PSB Speakers Owners thread - Page 50 - AVS Forum
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post #1471 of 5643 Old 11-06-2008, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by nlpearman View Post

notoriousmatty,

jostenmeat spearheaded a discussion on this tread about choosing your left, center and right speakers in order to optimize the front soundstage - read posts 1385 through to 1407. The gist is that the best front soundstage is likely produced by three identical speakers at the same height. Since, that won't work for most of us, we have to evaluate compromises. Some say, and the evidence is convincing, that one of the worst compromises is the standard woofer-tweeter-woofer or midrange-tweeter-midrange (MTM) center channel design, mostly due to inferior off-axis response (essentially meaning a smaller sweetspot).

It seems that better compromises would be (1) a capable, normal bookshelf speaker functioning as a center or (2) interestingly, an MTM center channel arranged vertically instead of horizontally.

While the idea makes sense, I dismissed it initially, mostly since I see MTM center channels everywhere I look. I read several articles about it as well, of which these were probably the best:

http://www.audioholics.com/education...peaker-designs

http://www.nousaine.com/cen%20chan%201.htm

However, given my room layout, I may end up with a C40 anyhow. My mind can change between now and purchase time, so time will tell.


Thats a very interesting read. I never really thought about getting another b25 for a center channel standing vertically, probably because Ive NEVER seen it done in any home theater ive personally seen or in any picture EVER. Although I guess in a way it makes sense. I can find the c40 for under 200 bucks but I dont know how ill find a single B25. let me know what you do.
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post #1472 of 5643 Old 11-07-2008, 09:08 AM
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If you get two pair of B25's you can have use 3 for surrounds and one for the center. I don't think you'll be able to find a single.
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post #1473 of 5643 Old 11-07-2008, 04:39 PM
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I wonder what it would sound like if you wired 2 B25's in parallel for a center?

Cheers,

jr

Knowledge is good. - Emil Faber, Faber College
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post #1474 of 5643 Old 11-07-2008, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by au-734 View Post

I wonder what it would sound like if you wired 2 B25's in parallel for a center?

The whole point of using a vertical center is to avoid the horizontal lobing issues that result from having two similar drivers beside each other so you'd have to run them one above each other. Now that might work WRT horizontal lobing but the result would have a completely different impedance from the rest of the B25's and the load presented to the amplifier. One could certainly give it a try, but if you've got 4 B25's and are looking for something to do with the on that's left over I suspect you'd be better off using it as a bookend in another room than running two in parallel....
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post #1475 of 5643 Old 11-07-2008, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by au-734 View Post

I wonder what it would sound like if you wired 2 B25's in parallel for a center?

Cheers,

jr

Not likely possible without putting far too great a load on your amp. Two 6 ohm speakers in parallel would = 3 ohms with a 2 ohm or lower minimum. While I myself have a fairly robust amp section in my SR9600 receiver, I still wouldn't subject it to such low ohm loads. Regardless, it's not going to sound good in my opinion.
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post #1476 of 5643 Old 11-07-2008, 08:45 PM
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I am going with the B25 and C40 setup here for a smaller sized setup (14x11 room) How many have used the LR1 for surrounds? I think the B1's might stick out too much mounted on the wall. I am worried the LR1 with 3.5in drivers might not cut it though. So anybody have feedback on using the LR1's
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post #1477 of 5643 Old 11-08-2008, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbsears87 View Post

I am going with the B25 and C40 setup here for a smaller sized setup (14x11 room) How many have used the LR1 for surrounds? I think the B1's might stick out too much mounted on the wall. I am worried the LR1 with 3.5in drivers might not cut it though. So anybody have feedback on using the LR1's

dbsears,
It depends a bit on your intended use; for purely HT it may be OK--but I think most here would not recommend it. However, if you will/might play multi-channel music, then I would definitely not recommend having so many different woofer sizes in your set-up.
In my case, I started with a mix of DefTec 5.25" FL/FR, a 4.5" center and 4.5" surrounds. After an upgrade to 5.25" PSB speakers all around (2x T45, a C40 and 2x B15s) it was a world of improvement for the multichannel music--no comparison. I found less of an improvement for HT (although still noticeable). My room is similar to yours (18 x 13) and the B15s are mounted on the wall. Fortunately my better half is very cool about the relatively large B15s on the wall (she loves music)--if that was not the case, it could have been an issue!! I can post pics, if that would help.
Your cash, your call; but if able, I would try and get surrounds which as closely match your FL and FR speakers as possible (same series, same woofer size, etc.).
The DefTec dealer tried to steer me the matched direction in the beginning, but I choose not too since I was easing back into this hobby cash wise

Cheers,
XEagleDriver

Cheers,
XEagleDriver

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post #1478 of 5643 Old 11-08-2008, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by notoriousmatty View Post

Thats a very interesting read. I never really thought about getting another b25 for a center channel standing vertically, probably because Ive NEVER seen it done in any home theater ive personally seen or in any picture EVER. Although I guess in a way it makes sense. I can find the c40 for under 200 bucks but I dont know how ill find a single B25. let me know what you do.

Well, I've finally moved from being a PSB admirer to a PSB owner.

I came into a windfall with which I was ready to run down to my local PSB dealer and order my T45/C40/B15 setup lickety split. On the same day, however, I saw and ad for a set of second-hand Image 5Ts for $150. I couldn't pass it up. Cleaned 'em up, bi-wired 'em, and listened to them this afternoon.

Best speakers I've ever owned.

Bear in mind, my previous mains were some bookshelves taken from a long-discontinued Panasonic minisystem (which are now my rears). One day my mains will be upgraded from last gen PSBs... but I'm not in a rush.

I figure I might still get the C40 and the B15s even though the 5T has 6.5" drivers.

I spent my savings on an Anti-Mode 8033 in order to help tighten the bass in my woefully untreated room. I'm biting my nails waiting for that thing!

Upgraditis Anonymous
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post #1479 of 5643 Old 11-09-2008, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XEagleDriver View Post

dbsears,
It depends a bit on your intended use; for purely HT it may be OK--but I think most here would not recommend it. However, if you will/might play multi-channel music, then I would definitely not recommend having so many different woofer sizes in your set-up.
In my case, I started with a mix of DefTec 5.25" FL/FR, a 4.5" center and 4.5" surrounds. After an upgrade to 5.25" PSB speakers all around (2x T45, a C40 and 2x B15s) it was a world of improvement for the multichannel music--no comparison. I found less of an improvement for HT (although still noticeable). My room is similar to yours (18 x 13) and the B15s are mounted on the wall. Fortunately my better half is very cool about the relatively large B15s on the wall (she loves music)--if that was not the case, it could have been an issue!! I can post pics, if that would help.
Your cash, your call; but if able, I would try and get surrounds which as closely match your FL and FR speakers as possible (same series, same woofer size, etc.).
The DefTec dealer tried to steer me the matched direction in the beginning, but I choose not too since I was easing back into this hobby cash wise

Cheers,
XEagleDriver

Sure I would love to see pics if you have some. The extra $$$ for the B15's is not a problem I just have an inconvenient spot to mount the surrounds and many people tend to bump them. I am coming from Def Tech ProMonitor200, C2 center, and BP1X surrounds. I was really hoping to get dipole/bipole surrounds again because of the size and space but the PSB's surround are outrageous price. I have read some people prefer the Alpha B1's also since they will be wall mounted.
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post #1480 of 5643 Old 11-09-2008, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by nlpearman View Post

Well, I've finally moved from being a PSB admirer to a PSB owner.

CONGRATS! and nice score!


Quote:


I spent my savings on an Anti-Mode 8033 in order to help tighten the bass in my woefully untreated room. I'm biting my nails waiting for that thing!

I don't know anything about this device. Thanks for sharing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbsears87 View Post

I have read some people prefer the Alpha B1's also since they will be wall mounted.

I'm not sure if people would prefer the Alphas, its just that they have keyholes for easier mounting.

 

 

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post #1481 of 5643 Old 11-09-2008, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by scientest View Post

The whole point of using a vertical center is to avoid the horizontal lobing issues that result from having two similar drivers beside each other so you'd have to run them one above each other. Now that might work WRT horizontal lobing but the result would have a completely different impedance from the rest of the B25's and the load presented to the amplifier. One could certainly give it a try, but if you've got 4 B25's and are looking for something to do with the on that's left over I suspect you'd be better off using it as a bookend in another room than running two in parallel....

I would not think lobing issues would come into play until somewhere around 20 - 25 degrees off axis. One of these days I might try it if I happen to have a free day or two.

Cheers,

jr

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post #1482 of 5643 Old 11-09-2008, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cpc View Post

Not likely possible without putting far too great a load on your amp. Two 6 ohm speakers in parallel would = 3 ohms with a 2 ohm or lower minimum. While I myself have a fairly robust amp section in my SR9600 receiver, I still wouldn't subject it to such low ohm loads. Regardless, it's not going to sound good in my opinion.

A 3 ohm nominal load would most likely break the amp sections in most modern AVRs, I don't know what possessed me when I wrote that, my old EE teachers would kill me. Transistors tend to self destruct when they see loads like that.

I would not try it with my 4308. However, I do have a separate amp that would drive a 3 ohm nominal load. It would drive a dead short

Cheers,

jr

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post #1483 of 5643 Old 11-09-2008, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by au-734 View Post

I would not think lobing issues would come into play until somewhere around 20 - 25 degrees off axis. One of these days I might try it if I happen to have a free day or two.

Cheers,

jr

I am presently under the impression that its happening at well under 20 degrees, let alone more than.

No proof, but there is no seat in my HT that is truly dead center. (4 seats per row). I sometimes adjust my body so that my head is towards the middle . . .

 

 

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post #1484 of 5643 Old 11-09-2008, 06:57 PM
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Don't the woofers crossover with each other to prevent the lobing problem in higher quality center horizontal speakers?
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post #1485 of 5643 Old 11-09-2008, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by au-734 View Post

I would not think lobing issues would come into play until somewhere around 20 - 25 degrees off axis. One of these days I might try it if I happen to have a free day or two.

Depends on the frequency and the spacing of the drivers. Basically, as soon as the distance between the center of percussion of any two drivers is more than 1/2 the wavelength of any given frequency they reproduce you start to get lobing. With two book shelves sitting beside each other the tweeters are likely going to be more than 1/2 wave length apart for _every_ frequency they reproduce...
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post #1486 of 5643 Old 11-09-2008, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Don't the woofers crossover with each other to prevent the lobing problem in higher quality center horizontal speakers?

Some manufacturers will use a 2.5 crossover design with horizontal MTM designs; one woofer crosses over higher than the other. This keeps the higher frequencies (with the shorter wavelengths) out of one of the drivers and reduces the problem. Of course the design is now asymmetrical, but that may or may not matter...
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post #1487 of 5643 Old 11-10-2008, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scientest View Post

Some manufacturers will use a 2.5 crossover design with horizontal MTM designs; one woofer crosses over higher than the other. This keeps the higher frequencies (with the shorter wavelengths) out of one of the drivers and reduces the problem. Of course the design is no asymmetrical, but that may or may not matter...

Is PSB one?
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post #1488 of 5643 Old 11-10-2008, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Is PSB one?

No, not that I am aware of.

I should also mention that some of the designs will could end up being 3.5 way (as opposed to 2.5) if they add a midrange driver. However, with three way designs you might not have very much going on with the lower range drivers reproducing shorter wavelengths that it's a big concern. Then again, depending on the drivers, crossover design, the room and the phase of the moon, some people might still consider it an issue no matter what...
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post #1489 of 5643 Old 11-10-2008, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Is PSB one?

I know for sure that the PSB Image series and Alpha series speakers are 2.5 way design as mentioned.
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post #1490 of 5643 Old 11-10-2008, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post

I know for sure that the PSB Image series and Alpha series speakers are 2.5 way design as mentioned.

Don't think so, the C60, C40 and the C1 just spec. a single crossover point and I've never seen any documentation suggesting that they use a 2.5 way design. What makes you think otherwise?
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post #1491 of 5643 Old 11-10-2008, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by scientest View Post

Don't think so, the C60, C40 and the C1 just spec. a single crossover point and I've never seen any documentation suggesting that they use a 2.5 way design. What makes you think otherwise?


I meant the towers in the series, not the bookshelves or center channels. I had forgotten to put that in there. Thnaks for pointing that out.
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post #1492 of 5643 Old 11-10-2008, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by dbsears87 View Post

I have read some people prefer the Alpha B1's also since they will be wall mounted.

You can wall-mount a C40 or a C60 - it's just not easy. B-Tech makes some brackets that will do the job if you hit a stud when putting them in. Do back a bit in the thread and you'll see my thoughts on it, having done it myself with a C60.
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post #1493 of 5643 Old 11-10-2008, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by erwos View Post

You can wall-mount a C40 or a C60 - it's just not easy. B-Tech makes some brackets that will do the job if you hit a stud when putting them in. Do back a bit in the thread and you'll see my thoughts on it, having done it myself with a C60.

I use these for mounting my 1Bs;

http://www.btech-usa.com/bt77.html
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post #1494 of 5643 Old 11-10-2008, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post

I meant the towers in the series, not the bookshelves or center channels. I had forgotten to put that in there. Thnaks for pointing that out.

Ah, yes. Pretty sure almost all the big floor standers in the entire line are similar. Which makes it clear that Paul is well aware of how to do this and has decided not to do so for the center channels for some reason... ;-)
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post #1495 of 5643 Old 11-10-2008, 02:42 PM
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Yes, the towers are all 2.5 way designs. Center channel speakers are single crossover. You know what? The more I think about this, the more I can recall problems. I almost always have a bit of dialouge intelligibility issues when watching movies unless I am the only one watching and I'm dead center. I remember never being able to get the dialouge to sound right when my mom was watching, as she is hard of hearing with only one good ear. I'd always try the NIGHT MODE or Dynamic Compression etc etc and still I'd have to raise the volume but it always sounded less than ideal. I'm definitely going to see if I can't try a vertical center channel. I can't see how bad it would be just to stick the tweeter at the top of the C60 cabinet. May take a bit of work, but flipping the front face parts around so it's tweeter at the top and then two woofer below should be ok.

What if any problems should I have with two identical drivers crossed over identically and facing forward one above the other?
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post #1496 of 5643 Old 11-10-2008, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by cpc View Post

What if any problems should I have with two identical drivers crossed over identically and facing forward one above the other?

Well now you've moved the lobing into the vertical plane... The whole rationale behind the D'Appolito (MTM or (WTW if you prefer)) design is that you exploit the lobes to avoid floor and ceiling bounce (the lobes result in a null at the primary reflection points). So, a vertical MTM design turns out to be a good thing in comparison to some other designs.

From what I know, the reason PSB uses a vertical TWW or TMWW design with a 2.5 or 3.5 crossover is then can get the tweeters to a normal listening position without having a really tall cabinet and still mitigate the floor bounce (by carefully exploiting the angle of the resultant vertical null lobe).

IOW; just flip the center vertically and give it a shot before you go screwing around with the driver placement on the baffle...
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post #1497 of 5643 Old 11-10-2008, 03:44 PM
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PSB Synchrony One

I just bought a set, L, R and center. They are awesome. So detailed and sweet, yet will play to thunderous levels. Pipe organ, rock, jazz, vocals, especially female. My brother in law that pays harp, said he has never heard his recordings sound so good before, except of course the real thing...

I have been building my own since the '80's. Dynaudio drivers, Sanders elecdtrontatic etc.

I wonder why didn't buy some before. Nice looking too, and have that nice narrow footprint. I use for critical stereo listening as well as home theater. I"m hearing things I haven't heard before.

B & K video 5 and NAD T163
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post #1498 of 5643 Old 11-10-2008, 04:26 PM
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Hi Folks,

I've been a PSB speaker owner for quite some time (I have a pair of PSB Century 800i towers that I am still in love with...and have fiddled around with many other lines as well).

I am almost finished renovating my basement where I will put a new home theatre, and have decided that I will only keep my 800i towers for 2 channel music, and my Subseries 6i subwoofer (I'm going to sell the rest of my matching Century speakers, which consist of 200ci centre and 2 pairs of 300i bookshelves).

I want to get into the Image series, just for 7.1 Home Theatre use (since I'm keeping the 800i set). I've read numerous posts in this thread, and I think I am sold on the idea of getting identical speakers across the front (3 bookshelves is what I'm thinking...I'll take a hit on the 4th and keep it as a spare, as I've found a PSB dealer that is willing to give me a pretty good deal on whatever I buy).

I had a couple of questions that I was hoping you folks would be able to help me with.

1. Since I am buying my television and television stand brand new, I have the option of buying a stand that will accomodate a PSB Image bookshelf speaker as a centre. The thing is, it will be positioned with the tweeter lower than ear level, while the left and right channel will have the tweeter exactly at ear level. I realize that I will be advised to raise the front of the speaker to direct the sound towards ear level, but is this too much of a compromise to justify the purchase of the new speakers? In other words, I realize the benefits of this arrangement if all 3 speakers are on the same level, but would it make more sense to keep my existing setup of Century 800i R/L and Century 200i Centre, or do you think I would benefit audibly from a 3 bookshelf speaker setup that doesn't have all the speakers on exactly the same plane? I have the money to spend on the new Images, so that is not a major factor, but at the same time, I wouldn't want to spend the money for a very slight improvement.

2. I'm tossed between the B25 and B15 bookself speakers from the Image line for my front end. Again, money is not the main factor here. I would gladly pickup 2 sets of B25 bookshelf speakers, but I have also read some conflicting opinions of which model is better for home theatre purposes. I've read on some reviews that the B25 can be a bit "slow" or make male vocals sound a bit "chesty".
My room is about 12 feet wide and about 15 feet deep. But I will be sitting about 8 feet away from the short wall where the front stage will be located (my wife wants to make use of the space behind me for our baby's play area).
Do you have any opinions on which model I should go for?

I realize that I've asked subjective questions here, but I was just looking for some opinions from some folks who are more knowledgeable with the PSB Image series than I am. I have auditioned both speakers myself, and they both sounded great to me, but that was in a 2 channel music listening environment (my only option), and these speakers will not be used for 2 channel listening at all.

Looking forward to hearing some opinions. Oh, and by the way, they will be driven either by a Denon 2809/989 or a Sherwood Newcastle R-972 (if it ever gets released).

Thanks,
Bobby
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post #1499 of 5643 Old 11-11-2008, 05:06 PM
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1. Even plane, and vertically arrayed drivers are two different benefits. IMO, the second aspect is more important, at least in my own setup... something I wish I enjoyed. Even plane is IMO even less important than the second, at least if there are multiple viewers spread out. However, if the center is below ear level, it would be best if you can at least angle it towards ears.

2. Get the B25s. If only for the increased power handling. You will thank me if you ever watch Band of Brothers on BD. (serious mid-range peaks with DTS-MA).

IMO, 2809 is pretty expensive. You could pay less than half, and get an Onkyo 805, replete with push-pull amp, isolated from pre/pro, ultra cert'd to handle 3.2 ohms. JMO, otherwise Denon does make very fine receivers. Id maybe look at the 2808 for much less money though.

 

 

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post #1500 of 5643 Old 11-11-2008, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbsears87 View Post

Sure I would love to see pics if you have some. . . .

dbsears,

I posted a set of 10 pics on Audioholics (I have belonged for a shorter time, but have more permissions as far as I can tell ).

Use the following bread crumb trail: "Audioholics Home Theater Forums > Audiophile Hangout > Member Systems Gallery > Eagle Roost part 1.

The pics of the B15 surrounds and mounts are in a second post titled "Eagle Roost - part 2"

Cheers,

Cheers,
XEagleDriver

SACD Collection: http://www.sa-cd.net/library/7966/1
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