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post #39031 of 39052 Unread Today, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by retro124 View Post
I never had a chance to listen to them but from spec. they don't go low as SVS subs. So I'm sure SVS is a much better choice. Also customer service with SVS is outstanding and 5 years warranty. How much are SVS subs for you let say PB-2000 or PB12-Plus? I had before this Klipsch sub:

http://www.klipsch.com/sub-12-subwoofer/details

compare to SVS it is like day and night. Really it is completely different bass, it was probably the biggest WOW I had since I start to change all.
I found two companies selling SVS Subs, one company I have to pay the money now and then they will order and it will take like 3 months for it to arrive. LOL

The second company just had a new shipment come this week, they didnt know what price they could sell them for before they pass the customs/duty.....

But the first company priced them at:

SVS PB2000 820 USD.
PB12 plus 1500 USD.
PB13 Ultra 2050 USD.

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post #39032 of 39052 Unread Today, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
Wow... Totally disagree. The RS-52II is more than suited for discrete surround. That's not to say that a direct firing RB-**II wouldn't work well too. But to definitively suggest that an RS-52II isn't 'suited' for discrete surround is absurd.
The Klipsch WDST (RS-series) speakers were designed in the prologic era but work well for discrete channels in the digital age. I would use direct firing speakers if one sits parallel to the surrounds and has rear speakers to matrix those rear ( i.e., surround) channels to 4 speakers... If there are several rows of seats or doesn't sit parallel (or moves around the room while listening to material) the RS series would be preferable as side surrounds. Insofar as Back speakers YMMV and my guess in most instances the direct firing would be better but the RS series would still work.
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post #39033 of 39052 Unread Today, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post
The Klipsch WDST (RS-series) speakers were designed in the prologic era but work well for discrete channels in the digital age. I would use direct firing speakers if one sits parallel to the surrounds and has rear speakers to matrix those rear ( i.e., surround) channels to 4 speakers... If there are several rows of seats or doesn't sit parallel (or moves around the room while listening to material) the RS series would be preferable as side surrounds. Insofar as Back speakers YMMV and my guess in most instances the direct firing would be better but the RS series would still work.
No question, I'm all about individual taste and preferences, and I like your example. I just take pause with the definitive nature of 'not being suited.'


In any case, I still find RS series to be more open and fuller sounding, and a better choice. However, in some cases like you gave, direct firing can be very good too.


I would not directly attribute bipole/dipole to prologic. It's a design that's been around for a good while and it's stood the test of time for discrete surround imaging.
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post #39034 of 39052 Unread Today, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by TheDrkLord View Post
You guys have some nice systems! Six months ago I was going to get a sound bar with a sub, after hearing my cousins system I wanted towers. I know a lot of you guys on here have the higher end Klipsch speakers. I originally wanted the F-30's but ended up getting the better R-28F's at a steal ($500 for the pair). I'm very happy with them, I can afford the RF-82II's but I'm new to this and most of my funds are going elsewhere. I will be running a 3.1 set up for a while. I was going back and forth for a while about the center (RC-52II/RC-62II), but I think I'm going with the 52's and will be running everything on a Denon X4000 which I will be picking up this weekend. As far as the subs I'm thinking either SVS or JL Audio's. I might get the 82's later down the road, but it won't be anytime soon. Based on what I have are there any tweaks or recommendations you guys have for me???
Go for the 62 center. For me, it was a tremendous improvement and I never regretted upgrading it. Well worth it. The 52 is too small.

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post #39035 of 39052 Unread Today, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by TheDrkLord View Post
You guys have some nice systems! Six months ago I was going to get a sound bar with a sub, after hearing my cousins system I wanted towers. I know a lot of you guys on here have the higher end Klipsch speakers. I originally wanted the F-30's but ended up getting the better R-28F's at a steal ($500 for the pair). I'm very happy with them, I can afford the RF-82II's but I'm new to this and most of my funds are going elsewhere. I will be running a 3.1 set up for a while. I was going back and forth for a while about the center (RC-52II/RC-62II), but I think I'm going with the 52's and will be running everything on a Denon X4000 which I will be picking up this weekend. As far as the subs I'm thinking either SVS or JL Audio's. I might get the 82's later down the road, but it won't be anytime soon. Based on what I have are there any tweaks or recommendations you guys have for me???

Weren't you here a week or two ago asking the same question about the center channel? I doubt anyone's opinion has changed. I'd suggest the R-25C because of voice matching, but to each his own. But, between the two mentioned, I'd just go with two towers and phantom center, so neither.


Which specific SVS and JL Audio models were you demoing?
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post #39036 of 39052 Unread Today, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
No question, I'm all about individual taste and preferences, and I like your example. I just take pause with the definitive nature of 'not being suited.'


In any case, I still find RS series to be more open and fuller sounding, and a better choice. However, in some cases like you gave, direct firing can be very good too.


I would not directly attribute bipole/dipole to prologic. It's a design that's been around for a good while and it's stood the test of time for discrete surround imaging.
I agree. I previously used some direct firing for my rears and my personal opinion is that they were more distracting than anything (which could absolutely be attributed to poor placement/room setup/etc on my part). I am using some RS-42IIs for my rears and find they make me feel more immersed in the movie I am watching.

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post #39037 of 39052 Unread Today, 09:13 AM
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I use to have bookshelves for surrounds and I liked that they were directional. I want to know where the sound is coming from. Isn't that the whole point is to hear things directional, like you would in real life.

Now I use big ars centers for surround and the dual 8" woofers and center horn really open up the sound a bit more than a bookshelf, but is still directional like I want.

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Originally Posted by Soupy1970 View Post
I use to have bookshelves for surrounds and I liked that they were directional. I want to know where the sound is coming from. Isn't that the whole point is to hear things directional, like you would in real life.

Now I use big ars centers for surround and the dual 8" woofers and center horn really open up the sound a bit more than a bookshelf, but is still directional like I want.
You should always have your set up sound the way you want it. No question about that. Some folks like ceiling speakers for mains and center, and enjoy the sound coming from above like God. It's all about your individual tastes and goals for your set up.


That said, a lot of research has been done on this through blind and double blind listening tests and the conclusion is that surround sound is largely more favored by listening audiences if it's immersive vs directional. The results indicate that movie viewers are less distracted, and more entertained by the movie. They want the sound to come from the sides, as if it's happening in mid air, not coming from a speaker. That said, I still know that sound from the sides is coming from my RS-42 II, but with proper placement and Audyssey, it disappears into the room.


Also, you are right that your surround speakers are not as directional or 'beamy' as a typical bookshelf.
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post #39039 of 39052 Unread Today, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Soupy1970 View Post
I use to have bookshelves for surrounds and I liked that they were directional. I want to know where the sound is coming from. Isn't that the whole point is to hear things directional, like you would in real life.

Now I use big ars centers for surround and the dual 8" woofers and center horn really open up the sound a bit more than a bookshelf, but is still directional like I want.
That's the important part that we usually forget. It's your system, your room and your preference as what sounds good to you. All the peanut gallery can do is point people into a direction that will work for the majority of people. We try to point out things that have been tried and don't really work, like bi-wiring.
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post #39040 of 39052 Unread Today, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post


That said, a lot of research has been done on this through blind and double blind listening tests and the conclusion is that surround sound is largely more favored by listening audiences if it's immersive vs directional. The results indicate that movie viewers are less distracted, and more entertained by the movie. They want the sound to come from the sides, as if it's happening in mid air, not coming from a speaker. That said, I still know that sound from the sides is coming from my RS-42 II, but with proper placement and Audyssey, it disappears into the room...
Again, although I agree when it pertains to 5.1 setups, converting this material to "7.1" using 4 speakers (2 to the side and 2 in the rear) and being matrixed by the AVR can accomplish this and widens the sound field and is seamless as well. I would rather have sound coming towards me from 4 directions instead of away from me in two.

{EDIT: We have a limited LP that is parallel to the side surrounds and as mentioned earlier, if we had seats outside of the line of the SS would think the WDST/RS-line of speakers would/could be more preferable.}

I have mentioned this before but I primarily listen to multichannel music and it is AMAZING that it actually seems like there is a separate rear channel back there by how it separates the material.

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post #39041 of 39052 Unread Today, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Mongo171 View Post
That's the important part that we usually forget. It's your system, your room and your preference as what sounds good to you. All the peanut gallery can do is point people into a direction that will work for the majority of people. We try to point out things that have been tried and don't really work, like bi-wiring.
I'm not sure how this logically is congruent with the discussion. I've been doing bi-wiring for about 20 years now, with a variety of speaker makes, and it's always presented a noticeable (if usually only slight) improvement. I use plain ole copper speaker wire, and it costs an extra 10 bucks (maybe) to do it one time. I've used the wires over and over since then. That's a fraction of a penny a day for the time I've been doing it. Changing to different surround speakers is decidedly more costly. It's also not worth buying new speakers if they can't be bi-wired, the difference is nothing ground breaking.


Oh yeah, we disagree on 'everything.' I forgot.

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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post
Again, although I agree when it pertains to 5.1 setups, converting this material to "7.1" using 4 speakers (2 to the side and 2 in the rear) and being matrixed by the AVR can accomplish this and widens the sound field and is seamless as well. I would rather have sound coming towards me from 4 directions instead of away from me in two.

I have mentioned this before but I primarily listen to multichannel music and it is AMAZING that it actually seems like there is a separate rear channel back there by how it separates the material.
If material is only in 5.1, that's how I view it. I do not like matrixed audio personally.
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post #39043 of 39052 Unread Today, 10:56 AM
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If material is only in 5.1, that's how I view it. I do not like matrixed audio personally.
Well, movie theaters use direct firing speakers on the side and in the rear and in the home theater environment that is why the WDST speakers were developed--IOW, your RS speakers are "matrixing" the surround sound to try and accomplish the goal of making it seem like you have more speakers like they do in theaters.

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[QUOTE=Zen Traveler;27842449]Well, movie theaters use direct firing speakers on the side and in the rear and in the home theater environment that is why the WDST speakers were developed--IOW, your RS speakers are "matrixing" the surround sound to try and accomplish the goal of making it seem like you have more speakers like they do in theaters.[/QUOTE]


Not the same as when the receiver does the same. Sorry, not buying it. To me, more often than not, AVR matrixed sound sounds odd, and not properly laid out. It does sometimes sound fine, but that's the exception in my experience.


In any case, I think I've lost the overall point you're getting at.
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IMHO, yes mine CandT, RS speakers make sure that the majority, if not all, of the seating positions in a listening area can hear the rear speaker information.

For example, my rear seating is up against the back wall and I have a sofa going down the left side. RB's won't work in my situation because of the narrow dispersion of sound. RS speaker are Wide Dispersion and will hit of of my listening area.

Your turn to BOLD me and point out where I am wrong.

With dual subs, stack'em in the corner and put on a jockstrap. Don't want EVERYTHING in the room jingling!
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post #39046 of 39052 Unread Today, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
...Not the same as when the receiver does the same. Sorry, not buying it. To me, more often than not, AVR matrixed sound sounds odd, and not properly laid out. It does sometimes sound fine, but that's the exception in my experience.


In any case, I think I've lost the overall point you're getting at.
I was giving a second opinion to what you are stating above and in your other post. I am not saying that WDST aren't good for accomplishing the goals I've (and you) tried to articulate but don't think they are preferable to every situation, especially the ones I've mentioned--If you have a link to those blind listening tests I would like to see them.
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Your turn to BOLD me and point out where I am wrong.
For the record, I wasn't wrong.
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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post
For the record, I wasn't wrong.
I know you weren't wrong. He just likes to BOLD things that people say as he is only responding to those words in bold.

With dual subs, stack'em in the corner and put on a jockstrap. Don't want EVERYTHING in the room jingling!
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IMHO, yes mine CandT, RS speakers make sure that the majority, if not all, of the seating positions in a listening area can hear the rear speaker information.

For example, my rear seating is up against the back wall and I have a sofa going down the left side. RB's won't work in my situation because of the narrow dispersion of sound. RS speaker are Wide Dispersion and will hit of of my listening area.

Your turn to BOLD me and point out where I am wrong.
Ummm, ok, I agree that bipoles (RS series) speakers are preferable for surround applications in most applications. Zen and I were just discussing some instances where direct firing has some perks.


But I'm still with you, RS (bipoles) are more preferred, at least for my listening goals.


Also, I still like bi-wiring. So neener neener...
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[QUOTE=Mongo171;27844961] I know you weren't wrong. He just likes to BOLD things that people say as he is only responding to those words in bold. [/QUOTE]


Yes, I think this helps point to emphasize the point I'm making. I would think that this is helpful. I'm sorry if you find it so frustrating.

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post #39051 of 39052 Unread Today, 12:13 PM
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Not the same as when the receiver does the same. Sorry, not buying it. To me, more often than not, AVR matrixed sound sounds odd, and not properly laid out. It does sometimes sound fine, but that's the exception in my experience...

I am not saying that what you experience with your speakers and in your room isn't true but the reason Dolby PLIIx was developed was to recreate what you hear in theaters and does work for me and others: http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...logic-iix.html

Now of course there is Dolby Atmos and I am curious what it will bring to the table...So far if you aren't going to be using specifically designed speakers or in-ceiling then I'm guessing not a lot but their new processors do have something called "Dolby Surround 7.1," which is along the lines of PLX=IIx (or) z. http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...round-7-1.html

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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post
I am not saying that what you experience with your speakers and in your room isn't true but the reason Dolby PLIIx was developed was to recreate what you hear in theaters and does work for me and others: http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...logic-iix.html

Now of course there is Dolby Atmos and I am curious what it will bring to the table...So far if you aren't going to be using specifically designed speakers or in-ceiling then I'm guessing not a lot but their new processors do have something called "Dolby Surround 7.1," which is along the lines of PLX=IIx (or) z. http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...round-7-1.html
I just finished watching T4 with Dolby Atmos using 4 RS-52IIs for Top Fronts and Top Rears and my Denon x5200w (rest of setup in my Sig) and it brings a ton to the table. I posted this in the Atmos thread

”Well due to suddenly coming down with a case of Atmositis, I left my office and came home for some "relaxation" and all I can say is I am blown away. As per Keith's recommendation I put in my copy of T4 and went right to Chapter 20. I put my X5200W to -10db and then just patiently waited for the action to get moving. I have been concerned that my choice of overhead speakers was not going to work out and was already anticipating having to sell them and maybe go with some RB-51IIs (although I worry about their dispersion considering my ceiling heights)..... And then my sound stage came alive. I have experienced flashes of this with Jurassic Park but the sound field was so enveloping, it was all around me. My concerns have evaporated almost completely (I need more testing or "relaxation" to really put them to rest). And the bass..... My SVS was quaking with pure joy. I can honestly say that in all my years of watching movies at home I have never experienced anything quite like this. And I likely do not even have things set up as well as could be but Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 has no doubt corrected much of that."

Other speakers may offer a better experience to some ears but mine are happy as can be at the moment. Atmos is legit in my opinion.

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