Just get 3 same speakers for Front/Center channel? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm putting in-walls in on the wall with my plasma and i've only got 10" between studs for the center-channel, so I'm considering just buying 3 of the exact same speaker to use for front right, front left and center channel....i'd just turn the speaker sideways for the center one


will this sound as good as a speaker specified as a 'center channel speaker?'
will i be ok installing it on it's side?
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post #2 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 09:36 AM
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Since you will be using in wall speakers, I think getting three of the same model would work fine for you. I have three identical speakers (not in walls) and with one placed horizontal and the left and right placed vertical I notice no problem.

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post #3 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 09:37 AM
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IMO it is preferable, but not on its side.
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post #4 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 09:40 AM
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3 of the same speaker may be a better choice, as they will be perfectly matched. Don't turn the center one on its side if possible, as the side-to-side and vertical dispersion will be switched.
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post #5 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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i really need the center one to go sideways; how much will a non-audiophile notice the difference for movies if i go with a regular speaker sideways rather than a center speaker?
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post #6 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 11:33 AM
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Do you have any (bookshelf) speakers now? If so, try listening to some music and dialog with it right-side up, then lay it on its side and listen again. Just remember that different speakers have different dispersion patterns, and center channel speakers were designed for horizontal installation.
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post #7 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 11:45 AM
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It all comes down to the intellegability of the vocals at different seating positions, you don't need to be an audiophile to not to be able to discern dialogue. I would highly recommend you figure a way to orient the speaker vertically or come up with new plan.
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post #8 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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ok, i'll do some measuring to see if i can do it normally; it won't look quite as nice vertically as horizontally, but if it makes a big difference in hearing dialogue, then it's not worth it

hopefully i can find an in-wall center-channel that needs <10" mounting hole so I can just use a center-channel; but i haven't had much luck finding one
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post #9 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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well a normal center will have 2 woofers, right? and if these are 5.25" woofers, then it has to be more than 10" wide, so i'm either gonna have to go with 3.5 or 4" woofers if i use a center channel, which prolly isn't ideal

so i guess i'll have to go with a regular speaker, hopefully vertically
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post #10 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 12:22 PM
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And remember that if you are mounting them directly on the wall, don't get speakers with rear ports. Rear ports need at least a few inches room to breathe.
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post #11 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 12:32 PM
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...or get three of the (horizontally oriented) center channel speakers. You will be able to fit the Center Channel speaker, and all three will be identical.

Remember, since you are putting these in your wall, you won't have an easy way to fix this if you get it wrong. Identical main speakers are standard practice for good reasons.

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post #12 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousfun
...or get three of the (horizontally oriented) center channel speakers. You will be able to fit the Center Channel speaker, and all three will be identical.
And none will have uniform horizontal dispersion. That would be worse than one horizontal with the L/R vertical.

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Remember, since you are putting these in your wall, you won't have an easy way to fix this if you get it wrong. Identical main speakers are standard practice for good reasons.
Right. That's why he should do the experimenting/evaluating for himself, first.

Kal

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post #13 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholasp27
well a normal center will have 2 woofers, right? and if these are 5.25" woofers, then it has to be more than 10" wide, so i'm either gonna have to go with 3.5 or 4" woofers if i use a center channel, which prolly isn't ideal

so i guess i'll have to go with a regular speaker, hopefully vertically
There's no requirement that it have 2 tiny woofers. One slightly larger woofer will do as well. So, three 2way speakers with 5" woofers, all vertical, might be a solution.

BTW, the use of 2 woofers for center speakers, aside from providing more woofer drive, is a bit of a fraud. It implies a wide dispersion from its appearance while actually offering less uniform dispersion than with a single woofer. (Qualifier: it does depend on the crossover frequency and the inter-speaker distances.)

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post #14 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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ok, it looks like my options are:

a) get 3rd speaker that matches l/r speaker and mount horizontally: all 3 match but center is horizontally oriented; i'll try it with bookshelfs tonite to see if i can tell the difference

b) sonance and russound make 9" square speakers; can use a 9" square from them as the center speaker and then the l/rs that i already have: won't have orientation issue but the center and the 2 sides (ultralinear) won't be matched or even from the same company

c) get 3rd that matches other 2 and mount it vertically: i don't think there is space for this, but this would be ideal due to matching speakers and correct orientation
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post #15 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson
And none will have uniform horizontal dispersion. That would be worse than one horizontal with the L/R vertical.
...
???

Three identical speakers will have identical horizontal directivity.

My point is that three identical speakers will almost always be better than two identical speakers with one non-identical speaker.

I agree fully that most Woofer-Tweeter-Woofer center channel speakers are compromised, bordering on fraud (or just laziness on the part of the designers or marketers). Few companies make a T-W-W center channel - M&K is one - designed to give appropriate directivity.

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post #16 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousfun
???
Three identical speakers will have identical horizontal directivity.
Yes. All will have the same poor and irregular horizontal radiation pattern.

Quote:
My point is that three identical speakers will almost always be better than two identical speakers with one non-identical speaker.
Not if you make them identical by making them perform less well.

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I agree fully that most Woofer-Tweeter-Woofer center channel speakers are compromised, bordering on fraud (or just laziness on the part of the designers or marketers). Few companies make a T-W-W center channel - M&K is one - designed to give appropriate directivity.
Wrong. Unless some sophisticated electronic phase control is incorporated or unless the crossover frequency wavelength is less than half the T-W spacing, the horizontal radiation pattern is compromised. Notice that virtually no well-designed main speaker has drivers placed lateral to each other; they are all stacked!

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post #17 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholasp27
ok, it looks like my options are:

a) get 3rd speaker that matches l/r speaker and mount horizontally: all 3 match but center is horizontally oriented; i'll try it with bookshelfs tonite to see if i can tell the difference

b) sonance and russound make 9" square speakers; can use a 9" square from them as the center speaker and then the l/rs that i already have: won't have orientation issue but the center and the 2 sides (ultralinear) won't be matched or even from the same company

c) get 3rd that matches other 2 and mount it vertically: i don't think there is space for this, but this would be ideal due to matching speakers and correct orientation
I have not heard these, so this is not a recommendation: http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetail...31758&id=31763

Physically, 3 of these should work. Has anyone heard them?
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post #18 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericgl
I have not heard these, so this is not a recommendation: http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetail...31758&id=31763

Physically, 3 of these should work. Has anyone heard them?
I haven't heard these particular speakers, but dual-concentric inwalls might be the ticket - if, like any speaker, they pass your audition.

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post #19 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 03:00 PM
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Nicholas,

When you line up drivers on a speaker, you get cancellation in the direction that the drivers are aligned and wide dispersion perpendicular to that.

So, if you place a typical speaker sideways, you'll get cancellation horizontally off axis and wide vertical dispersion. If you're sitting directly in front of the speaker, you'll hear it fine. But anyone sitting to either side of you on the couch will not hear it so well. Not good. The wide vertical dispersion means that you'll get reflections off the floor and ceiling, muddying up the sound. Not good. So it's a lose-lose situation.

Placing the same speaker upright will give you cancellations vertically and wide dispersion horizontially. That means that everyone spread out on the couch will hear the dialogue almost as well as the person sitting in the sweet spot. This is good. The narrow vertical dispersion means that you'll get less reflections off the floor and ceiling, making the overall sound clearer. This is also good. A win-win situation.

How you mount your centre speaker is up to you and, unfortunately, based on constraints you have to take into account. However, based on the above, I hope you can understand why Eric, Kal and others are urging you to place it vertically (if you can).

Good Luck,
Sanjay

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post #20 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 03:20 PM
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Eric,
Quote:
Physically, 3 of these should work. Has anyone heard them?
Yes. I use seven Kef UniQ bookshelf speakers in my system. When shopping for them, I got several opportunities to hear Kef's CI (custom install) line. There were two things that really suprised me about these speakers: 1- imaging was terrific (most in-walls barely image, let alone well), and 2- there was very little tonal change off-axis (handy when you can't aim the speakers).

Sanjay

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post #21 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani
Eric, Yes. I use seven Kef UniQ bookshelf speakers in my system. When shopping for them, I got several opportunities to hear Kef's CI (custom install) line. There were two things that really suprised me about these speakers: 1- imaging was terrific (most in-walls barely image, let alone well), and 2- there was very little tonal change off-axis (handy when you can't aim the speakers).

Sanjay
Certainly seems worthy of consideration/audition.
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post #22 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 03:46 PM
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Doesn't Nicholas have L/R in-walls already?

Sanjay

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post #23 of 25 Old 03-23-2006, 04:18 PM
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If so, I missed it. Sorry Nicholas.
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post #24 of 25 Old 03-24-2006, 05:39 AM - Thread Starter
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i have l/r in-walls, but haven't installed them yet
i ordered a center and l/r in-walls from a website that said the center was 9.75" long...turns out that was a typo and it's 14.75" so i'm examining my options

it seems like ordering another pair of the l/r and using one of those vertically for the center is my best option; i'm not sure how it'll look tho to have a vertically mounted one under the plasma instead of horizontal, but i don't want to have any sound issues where people on the sides of the couch don't hear the dialogue properly

and since i can't test out these speakers before installing them, i don't get a chance to redo if it sounds poor horizontally

the square speaker is another idea, but my fiance thinks they are too big; i think she'd like vertical more so i'll prolly do that; i did measure and i do have the space to mount it vertically; i'll just google for pics of a setup with vertical center channel under plasma to get an idea of the look for her
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post #25 of 25 Old 03-24-2006, 11:04 AM
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