PSB Speakers Owners thread - Page 215 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6421 of 6593 Old 02-04-2016, 07:22 AM
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Wimpy receivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3db View Post
I should take you to my place and listen to my mass market Yamaha RX-V1800 driving my PSB Image suite of speakers to levels so loud but clear that you will find it uncomfortable. No shortage of power. there. As a matter of fact, my Yamaha will beat most NAD AVRs in the two channel test by a significant margin.



Mistakes your are making:
  1. AVR is rated for 130x7 . I know its not capable of that power delivery into all channels but its power supply is much bigger than the 240 Watts you incorrectly eluded too.
  2. The OP is using a sub and is offloading the biggest draw of power on the AVR to the sub woofer.
  3. You neglected to factor in desired SPL, distance from speakers, how big the room is. All of this plays significantly into the equation.
  4. The impedance on teh Image series varies from 4 to 16 Ohms depending on frequency content. If I remember correctly, the 4 ohms is in the upper bass low midrange but the phase angle is fairly low in that range. The low phase angle means that the load is easy to drive despite being 4 ohms.


If the OP is not hearing any strain from the speakers in the room that he's in and at the desired volume levels, then there is no need to buy more power.

1. You are mixing up things. I was talking about his Sony receiver. Sony says the receiver's output is 2x120 Watts into 8 Ohms per channel when driving only 2 channels at a time and no 4-Ohms spec at all. This is telling me that Sony receiver has a very weak power supply that is only capable of 240 Watts continuous into a pair of 8-Ohm speakers with a very stable impedance across the full audio bandwidth.

When driving PSB speakers, that power supply sags really badly and provides only 60 Watts per channel into the 4-Ohm load, which is sad. On top of all that, driving 7 PSB speakers with such a soft, wimpy power supply will produce very thin, brash sound. This is a fact regardless of the room size or listening distance. Most people in North America have very similar living spaces except a few exceptions like Kanye West and Michael Jordan.


2. Your Yamaha RX-V1800 receiver has a wimpy power supply as well. It is NOT rated into 4 Ohms at all and it does NOT provide 130 Watts into more than 2 channels at a time although I can't even confirm that because Yamaha is NOT clear in their specs. Maybe it is only 1 channel at a time. Their specs are not clear because they are hiding those important things.

Also, the RX-V1800 dynamic power ratings are quite weak as well. Absolutely no headroom even into 8 Ohms because they state 160 Watts as their dynamic power into 8 Ohms. Yeah, that is one wimpy power supply and yes, it will also sag just like the Sony receiver when presented with a 4-Ohm load like the PSB Image speakers.


3. Yes, PSB speakers are actually a 4-Ohm load because IEC standards dictate that the minimum impedance figure cannot be below 80% of the nominal impedance value if a speaker is to be considered a nominal impedance load. This is why PSB speakers sound thin and lifeless with mass market receivers when compared to any high-current amplifier like those from Bryston, NAD and Krell.

My PSB Image 4T model goes down to 3.9 ohms so it is a 4-Ohm load and NOT a 6-Ohm load like PSB stated in their specs. In order to be considered a 6-Ohm load, they would have to stay at or above 4.8 Ohms at any frequency and regardless of the phase angle. Nominal impedance value is just a gimmick. Most if not all B&W speakers are rated to be 8-Ohm speakers, but they all sink close to 3 Ohms at some frequencies. They are also 4-Ohm speakers and even tougher loads than PSB speakers.


4. This is why NAD always states that their amps and receivers provide full power at 4-Ohms. Full Disclosure Power is the king in audio:http://nadelectronics.com/articles/N...sclosure-Power

That full power rating can also be expressed in Decibel-Watts (dbW). For example, if a receiver can provide 100 Watts (20 dbW) into a 4-Ohm or an 8-Ohm load, that means that the current will double into 4 Ohms and you will get 3db more of the continuous power output into the 4-Ohm load, which is effectively 200 watts.

The 20 dbW value stays the same just like for the 8-ohm load, but the current doubles into 4 Ohms in any NAD amp or receiver and you effectively double the output in Watts. NAD wipes the floor with Yamaha in sheer performance. It is NOT even close so please do some honest research on differences between Yamaha, Sony and NAD. You will find that NAD folks are much more honest and sincere about the capabilities of their amps and receivers.


5. Your Yamaha has a wimpy power supply that loses 3db of the continuous power output when faced with a 4-Ohm load so instead of providing 130 Watts or 21dbW, it will give only 65 Watts or 18 dbW into a 4-Ohm load. I am just trying to explain this to you and help you realize that mass market receivers are just toys for gullible consumers who just don't know or don't care about the difference.

In conclusion, mass market receivers are cheap for a good reason. They are weak and they have no guts. They are built with the cheapest parts and they cannot drive any serious speaker with any kind of authority because they are not built to drive anything below 6 Ohms while most serious speakers go down to 4 Ohms or below. PSB speakers sound way better with any NAD or a Bryston amp.

The more headroom you give them, the better they sound. Even at low levels, you will get much better sound. This is from experience. Having a powered sub is just a bonus, but there is nothing like driving your main speakers with a high-current amp.
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post #6422 of 6593 Old 02-04-2016, 09:49 AM
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Mistakes your are making:
  1. AVR is rated for 130x7 . I know its not capable of that power delivery into all channels but its power supply is much bigger than the 240 Watts you incorrectly eluded too.
  2. The OP is using a sub and is offloading the biggest draw of power on the AVR to the sub woofer.
  3. You neglected to factor in desired SPL, distance from speakers, how big the room is. All of this plays significantly into the equation.
  4. The impedance on teh Image series varies from 4 to 16 Ohms depending on frequency content. If I remember correctly, the 4 ohms is in the upper bass low midrange but the phase angle is fairly low in that range. The low phase angle means that the load is easy to drive despite being 4 ohms.


If the OP is not hearing any strain from the speakers in the room that he's in and at the desired volume levels, then there is no need to buy more power.[/QUOTE]



Thanks for your input and clarification on my sony which I dont need to mention! , just want to confirm , my PSB 300 sub is powered , not passive - I had assumed this means it has its own amplifier and as such it therefor does not draw from the Sony for power?

My speaker runs are longer than most around 45 to 50ft each for all the surround channels because I had to run them in the ceiling and in some cases around duct corners- plus leave some extra room in case I ever wanted to pull my cabinet out to do whatever without putting strain on any wire connections. The front left/right channels are 15 ft and 10ft for the center run. Because of the length and since it is a 4ohms load - I chose 12awg wire to make sure nothing was be limited based on reading online. The room size is large but the seating area relative to sound/tv is small about 12 x 15.

Are you running your Yamaha at 4ohms? if my receiver rating is 130watts 8ohms, what do you think the actual output is into 7 channels at 4ohms?

Thank you for your help!
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post #6423 of 6593 Old 02-04-2016, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slyboogy View Post
Because of the length and since it is a 4ohms load - I chose 12awg wire to make sure nothing was be limited based on reading online. The room size is large but the seating area relative to sound/tv is small about 12 x 15.

Are you running your Yamaha at 4ohms? if my receiver rating is 130watts 8ohms, what do you think the actual output is into 7 channels at 4ohms?

Thank you for your help!
Hey Slyboogy,

1. 12 AWG speaker cable is perfect for me. I always use 12 AWG no matter what. I use it even for the shortest runs because thicker wire is more resilient if you have any kids and pets. Thicker wire eliminates any cable resistance and you get the full signal with no losses to be concerned about. 12 AWG is the best and the most versatile speaker cable thickness. Here is a good link to read more about speaker wire guidelines:http://www.audioholics.com/audio-vid...er-cable-gauge


2. Yes, your PSB sub has its own amp, but it would be childish to think that other speakers don't need to be properly powered. If you care about performance, you will power your front speakers with high-current amps in order to get the full potential out of them and not just for the sake of high volume levels. The sound quality should be the paramount here, not the volume levels.


3. That '3db' guy was talking about his Yamaha RX-V1800. I do NOT own it. I use the NAD C340 integrated amplifier to drive my PSB Image 4T speakers. The problem with the Yamaha receiver is that its specs do NOT tell us how many speakers are driven at the same time when producing 130 Watts. I can't imagine more than 2 speakers at the same time.

On top of that, the Yamaha produces half as much power into a 4-Ohm load so you end up with 65x2 Watts into 4 Ohms as the best case scenario. When driving 7 speakers, I can't imagine that you could get more than 20 Watts per channel of continuous power.

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post #6424 of 6593 Old 02-04-2016, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AthlonX4631 View Post
Hey Slyboogy,

1. 12 AWG speaker cable is perfect for me. I always use 12 AWG no matter what. I use it even for the shortest runs because thicker wire is more resilient if you have any kids and pets. Thicker wire eliminates any cable resistance and you get the full signal with no losses to be concerned about. 12 AWG is the best and the most versatile speaker cable thickness. Here is a good link to read more about speaker wire guidelines:http://www.audioholics.com/audio-vid...er-cable-gauge


2. Yes, your PSB sub has its own amp, but it would be childish to think that other speakers don't need to be properly powered. If you care about performance, you will power your front speakers with high-current amps in order to get the full potential out of them and not just for the sake of high volume levels. The sound quality should be the paramount here, not the volume levels.


3. That '3db' guy was talking about his Yamaha RX-V1800. I do NOT own it. I use the NAD C340 integrated amplifier to drive my PSB Image 4T speakers. The problem with the Yamaha receiver is that its specs do NOT tell us how many speakers are driven at the same time when producing 130 Watts. I can't imagine more than 2 speakers at the same time.

On top of that, the Yamaha produces half as much power into a 4-Ohm load so you end up with 65x2 Watts into 4 Ohms as the best case scenario. When driving 7 speakers, I can't imagine that you could get more than 20 Watts per channel of continuous power.



Thanks ! , I am going to plan to get myself an amp....although under further investigation - they are pretty expensive. Looks like you are in Canada like myself so shipping is also a consideration. So far , I have found an emotiva xpa7 brand new in markham for 2100 taxes in , which is alot more than I want to spend. I also found a refurb anthem pva7 in burlington and looks like a can get a 7 chan outlaw audio 7125 for around 1400 CAD (approx) . I have to admit - i never buy used stuff so I am weary about this.

Do you have any suggestions , especially since you are in the GTA?
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post #6425 of 6593 Old 02-04-2016, 03:58 PM
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Slyboogy,
Yes, you can just get the NAD C 245BEE brand new from any authorized dealers for CAD $700-800, depending on your negotiation skills. Bay Bloor Radio carries NAD stuff, but I would shop around and look for the best deal on that amp from other NAD dealers in the area. The C245 BEE is a 4-channel, 35-Watt amp into 8 Ohms that will double the current into a 4-Ohm load and that way you will get 70 Watts per channel.

Don't worry about not using one channel out of the four because the power supply will distribute the unused power to the three channels that are in use so you will have around 90 Watts per channel available into 4 ohms for those 3 front speakers. This is a killer amp for a very good price. If for any reason you decide later that you want more power, you can buy one more amp and bi-amp your front left and right speakers as well as bi-amp the center speaker.

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post #6426 of 6593 Old 02-04-2016, 05:16 PM
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Hi Slyboogy, hifi is a journey, take it slow and enjoy, learning will come naturally. At one point you will learn that some spending is unnecessary and some are very good investment but most important is you experience it by trial and error. Yes it might be expensive to do it, unless you are not as hardcore as myself (countless buy, test, sell in used market), then taking advice from forummer as final advice will be the way to go but as usual, disclaimer, different people hear improvement differently, so some advice you take might not give result as you desire but to adviser, its good enough improvement to him.


As all things with this hifi hobby, most important is you and your ears. If it give result you are satisfied with, then that's enough. Don't have to study deep into technical details. Best way to learn is to audition other frds or forumer setup if possible, if not at a dealer shop, hear it yourself and determine if the investment is worth to spent. Almost all upgrade in hifi, whether a separate power amp, a better cable, footer, speaker is an upgrade, it's just to you whether the improvement vs money is well worth it. Proportionate your spending too, Eg; you don't spent 2k on an amp but your total speaker cost only 1k, you won't hear much improvement.


My advice is to take it slow and enjoy, its a journey, don't have to hurry it. When you understand how each component play their part in the setup, you tend to enjoy more.

HT setup : Epson TW6100 / Emotiva XMC-1 / Primare A33.2 / Emotiva XPA-5 G2 / Oppo BDT-101CI / PSB Synchrony 1 with Nordost Hemidall XLR & Crystal cable Piccolo sc / PSB Synchrony 1c with Nordost Red Dawn ic & sc / PSB image B15 with Nordost Blue Heaven ic & Kimber 4tc sc / Rythmik F12 with Nordost Red Dawn / Sine SA-6 ME Distributor with Iego & Sine pc / Guizhu Rack
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post #6427 of 6593 Old 02-07-2016, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaRomeoTango View Post
It's all a matter of compromise because of SBIR. In a perfect world, you'd have the speakers far enough away from the wall that a 1/4 wavelength distance is below the subwoofer crossover of the speaker. For example, at 80hz, the 1/4 wave is 3.5ft. In my particular set up, I only have the speakers 32" from the wall and that results in a 105hz cancellation and the surrounding half octave with the front speakers

Since you likely won't have more than 3.5ft behind your AT screen, the next best approach seems to be to put the speaker close enough to the wall so you can get into the range where acoustic absorption panels can counteract the SBIR. Most panels have 1.0 absorption at 350+ Hz. That would put the next optimal speaker distance at 9 inches or less.

The other consideration when behind an AT screen is that some sound will reflect back off the screen. I've read that you should keep the speakers fairly close to the screen to counteract this effect.

Really helpful information. I forgot to ask where I can learn about these calculations. How did you determine the next optimal location is less than 9" when using panels and what thickness of panel I would need?
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post #6428 of 6593 Old 02-08-2016, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AthlonX4631 View Post

That '3db' guy was talking about his Yamaha RX-V1800. I do NOT own it. I use the NAD C340 integrated amplifier to drive my PSB Image 4T speakers. The problem with the Yamaha receiver is that its specs do NOT tell us how many speakers are driven at the same time when producing 130 Watts. I can't imagine more than 2 speakers at the same time.

On top of that, the Yamaha produces half as much power into a 4-Ohm load so you end up with 65x2 Watts into 4 Ohms as the best case scenario. When driving 7 speakers, I can't imagine that you could get more than 20 Watts per channel of continuous power.
You have a ton of misconceptions especially with respect to all channels driven and power delivery. The ACD test is the most useless test in AVR for the following reason:
  1. I never encounter a movie soundtrack where all channles were being being driven at identical volumes with the entir signal played of the front three. Please feel free to show me one,
  2. The ACD test is a measure of the sensitivity of the protection circuit only. Yamaha is very conservative in their approach and as a result are very aggressive in setting when the protection mechanism kicks in. Read the article and educate yourself before spouting off on things you simply don't understand.
    http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amp...amplifier-test
  3. The dynamic power specs as listed belowp for the NAD use IHF testing methodlogy which is different than 2 channel tests driven,. First off its not full bandwidth but centered around 1KHz nor which is a huge game changer.
    IHF dynamic power (max short term power per channel) 8½ 100W (20dBW)
    4½ 130W (21.1dBW)
    2½ 170W (22.3dBW)

Receiver: Yamaha RX-V1800/Yamaha RX-V1500
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post #6429 of 6593 Old 02-08-2016, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AthlonX4631 View Post
1. You are mixing up things. I was talking about his Sony receiver. Sony says the receiver's output is 2x120 Watts into 8 Ohms per channel when driving only 2 channels at a time and no 4-Ohms spec at all. This is telling me that Sony receiver has a very weak power supply that is only capable of 240 Watts continuous into a pair of 8-Ohm speakers with a very stable impedance across the full audio bandwidth. .
That tells me that the Sony has NOT been specced properly but you interpolation of the specs are incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AthlonX4631 View Post
When driving PSB speakers, that power supply sags really badly and provides only 60 Watts per channel into the 4-Ohm load, which is sad. On top of all that, driving 7 PSB speakers with such a soft, wimpy power supply will produce very thin, brash sound. This is a fact regardless of the room size or listening distance. Most people in North America have very similar living spaces except a few exceptions like Kanye West and Michael Jordan..
Have you measured the results to backup your claims or is this more subjective interpolation on your part?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AthlonX4631 View Post
2. Your Yamaha RX-V1800 receiver has a wimpy power supply as well. It is NOT rated into 4 Ohms at all and it does NOT provide 130 Watts into more than 2 channels at a time although I can't even confirm that because Yamaha is NOT clear in their specs. Maybe it is only 1 channel at a time. Their specs are not clear because they are hiding those important things.


Also, the RX-V1800 dynamic power ratings are quite weak as well. Absolutely no headroom even into 8 Ohms because they state 160 Watts as their dynamic power into 8 Ohms. Yeah, that is one wimpy power supply and yes, it will also sag just like the Sony receiver when presented with a 4-Ohm load like the PSB Image speakers.

My Yamaha will walk circles around your little NAD in terms of power delivery. Its not even a contest. Here's a review of the RX-V3900 which is the successor and big brother to the RX-V1800 by a mere 10 Watts per channel. Not enough power difference at all.
Taken from here.. http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...1EvAdLyUSAv.97

image: http://cdn.soundandvision.com/images...amrec.meas.jpg
This graph shows that the RX-V3900’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 190.4 watts and 1 percent distortion at 220.6 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 239.1 watts and 1 percent distortion at 282.9 watts.



Your NAD won't even come close to the power delivery of my mass market unit.


Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...ThrPUMpDBqr.99



Quote:
Originally Posted by AthlonX4631 View Post
3. Yes, PSB speakers are actually a 4-Ohm load because IEC standards dictate that the minimum impedance figure cannot be below 80% of the nominal impedance value if a speaker is to be considered a nominal impedance load. This is why PSB speakers sound thin and lifeless with mass market receivers when compared to any high-current amplifier like those from Bryston, NAD and Krell.

My PSB Image 4T model goes down to 3.9 ohms so it is a 4-Ohm load and NOT a 6-Ohm load like PSB stated in their specs. In order to be considered a 6-Ohm load, they would have to stay at or above 4.8 Ohms at any frequency and regardless of the phase angle. Nominal impedance value is just a gimmick. Most if not all B&W speakers are rated to be 8-Ohm speakers, but they all sink close to 3 Ohms at some frequencies. They are also 4-Ohm speakers and even tougher loads than PSB speakers.
Stating specs without understanding them is really to your detriment. An impedance dip isn't detrimental until the phase angle is 45 degrees or higher where half of the power delivered is burned by the reactive part of the impedance which by the way has no affect in delivering increased SPL from your speakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AthlonX4631;41250561 4. This is why NAD always states that their amps and receivers provide full power at 4-Ohms. Full Disclosure Power is the king in audio:[URL
http://nadelectronics.com/articles/NAD-Full-Disclosure-Power[/URL]

That full power rating can also be expressed in Decibel-Watts (dbW). For example, if a receiver can provide 100 Watts (20 dbW) into a 4-Ohm or an 8-Ohm load, that means that the current will double into 4 Ohms and you will get 3db more of the continuous power output into the 4-Ohm load, which is effectively 200 watts.

The 20 dbW value stays the same just like for the 8-ohm load, but the current doubles into 4 Ohms in any NAD amp or receiver and you effectively double the output in Watts. NAD wipes the floor with Yamaha in sheer performance. It is NOT even close so please do some honest research on differences between Yamaha, Sony and NAD. You will find that NAD folks are much more honest and sincere about the capabilities of their amps and receivers.


5. Your Yamaha has a wimpy power supply that loses 3db of the continuous power output when faced with a 4-Ohm load so instead of providing 130 Watts or 21dbW, it will give only 65 Watts or 18 dbW into a 4-Ohm load. I am just trying to explain this to you and help you realize that mass market receivers are just toys for gullible consumers who just don't know or don't care about the difference.



In conclusion, mass market receivers are cheap for a good reason. They are weak and they have no guts. They are built with the cheapest parts and they cannot drive any serious speaker with any kind of authority because they are not built to drive anything below 6 Ohms while most serious speakers go down to 4 Ohms or below. PSB speakers sound way better with any NAD or a Bryston amp.

The more headroom you give them, the better they sound. Even at low levels, you will get much better sound. This is from experience. Having a powered sub is just a bonus, but there is nothing like driving your main speakers with a high-current amp.
You have demonstrated that you lack sufficient understanding of what goes behind the specs and what the specs are truly telling us and unfortunately espouse facts that simply aren't true.

Receiver: Yamaha RX-V1800/Yamaha RX-V1500
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Last edited by 3db; 02-10-2016 at 11:35 AM.
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post #6430 of 6593 Old 02-08-2016, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slyboogy View Post
Mistakes your are making:
  1. AVR is rated for 130x7 . I know its not capable of that power delivery into all channels but its power supply is much bigger than the 240 Watts you incorrectly eluded too.
  2. The OP is using a sub and is offloading the biggest draw of power on the AVR to the sub woofer.
  3. You neglected to factor in desired SPL, distance from speakers, how big the room is. All of this plays significantly into the equation.
  4. The impedance on teh Image series varies from 4 to 16 Ohms depending on frequency content. If I remember correctly, the 4 ohms is in the upper bass low midrange but the phase angle is fairly low in that range. The low phase angle means that the load is easy to drive despite being 4 ohms.


If the OP is not hearing any strain from the speakers in the room that he's in and at the desired volume levels, then there is no need to buy more power.




Thanks for your input and clarification on my sony which I dont need to mention! , just want to confirm , my PSB 300 sub is powered , not passive - I had assumed this means it has its own amplifier and as such it therefor does not draw from the Sony for power?

My speaker runs are longer than most around 45 to 50ft each for all the surround channels because I had to run them in the ceiling and in some cases around duct corners- plus leave some extra room in case I ever wanted to pull my cabinet out to do whatever without putting strain on any wire connections. The front left/right channels are 15 ft and 10ft for the center run. Because of the length and since it is a 4ohms load - I chose 12awg wire to make sure nothing was be limited based on reading online. The room size is large but the seating area relative to sound/tv is small about 12 x 15.

Are you running your Yamaha at 4ohms? if my receiver rating is 130watts 8ohms, what do you think the actual output is into 7 channels at 4ohms?

Thank you for your help![/QUOTE]

I left my impedance selector switch to 8 ohms. Please read the links belwo regarding ACD (All channels driven test) and the impedance selector switch. My advice to you is if it sounds good to your ears without sound starined or harsh at the volume levels you desire, than you have enough power. Don't fall for this BS audiophile crap that runs unchecked in the industry. BTW, I am an electrical engineer and happen to know a thing or two about amplifier specs. I just don't read the manufacturer advertised glossies and use them as fact. Oh and yes your subwoofer is an active with its own amplifier.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amp...amplifier-test

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amp...ector-switch-1

Receiver: Yamaha RX-V1800/Yamaha RX-V1500
Display: Vizio SV-470M 47"/Toshiba 32" CRT
BluRay/CD: Sony BDP-S360/Toshiba DVD/VHS; Turntable ProJect Xpression III
Speakers PSB: Mains Image T-45/Alphas; Center Image 8C/100C; Srnd Image 1B/Alpha Mites
Subwoofer: Rythmic LV12-R/PSB Subsonic 5
Media Player WD + 3TB USB drive/Iomega + 1TB internal drive

Last edited by 3db; 02-10-2016 at 05:44 AM.
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post #6431 of 6593 Old 02-10-2016, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by slyboogy View Post
Thanks for your input and clarification on my sony which I dont need to mention! , just want to confirm , my PSB 300 sub is powered , not passive - I had assumed this means it has its own amplifier and as such it therefor does not draw from the Sony for power?
Correct.

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Originally Posted by slyboogy View Post
My speaker runs are longer than most around 45 to 50ft each for all the surround channels because I had to run them in the ceiling and in some cases around duct corners- plus leave some extra room in case I ever wanted to pull my cabinet out to do whatever without putting strain on any wire connections. The front left/right channels are 15 ft and 10ft for the center run. Because of the length and since it is a 4ohms load - I chose 12awg wire to make sure nothing was be limited based on reading online. The room size is large but the seating area relative to sound/tv is small about 12 x 15.

Are you running your Yamaha at 4ohms? if my receiver rating is 130watts 8ohms, what do you think the actual output is into 7 channels at 4ohms?

Thank you for your help!
My Yamaha is setup for 8ohms. It really doesn't matter to me what I think the power into 7 channels would be when the speakers are at 4 ohms. What matters is how it sounds. If I crank the volume up and everything sounds just louder without beginning to sound harsh or irritating, then my Yamaha is delivering all the power the speakers demand without straining the amplifier section/power supplies. The other thing you have to remember is that no movie soundtrack (at least none that I have) will play the exact same content as your front speakers at the same volume levels.

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post #6432 of 6593 Old 02-13-2016, 06:40 PM
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You have demonstrated that you lack sufficient understanding of what goes behind the specs and what the specs are truly telling us and unfortunately espouse facts that simply aren't true.
No, Sir. I have demonstrated that I know my stuff. You are the one with a wimpy Japanese receiver and you have to live with it. NAD amps cost more because they deliver serious current into any speaker load. Yes, even into those Infinity Kappa speakers that go down to 1 Ohm.

Connect those to your receiver and just watch your receiver overheat and shut down when just watching news on TV. Stiff power supplies cost money. If Japanese receivers were any good, they would at least give 50% more current into 4 Ohms, but they never will.
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post #6433 of 6593 Old 02-13-2016, 07:47 PM
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No, Sir. I have demonstrated that I know my stuff. You are the one with a wimpy Japanese receiver and you have to live with it. NAD amps cost more because they deliver serious current into any speaker load. Yes, even into those Infinity Kappa speakers that go down to 1 Ohm.

Connect those to your receiver and just watch your receiver overheat and shut down when just watching news on TV. Stiff power supplies cost money. If Japanese receivers were any good, they would at least give 50% more current into 4 Ohms, but they never will.
You demonstrated nothing of the sort. If you even had bothered to read the powertests from Home Theater Magazine that I posted, you would have noticed that the AVR actually doubled its power output into 4 ohms full bandwidth. Thats rare for AVR to do including your NAD. All you have done is perpetuate audiophile snake oil. Nothing more. Also, NAD AVR quality control is dismal at best. Far more complaints have been raised about NAD then Yamaha which is the envy of the industry for QC and longevity. You live in your dreamworld but please dont mislead anyone with your snakeoil.
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This is getting fun. NAD vs Yamaha........ I own both. Ill take the NAD.

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post #6435 of 6593 Old 02-14-2016, 07:01 AM
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This is getting fun. NAD vs Yamaha........ I own both. Ill take the NAD.
Thats like comparing apples to oranges and taking apples. Please put some context around the statement and indicate the models you are comparing.
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This is getting fun. NAD vs Yamaha........ I own both. Ill take the NAD.

But that's typical of someone who invested their money and pride into a set of Bose speakers or Skull Candy earbuds. Casting a vote for a product you are a fan of isn't really an argument. Is there some more tangible advantage to the NADs over the Yamahas?


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But that's typical of someone who invested their money and pride into a set of Bose speakers or Skull Candy earbuds. Casting a vote for a product you are a fan of isn't really an argument. Is there some more tangible advantage to the NADs over the Yamahas?


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Can you read? I have invested in both Yamaha and NAD!!!
Do you have any tangible evidence supporting your negative comments regarding Bose speakers or skull candy earbuds? Measurements?

Yamaha: Reliable, built fairly well, aesthetically pleasing / but, riddled with useless surround modes, sounds drier and leaner than my Denon let alone the NAD. Heatsink looks like a piece of foil. Performs well enough to use with my old Sega Genesis for my daughter. It was used in my audio rooms, not anymore.

NAD: Built well, reliable, no nonsense surround modes, excellent music performance, two sub outs, focus on build quality and minimal bells and whistles. I have owned a significant amount of NAD and suffered little problems or failures. I do not want my audio products to have spotify or XM built in. Thats what cell phones are for. If I need that garbage I will hook up a computer as a source.

I am not of the all amps sound the same persuasion. Please dont start polluting this thread again. After all, this is a PSB speaker thread. It is not a this receiver versus that receiver or all amps sound the same thread.

I would enjoy another thread dedicated to such topics. Its fun to see the same old characters get huffy and summon moderators to rescue them.

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Can you read?


I am not of the all amps sound the same persuasion. Please dont start polluting this thread again. After all, this is a PSB speaker thread. It is not a this receiver versus that receiver or all amps sound the same thread.

I would enjoy another thread dedicated to such topics. Its fun tojsee the same old characters get huffy and summon moderators to rescue them.
Apparently you CANNOT READ as you never answered my question. Also, if your so worried about this being a PSB thread, you would have refrained from your first fanboy remark. Good job.
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PSB Speakers Owners thread

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Can you read? I have invested in both Yamaha and NAD!!!
Do you have any tangible evidence supporting your negative comments regarding Bose speakers or skull candy earbuds? Measurements?

Yamaha: Reliable, built fairly well, aesthetically pleasing / but, riddled with useless surround modes, sounds drier and leaner than my Denon let alone the NAD. Heatsink looks like a piece of foil. Performs well enough to use with my old Sega Genesis for my daughter. It was used in my audio rooms, not anymore.

NAD: Built well, reliable, no nonsense surround modes, excellent music performance, two sub outs, focus on build quality and minimal bells and whistles. I have owned a significant amount of NAD and suffered little problems or failures. I do not want my audio products to have spotify or XM built in. Thats what cell phones are for. If I need that garbage I will hook up a computer as a source.

I am not of the all amps sound the same persuasion. Please dont start polluting this thread again. After all, this is a PSB speaker thread. It is not a this receiver versus that receiver or all amps sound the same thread.

I would enjoy another thread dedicated to such topics. Its fun to see the same old characters get huffy and summon moderators to rescue them.

You just posted a bunch of meaningless Yamaha bashing after saying you don't want to talk about receivers and that you like Yamaha. You didn't give a splick of evidence that Yamaha sounds worse and claims it has useless surround modes and useless features as if that's true for everyone. You clearly have an agenda. Someone could say their Bose HTiB sounds better than your mad and they would have just as much credibility.

You are the one trying to force your NAD agenda into this topic. PSBs sound just fine with any receiver and their would only be a tiny difference that isn't audible to most people. Please provide evidence otherwise. I find processing modes to be far more enjoyable and noticeable than amp differences. Can you please give us something more substantial than just you preferring what you spent your money on?


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You just posted a bunch of meaningless Yamaha bashing after saying you don't want to talk about receivers and that you like Yamaha. You didn't give a splick of evidence that Yamaha sounds worse and claims it has useless surround modes and useless features as if that's true for everyone. You clearly have an agenda. Someone could say their Bose HTiB sounds better than your mad and they would have just as much credibility.

You are the one trying to force your NAD agenda into this topic. PSBs sound just fine with any receiver and their would only be a tiny difference that isn't audible to most people. Please provide evidence otherwise. I find processing modes to be far more enjoyable and noticeable than amp differences. Can you please give us something more substantial than just you preferring what you spent your money on?


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PSB may sound "fine" with any receiver but they sound better with some more than others!!!
Here we are again. The all amps sound the same cult has resumed the hi jacking of the PSB thread!!!

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PSB may sound "fine" with any receiver but they sound better with some more than others!!!
Here we are again. The all amps sound the same cult has resumed the hi jacking of the PSB thread!!!

It's not about that at all. You are the one claiming facts about it sounding better with zero evidence. Whether the amp sounds the same or not, it might sound worse to some people for all we know. Like I said, by your speculation, how do we know an HTiB receiver doesn't sound better?

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Ok, so start one of you blithering all amps sound the same threads and we can discuss it there.
You pollute AVS threads with a wore out ideology that no one cares about.

To get this thread back on track, I will post a nice pic of a PSB speaker. Enjoy.






NAD M15 /NAD M25 / PSB STRATUS GOLD / PSB STRATUS 6C /DENON AVR 3300/CARVER TFM 45/35 - ANTHEM MCA3 / NAD T163
IMAGE DYNAMICS / INFINITY RS3 / POLK MONITOR 10/ALTEC 501 / INTEGRA 50.3/PARADIGM DSP 3400 / GOLDENEAR AON3 / HK AVI 200

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Ok, so start one of you blithering all amps sound the same threads and we can discuss it there.
You pollute AVS threads with a wore out ideology that no one cares about.

To get this thread back on track, I will post a nice pic of a PSB speaker. Enjoy.






You completely ignored what I said. I said how do we know the difference sounds better. And please don't ask us to make a thread when you are the one going on about NAD so much. We don't need to make an "all amps sound the same thread" anymore than you need to make a "all amps don't sound the same thread."

But please, let's stop talking about NADs because this is a PSB thread.


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post #6444 of 6593 Old 02-15-2016, 04:21 PM
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You demonstrated nothing of the sort. If you even had bothered to read the powertests from Home Theater Magazine that I posted, you would have noticed that the AVR actually doubled its power output into 4 ohms full bandwidth.
Show me the money, Mr. 3db. Where is that link that shows your receiver doubling the power into 4 Ohms. Here is the excerpt from the link you posted:

"This graph shows that the RX-V3900’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 190.4 watts and 1 percent distortion at 220.6 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 239.1 watts and 1 percent distortion at 282.9 watts."
http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...XShmIYvBgBS.99

Let's be realistic here. Just look at the figures for 1% distortion. Into an 8-ohm load you get 220.6 Watts and you get 282.9 Watts into a 4-Ohm load. You are getting only 28% more current into 4 Ohms, which means that you lose more than 2 dbW in the actual signal level and that, again means that your effective power is about 145 Watts into 4 ohms, when driving only 2 channels at a time.

Now, my NAD C340 doesn't seem that far away with its 130-Watt rating into 4 Ohms. Yes, it's the IHF Dynamic Power figure, but Stereophile measurements have shown that NAD engineers don't abuse those figures. Historically, those dynamic power figures are right about on par with John Atkinson's measurements for continuous power on many other NAD amplifiers over the last 25 years and yes, that's how long I have been reading Stereophile. It is by far, the most honest publication when it comes to objective measurements.

Even if you choose to ignore those IHF Dynamic Power ratings, there is no getting away from the fact that my NAD C340 amp at 50 Watts per channel will produce 17dbW continuous into 8 or 4 Ohms. In order for the 4-Ohm figure to stay the same at 17dbW, the current must double and effectively I get 100 Watts per channel of clean power with no distortion at all. It's easy to imagine that with 1% distortion figure, I will get about 15% more power so now we arrive at 115 watts per channel of pure FTC continuous power. Are we super close to that IHF dynamic power figure of 130 Watts? Yes, we are. Check out this article from Stereophile about amplifier measurements in general.

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit...siOEgQ72uZw.97

NAD engineers are very conservative and completely unlike the Japanese manufacturers. A Japanese manufacturer will charge you an arm and a leg for doubling the current into a 4-Ohm load. They have a couple of amps like that and they charge thousands for them. Don't ever forget the fact that if you don't double the current into 4 Ohms, you will always lose in the signal strength (dbW), which will ultimately cost you the effective output power.

You were also mentioning NAD quality. I have been using my NAD C340 amp every day for the last 16 years. Is that considered bad reliability? I don't think so.

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You were also mentioning NAD quality. I have been using my NAD C340 amp every day for the last 16 years. Is that considered bad reliability? I don't think so.
Both companies have had some minor issues with reliability over the years with certain units. Now, both have a good reputation for dependability.

This one, however, was a bigger disaster than the Challenger Space Shuttle !


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post #6446 of 6593 Old 02-16-2016, 11:03 AM
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Show me the money, Mr. 3db. Where is that link that shows your receiver doubling the power into 4 Ohms. Here is the excerpt from the link you posted:

"This graph shows that the RX-V3900’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 190.4 watts and 1 percent distortion at 220.6 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 239.1 watts and 1 percent distortion at 282.9 watts."
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-v3900-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures#Ef97LXShmIYvBgBS.99





Let's be realistic here. Just look at the figures for 1% distortion. Into an 8-ohm load you get 220.6 Watts and you get 282.9 Watts into a 4-Ohm load. You are getting only 28% more current into 4 Ohms, which means that you lose more than 2 dbW in the actual signal level and that, again means that your effective power is about 145 Watts into 4 ohms, when driving only 2 channels at a time.
Exactly and Yamaha rates this AVR as 140 watt per channel receiver so it more than mets its power criteria.

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Now, my NAD C340 doesn't seem that far away with its 130-Watt rating into 4 Ohms. Yes, it's the IHF Dynamic Power figure, but Stereophile measurements have shown that NAD engineers don't abuse those figures. Historically, those dynamic power figures are right about on par with John Atkinson's measurements for continuous power on many other NAD amplifiers over the last 25 years and yes, that's how long I have been reading Stereophile. It is by far, the most honest publication when it comes to objective measurements.

Even if you choose to ignore those IHF Dynamic Power ratings, there is no getting away from the fact that my NAD C340 amp at 50 Watts per channel will produce 17dbW continuous into 8 or 4 Ohms. In order for the 4-Ohm figure to stay the same at 17dbW, the current must double and effectively I get 100 Watts per channel of clean power with no distortion at all. It's easy to imagine that with 1% distortion figure, I will get about 15% more power so now we arrive at 115 watts per channel of pure FTC continuous power. Are we super close to that IHF dynamic power figure of 130 Watts? Yes, we are. Check out this article from Stereophile about amplifier measurements in general.
FTC measurements and IHF Dynamic Power ratings are taken at 1Khz, not full spectrum so the power numbers will drop significantly. Its an apples to oranges comparison really. If you care to reread the article I quoted from Home Theater Magazine, those measurements are taken with the full audio spectrum applied, not some paltry 1KHz tone test.


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http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit...siOEgQ72uZw.97

NAD engineers are very conservative and completely unlike the Japanese manufacturers. A Japanese manufacturer will charge you an arm and a leg for doubling the current into a 4-Ohm load. They have a couple of amps like that and they charge thousands for them. Don't ever forget the fact that if you don't double the current into 4 Ohms, you will always lose in the signal strength (dbW), which will ultimately cost you the effective output power.

You were also mentioning NAD quality. I have been using my NAD C340 amp every day for the last 16 years. Is that considered bad reliability? I don't think so.
NAD amps are fairly reliable but there AVRs are buggy as hell. Google it and you'll read far more complaints about NAD then Yamaha,

Here's one more test to dispell your outdated (by 20 years) outlook,

From the review of the RX-A3000
http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiv...surements-cont


The Yamaha RX-A3000 handedly exceeded its 140wpc power rating continuously with two channels driven and stomped out an impressive 236wpc both channels driven into 4 ohms; and that’s a full power bandwidth measurement (20Hz to 20kHz at 0.1% THD + N). It proved to be every bit as powerful as their more expensive RX-Z7 mode. You can see the protection circuit kick on during our ACD tests, purposely limiting power to 65wpc. In short time, there is no doubt in my mind forum lurkers seeing this will pop up on our site or AVS Forum bashing Yamaha, not realizing the design purpose of power limiting a multi channel amplifier in a compact chassis, or the reality that real world program material will never trip this limiter circuitry. Thus we conducted dynamic burst power measurements simulating real world program content. Interestingly enough the RX-A3000 delivered similar dynamic power output ACD into 8 ohm loads and slightly more power two channels driven into 4 ohm loads than the Emotiva UPA-7 dedicated multi-channel power amplifier that is designed to deliver rated power continuously into all channels as can be seen in the comparison table below.

Receiver: Yamaha RX-V1800/Yamaha RX-V1500
Display: Vizio SV-470M 47"/Toshiba 32" CRT
BluRay/CD: Sony BDP-S360/Toshiba DVD/VHS; Turntable ProJect Xpression III
Speakers PSB: Mains Image T-45/Alphas; Center Image 8C/100C; Srnd Image 1B/Alpha Mites
Subwoofer: Rythmic LV12-R/PSB Subsonic 5
Media Player WD + 3TB USB drive/Iomega + 1TB internal drive

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post #6447 of 6593 Old 02-16-2016, 12:51 PM
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Weird, but I have seen nothing but praise for this beast. I wonder what you are looking at?

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Receiver: Yamaha RX-V1800/Yamaha RX-V1500
Display: Vizio SV-470M 47"/Toshiba 32" CRT
BluRay/CD: Sony BDP-S360/Toshiba DVD/VHS; Turntable ProJect Xpression III
Speakers PSB: Mains Image T-45/Alphas; Center Image 8C/100C; Srnd Image 1B/Alpha Mites
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Media Player WD + 3TB USB drive/Iomega + 1TB internal drive
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Talking

Just wanted to give the forum a heads up on a recent experience I had with PSB. I am the original owner of a pair of PSB Gold i purchased in 1998. Recently I heard a buzzing / crackling sound from one of the woofers. The speaker appeared to be in great shape. The surround was good and the outward appearance seemed fine. After some test sounds I concluded that the driver was bad.
I posted a request for help on the PSB website in the community. It took about 4 days for a response but I was given a telephone number for the parts department. They are still stocking brand new woofers for the Gold i. A bit pricey at $267 plus $20 shipping but it was delivered in 4 days. A few minutes to install and my Gold i's were sounding good as new. Great job by PSB.
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Just wanted to give the forum a heads up on a recent experience I had with PSB. I am the original owner of a pair of PSB Gold i purchased in 1998. Recently I heard a buzzing / crackling sound from one of the woofers. The speaker appeared to be in great shape. The surround was good and the outward appearance seemed fine. After some test sounds I concluded that the driver was bad.
I posted a request for help on the PSB website in the community. It took about 4 days for a response but I was given a telephone number for the parts department. They are still stocking brand new woofers for the Gold i. A bit pricey at $267 plus $20 shipping but it was delivered in 4 days. A few minutes to install and my Gold i's were sounding good as new. Great job by PSB.
Last year at RMAF Mr Barton advised me that he still stocks all the parts for my original gold. It is rare for a company to support a speaker 26+ years old. Many companies, such as JL audio, will only stock parts for the warranty period of the speaker. Dynaudio only supports for 10 years. If there is a company as good as PSB for support, Im not aware of it.

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tritiumglo is offline  
post #6450 of 6593 Old 02-17-2016, 09:00 AM
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Hey guys.

I have a NAD 320bee which is used to power my PSB X2T's. I've been contemplating getting a sub since i find the low end lacking just a little bit. I listen to a lot of trance music that demands more low end response.
Today i stumbled upon a listing for a used NAD 275bee with 150wpc. My current 320bee outputs 50wpc. Would the 275bee be able to deliver more noticeable bass? I am actually quite satisfied with my current set up, but i'm tempted to go for the 275bee as it is less than half the retail price and only a year old. Also, i should be able to use the 320bee's pre amp with interconnects to the 275bee right?\

Thanks!
dcolaco is offline  
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