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post #6421 of 6430 Old 02-04-2016, 08:22 AM
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Wimpy receivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3db View Post
I should take you to my place and listen to my mass market Yamaha RX-V1800 driving my PSB Image suite of speakers to levels so loud but clear that you will find it uncomfortable. No shortage of power. there. As a matter of fact, my Yamaha will beat most NAD AVRs in the two channel test by a significant margin.



Mistakes your are making:
  1. AVR is rated for 130x7 . I know its not capable of that power delivery into all channels but its power supply is much bigger than the 240 Watts you incorrectly eluded too.
  2. The OP is using a sub and is offloading the biggest draw of power on the AVR to the sub woofer.
  3. You neglected to factor in desired SPL, distance from speakers, how big the room is. All of this plays significantly into the equation.
  4. The impedance on teh Image series varies from 4 to 16 Ohms depending on frequency content. If I remember correctly, the 4 ohms is in the upper bass low midrange but the phase angle is fairly low in that range. The low phase angle means that the load is easy to drive despite being 4 ohms.


If the OP is not hearing any strain from the speakers in the room that he's in and at the desired volume levels, then there is no need to buy more power.

1. You are mixing up things. I was talking about his Sony receiver. Sony says the receiver's output is 2x120 Watts into 8 Ohms per channel when driving only 2 channels at a time and no 4-Ohms spec at all. This is telling me that Sony receiver has a very weak power supply that is only capable of 240 Watts continuous into a pair of 8-Ohm speakers with a very stable impedance across the full audio bandwidth.

When driving PSB speakers, that power supply sags really badly and provides only 60 Watts per channel into the 4-Ohm load, which is sad. On top of all that, driving 7 PSB speakers with such a soft, wimpy power supply will produce very thin, brash sound. This is a fact regardless of the room size or listening distance. Most people in North America have very similar living spaces except a few exceptions like Kanye West and Michael Jordan.


2. Your Yamaha RX-V1800 receiver has a wimpy power supply as well. It is NOT rated into 4 Ohms at all and it does NOT provide 130 Watts into more than 2 channels at a time although I can't even confirm that because Yamaha is NOT clear in their specs. Maybe it is only 1 channel at a time. Their specs are not clear because they are hiding those important things.

Also, the RX-V1800 dynamic power ratings are quite weak as well. Absolutely no headroom even into 8 Ohms because they state 160 Watts as their dynamic power into 8 Ohms. Yeah, that is one wimpy power supply and yes, it will also sag just like the Sony receiver when presented with a 4-Ohm load like the PSB Image speakers.


3. Yes, PSB speakers are actually a 4-Ohm load because IEC standards dictate that the minimum impedance figure cannot be below 80% of the nominal impedance value if a speaker is to be considered a nominal impedance load. This is why PSB speakers sound thin and lifeless with mass market receivers when compared to any high-current amplifier like those from Bryston, NAD and Krell.

My PSB Image 4T model goes down to 3.9 ohms so it is a 4-Ohm load and NOT a 6-Ohm load like PSB stated in their specs. In order to be considered a 6-Ohm load, they would have to stay at or above 4.8 Ohms at any frequency and regardless of the phase angle. Nominal impedance value is just a gimmick. Most if not all B&W speakers are rated to be 8-Ohm speakers, but they all sink close to 3 Ohms at some frequencies. They are also 4-Ohm speakers and even tougher loads than PSB speakers.


4. This is why NAD always states that their amps and receivers provide full power at 4-Ohms. Full Disclosure Power is the king in audio:http://nadelectronics.com/articles/N...sclosure-Power

That full power rating can also be expressed in Decibel-Watts (dbW). For example, if a receiver can provide 100 Watts (20 dbW) into a 4-Ohm or an 8-Ohm load, that means that the current will double into 4 Ohms and you will get 3db more of the continuous power output into the 4-Ohm load, which is effectively 200 watts.

The 20 dbW value stays the same just like for the 8-ohm load, but the current doubles into 4 Ohms in any NAD amp or receiver and you effectively double the output in Watts. NAD wipes the floor with Yamaha in sheer performance. It is NOT even close so please do some honest research on differences between Yamaha, Sony and NAD. You will find that NAD folks are much more honest and sincere about the capabilities of their amps and receivers.


5. Your Yamaha has a wimpy power supply that loses 3db of the continuous power output when faced with a 4-Ohm load so instead of providing 130 Watts or 21dbW, it will give only 65 Watts or 18 dbW into a 4-Ohm load. I am just trying to explain this to you and help you realize that mass market receivers are just toys for gullible consumers who just don't know or don't care about the difference.

In conclusion, mass market receivers are cheap for a good reason. They are weak and they have no guts. They are built with the cheapest parts and they cannot drive any serious speaker with any kind of authority because they are not built to drive anything below 6 Ohms while most serious speakers go down to 4 Ohms or below. PSB speakers sound way better with any NAD or a Bryston amp.

The more headroom you give them, the better they sound. Even at low levels, you will get much better sound. This is from experience. Having a powered sub is just a bonus, but there is nothing like driving your main speakers with a high-current amp.

Last edited by AthlonX4631; 02-04-2016 at 08:27 AM.
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post #6422 of 6430 Old 02-04-2016, 10:49 AM
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Mistakes your are making:
  1. AVR is rated for 130x7 . I know its not capable of that power delivery into all channels but its power supply is much bigger than the 240 Watts you incorrectly eluded too.
  2. The OP is using a sub and is offloading the biggest draw of power on the AVR to the sub woofer.
  3. You neglected to factor in desired SPL, distance from speakers, how big the room is. All of this plays significantly into the equation.
  4. The impedance on teh Image series varies from 4 to 16 Ohms depending on frequency content. If I remember correctly, the 4 ohms is in the upper bass low midrange but the phase angle is fairly low in that range. The low phase angle means that the load is easy to drive despite being 4 ohms.


If the OP is not hearing any strain from the speakers in the room that he's in and at the desired volume levels, then there is no need to buy more power.[/QUOTE]



Thanks for your input and clarification on my sony which I dont need to mention! , just want to confirm , my PSB 300 sub is powered , not passive - I had assumed this means it has its own amplifier and as such it therefor does not draw from the Sony for power?

My speaker runs are longer than most around 45 to 50ft each for all the surround channels because I had to run them in the ceiling and in some cases around duct corners- plus leave some extra room in case I ever wanted to pull my cabinet out to do whatever without putting strain on any wire connections. The front left/right channels are 15 ft and 10ft for the center run. Because of the length and since it is a 4ohms load - I chose 12awg wire to make sure nothing was be limited based on reading online. The room size is large but the seating area relative to sound/tv is small about 12 x 15.

Are you running your Yamaha at 4ohms? if my receiver rating is 130watts 8ohms, what do you think the actual output is into 7 channels at 4ohms?

Thank you for your help!
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post #6423 of 6430 Old 02-04-2016, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slyboogy View Post
Because of the length and since it is a 4ohms load - I chose 12awg wire to make sure nothing was be limited based on reading online. The room size is large but the seating area relative to sound/tv is small about 12 x 15.

Are you running your Yamaha at 4ohms? if my receiver rating is 130watts 8ohms, what do you think the actual output is into 7 channels at 4ohms?

Thank you for your help!
Hey Slyboogy,

1. 12 AWG speaker cable is perfect for me. I always use 12 AWG no matter what. I use it even for the shortest runs because thicker wire is more resilient if you have any kids and pets. Thicker wire eliminates any cable resistance and you get the full signal with no losses to be concerned about. 12 AWG is the best and the most versatile speaker cable thickness. Here is a good link to read more about speaker wire guidelines:http://www.audioholics.com/audio-vid...er-cable-gauge


2. Yes, your PSB sub has its own amp, but it would be childish to think that other speakers don't need to be properly powered. If you care about performance, you will power your front speakers with high-current amps in order to get the full potential out of them and not just for the sake of high volume levels. The sound quality should be the paramount here, not the volume levels.


3. That '3db' guy was talking about his Yamaha RX-V1800. I do NOT own it. I use the NAD C340 integrated amplifier to drive my PSB Image 4T speakers. The problem with the Yamaha receiver is that its specs do NOT tell us how many speakers are driven at the same time when producing 130 Watts. I can't imagine more than 2 speakers at the same time.

On top of that, the Yamaha produces half as much power into a 4-Ohm load so you end up with 65x2 Watts into 4 Ohms as the best case scenario. When driving 7 speakers, I can't imagine that you could get more than 20 Watts per channel of continuous power.

Last edited by AthlonX4631; 02-04-2016 at 01:12 PM.
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post #6424 of 6430 Old 02-04-2016, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AthlonX4631 View Post
Hey Slyboogy,

1. 12 AWG speaker cable is perfect for me. I always use 12 AWG no matter what. I use it even for the shortest runs because thicker wire is more resilient if you have any kids and pets. Thicker wire eliminates any cable resistance and you get the full signal with no losses to be concerned about. 12 AWG is the best and the most versatile speaker cable thickness. Here is a good link to read more about speaker wire guidelines:http://www.audioholics.com/audio-vid...er-cable-gauge


2. Yes, your PSB sub has its own amp, but it would be childish to think that other speakers don't need to be properly powered. If you care about performance, you will power your front speakers with high-current amps in order to get the full potential out of them and not just for the sake of high volume levels. The sound quality should be the paramount here, not the volume levels.


3. That '3db' guy was talking about his Yamaha RX-V1800. I do NOT own it. I use the NAD C340 integrated amplifier to drive my PSB Image 4T speakers. The problem with the Yamaha receiver is that its specs do NOT tell us how many speakers are driven at the same time when producing 130 Watts. I can't imagine more than 2 speakers at the same time.

On top of that, the Yamaha produces half as much power into a 4-Ohm load so you end up with 65x2 Watts into 4 Ohms as the best case scenario. When driving 7 speakers, I can't imagine that you could get more than 20 Watts per channel of continuous power.



Thanks ! , I am going to plan to get myself an amp....although under further investigation - they are pretty expensive. Looks like you are in Canada like myself so shipping is also a consideration. So far , I have found an emotiva xpa7 brand new in markham for 2100 taxes in , which is alot more than I want to spend. I also found a refurb anthem pva7 in burlington and looks like a can get a 7 chan outlaw audio 7125 for around 1400 CAD (approx) . I have to admit - i never buy used stuff so I am weary about this.

Do you have any suggestions , especially since you are in the GTA?
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post #6425 of 6430 Old 02-04-2016, 04:58 PM
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Slyboogy,
Yes, you can just get the NAD C 245BEE brand new from any authorized dealers for CAD $700-800, depending on your negotiation skills. Bay Bloor Radio carries NAD stuff, but I would shop around and look for the best deal on that amp from other NAD dealers in the area. The C245 BEE is a 4-channel, 35-Watt amp into 8 Ohms that will double the current into a 4-Ohm load and that way you will get 70 Watts per channel.

Don't worry about not using one channel out of the four because the power supply will distribute the unused power to the three channels that are in use so you will have around 90 Watts per channel available into 4 ohms for those 3 front speakers. This is a killer amp for a very good price. If for any reason you decide later that you want more power, you can buy one more amp and bi-amp your front left and right speakers as well as bi-amp the center speaker.

Last edited by AthlonX4631; 02-04-2016 at 05:05 PM.
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post #6426 of 6430 Old 02-04-2016, 06:16 PM
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Hi Slyboogy, hifi is a journey, take it slow and enjoy, learning will come naturally. At one point you will learn that some spending is unnecessary and some are very good investment but most important is you experience it by trial and error. Yes it might be expensive to do it, unless you are not as hardcore as myself (countless buy, test, sell in used market), then taking advice from forummer as final advice will be the way to go but as usual, disclaimer, different people hear improvement differently, so some advice you take might not give result as you desire but to adviser, its good enough improvement to him.


As all things with this hifi hobby, most important is you and your ears. If it give result you are satisfied with, then that's enough. Don't have to study deep into technical details. Best way to learn is to audition other frds or forumer setup if possible, if not at a dealer shop, hear it yourself and determine if the investment is worth to spent. Almost all upgrade in hifi, whether a separate power amp, a better cable, footer, speaker is an upgrade, it's just to you whether the improvement vs money is well worth it. Proportionate your spending too, Eg; you don't spent 2k on an amp but your total speaker cost only 1k, you won't hear much improvement.


My advice is to take it slow and enjoy, its a journey, don't have to hurry it. When you understand how each component play their part in the setup, you tend to enjoy more.

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post #6427 of 6430 Old Yesterday, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaRomeoTango View Post
It's all a matter of compromise because of SBIR. In a perfect world, you'd have the speakers far enough away from the wall that a 1/4 wavelength distance is below the subwoofer crossover of the speaker. For example, at 80hz, the 1/4 wave is 3.5ft. In my particular set up, I only have the speakers 32" from the wall and that results in a 105hz cancellation and the surrounding half octave with the front speakers

Since you likely won't have more than 3.5ft behind your AT screen, the next best approach seems to be to put the speaker close enough to the wall so you can get into the range where acoustic absorption panels can counteract the SBIR. Most panels have 1.0 absorption at 350+ Hz. That would put the next optimal speaker distance at 9 inches or less.

The other consideration when behind an AT screen is that some sound will reflect back off the screen. I've read that you should keep the speakers fairly close to the screen to counteract this effect.

Really helpful information. I forgot to ask where I can learn about these calculations. How did you determine the next optimal location is less than 9" when using panels and what thickness of panel I would need?
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post #6428 of 6430 Old Today, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AthlonX4631 View Post

That '3db' guy was talking about his Yamaha RX-V1800. I do NOT own it. I use the NAD C340 integrated amplifier to drive my PSB Image 4T speakers. The problem with the Yamaha receiver is that its specs do NOT tell us how many speakers are driven at the same time when producing 130 Watts. I can't imagine more than 2 speakers at the same time.

On top of that, the Yamaha produces half as much power into a 4-Ohm load so you end up with 65x2 Watts into 4 Ohms as the best case scenario. When driving 7 speakers, I can't imagine that you could get more than 20 Watts per channel of continuous power.
You have a ton of misconceptions especially with respect to all channels driven and power delivery. The ACD test is the most useless test in AVR for the following reason:
  1. I never encounter a movie soundtrack where all channles were being being driven at identical volumes with the entir signal played of the front three. Please feel free to show me one,
  2. The ACD test is a measure of the sensitivity of the protection circuit only. Yamaha is very conservative in their approach and as a result are very aggressive in setting when the protection mechanism kicks in. Read the article and educate yourself before spouting off on things you simply don't understand.
    http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amp...amplifier-test
  3. The dynamic power specs as listed belowp for the NAD use IHF testing methodlogy which is different than 2 channel tests driven,. First off its not full bandwidth but centered around 1KHz nor which is a huge game changer.
    IHF dynamic power (max short term power per channel) 8½ 100W (20dBW)
    4½ 130W (21.1dBW)
    2½ 170W (22.3dBW)

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post #6429 of 6430 Old Today, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AthlonX4631 View Post
1. You are mixing up things. I was talking about his Sony receiver. Sony says the receiver's output is 2x120 Watts into 8 Ohms per channel when driving only 2 channels at a time and no 4-Ohms spec at all. This is telling me that Sony receiver has a very weak power supply that is only capable of 240 Watts continuous into a pair of 8-Ohm speakers with a very stable impedance across the full audio bandwidth. .
That tells me that the Sony has been specced properly but you interpolation of the specs are incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AthlonX4631 View Post
When driving PSB speakers, that power supply sags really badly and provides only 60 Watts per channel into the 4-Ohm load, which is sad. On top of all that, driving 7 PSB speakers with such a soft, wimpy power supply will produce very thin, brash sound. This is a fact regardless of the room size or listening distance. Most people in North America have very similar living spaces except a few exceptions like Kanye West and Michael Jordan..
Have you measured the results to backup your claims or is more subjective interpolation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AthlonX4631 View Post
2. Your Yamaha RX-V1800 receiver has a wimpy power supply as well. It is NOT rated into 4 Ohms at all and it does NOT provide 130 Watts into more than 2 channels at a time although I can't even confirm that because Yamaha is NOT clear in their specs. Maybe it is only 1 channel at a time. Their specs are not clear because they are hiding those important things.


Also, the RX-V1800 dynamic power ratings are quite weak as well. Absolutely no headroom even into 8 Ohms because they state 160 Watts as their dynamic power into 8 Ohms. Yeah, that is one wimpy power supply and yes, it will also sag just like the Sony receiver when presented with a 4-Ohm load like the PSB Image speakers.

My Yamaha will walk circles around your little NAD in terms of power delivery. Its not even a contest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AthlonX4631 View Post
3. Yes, PSB speakers are actually a 4-Ohm load because IEC standards dictate that the minimum impedance figure cannot be below 80% of the nominal impedance value if a speaker is to be considered a nominal impedance load. This is why PSB speakers sound thin and lifeless with mass market receivers when compared to any high-current amplifier like those from Bryston, NAD and Krell.

My PSB Image 4T model goes down to 3.9 ohms so it is a 4-Ohm load and NOT a 6-Ohm load like PSB stated in their specs. In order to be considered a 6-Ohm load, they would have to stay at or above 4.8 Ohms at any frequency and regardless of the phase angle. Nominal impedance value is just a gimmick. Most if not all B&W speakers are rated to be 8-Ohm speakers, but they all sink close to 3 Ohms at some frequencies. They are also 4-Ohm speakers and even tougher loads than PSB speakers.
Stating specs without understanding them is really to your detriment. An impedance dip 't isn't detrimental until the phase angle is 45 degrees or higher where have of the power delivered is burned by the reactive part of the impedance whcih by the way has no affect in delivering inmcreased SPL from your speakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AthlonX4631;41250561 4. This is why NAD always states that their amps and receivers provide full power at 4-Ohms. Full Disclosure Power is the king in audio:[URL
http://nadelectronics.com/articles/NAD-Full-Disclosure-Power[/URL]

That full power rating can also be expressed in Decibel-Watts (dbW). For example, if a receiver can provide 100 Watts (20 dbW) into a 4-Ohm or an 8-Ohm load, that means that the current will double into 4 Ohms and you will get 3db more of the continuous power output into the 4-Ohm load, which is effectively 200 watts.

The 20 dbW value stays the same just like for the 8-ohm load, but the current doubles into 4 Ohms in any NAD amp or receiver and you effectively double the output in Watts. NAD wipes the floor with Yamaha in sheer performance. It is NOT even close so please do some honest research on differences between Yamaha, Sony and NAD. You will find that NAD folks are much more honest and sincere about the capabilities of their amps and receivers.


5. Your Yamaha has a wimpy power supply that loses 3db of the continuous power output when faced with a 4-Ohm load so instead of providing 130 Watts or 21dbW, it will give only 65 Watts or 18 dbW into a 4-Ohm load. I am just trying to explain this to you and help you realize that mass market receivers are just toys for gullible consumers who just don't know or don't care about the difference.



In conclusion, mass market receivers are cheap for a good reason. They are weak and they have no guts. They are built with the cheapest parts and they cannot drive any serious speaker with any kind of authority because they are not built to drive anything below 6 Ohms while most serious speakers go down to 4 Ohms or below. PSB speakers sound way better with any NAD or a Bryston amp.

The more headroom you give them, the better they sound. Even at low levels, you will get much better sound. This is from experience. Having a powered sub is just a bonus, but there is nothing like driving your main speakers with a high-current amp.
You have demonstrated that you lack sufficient understanding of what goes behind the specs and what the specs are truly telling us and unfortunately espouse facts that simply aren't true.

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post #6430 of 6430 Old Today, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slyboogy View Post
Mistakes your are making:
  1. AVR is rated for 130x7 . I know its not capable of that power delivery into all channels but its power supply is much bigger than the 240 Watts you incorrectly eluded too.
  2. The OP is using a sub and is offloading the biggest draw of power on the AVR to the sub woofer.
  3. You neglected to factor in desired SPL, distance from speakers, how big the room is. All of this plays significantly into the equation.
  4. The impedance on teh Image series varies from 4 to 16 Ohms depending on frequency content. If I remember correctly, the 4 ohms is in the upper bass low midrange but the phase angle is fairly low in that range. The low phase angle means that the load is easy to drive despite being 4 ohms.


If the OP is not hearing any strain from the speakers in the room that he's in and at the desired volume levels, then there is no need to buy more power.




Thanks for your input and clarification on my sony which I dont need to mention! , just want to confirm , my PSB 300 sub is powered , not passive - I had assumed this means it has its own amplifier and as such it therefor does not draw from the Sony for power?

My speaker runs are longer than most around 45 to 50ft each for all the surround channels because I had to run them in the ceiling and in some cases around duct corners- plus leave some extra room in case I ever wanted to pull my cabinet out to do whatever without putting strain on any wire connections. The front left/right channels are 15 ft and 10ft for the center run. Because of the length and since it is a 4ohms load - I chose 12awg wire to make sure nothing was be limited based on reading online. The room size is large but the seating area relative to sound/tv is small about 12 x 15.

Are you running your Yamaha at 4ohms? if my receiver rating is 130watts 8ohms, what do you think the actual output is into 7 channels at 4ohms?

Thank you for your help![/QUOTE]

I left my impedance selector switch to 8 ohms. Please read the links belwo regarding ACD (All channels driven test) and the impedance selector switch. My advice to you is if it sounds good to your ears without sound starined or harsh at the volume levels you desire, than you have enough power. Don't fall for this BS audiophile crap that runs unchecked in the industry. BTW, I am an electrical engineer and happen to know a thing or two about amplifier specs. I just don't read the manufacturer advertised glossies and use them as fact. Oh and yes your subwoofer is an active with its own amplifier.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amp...amplifier-test

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amp...ector-switch-1

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Speakers PSB: Mains Image T-45/Alphas; Center Image 8C/100C; Srnd Image 1B/Alpha Mites
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