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post #91 of 10294 Old 05-29-2006, 10:24 PM
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have a klipsch RSW-10. Had a velodyne that I loved, and never wanted to part with, but I heard my rs8's playing with the RSW-10 in a good guys and had to buy it. The RSW picks up at the perfect place, right when the rs8's taper off in the lower frequencies.

The klipsch if very fast and accurate and can get very low. It has a distinct smoothness, but especially likes to emphasize lower bass notes and bass drum.

I went to compare other brands to make sure I wasnt losing my mind, and I was reassured: PSB and Rel were always too "thin" for me (in favor of more speed and accuracy)

Velodyne always tended to go too low but kept speed, which is awesome, but they tend towards HT bombs and such. Little to low for some music IMO. Even their mini super model.

All the subs I mentioned are part of a small list of subs that should be considered.
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post #92 of 10294 Old 05-30-2006, 08:24 AM
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Question for you Silver and Gold owners out there. Do you remove the small metal grill covering the tweeters. If so, big difference, small difference or no difference? If so, what sounds different?
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post #93 of 10294 Old 05-30-2006, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Redskin View Post


Question. Both the GR10 and the GRLCR are rated with a 40hz bottom end. I like the sound of a 60hz crossover better than the 80hz crossover in my receiver. Is 60hz too low for these speakers?

*Im not sure if your post was asking about the low or high freq. cut off*

the gr10 is a bookshelf speaker and has a single 6.5" midbass driver. Playing with parametric eq's, I hear my rs8's die pretty quickly below 110Hz... and from what I can remember, I sold the gr10s in favor of the rs8s because I really wanted a fuller sound. That being said, in addition to being *called* a mid-bass driver, I am postive that the GR10's dont provide much useful information at 60Hz or even 80Hz. IMO opinion, you dont want to cut ANY frequencies off the MA's, i.e. no crossover for the "fronts" and have the sub crossed-over at about 100Hz.
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post #94 of 10294 Old 05-30-2006, 03:01 PM
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I fell in love with the RS1's in Cherry. Although comparitively smaller than their big brother the RS6's, they can still hold their own with some floorstanders out there. If I were Mr. money bags, and had the room, I probably would have gone with the RS6's but the RS1's acquit themselves nicely. They're fast, accurate, airy, and detailed with more than adequate bass for such a small enclosure. Now for the integrated amp. Any suggestions?

Steve
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post #95 of 10294 Old 05-30-2006, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redskin View Post

Question for you Silver and Gold owners out there. Do you remove the small metal grill covering the tweeters. If so, big difference, small difference or no difference? If so, what sounds different?

No difference. Not worth the risk of damaging the tweeter.
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post #96 of 10294 Old 05-30-2006, 03:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpgonzalez View Post

*Im not sure if your post was asking about the low or high freq. cut off*

the gr10 is a bookshelf speaker and has a single 6.5" midbass driver. Playing with parametric eq's, I hear my rs8's die pretty quickly below 110Hz... and from what I can remember, I sold the gr10s in favor of the rs8s because I really wanted a fuller sound. That being said, in addition to being *called* a mid-bass driver, I am postive that the GR10's dont provide much useful information at 60Hz or even 80Hz. IMO opinion, you dont want to cut ANY frequencies off the MA's, i.e. no crossover for the "fronts" and have the sub crossed-over at about 100Hz.

The GR series has tremendous bass energy as do the RS series. Some even claim that the RS8 are too powerful in the lower octaves. I would imagine if you are not achieving dynamic bass that you arent giving them adequate juice. What amp do you have running them with?
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post #97 of 10294 Old 05-30-2006, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpgonzalez View Post

*Im not sure if your post was asking about the low or high freq. cut off*

the gr10 is a bookshelf speaker and has a single 6.5" midbass driver. Playing with parametric eq's, I hear my rs8's die pretty quickly below 110Hz... and from what I can remember, I sold the gr10s in favor of the rs8s because I really wanted a fuller sound. That being said, in addition to being *called* a mid-bass driver, I am postive that the GR10's dont provide much useful information at 60Hz or even 80Hz. IMO opinion, you dont want to cut ANY frequencies off the MA's, i.e. no crossover for the "fronts" and have the sub crossed-over at about 100Hz.

I was referring to the subwoofer crossover. I appreciate the advice. 100Hz sounds really high though. The most conservative recommendations I have heard are a full octave higher than the speakers low end, which would put 80Hz as a pretty conservative crossover. I have also heard some people say that 1/2 octave is enough, which would put the crossover at 60hz. I am no expert by any means, but 60hz sounds best to me, but I want to make sure I am not setting it too low, as to put undue strain on the drivers at higher volumes.
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post #98 of 10294 Old 05-30-2006, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redskin View Post

I was referring to the subwoofer crossover. I appreciate the advice. 100Hz sounds really high though. The most conservative recommendations I have heard are a full octave higher than the speakers low end, which would put 80Hz as a pretty conservative crossover. I have also heard some people say that 1/2 octave is enough, which would put the crossover at 60hz. I am no expert by any means, but 60hz sounds best to me, but I want to make sure I am not setting it too low, as to put undue strain on the drivers at higher volumes.

Im not sure Im reading you right.

If you crossover the sub at 60Hz, then you are cutting out all frequencies higher than 60Hz. this would put less strain on a subwoofer and more strain in the speakers IF you are cranking the bass up.

Im assuming that you mean the GR10's are crossed over at 60Hz, making them possibly do too much at 60Hz and above.



As you can see, frequencies response curves for the GR10 show that at 60Hz, the response is dropping off a cliff. If you crossover the MA's at 80Hz, you hasten the decay of frequency response so as to remove more body from the music from the speakers, effectively relying on the sub to do more.

Either way, 60Hz on either the sub OR the speakers looks like it would yield a flatter frequeny response curve. I like full bass quitar, and to get it... my setup gets no crossover on the speakers and 100Hz on the sub.

BUT ITS ALL PERSONAL PREFERENCE.
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post #99 of 10294 Old 05-30-2006, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by AudioArchitect View Post

The GR series has tremendous bass energy as do the RS series. Some even claim that the RS8 are too powerful in the lower octaves. I would imagine if you are not achieving dynamic bass that you arent giving them adequate juice. What amp do you have running them with?

Again... you mention amplifier and "adequate juice". I do not play my music loud. Having the ability to produce more current and voltage does not result in better control of a speaker at low volumes. plenty of people have driven large thiel speakers with 35wpc tube amps and achieved superb sound. If my speakers were underpowered, then I would notice clipping. and this is very audible. Since I cant even listen to my stereo loud enough to get clipping (my ears would blow up) then I know that underpower is not the problem.

midbass driver cannot reproduce very low frequencies. The quality of an amplifier will affect the clarity of dynamic bass, but to accentuate these lower notes whatever they sound like would need to be done via equalization... Since we dont like eq, then we rely on the inherent characteristics of the speaker. In the case of MA... for me..... they do not emphasize lower frequencies enough. So I crank a sub crossover to get a better bass mix.
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post #100 of 10294 Old 05-30-2006, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by AudioArchitect View Post

No difference. Not worth the risk of damaging the tweeter.

That is what I noticed. I even put a small hole in one of my tweeters removing one. I called up MA and had the tweeter replaced under warranty. I didn't bother removing the grill off of the new one, I didn't want to take the chance of damaging it again.
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post #101 of 10294 Old 05-30-2006, 10:31 PM - Thread Starter
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You have obviously never heard Thiels with adequate power. They will not sound as Thiel intended with a 35 wpc tube amp. They are designed for high power and high current amps. Most of their speakers are low sensitivity, low impedance which require a good amp.

The GS, RS, or GR series towers are perfectly capable of performing full-range, but they need adequate current for the extra cone excursion needed for bass reproduction. Dont expect for full-range performance using a Denon receiver. A better amplified speaker performs better at all volume levels not just high volume.

As for clipping, you would be very surprised how many people cannot hear clipping occur in a speaker so you wouldnt necessarily be able to hear it right off the bat.

The midbass driver in a Dynaudio Contour uses a 3" voice coil, larger than many subwoofer voice coils. I can get flat response to 25-28 hz with just a pair of Contour S3.4's and no sub. My point here is that it is all in the implementation of drivers and crossovers in the speaker. A sub is seen as a quick fix many times, but obviously can introduce problems of its own.
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post #102 of 10294 Old 05-30-2006, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioArchitect View Post

You have obviously never heard Thiels with adequate power. They will not sound as Thiel intended with a 35 wpc tube amp. They are designed for high power and high current amps. Most of their speakers are low sensitivity, low impedance which require a good amp.

The GS, RS, or GR series towers are perfectly capable of performing full-range, but they need adequate current for the extra cone excursion needed for bass reproduction. Dont expect for full-range performance using a Denon receiver. A better amplified speaker performs better at all volume levels not just high volume.

As for clipping, you would be very surprised how many people cannot hear clipping occur in a speaker so you wouldnt necessarily be able to hear it right off the bat.

The midbass driver in a Dynaudio Contour uses a 3" voice coil, larger than many subwoofer voice coils. I can get flat response to 25-28 hz with just a pair of Contour S3.4's and no sub. My point here is that it is all in the implementation of drivers and crossovers in the speaker. A sub is seen as a quick fix many times, but obviously can introduce problems of its own.


Well said. I was about to mention that clipping can occur before audible distortion is heard but you beat me to the punch.
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post #103 of 10294 Old 05-30-2006, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by AudioArchitect View Post


The GS, RS, or GR series towers are perfectly capable of performing full-range, but they need adequate current for the extra cone excursion needed for bass reproduction. Dont expect for full-range performance using a Denon receiver.

While the statement may be true for GR floorstanders and the RS8, I feel that there is plenty of bass with Denon 1604 driving RS6 - so powerful even when compared to JBL with 10" woofer. Interestingly, I found that an old HK 20 appeared to overdrive the bass drivers of the RS6. The HK has more current drive capability than the Denon 1604 (which is spec'ed to have high current output too). There was way too much bass with the HK driving the RS6's. So much so that female voice sounded too deep.
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post #104 of 10294 Old 05-31-2006, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioArchitect View Post

You have obviously never heard Thiels with adequate power. They will not sound as Thiel intended with a 35 wpc tube amp.

I have heard the same 2.4's with two amps (tube vs arcam w/toroidal), and of course the salesman was telling me I needed more power when it was clear to me that I did not. Thats what audio salesman do. So dont make statements like "obviously". All youll get in return are statements like "you're obviously invested in upselling audio electronics." Correct me if im wrong


besides... my original comment never implied that my amplifier couldnt run the speakers. My original post complained that without eq and sub., the rs8's lack low end girth... probably due to my large living room.
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post #105 of 10294 Old 05-31-2006, 06:59 PM
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What amps/receivers is everyone using to power their Bronze, Silver or Gold MA speakers?

I am using an Integra 6.5 receiver powering my RS6 fronts.
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post #106 of 10294 Old 05-31-2006, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin12586 View Post

What amps/receivers is everyone using to power their Bronze, Silver or Gold MA speakers?

I am using an Integra 6.5 receiver powering my RS6 fronts.

I'm using a Sherwood P-965 pre amp paired with aa Rotel RMB 1095(200x5) amp with my Silver S10.

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post #107 of 10294 Old 05-31-2006, 08:28 PM
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I'm running a Denon 3802 with my MA S6s. With regards to the bass situation, I ran my setup without my sub for a couple of weeks to get a feel for the MAs' bass response, and I think there's more than enough bass for music, and adequate even for HT, if your room is small and you don't crank it too much. This despite terrible room acoustics (hardwood floor, bare walls etc.). I've heard these and other MA speakers in dealer showrooms with great acoustics and they produce a tremendous amount of low end.

Do the new versions still have the removal port hole plug in the back? I found I kept changing the configurations from 0, 1, or 2 plugs in, depending on what I was listening to.

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post #108 of 10294 Old 05-31-2006, 08:38 PM
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I have a Denon 3803 currently powering 2 MA S10's and an SLCR and a B&W CCM 65's for the rear surround and 2 B&W outdoor speakers on the back deck. I also have a Sunfire True Signature Sub corner loaded in the room that is 55 ft long and 20 ft wide and 8 ft ceilings.
The Denon 3803 specs
110 watts x 7 into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.05% THD
Dolby Digital EX, DTS-ES, DTS 96/24, and Pro Logic II decoding
DTS Neo - 6 and Widescreen 7.1 modes
Component video switching - 2 in, 1 out (100MHz bandwidth)
Dual-room/dual-source A/V output (stereo preamp, stereo speaker-level, and composite video output for 2nd room)

I am currently thinking that in this size room and for the fact that I am using all 7 channels of the Denon that I am somewhat under powered for the S10's and Center and that I have probably not heard all that the Silver has to offer and I am considering an amp upgrade. I have been somewhat interested in maybe going with a Pro Amp but possibly an audiophile amp would be good as well.
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post #109 of 10294 Old 05-31-2006, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpgonzalez View Post

I have heard the same 2.4's with two amps (tube vs arcam w/toroidal), and of course the salesman was telling me I needed more power when it was clear to me that I did not. Thats what audio salesman do. So dont make statements like "obviously". All youll get in return are statements like "you're obviously invested in upselling audio electronics." Correct me if im wrong

Absolutely wrong! The most overpriced, underperforming amplifiers on earth are the infamous single-ended 10 watt tube amps (SET's). If I wanted to upsell then I would be talking about tube-rolling and how you need cables with battery packs on them. When I sell a pair of speakers my clients expect to being able to use them for 20 years without problems. Its pretty much a given that you will blow a tweeter using a low-current receiver long-term within a home theater environment. The demands are simply to great. By using a power amp, you are providing current for the speaker to function properly. Thats it.

Short term clipping is almost impossible to detect and yet is fully capable of damaging a tweeter. Long bouts of clipping by overdriving the amplifier and cutting off the top and bottom of the waveform reproduces distortion, which can kill both woofers and tweeters.

You might not have heard a difference in your particular demo, but when you are powering Thiel speakers in a home theater environment they NEED large amplification (200w per channel) to perform to their potential. That doesnt mean expensive. You can purchase huge Adcom amps for relatively cheap, Rotel, NAD, etc. cheaper than many mass-market "flagship" receivers.
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post #110 of 10294 Old 06-01-2006, 08:26 AM
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I got my GS60's in yesterday (along with center and surrounds). I'm so pleased with these speakers. The build quality and finish is outstanding (got them in walnut). I hated the plinth on my other speakers. Monitor's got it nailed, very stable and good looking plinth.
And they sound even better than they look. I was curious if I'd find the tweeter to be bright considering I've gotten used to a soft dome tweeter, but not at all. They aren't harsh or bright but seem to really extend above and beyond what I've become used to. They also have no problem playing music as full range speakers. 2 thumbs up from me... but I'm biased and a dealer so take my comments with a grain of salt
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post #111 of 10294 Old 06-01-2006, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by AudioArchitect View Post

Absolutely wrong! The most overpriced, underperforming amplifiers on earth are the infamous single-ended 10 watt tube amps (SET's). If I wanted to upsell then I would be talking about tube-rolling and how you need cables with battery packs on them.

I know, I know. I gave you the remember. (i was teasing you)

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Originally Posted by AudioArchitect View Post

Short term clipping is almost impossible to detect and yet is fully capable of damaging a tweeter. Long bouts of clipping by overdriving the amplifier and cutting off the top and bottom of the waveform reproduces distortion, which can kill both woofers and tweeters.

like Ive have been trying to say.... I dont listen to loud content. Movies or music. I have neighbors.

Amplitude compression, what results after severe clipping is introduced (1), is the true culprit. Low level clipping can be sustained, its high level clipping that will kill a tweeter of speaker damage. And ofcourse, "high level" are the keys words here. And of course at this point we arent necessarily faulting clipping, its heat. And the heat will kill the tweeter. If an amp cannot fully extend a cone because of low power, then we cannot expect it to destroy a cone. Even though clipping is audibly horrific when detected, the speaker may still see it as music. Just cone movement... right?

So while my 125wpc may not be enough to rock the house, it *should* be sufficient to run the full dynamics of my speakers at low levels. And if I want to blow the speaker, I will do so with careless knob turning, not amp selection.

but well have to agree to disagree at this point. I have read days upon days of this stuff, and we can turn this thread into days upon days of more stuff. the concensus has not been reached (2). So Ill stop and concede... and buy a new amp from you...

(1) rane article
(2) a longer argument like ours!
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post #112 of 10294 Old 06-01-2006, 08:34 AM
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ohhh, and... marantz sr7500
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post #113 of 10294 Old 06-01-2006, 09:40 AM
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more *fun* reading on "too much power is the only culprit to speaker death"

http://www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm
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post #114 of 10294 Old 06-01-2006, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhaycraft View Post

I have a Denon 3803 currently powering 2 MA S10's and an SLCR and a B&W CCM 65's for the rear surround and 2 B&W outdoor speakers on the back deck. I also have a Sunfire True Signature Sub corner loaded in the room that is 55 ft long and 20 ft wide and 8 ft ceilings.
The Denon 3803 specs
110 watts x 7 into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.05% THD
Dolby Digital EX, DTS-ES, DTS 96/24, and Pro Logic II decoding
DTS Neo - 6 and Widescreen 7.1 modes
Component video switching - 2 in, 1 out (100MHz bandwidth)
Dual-room/dual-source A/V output (stereo preamp, stereo speaker-level, and composite video output for 2nd room)

I am currently thinking that in this size room and for the fact that I am using all 7 channels of the Denon that I am somewhat under powered for the S10's and Center and that I have probably not heard all that the Silver has to offer and I am considering an amp upgrade. I have been somewhat interested in maybe going with a Pro Amp but possibly an audiophile amp would be good as well.

I've run my Silver S10 off a Denon 3300 with an advertised 105x5 wpc that really only made 83x5 wpc and upgrading to the Rotel RMB-1095 that makes an advetised 200x5wpc that in testing nade well over 200x5wpc and the S10 speakers really came alive with the extra wattage. I would bet that your 3803 makes closer to 85x7 wpc than the advertised 110x7wpc if it's anything like the 3801 http://audio.erobinson.net/. The S10 speakers do like power just like the S8 or RS8 so an amp couldn't hurt.

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post #115 of 10294 Old 06-01-2006, 10:11 AM
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I run my 5.1 setup with S8, SLCR and S1's with a 56txi. The sub has its own power supply as usual..

The receiver is rated at 100wpc I think (I don't remember) but has nicely sized caps for transients.

I have a 10x14ft room I use them in, so I doubt I do not have enough power. I rarely hit the knob up to -24db. When I do it is only during 2channel listening.
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post #116 of 10294 Old 06-01-2006, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

I've run my Silver S10 off a Denon 3300 with an advertised 105x5 wpc that really only made 83x5 wpc and upgrading to the Rotel RMB-1095 that makes an advetised 200x5wpc that in testing nade well over 200x5wpc and the S10 speakers really came alive with the extra wattage. I would bet that your 3803 makes closer to 85x7 wpc than the advertised 110x7wpc if it's anything like the 3801 http://audio.erobinson.net/. The S10 speakers do like power just like the S8 or RS8 so an amp couldn't hurt.

That's a very informative web page and interesting reading to say the least. I figure I am doing alot less than the advertised with the Denon 3803 as I am driving all 7 channels. I am considering getting a Pro Amp like the QSC PLX 2402,3002,3402 to see what the mains could really do. I have also considered the Outlaw 7700. I would take any other thoughts as well because I really want to maximize what the S10's can do and I have a rather large space to fill with sound.
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post #117 of 10294 Old 06-01-2006, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpgonzalez View Post

ohhh, and... marantz sr7500

What were you saying about the Marantz SR7500? I am just curious as I am currently powering my GS10s with one. The setup sounds great, but I was planning on upgrading to a Sunfire Cinema Grand 200~5 as I keep hearing that these speakers are power hungry.
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post #118 of 10294 Old 06-01-2006, 10:39 AM
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sorry. I meant that I use the marantz sr7500 on my s8's.

legairre: you attribute better sound quality to more power and not the fact that you moved from HT electronics to something worth calling "audiophile quality?"
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post #119 of 10294 Old 06-01-2006, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by bhaycraft View Post

That's a very informative web page and interesting reading to say the least. I figure I am doing alot less than the advertised with the Denon 3803 as I am driving all 7 channels. I am considering getting a Pro Amp like the QSC PLX 2402,3002,3402 to see what the mains could really do. I have also considered the Outlaw 7700. I would take any other thoughts as well because I really want to maximize what the S10's can do and I have a rather large space to fill with sound.


I had a 5 channel setup with the MA S8's, SLCR and S6's being driven by the Denon 3805. I upgraded to the MA GR's and added a Sunfire Amp (200W X 5). I also have a large space (7K+ CF) and feel the amp added headroom for high SPL listening (HT/2 & 5 ch music). I have sold that amp and upgraded to the Sunfire 400W X 5 so I am obviously in the more power is better camp. The 3805 is being used as a pre only but it could easily drive a second zone.

I like the concept of separates and consider the amp like the speakers. Buy as much as you need/can afford and you will get more longevity out of them. The source pieces will be more vulnerable to technological obsolescence than the amp and speakers.


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post #120 of 10294 Old 06-01-2006, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by rpgonzalez View Post

sorry. I meant that I use the marantz sr7500 on my s8's.

legairre: you attribute better sound quality to more power and not the fact that you moved from HT electronics to something worth calling "audiophile quality?"

It's really a combination of both. Yes I do attribute better sound at "high" volumes to more power and better electronics, while I attribute better sound at lower volumes to better electronics. At higher volumes the Denon would compress and just couldn't handle the 6ohm load of the S10 especially when drinving 5 channels(back then all 5 of my channels were 6ohm, now I have 7 channels to drive). While I consider the Rotel amp an incredible value that would require spending twice as much to get maybe 15% better sound I'm not sure I would use the term audiophile to describe it. For that I'd have to buy maybe something along the lines of Meridian. But what do I know I believe only musicians and people trained in music should be called audiophiles.

"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"

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