screw. Here is a photo of the underside of the crossover board. You can see that there are two other holes located under the inductors, but they were not used.
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post #1717 of 1738 Old 02-10-2015, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by hifiguy58 View Post
I have a pair of Time Window 3s and I'm preparing to put new caps in. I wanted to disconnect the circuit board from the wood plate and I found one standard looking wood screw...easy enough, but is there another screw in the middle of the inductor in the lower corner of the board?
I did have a second screw holding the crossover to the bottom of my TW3's. It was in the center of a square inductor on the corner of the board. I you look at the picture on my crossover in post 1058 (page 36) it was in the center of the inductor in the bottom right corner of the crossover. There is a round tube in the center of the inductor and the screw was in the bottom of that tube.

The tube was half filled with hot glue so I had to use a heat gun to soften the glue and then was able to get the glue out.
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post #1718 of 1738 Old 02-10-2015, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Jamie Hauser View Post
That's one scary looking bulge! They do stick out some, here's a couple of pictures of mine when I did the remake. They're flush now because I added about a 1/4" of dampening material on the outside of the cabinet. You could probably push them in some, but not enough to make them flush.
Jamie, thanks for your input. I have been messing around with one speaker and was able to get the tweeter set back farther. I got the new sock installed and although there is still a bulge it is no where what is was before. The wire mesh seems to be holding the cloth away. It is as if once the mesh is installed and stapled tight around the perimeter it causes the center to become domed and more rigid.

As big as the bulge was I was surprised that it would have gotten out of the factory. I am assuming that they would typically have been flat when fabricated. All parts are original and it appears that nobody has ever taken them apart since they were originally built. The only staple holes are for the ones I took out.

I am not sure if it will sit well with me the way it turned out - might rub my picky nature the wrong way.

Before reading your post I had thought about padding out the cabinet. My thought was to just pad out the 2 front faces with something like 1/4 inch plywood and then rewrap the whole cabinet with new headliner material. If you have a better idea about what to pad out the cabinet with I'm all ears. I also thought about just adding a second layer of headliner material over the existing one which is in really good shape - that might be enough to lose the bulge.

On a totally unrelated matter. On the last page I had posted (#1708) about a friend that just got some used TF-600. I want to redo the crossovers for him and I was trying to see if anybody knew what the value/quantity of electrolytic and mylar capacitors are on one crossover. He lives out of town and I can't get my hands on them to look for myself. If you know what they might be I'd appreciate you letting me know.

Thanks again for your help, not only on this issue but all the help you've given me over the years.
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post #1719 of 1738 Old 02-10-2015, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyTW3 View Post
Jamie, thanks for your input. I have been messing around with one speaker and was able to get the tweeter set back farther. I got the new sock installed and although there is still a bulge it is no where what is was before. The wire mesh seems to be holding the cloth away. It is as if once the mesh is installed and stapled tight around the perimeter it causes the center to become domed and more rigid.

As big as the bulge was I was surprised that it would have gotten out of the factory. I am assuming that they would typically have been flat when fabricated. All parts are original and it appears that nobody has ever taken them apart since they were originally built. The only staple holes are for the ones I took out.

I am not sure if it will sit well with me the way it turned out - might rub my picky nature the wrong way.

Before reading your post I had thought about padding out the cabinet. My thought was to just pad out the 2 front faces with something like 1/4 inch plywood and then rewrap the whole cabinet with new headliner material. If you have a better idea about what to pad out the cabinet with I'm all ears. I also thought about just adding a second layer of headliner material over the existing one which is in really good shape - that might be enough to lose the bulge.

On a totally unrelated matter. On the last page I had posted (#1708) about a friend that just got some used TF-600. I want to redo the crossovers for him and I was trying to see if anybody knew what the value/quantity of electrolytic and mylar capacitors are on one crossover. He lives out of town and I can't get my hands on them to look for myself. If you know what they might be I'd appreciate you letting me know.

Thanks again for your help, not only on this issue but all the help you've given me over the years.
Check out post #63 . I used 1/8" Armstrong floor tile (commercial grade dense vinyl) adhered with clear silicone to just the front baffles.

Instead of using the head liner foam, I used a denser rubber foam similar to this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Con-Tact-...1-06/100388906 and used 3M spray adhesive to hold it on.

As far as the caps go, each crossover uses one 15uf 50v NP electrolytic, one 1.5uf and three 3.0uf 100v film.
Here's a picture and the schematic:
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post #1720 of 1738 Old 02-11-2015, 02:18 PM
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There wasn't on mine. There may be some two sided foam that is still holding them in place after you removed the single screw. Here is a photo of the underside of the crossover board. You can see that there are two other holes located under the inductors, but they were not used.
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I did have a second screw holding the crossover to the bottom of my TW3's. It was in the center of a square inductor on the corner of the board. I you look at the picture on my crossover in post 1058 (page 36) it was in the center of the inductor in the bottom right corner of the crossover. There is a round tube in the center of the inductor and the screw was in the bottom of that tube.

The tube was half filled with hot glue so I had to use a heat gun to soften the glue and then was able to get the glue out.

Thanks guys...It turned out there were screws in the middle of the inductors. I've got the caps out, just waiting for a delivery from Erse. I've gone through pretty much this whole thread here...good information.

I've got a pair of Time Window 1a's (the ones with ports on both sides) and I'm hoping I can get the 3's to sound as good as they are. I mean these things are incredible...they image better than anything I've ever had. They are truly intoxicating, music just pops out of these things! The 1a's were built around 1980/early 80's...and the 3's were built in May, 1989 (I have the original boxes). Yet the 1a's sound lively, engaging, while the 3's are a bit slow and dull. Fingers are crossed...I've read changing the caps on the 3's have done wonders.

A few thoughts on room placement, I'm able to have speakers about 60" from the wall behind them, and 30" from the side walls...I'm hoping the reason the 3's aren't sounding as good as the 1a's is just due to the old caps, and not because the listening space isn't wide enough...which is about 12.5' x 17'. Actually, It's an upstairs loft so most of the back wall is missing

I'd post pictures but I don't have enough posts...again thanks for the help.
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post #1721 of 1738 Old 02-12-2015, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Jamie Hauser View Post
Check out post #63 . I used 1/8" Armstrong floor tile (commercial grade dense vinyl) adhered with clear silicone to just the front baffles.

Instead of using the head liner foam, I used a denser rubber foam similar to this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Con-Tact-...1-06/100388906 and used 3M spray adhesive to hold it on.

As far as the caps go, each crossover uses one 15uf 50v NP electrolytic, one 1.5uf and three 3.0uf 100v film.
Thanks for referring me back to the rebuild of your 3's. I read back through the posts. I'm curious about why you felt you wanted to dampen the cabinet for the speakers. Was it something that Steve suggested? What did you notice related to the sound of the speaker once the dampening was added?

Thanks for the info on the caps.
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post #1722 of 1738 Old 02-12-2015, 06:30 AM
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I've got a pair of Time Window 1a's (the ones with ports on both sides) and I'm hoping I can get the 3's to sound as good as they are. I mean these things are incredible...they image better than anything I've ever had. They are truly intoxicating, music just pops out of these things! The 1a's were built around 1980/early 80's...and the 3's were built in May, 1989 (I have the original boxes). Yet the 1a's sound lively, engaging, while the 3's are a bit slow and dull. Fingers are crossed...I've read changing the caps on the 3's have done wonders.

A few thoughts on room placement, I'm able to have speakers about 60" from the wall behind them, and 30" from the side walls...I'm hoping the reason the 3's aren't sounding as good as the 1a's is just due to the old caps, and not because the listening space isn't wide enough...which is about 12.5' x 17'. Actually, It's an upstairs loft so most of the back wall is missing.
I struggled a lot trying to get the sound on my 3's right. I bought them used. I changed both the electrolytic and mylar caps which made a big difference. But I had a pair of TF-1000's that I was comparing them to and the 3's just sounded dull compared to them.

I completely disassembled them. I checked the continuity/resistance on the variable resistors, the speakers and the wiring. I even desoldered the resistors on the crossover and checked their values to see if they were in spec. Everything checked out fine and within spec. And still they sounded off. I was trying to figure it out for months. Jamie was helping me out a lot and he was even kind enough to speak with Steve about my issues. I couldn't figure out for the life of me what was wrong with them.

Eventually, I came across a drawing of a pair of 3's side by side and it was like a bolt of lightening hit me. I noticed that in the drawing it showed that the ports on the speakers were on the outboard panel of each speaker and I knew I had them positioned with the ports on the inside panels. It turns out that on the pair I have the labels on the back top side of the speakers were reversed at the factory. The right label was on the left speaker and the left label was right speaker. So when I set them up (per the instruction manual) with the arrows both pointing to the center the speakers were reversed.

My buddy was listening to them in the living room when I figured this out. I ran into the living room and shut off the stereo, switched the speakers around, and boom! They were instantly "fixed". We just sat there with our mouths open. To this day it still cracks me up to think about how much music has been listened to through those speakers since they were built and how much the previous owners missed out on.

Regarding placement, my living room is 15'6" x 38" and my 7's face down the length of the room so that back wall is quite a ways away. They are set about 3' back from the back wall and the side walls. The imaging and sound stage are fantastic. I found that if I moved them closer to the walls the sound stage was wider but I seemed to lose the center stage. This was not really an issue with multi-channel sound with a center speaker. But it did not sound quite right with 2 channel music. My speakers are about 9 feet apart and my power spot on the couch is about 10 feet from the speakers. This seemed to be the best positioning for my room.
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post #1723 of 1738 Old 02-12-2015, 11:59 AM
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Thanks for referring me back to the rebuild of your 3's. I read back through the posts. I'm curious about why you felt you wanted to dampen the cabinet for the speakers. Was it something that Steve suggested? What did you notice related to the sound of the speaker once the dampening was added?

Thanks for the info on the caps.
I don't remember if Steve specifically told me to dampen the front baffles on the TW3's or if I decided to do it after a discussion we had while I was working on The TW7-Center, here: Whatever happened to DCM's Steve Eberbach?
and here: Whatever happened to DCM's Steve Eberbach?

The Armstrong tile was something I picked up while modding some CD and DVD players. It was a cheap but effective way of dampening their chassis so I used it in the TW7-Center and the TW3 project.

The dense rubber foam (Black Drawer/Shelf Liner) was readily available at the time and also worked well. I didn't want to bother tracking down head liner material then.

Did it make a difference? I like to think so, it certainly didn't hurt. It was quite awhile ago, I really was just experimenting. If nothing else there was definitely "perceived value" and I effectively removed the "bulge".
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post #1724 of 1738 Old 02-12-2015, 12:06 PM
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Thanks guys...It turned out there were screws in the middle of the inductors. I've got the caps out, just waiting for a delivery from Erse. I've gone through pretty much this whole thread here...good information.

I've got a pair of Time Window 1a's (the ones with ports on both sides) and I'm hoping I can get the 3's to sound as good as they are. I mean these things are incredible...they image better than anything I've ever had. They are truly intoxicating, music just pops out of these things! The 1a's were built around 1980/early 80's...and the 3's were built in May, 1989 (I have the original boxes). Yet the 1a's sound lively, engaging, while the 3's are a bit slow and dull. Fingers are crossed...I've read changing the caps on the 3's have done wonders.

A few thoughts on room placement, I'm able to have speakers about 60" from the wall behind them, and 30" from the side walls...I'm hoping the reason the 3's aren't sounding as good as the 1a's is just due to the old caps, and not because the listening space isn't wide enough...which is about 12.5' x 17'. Actually, It's an upstairs loft so most of the back wall is missing

I'd post pictures but I don't have enough posts...again thanks for the help.
Keep in mind when you go to set them up in your room, start with all the pots on the top/back of the cabinets in the 12 o'clock position first and then adjust from there. Don't mess with the three bottom ones at all.
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post #1725 of 1738 Old 02-12-2015, 03:25 PM
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Keep in mind when you go to set them up in your room, start with all the pots on the top/back of the cabinets in the 12 o'clock position first and then adjust from there. Don't mess with the three bottom ones at all.

Yes indeed, I've looked at the pots on the bottom, they are between the 12, and 2 o'clock positions, so the only thing that they are going to get is some DeoxIT.
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I struggled a lot trying to get the sound on my 3's right. I bought them used. I changed both the electrolytic and mylar caps which made a big difference. But I had a pair of TF-1000's that I was comparing them to and the 3's just sounded dull compared to them.

I completely disassembled them. I checked the continuity/resistance on the variable resistors, the speakers and the wiring. I even desoldered the resistors on the crossover and checked their values to see if they were in spec. Everything checked out fine and within spec. And still they sounded off. I was trying to figure it out for months. Jamie was helping me out a lot and he was even kind enough to speak with Steve about my issues. I couldn't figure out for the life of me what was wrong with them.

Eventually, I came across a drawing of a pair of 3's side by side and it was like a bolt of lightening hit me. I noticed that in the drawing it showed that the ports on the speakers were on the outboard panel of each speaker and I knew I had them positioned with the ports on the inside panels. It turns out that on the pair I have the labels on the back top side of the speakers were reversed at the factory. The right label was on the left speaker and the left label was right speaker. So when I set them up (per the instruction manual) with the arrows both pointing to the center the speakers were reversed.

My buddy was listening to them in the living room when I figured this out. I ran into the living room and shut off the stereo, switched the speakers around, and boom! They were instantly "fixed". We just sat there with our mouths open. To this day it still cracks me up to think about how much music has been listened to through those speakers since they were built and how much the previous owners missed out on.

Regarding placement, my living room is 15'6" x 38" and my 7's face down the length of the room so that back wall is quite a ways away. They are set about 3' back from the back wall and the side walls. The imaging and sound stage are fantastic. I found that if I moved them closer to the walls the sound stage was wider but I seemed to lose the center stage. This was not really an issue with multi-channel sound with a center speaker. But it did not sound quite right with 2 channel music. My speakers are about 9 feet apart and my power spot on the couch is about 10 feet from the speakers. This seemed to be the best positioning for my room.
Thanks Tony, I'm hoping it's not a room size issue with the 3's. Either way, I'll probably hang onto them anyway because they are so rare. I'm positive the new caps will reveal more of what these speakers are capable of.
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Keep in mind when you go to set them up in your room, start with all the pots on the top/back of the cabinets in the 12 o'clock position first and then adjust from there. Don't mess with the three bottom ones at all.
I did use Deoxit on the 3 trimpots this morning and I noticed most of them were well off center (almost full over to one side in some instances). I had read the post about Steve recommending that if they were far off center, then there was a possibility that they may have been altered. I returned them to the position(s) they were before I started. I just wanted to ask if my interpretation is correct about Steve saying they should be pretty close to center when they left the factory.
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post #1728 of 1738 Old 02-14-2015, 12:23 PM
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I did use Deoxit on the 3 trimpots this morning and I noticed most of them were well off center (almost full over to one side in some instances). I had read the post about Steve recommending that if they were far off center, then there was a possibility that they may have been altered. I returned them to the position(s) they were before I started. I just wanted to ask if my interpretation is correct about Steve saying they should be pretty close to center when they left the factory.
I do remember somewhat of a conservation about it. I could be wrong , but I thought the recommendation to put them in the center was for an individual who knew that theirs was not in the original factor settings. If you moved them to the center position, your worst case would be that you would only be "half" (or less) wrong. If you're not positive that someone had changed them, I would assume they're OK and leave them alone. You could measure the values that they are adjusted to and replace them with fixed value resistors.
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post #1729 of 1738 Old 02-15-2015, 06:04 AM
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I broke one of the PCB terminal tabs when reconnecting the wires. I'm not sure where I can locate a replacement....any suggestions?. Radio Shack is a no, Mouser has some that look similar.
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post #1730 of 1738 Old 02-20-2015, 03:40 AM
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I broke one of the PCB terminal tabs when reconnecting the wires. I'm not sure where I can locate a replacement....any suggestions?. Radio Shack is a no, Mouser has some that look similar.
I broke several of the terminal tabs on my TW3's as well trying to get them into the cabinet. I did some preliminary research on a replacement and came across these:

http://www.te.com/catalog/pn/en/62395-1?RQPN=62395-1

I have not ordered any yet, but I did have one of my TW3's apart yesterday and and put a micrometer on the ones that are on the board. The specs look as if they will be an almost identical replacement.

As a temporary repair, you can get male crimp tab connectors at most electronic stores. I soldered a piece of wire cut from a paper clip into the crimp connection. I then trimmed the wire so there would be enough protrusion to go through the PCB and soldered it to the bottom of the board. It worked like a charm.

If you get the replacements above please post back and tell me how they worked.
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post #1731 of 1738 Old 02-21-2015, 06:00 AM
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Tony, I went with a terminal tab that is very similar...

http://www.newark.com/multicomp-form...Terminals_None


It measured close to the original, a bit thicker (.20 mil), but I just expanded the female end with a flat tip screwdriver. Worked like a charm.

Not sure if my mind is playing tricks on me, but it seemed it took a while the caps to break in because I wasn't that impressed with the 3's for the first few hours, but after about 10 hours they have opened up nicely. The soundstage is a bit deeper and wider. Definitely a lower octave in the bass, and more presence all around from the 1a's.

I do run a subwoofer with mine (HSU VTF-1), and I'm playing around with the crossover. I have it at 60 Hz right now.

My first speaker crossover recap... Thanks for the help.
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post #1732 of 1738 Old 02-25-2015, 02:49 AM
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Hey guys, a pair of dcm12a popped up on Craigslist fir 200. How are these speakers?

Word library be an upgrade over my Sony core bookshelves, which I do like. Would the towers match the Sony core center?
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post #1733 of 1738 Old 04-03-2015, 07:22 PM
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Hey guys, I've searched around and haven't been able to find much. Does anyone know the differences between the CX-17/CX-21 and CX-27/CX-31. From what I can tell the driver arrangement is identical, so I was wondering if anyone has heard them both or knows of any acoustic differences?

Also, on a side note, I've heard people talk about how in theory the ideal home theater would use 5 identical speakers. Would I really be better off with say 5 CX-17s as opposed to 4 CX-17s and the SurroundScape Center? I realize whatever sounds best to me is best, but I'm also interested in the reasoning/theory behind those two potential "arguments." All ideas are appreciated!
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post #1734 of 1738 Old 04-04-2015, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Datzme View Post
Hey guys, I've searched around and haven't been able to find much. Does anyone know the differences between the CX-17/CX-21 and CX-27/CX-31. From what I can tell the driver arrangement is identical, so I was wondering if anyone has heard them both or knows of any acoustic differences?

Also, on a side note, I've heard people talk about how in theory the ideal home theater would use 5 identical speakers. Would I really be better off with say 5 CX-17s as opposed to 4 CX-17s and the SurroundScape Center? I realize whatever sounds best to me is best, but I'm also interested in the reasoning/theory behind those two potential "arguments." All ideas are appreciated!
The difference between the CX-17/CX-21 and CX-27/CX-31 is the addition of another 6.5" mid/woofer. They should all be fine to mix and match. The CX17 can be used as a center if you have the room. The SurroundScape Center won't go as low as the CX17, but it does have the time delay network in the crossover, whereas the CX series does not.
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post #1735 of 1738 Old Yesterday, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Hauser View Post
The difference between the CX-17/CX-21 and CX-27/CX-31 is the addition of another 6.5" mid/woofer. They should all be fine to mix and match. The CX17 can be used as a center if you have the room. The SurroundScape Center won't go as low as the CX17, but it does have the time delay network in the crossover, whereas the CX series does not.
Sorry, what I actually meant was how does the cx17 differ from the cx21, and how does the cx27 differ from the cx31. I've got a pair of 17s and 27s and was wondering if the 21s might differ from the 17s much? Sorry for the lack of clarity
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post #1736 of 1738 Old Today, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Datzme View Post
Sorry, what I actually meant was how does the cx17 differ from the cx21, and how does the cx27 differ from the cx31. I've got a pair of 17s and 27s and was wondering if the 21s might differ from the 17s much? Sorry for the lack of clarity
I believe it was just aesthetics.
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post #1737 of 1738 Old Today, 04:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Datzme View Post
Sorry, what I actually meant was how does the cx17 differ from the cx21, and how does the cx27 differ from the cx31. I've got a pair of 17s and 27s and was wondering if the 21s might differ from the 17s much? Sorry for the lack of clarity
I believe it was just aesthetics.
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post #1738 of 1738 Unread Today, 08:07 AM
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That is my impression also. They should all use the same drivers (tweeter/midrange) so they will be "voice match". That's what you would be looking for in a 5.1 setup. Like I said before, you can mix and match. The only thing I wouldn't do is put a dual woofer model on it's side and try and use it as a center speaker.
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