PSB Speakers Owners thread - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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Old 02-17-2008, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

If Stratus Minis seemed bright, something was waaaay wrong.

Yeah, no sh!t. Really disappointing, I so much wanted to get them as rears to match up with the Golds, but there was no way...
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Old 02-17-2008, 09:04 PM
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Shouldn't be a problem. They were always very nice, warm speakers with reasonably powerful bass. Sure there's nothing wrong with the midbass drivers? Burnt crossover?

John
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Old 02-17-2008, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Sure there's nothing wrong with the midbass drivers? Burnt crossover?

Assuming that's to me, who knows: I left them at the dealers and never brought them home. The dealer in question was a reputable PSB vendor and should have known better if there where in fact physical problems with the speakers. They turned out to be the only pair of Stratus Mini's I ever auditioned, but I know Paul would have never intended for them to sound that way...
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Old 02-17-2008, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by scientest View Post

So basically you started noticing problems when you switched pre-amps (essentially, since that's how you're using Integra)? That may not mean the issue is the pre-amp section on the Integra or the integration with the PSB's, though they combination may be more revealing than your old setup. (It's amazing to me how your average upper end consumer electronics of the last years can beat the carp out of some so called audiophile electronics of past years, but that's another thread...)

This all makes me wonder if it's the cartridge: can you tell us what it is? Have you checked the arm setup; tracking, cartridge weight, balance, etc.? Is the needle new? Clean? Is the turntable level? It looks like those are glass shelves under the equipment; have you tried some damping material, blue tack or similar under the turntable legs?

Just out of interest, have you tried the setup with the amps in the Integra instead of Anthems?

The window behind the seating position looks like a bit of an issue: the shears aren't doing anything to cut the reflections off of it. Don't suppose you want to convince your significant other to invest in some heavy double lined drapes for that window? If you sit on the floor so that you're not in line of reflections off the window (and the couch is behind your head) how do things sound (you're off axis so that also changes the response, but humor me)? Alternately, if you slouch down in the couch so you head is below the top of the couch, how does it sound?

Yes I noticed when I switched.

Gold Ring 1012 GX

As for tone arm, it is something I thought of and I think I need to put some effort into the set up.

Turntable is level (per integrated level on turntable base) and is on a wood shelf.

(Do you recommend wood? I can switch back for other components)

Have not used the Integra amps. I may try later and I will let you know results.

Wife says NO!!!

I will try different sitting positions.

Funny thing happened on the way to the office. After playing with sub and speaker position and cables I listened today with Integra Phono amp and Project amp and neither sounded so bright anymore. Go figure?

I have gone back to Integra phono because after a simple test with the fetching Mrs. She said she liked that sound better. I was torn and I liked the idea of a more direct route through the Integra's electronics and not adding another bunch of transistors, capacitors and resistors for the sound to travel through. (well ok not actually sound but signal)

Thanks for your input. I will let you know the latest.

Thanks for all of your great input.

Rotel Audiophile on a Radioshack Budget
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Old 02-18-2008, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffTay View Post

Turntable is level (per integrated level on turntable base) and is on a wood shelf.

(Do you recommend wood? I can switch back for other components)

Wood should be better than glass shelves. You still may want to play with isolation. However, first thing to check is tonearm setup.

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Originally Posted by JeffTay View Post

After playing with sub and speaker position and cables I listened today with Integra Phono amp and Project amp and neither sounded so bright anymore. Go figure?

You didn't by chance swap out cables? It's always possible you had a bad (or "audiophile") cable in there somewhere?

Let us know how it works out...
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by scientest View Post

Wood should be better than glass shelves. You still may want to play with isolation. However, first thing to check is tonearm setup.


You didn't by chance swap out cables? It's always possible you had a bad (or "audiophile") cable in there somewhere?
Let us know how it works out...

I also reversed my sub in the wall unit (wife’s insistence that it concealed in the wall unit) so the ports are facing outward through the grille you see in the lower left corner (facing the wall unit). I did change a set of cables from the project to the 7.8. But at first it seemed just as bright.

I was listening to 1975 Springsteen Born to Run last track first side "Backstreet" last night and the parts with a lot of piano and the obligatory Springsteen "screaming" were definitely in your face. I suspect that the characteristics of the B25 and the window may be contributing to that.

One thing I observed that I did in fidgeting with speaker location; when I set the speakers back to the position you saw in the photo I also decreased the toe-in. I thought maybe with the tweeters firing at me less directly the highs were not as forward.

When sitting on the floor you can assuredly tell that you are off axis and the highs are quite subdued.

Slouching did not affect the sound as dramatically and was difficult for me to hear the difference.

I am curios what you meant by “bad (or "audiophile")"?

I need to pull the turntable out of the unit and find the manual or some online PDF about testing the alignment of the tone arm etc. It will be a large task and one that as a seventeen year old listening on my Technics fully auto through my Pioneer SA 606 and AR 17's did not even cross my
mind as something to be done. (Oh about 27 years ago)

I found this in an online review

“Though horns, piano and massed strings can occasionally be rendered as just a bit too forward, for the most part, midrange timbre is excellent. Vocals are rich and full, with that hint of body that makes vinyl so irresistible. The aggressiveness shows up occasionally in the upper midrange, for example on "The Thrill Is Gone" from Patricia Barber’s Café Blue [Premonition Records 737], where it manifests itself as a slight hardness to the piano.”

http://www.soundstage.com/vinyl/vinyl200009.htm

Which supports my findings and maybe shows the 7.8 to be more transparent that the Act 3. Of course the reviewer's system is much beyond my price range.

Rotel Audiophile on a Radioshack Budget
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffTay View Post

I am curios what you meant by bad (or "audiophile")"?

Sorry, a bit of a joke; cables can be bad, poor insulation, poor solder joints, etc. Some high end (audiophile) cables have weird inductance etc. that can cause them to act like filters (usually more on the top end so one would not expect your problem in such a case). The "audiophile" cables can have issues as bad as normal cables with problems so I was dumping them all in the same bucket...
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:37 PM
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I pulled out my TT and cleaned it and set the tracking weight and anti skate based upon some guides I found online. I put it back in (after I had run Multieq to make sure my fiddling had not misadjusted anything) put on a LP (Alan Parsons Greatest) and dang if it did not sound bright again. AAUGH now I have to find were it was before. I was tracking at about 1.5 and on the first ring for AS. Now I am tacking 1.7 and AS on the middle ring.

If you have any thoughts let me hear them. I will wait so as not to throw to many variables into the process.

Thanks for the back and forth Scientist. It is making me think through the process and I am learning how to attack the acoustic problems.

Wife will not budge on window coverings.

PS I have never really spent more than about $40 on a pair of cables. No $200 cable pairs in my system. Do have some monster and other mid-level cables. Not the radio shack $10 sets .

Rotel Audiophile on a Radioshack Budget
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Old 02-19-2008, 06:41 AM
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Could somebody please use a measuring tape and let me know the exact height of their T55 speakers? Please measure in the middle. The T65's I have are 39" tall and yet the PSB website states 38.5" tall. Most of their measurements on the website are stated incorrectly.

thanks,

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Old 02-19-2008, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffTay View Post

I pulled out my TT and cleaned it and set the tracking weight and anti skate based upon some guides I found online. I put it back in (after I had run Multieq to make sure my fiddling had not misadjusted anything) put on a LP (Alan Parsons Greatest) and dang if it did not sound bright again. AAUGH now I have to find were it was before. I was tracking at about 1.5 and on the first ring for AS. Now I am tacking 1.7 and AS on the middle ring.

I once had a guy work for me who used to say "if you can't make something better make it worse"... At least at this point you've managed to identify that the turntable setup plays a big part in what you are hearing. It seems likely at this point the issue really is your tone arm and cartridge setup and that the amp speaker combination are just letting you hear it where you didn't hear it before. I'm probably not the best person to help you with such things, but since I don't have specific recommendations on where else to look (anyone?) you results do raise some more questions:

1) Does your tonearm have a Vertical Tracking Alignment (VTA) and did you check it?

2) Are you sure the cartridge is mounted properly in the head shell (and not skewed to one side to the other)?

3) Did you use as force gauge to set the tracking weight or did you just go by what the manufacturer has marked on the tonearm? I'm assuming that the new tracking weight is what is recommended but if not how did you arrive at it?

4) Similarly, how did you arrive at the new anti-skate?

As for the wife and the curtains, can you budget for a new wife?
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Old 02-19-2008, 01:29 PM
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Does anyone have experience with the G-Design series? A dealer nearby has the GT1s, and I spent some time listening to them (and comparing them to the T55s) and liked what I heard (though the listening conditions were pretty poor). But he doesn't have the GC1 and GB1s, so I couldn't listen to them. Since I will be using the speakers mostly for movies, I'm especially interested in how the center speaker sounds. But, no dealer within 60 miles of me (at least) carries it.

Can anyone comment on the GC1 and how well it blends with the GT1s?

Only auditioned at dealer, they blend very well; wouldn't worry at all. Found G-Design to be way superior than Image Series. Not forward and do a great job at taming the highs.
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Old 02-19-2008, 02:26 PM
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CouchMan1
I own the PSB G-Desing towers and center.
PSB G-Design towers and center, and the center blends very well even though the driver is smaller. I have used many settings with the center and each sound very good, although there are times that dialouge seems a bit muddied. I really don't think it is the speaker as much as other variables.

I auditioned the T55 and T65 before hearing these. I thought no comparison.

UMtiger
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Old 02-19-2008, 03:00 PM
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Hi all, quick question:I just scored an image c60 center channel for 2 bills, and am bargain shopping for some fronts to go along. Would image 4ts work as mains. Timbre matched? Or should i grab the B25s for about 60 dollars more?
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Old 02-19-2008, 04:02 PM
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In my opinion I would grab the B25's. Of course a sub will be needed.

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Old 02-19-2008, 04:19 PM
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Got a sub already, Bic h100. Just got the upgrade bug already for my front 3, decided w/deal on center channel, PSBs seemed like the way to go, with B25s available 300 pair, my budget was 500 for upgrading front 3. No brainer, IMHO.
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Old 02-19-2008, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy25 View Post

Hi all, quick question:I just scored an image c60 center channel for 2 bills, and am bargain shopping for some fronts to go along. Would image 4ts work as mains. Timbre matched? Or should i grab the B25s for about 60 dollars more?

I own T45, which is the newer version of the 4T, and also B25. I like the T45 sound better than B25. Now, be advised that T45 is an upgraded 4T, and better sounding. I have read reviews where the reviewer started talking about how much he loved his 4T's, but along came the B25, and he found it as good, or slightly better than the 4T. So, it is up to you. You can find that review in the PSB Speakers website, just look for reviews on the B25.
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Old 02-19-2008, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jimmy25 View Post

Hi all, quick question:I just scored an image c60 center channel for 2 bills, and am bargain shopping for some fronts to go along. Would image 4ts work as mains. Timbre matched? Or should i grab the B25s for about 60 dollars more?

B25s, T55s or T65s.

John
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Old 02-19-2008, 05:43 PM
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Unless i find an unbelievable deal somewhere, i think the B25s are the most cake i can afford to dish out. Would my Onkyo 574 be enough to drive these, or is that going to have to be my next upgrade?

I am happy enough with my BIC H100 sub, and i will move my Athena B1.2s to be my new rear surrounds. Hopefully that will be all the upgrades i need for my HT except for a TV. Gotta quit buying audio stuff 1st. Anyways, i think i'll be happy w/PSB setup, as long as the receiver will work. Thanks for the help.
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Old 02-19-2008, 10:43 PM
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Anybody have T55's they can measure for me? With the tapered shape, you have to measure from the middle in order to get the total height. Thanks
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Old 02-19-2008, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scientest View Post

I once had a guy work for me who used to say "if you can't make something better make it worse"... At least at this point you've managed to identify that the turntable setup plays a big part in what you are hearing. It seems likely at this point the issue really is your tone arm and cartridge setup and that the amp speaker combination are just letting you hear it where you didn't hear it before. I'm probably not the best person to help you with such things, but since I don't have specific recommendations on where else to look (anyone?) you results do raise some more questions:

1) Does your tonearm have a Vertical Tracking Alignment (VTA) and did you check it?

2) Are you sure the cartridge is mounted properly in the head shell (and not skewed to one side to the other)?

3) Did you use as force gauge to set the tracking weight or did you just go by what the manufacturer has marked on the tonearm? I'm assuming that the new tracking weight is what is recommended but if not how did you arrive at it?

4) Similarly, how did you arrive at the new anti-skate?

As for the wife and the curtains, can you budget for a new wife?


1) yes it does and no, I have not found the resource on how to check it. I cannot find my manual.

2) I think it is esentially in the same spot. I have not messed with it and do not remember banging it out of position.

3) I used a Project gauge. From a site and confirmed it with other sites. They say about 1.75.

4) see 3

I have played with the toe-in since the last run around. You may remember I mentioned that changing toe in seemed to make a difference. I thought reducing the toe in would have the effect of not having the tweeters driving so directly at me. It seems that I was wrong. With more toe in (15-20degrees as a swag) as oppsed to 5-10 reduce the brightness of the speakers. It would be interesting for some one else to give it a go with different toe-in and see what results they have.

Do you have an opinion about toe in?

Another thing I just noticed, it seems when I use the D4 cleaner the brightness fades while the cleaner is wet. Maybe my mind playing tricks, but isn't that the whole experience here that our system's job is to trick our mind into believing that the artist is in the living room playing to just us?

I tried a blanket over the window and it seemed to make a difference.

BTW I want to replace my sub and am leaning towad the
5i any input?

Rotel Audiophile on a Radioshack Budget
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Old 02-20-2008, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffTay View Post

1) yes it does and no, I have not found the resource on how to check it. I cannot find my manual.

That could be hugely important for the problem at hand, basically you're changing the way the stylus contacts the grooves and the resultant response curve. If you can figure out how to change it you should be able to check it visually and by ear. Visually, most cartridges should sit perfectly parallel to the turntable surface (some have a line on the body that is to be parallel). If it's not too hard to change you can tweak it up or down a little and see what happens when you listen...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffTay View Post

2) I think it is esentially in the same spot. I have not messed with it and do not remember banging it out of position.

Double check that the cartridge is perfectly in line with the head shell...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffTay View Post

I thought reducing the toe in would have the effect of not have the tweeters driving so directly at me. It seems that I was wrong. With more toe in (15-20degrees as a swag) as oppsed to 5-10 reduce the brightness of the speakers. It would be interesting for some one else to give it a go with different toe-in and see what results they have.

Do you have an opinion about toe in?

PSBs typically have pretty good dispersion, minor changes shouldn't have a lot of effect. However, I don't know the B25's well enough to guess how they'd react. One big thing; by changing the toe in you are moving the reflections off the side walls, have a look at the first reflection calculator:

First reflection calculator

(just set a fake first row and ignore it).

The second thing is that you are, of course, also playing with the off axis response. The B25s may have some peaks off axis (I don't know). In addition to playing with toe in the other thing to play with is distance from the walls though we may bump up against WAFs again....

Quote:
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Another thing I just noticed, it seems when I use the D4 cleaner the brightness fades while the cleaner is wet.

I'd guess you're effectively damping the needle a bit. More evidence that the cartridge setup is part of the issue....

Quote:
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I tried a blanket over the window and it seemed to make a difference.

I bet your wife loved the results.....? You're basically in a tough position, a small room with limited ability to treat the resultant acoustics. The good thing is you're mainly having problems with the turntable which suggests you should be able to focus on getting it to do the right thing.

Quote:
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BTW I want to replace my sub and am leaning towad the 5i any input?

For your room that would probably work well. I'm more familiar with the 6i (and the Sub III which I have) and I think the 6i is a good sub for people that aren't complete bass freaks who have medium sized rooms. I hate to say it but I think subs are one area where you can sometimes get a little better bang for the buck by going with a different manufacturer than PSB.

Personally, my next sub will be a DYI. Hard to justify in my current house since my room is "problematic" (open design to the breakfast room / kitchen), but there's actually space to do either an in ceiling Infinite Baffle (IB) or more work (but the way I'd like to go) some form of slot loading design behind the fire place (we have an equipment room behind the back wall of our den which could be exploited for this). Fun? Wow!...
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Old 02-20-2008, 09:09 AM
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First Post in the PSB official thread but I am the new owner of the Image T65's. I did the unthinkable and bought them blind but at the asking price I just could not resist and after reading this entire thread and other peer and professional reviews I thought why not..

I have not heard too much though in this thread in terms of the T65s Most of the talk about the Image series is mainly between the T45 and B25. So far I can not say I love them but I am also suffering from a head cold at the moment and nothing sounds as it should..

I can say the bass these bad boys produce is unreal, I was doing some 2 channel audio and my friend was like turn your sub off I wanna hear what they can do.. I said my sub is off im running just the towers, he went over put his hand to the sub port and ear up to the sub and was astonished that all the bass was coming from just the towers.. It was not boomy at all either it was crisp, fast and clean just the way I like it..

I will however hold my final judgement till I am 100% better and can actually hear anything other than bass, as of right now high frequencies are just not registering right..
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Old 02-20-2008, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by jimmy25 View Post

Unless i find an unbelievable deal somewhere, i think the B25s are the most cake i can afford to dish out. Would my Onkyo 574 be enough to drive these, or is that going to have to be my next upgrade?

I am happy enough with my BIC H100 sub, and i will move my Athena B1.2s to be my new rear surrounds. Hopefully that will be all the upgrades i need for my HT except for a TV. Gotta quit buying audio stuff 1st. Anyways, i think i'll be happy w/PSB setup, as long as the receiver will work. Thanks for the help.

The B25, as most PSB's, is an easy to drive speaker, which your 574 should easily handle. Yes, I would look into upgrading the receiver, but I wouldn't make it a top priority for the time being.
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Old 02-20-2008, 11:05 AM
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Thanks PR Audio, that is what i wanted to hear. Now, i can spend some time figuring out which TV i can save up to get...another forum to start sifting through, and thanks again for all the help from everyone on this forum so far! I have rediscovered the joy of watching my DVD collection again.
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Old 02-20-2008, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UMtiger View Post

CouchMan1
I own the PSB G-Desing towers and center.
PSB G-Design towers and center, and the center blends very well even though the driver is smaller. I have used many settings with the center and each sound very good, although there are times that dialouge seems a bit muddied. I really don't think it is the speaker as much as other variables.

I auditioned the T55 and T65 before hearing these. I thought no comparison.

UMtiger

UMtiger, thanks to you and PR Audio for the feedback. That's very helpful. One more question: do you own the GB1s? I'm wondering if they have screw holes on the back for use with mounting brackets, and if PSB offers matching brackets that I can use to rotate and aim the GB1s as desired.

My current 5.1 setup has direct radiating speakers as the side speakers. I have them wall-mounted on some brackets that allow me to rotate them side to side and up and down, so I can point them at just the right spot on the rear wall to give me a uniform sound field for surround effects (kind of a poor-man's dipole arrangement). This actually works quite well in my space. I'm wondering if I'll be able to do the same thing with the GT1s. The GT1s are heavier than my existing speakers, so I'm not sure my current brackets will hold them, hence my question about PSB brackets -- I don't see any on their Web site. Plus, for my existing brackets I had to drill screw holes in the backs of my speakers, which I'm reluctant to do with the more-expensive GT1s.
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Old 02-20-2008, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by scientest View Post

For your room that would probably work well. I'm more familiar with the 6i (and the Sub III which I have) and I think the 6i is a good sub for people that aren't complete bass freaks who have medium sized rooms. I hate to say it but I think subs are one area where you can sometimes get a little better bang for the buck by going with a different manufacturer than PSB.

Personally, my next sub will be a DYI. Hard to justify in my current house since my room is "problematic" (open design to the breakfast room / kitchen), but there's actually space to do either an in ceiling Infinite Baffle (IB) or more work (but the way I'd like to go) some form of slot loading design behind the fire place (we have an equipment room behind the back wall of our den which could be exploited for this). Fun? Wow!...

A local delaer has a $1300 Martin Logan Sub on sale for $700. I forget the model (last years I am sure), but what do you think of ML?

Rotel Audiophile on a Radioshack Budget
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Old 02-20-2008, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffTay View Post

A local delaer has a $1300 Martin Logan Sub on sale for $700. I forget the model (last years I am sure), but what do you think of ML?

Umm, it's very nice looking? It gets good reviews but I personally don't know anything about it. I believe you can do better for $700. (For $1300, forget about it). Have a look here:

Official Craigsub rankings thread

Post #8 in particular.

There are a lot of people here on AVS who are _very_ passionate about their subs. Find the appropriate sub thread and ask opinions about specifics and you'll almost certainly get a couple answers....
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Old 02-20-2008, 06:59 PM
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First Post in the PSB official thread but I am the new owner of the Image T65's. I did the unthinkable and bought them blind but at the asking price I just could not resist and after reading this entire thread and other peer and professional reviews I thought why not..

I have not heard too much though in this thread in terms of the T65s Most of the talk about the Image series is mainly between the T45 and B25. So far I can not say I love them but I am also suffering from a head cold at the moment and nothing sounds as it should..

I can say the bass these bad boys produce is unreal, I was doing some 2 channel audio and my friend was like turn your sub off I wanna hear what they can do.. I said my sub is off im running just the towers, he went over put his hand to the sub port and ear up to the sub and was astonished that all the bass was coming from just the towers.. It was not boomy at all either it was crisp, fast and clean just the way I like it..

I will however hold my final judgement till I am 100% better and can actually hear anything other than bass, as of right now high frequencies are just not registering right..

I figured you'd show up here. Like at HDF, let me know how you like them. I'm still strongly considering them. The question now is black or maple. I just hate that I can't get a center and surrounds in maple to match.
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Old 02-20-2008, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Lilmase1153 View Post

First Post in the PSB official thread but I am the new owner of the Image T65's. I did the unthinkable and bought them blind but at the asking price I just could not resist and after reading this entire thread and other peer and professional reviews I thought why not..

I have not heard too much though in this thread in terms of the T65s Most of the talk about the Image series is mainly between the T45 and B25. So far I can not say I love them but I am also suffering from a head cold at the moment and nothing sounds as it should..

I can say the bass these bad boys produce is unreal, I was doing some 2 channel audio and my friend was like turn your sub off I wanna hear what they can do.. I said my sub is off im running just the towers, he went over put his hand to the sub port and ear up to the sub and was astonished that all the bass was coming from just the towers.. It was not boomy at all either it was crisp, fast and clean just the way I like it..

I will however hold my final judgement till I am 100% better and can actually hear anything other than bass, as of right now high frequencies are just not registering right..

I agree about the bass. If your subwoofer is on and you turn it off, of course you'll notice the "lack" of bass in a comparison, but, if you have good room acoustics, the T65's alone have very solid and deep low bass that is smooth and tight. With enough power, you can really get things slamming. I have played tracks with nice deep low bass and taken off the grilles and watched the T65's woofers and they hardly move.
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Old 02-20-2008, 09:26 PM
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Hello everyone. I posted here about 8 months ago when I was considering dumping my JBL setup in favor of some PSBs. Unfortunately, that deal fell through and we moved, bought a house, and started a new job, delaying my plans.... Anyway, I finally got around to just ebaying my old gear. I picked up a nice set of image B15s on ebay that showed up today (these will be the rears) and a pair of T45s on audiogon which should arrive Friday. I need to shop for a C40 in black eventually, but I need to wait a while to appease my wallet.....

Anyway, I've got the B15s on some cheap stands temporarily in the main channel position, and man am I impressed. Even with no sub, these little speakers do a solid job. The bass is lacking some to be sure, but it's not missing completely and everything else (hi's and mids) is amazing. My receiver is an older Sony ES (DA2ES) and it does a great job with these. When I auditioned the T45s almost a year ago, they were using an NAD integrated and I was worried about how the PSB gear would sound with my receiver (Sony doesn't seem to get a lot of positive attention for their receivers and amps), but I'm pleasantly surprised. I can't wait for my T45s!

Panasonic P46ST30 | Denon AVR-X2000 | PSB T45/B15/C40 | Oppo BDP-83 | DirecTV
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