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post #39601 of 39626 Old 10-18-2014, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post
I see that you've posted your dilemma on several threads and wonder if you switched out the RC-3 with one of the RB-5s to see if the situation follows the speaker instead of the center channel? Fwiw, I agree that with Audyssey engaged it shouldn't sound worse. Something else to check are your settings--Make sure Dynamic Volume is off and I would be curious at what parameters you tried. Fwiw, I prefer Dolby PII to Audyessey DSX but YMMV.

EDIT: If you've had this setup for 10 years I would think the RB-5s and RC-3 should blend well and if you are hearing sibilance in one, you would also hear them in the other given those speakers all use similar HF drivers and horns.

2nd EDIT: You asked if your hearing may be changing (in another thread) and something else to consider is your expectations with the new AVR--If anything it should sound the same not worse, imo.
Thanks for responding!

I did post, over time, in the Denon thread, the Audyssey thread, and the Klipsch thread, thinking it had to be one of those three elements and hoping I could figure out which one ...

I did try switching out one of my RB-5s for the RC-3 and heard--or thought I heard--some slight improvement, but the issue was still there.

Thinking it could be the source material I listened to the same blu-ray iso on my computer through headphones and the distortion was not there.

In defense of Audyssey, I suppose you could argue that it is just making the already-present distortion that much clearer, assuming it is already present in the signal chain ...

I'm thinking it is my speakers, plural, not singular. A while ago I was tweaking stuff and I carelessly plugged in a cable without turning my system off first ... the result was an ear-piercing blast of static through all of my speakers ...

So: A, maybe that blast of static damaged my speakers in some way,

or

B: I'm just not happy anymore with the sound of these particular speakers

or

C: It is an issue with Audyssey. In the Audyssey FAQ one of the questions is: "Why does my treble sound worse after I run Audyssey?" which makes me think this isn't an unknown issue.

By the way, here is a thread from someone who seems to be having a problem very much like mine ... Never got resolved, sadly.

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1998578
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post #39602 of 39626 Old 10-18-2014, 03:04 PM
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If you could get this....

For $2000... Would you do it? It's about 2-3 months old. I am going to use the setup in a 21x12 dedicated theater room. 8' ceiling. Mostly for movies and some sports. My only concern is that the Klipsch website says the 5 yr warranty is for the "original owner".

Front: Klipsch RB-81II Bookshelf Speaker
Center: Klipsch RC-62II
Rear: Klipsch RS-52II Surround Speaker
Subwoofer: Klipsch SW-310
Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR838
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post #39603 of 39626 Old 10-18-2014, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samfsu View Post
For $2000... Would you do it? It's about 2-3 months old. I am going to use the setup in a 21x12 dedicated theater room. 8' ceiling. Mostly for movies and some sports. My only concern is that the Klipsch website says the 5 yr warranty is for the "original owner".

Front: Klipsch RB-81II Bookshelf Speaker
Center: Klipsch RC-62II
Rear: Klipsch RS-52II Surround Speaker
Subwoofer: Klipsch SW-310
Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR838
Have you contacted a dealer like Acoustic Sound Design or Sound Distributors? They might be able to put together a comparable package and you won't have any warranty concerns.
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post #39604 of 39626 Old 10-18-2014, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Tangled Cable View Post
...I did try switching out one of my RB-5s for the RC-3 and heard--or thought I heard--some slight improvement, but the issue was still there.

Thinking it could be the source material I listened to the same blu-ray iso on my computer through headphones and the distortion was not there. ...

I'm thinking it is my speakers, plural, not singular. A while ago I was tweaking stuff and I carelessly plugged in a cable without turning my system off first ... the result was an ear-piercing blast of static through all of my speakers ...

So: A, maybe that blast of static damaged my speakers in some way,

or

B: I'm just not happy anymore with the sound of these particular speakers

or

C: It is an issue with Audyssey. In the Audyssey FAQ one of the questions is: "Why does my treble sound worse after I run Audyssey?" which makes me think this isn't an unknown issue.

By the way, here is a thread from someone who seems to be having a problem very much like mine ... Never got resolved, sadly.
Hard to say without hearing it myself....Your description of "Screechy" makes me think of sibilance--His description of "crackle" makes me think something else is wrong either in his speaker or AVR. Fwiw, any of the above could be true but if it is Audyssey, I would be curious what parameter you have it set to (Audyssey, Flat, DSX, etc.)

Last edited by Zen Traveler; 10-18-2014 at 03:52 PM. Reason: fixed quote bracket
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post #39605 of 39626 Old 10-18-2014, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mpirnat View Post
Have you contacted a dealer like Acoustic Sound Design or Sound Distributors? They might be able to put together a comparable package and you won't have any warranty concerns.
I did and they are $700 more
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post #39606 of 39626 Old 10-18-2014, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Tangled Cable View Post
Thanks for responding!

I did post, over time, in the Denon thread, the Audyssey thread, and the Klipsch thread, thinking it had to be one of those three elements and hoping I could figure out which one ...

I did try switching out one of my RB-5s for the RC-3 and heard--or thought I heard--some slight improvement, but the issue was still there.

Thinking it could be the source material I listened to the same blu-ray iso on my computer through headphones and the distortion was not there.

In defense of Audyssey, I suppose you could argue that it is just making the already-present distortion that much clearer, assuming it is already present in the signal chain ...

I'm thinking it is my speakers, plural, not singular. A while ago I was tweaking stuff and I carelessly plugged in a cable without turning my system off first ... the result was an ear-piercing blast of static through all of my speakers ...

So: A, maybe that blast of static damaged my speakers in some way,

or

B: I'm just not happy anymore with the sound of these particular speakers

or

C: It is an issue with Audyssey. In the Audyssey FAQ one of the questions is: "Why does my treble sound worse after I run Audyssey?" which makes me think this isn't an unknown issue.

By the way, here is a thread from someone who seems to be having a problem very much like mine ... Never got resolved, sadly.

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1998578
Do you have access to another AVR to test? Rerun Audyssey with the mic in the same location for all readings.

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post #39607 of 39626 Old 10-18-2014, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by samfsu View Post
For $2000... Would you do it? It's about 2-3 months old. I am going to use the setup in a 21x12 dedicated theater room. 8' ceiling. Mostly for movies and some sports. My only concern is that the Klipsch website says the 5 yr warranty is for the "original owner".

Front: Klipsch RB-81II Bookshelf Speaker
Center: Klipsch RC-62II
Rear: Klipsch RS-52II Surround Speaker
Subwoofer: Klipsch SW-310
Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR838
If the speakers are working now I wouldn't worry about warranty not having seen any problems with those--Insofar as the Onkyo and Subwoofer, that is where it would be worth having, imo...Then again, $700 could buy a replacement for either one of those. My 2 cents.
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post #39608 of 39626 Old 10-18-2014, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samfsu View Post
For $2000... Would you do it? It's about 2-3 months old. I am going to use the setup in a 21x12 dedicated theater room. 8' ceiling. Mostly for movies and some sports. My only concern is that the Klipsch website says the 5 yr warranty is for the "original owner".

Front: Klipsch RB-81II Bookshelf Speaker
Center: Klipsch RC-62II
Rear: Klipsch RS-52II Surround Speaker
Subwoofer: Klipsch SW-310
Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR838
Its not a bad deal. Klipsch costs about 70% of retail new street value. Used I would say 50-60% if in great condition. You would need a new sub imo. But you could always sell the 310. I would say if its what you want grab it.

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post #39609 of 39626 Old 10-18-2014, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Soupy1970 View Post
...Rerun Audyssey with the mic in the same location for all readings.
Why should he do that?
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post #39610 of 39626 Old 10-18-2014, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post
Why should he do that?
To see if Audyssey is over adjusting for his room. He said it sounds a little better in pure direct mode. IMO Audyssey sounds better if all mic locations are centered around the main listening position and not spread out to far.
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post #39611 of 39626 Old 10-18-2014, 07:44 PM
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Thank you all for responding!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post
Hard to say without hearing it myself....Your description of "Screechy" makes me think of sibilance--His description of "crackle" makes me think something else is wrong either in his speaker or AVR. Fwiw, any of the above could be true but if it is Audyssey, I would be curious what parameter you have it set to (Audyssey, Flat, DSX, etc.)
I'm running it under Audyssey. I also tried Flat. I have the volume thingy switched off but I have been using DynamicEQ. I'll have to try it without that.

You're right about the crackling--I don't hear any. Hard to describe exactly what I'm hearing. It could be sibilance, which the Reference series is apparently known for, but on some S sounds I don't hear any distortion (spell check changed that to "contortionist"). "Screetchy" "Scratchy" "Rough" and "Metallic" are the descriptions I would reach for. Male voices with a lot of bass sound fine, slightly higher voices often sound bad.

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Originally Posted by Soupy1970 View Post
Do you have access to another AVR to test? Rerun Audyssey with the mic in the same location for all readings.
I'm coming from my ancient Denon 3802, which didn't even have HDMI. Again the issue seemed present, but it sounds much worse now. I guess I could hook up the 3802 again, but it would be a little involved ...

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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post
Why should he do that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soupy1970 View Post
To see if Audyssey is over adjusting for his room. He said it sounds a little better in pure direct mode. IMO Audyssey sounds better if all mic locations are centered around the main listening position and not spread out to far.
Someone in the thread I linked to claimed that using just one mic position--I think you just click "done" or "finished" or whatever after running the first position--fixes the problem with distorted vocals. I don't buy this, but I will try it anyway.

The mic readings I ran previously were spaced in two foot gaps, with no more than three positions in a row, so it wasn't like I was all over the room ...

This is from the Audyssey FAQ here:

a)9. Why are my high frequencies 'bright' or 'harsh' since running Audyssey?

This can happen if the main speakers are not ‘toed-in’ properly, or angled towards the MLP. In these circumstances, if the Audyssey mic is off-axis from the tweeters, Audyssey can boost the high frequencies in order to achieve the desired response. There have been anecdotal reports/speculation that XT32 is especially ‘sensitive’ in this regard due to its super fine resolution for correction. So, if your HF is too bright or even harsh after running Audyssey, and your speakers are not angled towards the MLP, try repositioning them and running Audyssey again.

It is also important to make sure that the mic is pointing directly up towards the ceiling and not at an angle as the latter can also induce bright HF as Audyssey tries to overcompensate for the incorrect 'grazing angle' of the mic. Please check the 'See Also' links below for more information on the all-important Audyssey mic technique.

Please note that some speakers are specifically designed to not be toed-in. Check your speaker manual to see if this applies to your speakers. It is advisable to follow the manufacturer’s instructions in these cases.

Last edited by Tangled Cable; 10-18-2014 at 08:01 PM.
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post #39612 of 39626 Old 10-18-2014, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangled Cable View Post
Thank you all for responding!



I'm running it under Audyssey. I also tried Flat. I have the volume thingy switched off but I have been using DynamicEQ. I'll have to try it without that.

You're right about the crackling--I don't hear any. Hard to describe exactly what I'm hearing. It could be sibilance, which the Reference series is apparently known for, but on some S sounds I don't hear any distortion (spell check changed that to "contortionist"). "Screetchy" "Scratchy" "Rough" and "Metallic" are the descriptions I would reach for. Male voices with a lot of bass sound fine, slightly higher voices often sound bad.



I'm coming from my ancient Denon 3802, which didn't even have HDMI. Again the issue seemed present, but it sounds much worse now. I guess I could hook up the 3802 again, but it would be a little involved ...





Someone in the thread I linked to claimed that using just one mic position--I think you just click "done" or "finished" or whatever after running the first position--fixes the problem with distorted vocals. I don't buy this, but I will try it anyway.

The mic readings I ran previously were spaced in two foot gaps, with no more than three positions in a row, so it wasn't like I was all over the room ...
How many times have you ran Audyssey since switching AVR's? I'm sure you know to check and make sure no speakers are -+12 after running Audyssey? If you only ran Audyssey once than I would run it again for sure. If you have ran it several times, it's still might be worth trying the one mic position.

I'm not sure how it's done but you can check your woofer's tweets, and crossovers using a multimeter. If it was present with the old AVR than I'm leaning toward the speakers having a problem.

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post #39613 of 39626 Old 10-18-2014, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samfsu View Post
For $2000... Would you do it? It's about 2-3 months old. I am going to use the setup in a 21x12 dedicated theater room. 8' ceiling. Mostly for movies and some sports. My only concern is that the Klipsch website says the 5 yr warranty is for the "original owner".

Front: Klipsch RB-81II Bookshelf Speaker
Center: Klipsch RC-62II
Rear: Klipsch RS-52II Surround Speaker
Subwoofer: Klipsch SW-310
Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR838
Those speakers are nice, if they are only few months old then why not to take them. Warranty from Klipsch is always only for original owner but if he is willing to help later on if any warranty issue then no problem. I bought mine RF-82II and RC-62II 1 month old from guy he bought it on Cruschfield and we are in touch if I will ever need a help with warranty. AVR looks good, reviews on it are very good so no worries there only sub what I will replace but you can wait play with this one and then you will appreciate more new sub. Also you have a good size room so if you decide later on add towers like RF-82II let's say you can move RB-81II for surrounds back, front heights or wides without any problem.

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post #39614 of 39626 Old Yesterday, 06:02 AM
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Spent the evening alone last night; no wife or teenagers in the house. So I went to a concert in my HT room.

A few tracks of Diana Krall's Live in Paris with great improvs and drums, Ariane Moffatt à la Station C with her great use of surround reverb on Grand cerf-volant, on to Norah Jones Live in New Orleans with again very well recorded drums, and finished with Michael Kaeshammer's KAESHAMMERLIVE with an incredibly well recorded concert with again fantastic drums. Unfortunately not a Bluray among them! Some video in 4x3 format as well! But great music. I would buy them all over again in Bluray.

If you like that type of jazz and don't know of Michael Kaeshammer, check him out:

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post #39615 of 39626 Old Yesterday, 08:07 AM
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What about the KV-3 as a center with my RB-5 mains? I know they won't be a perfect timber match but could it be workable? How does the KV-3 compare to my current RC-3?

I could also possibly replace the RB-5s with some KG4s ... What do you guys think of the KG4s for a home theater?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soupy1970 View Post
How many times have you ran Audyssey since switching AVR's? I'm sure you know to check and make sure no speakers are -+12 after running Audyssey? If you only ran Audyssey once than I would run it again for sure. If you have ran it several times, it's still might be worth trying the one mic position.

I'm not sure how it's done but you can check your woofer's tweets, and crossovers using a multimeter. If it was present with the old AVR than I'm leaning toward the speakers having a problem.
I am thinking it might be the speakers as well. I have run Audyssey maybe four or five times. I'll double check but I'm pretty sure no speakers are - or + 12. I will try the one mic position when I get the time. Thanks for responding!
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post #39616 of 39626 Old Yesterday, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Tangled Cable View Post
What about the KV-3 as a center with my RB-5 mains? I know they won't be a perfect timber match but could it be workable? How does the KV-3 compare to my current RC-3?

I could also possibly replace the RB-5s with some KG4s ... What do you guys think of the KG4s for a home theater?



I am thinking it might be the speakers as well. I have run Audyssey maybe four or five times. I'll double check but I'm pretty sure no speakers are - or + 12. I will try the one mic position when I get the time. Thanks for responding!
It's going to be hard for anyone to give you a definitive answer on which center channel to get given the RC-3 was voice-matched to your RB-5s and all three speakers should have the same tonal quality. My last thoughts are these:

1) You could have damaged your speakers in the incident you mentioned but I think not since you aren't hearing buzzing or crackling.

2) Now that you are hearing sibilance you may now be more acutely aware of it and will always be looking for it.---If that's the case you may want to go to your tone controls and manually adjust the treble.

3) Bang for your buck the RB-5s/RC-3 are nice and to upgrade in the Klipsch line you would need to go bigger--you could try either a newer or older center channel but imo, the RB-5s will still have the sonic signature of your RC-3 if it's/they aren't damaged.

4) I am reluctant to say this but after going with the KLF-20s and then the RF-7s (and appropriate center channels) all of the lower end speakers I can't listen to for any length of time---It's all about what you get used to hearing.

5) Your hearing and/or expectations may have changed and try a different front soundstage, Klipsch or not.

6) I don't think it's your AVR or Audyssey unless for some reason it has a flaw.

Anyway, those are my final thoughts and good luck--The only thing new I can offer is to manually adjust the tone control, which actually could help.
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post #39617 of 39626 Old Yesterday, 09:11 AM
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Its not a bad deal. Klipsch costs about 70% of retail new street value. Used I would say 50-60% if in great condition.
Can you explain that a little more please? So do you mean on a 1000 dollar speaker the store cost is 300, 700? I am just trying to follow what you are saying? Or is it a 70 percent mark up? Using my example of a speaker costing 1000 new at the store what is it you were trying to illustrate?
thanks in advance.
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post #39618 of 39626 Old Yesterday, 09:32 AM
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Can you explain that a little more please? So do you mean on a 1000 dollar speaker the store cost is 300, 700? I am just trying to follow what you are saying? Or is it a 70 percent mark up? Using my example of a speaker costing 1000 new at the store what is it you were trying to illustrate?
thanks in advance.
If speaker cost $1000 dealers will give you aprx 30% off + shipping. So price will be $700 + shipping. Like pair RB-81II is MSRP $425 each but from dealers you will buy them $625 + $20 shipping or similar. So used market must be even better so it is why is around 40-50% off from MSRP prices (I guess)

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post #39619 of 39626 Old Yesterday, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post
It could be the placement the speaker is in the room and you are hearing distortion on a certain passage. If it's happening on other material then you very well could have damaged it. Another option is to change the speakers around and see if follows the speaker. Fwiw, I thought the same thing on a Who DVD concert but found it was source specific.

That said, on Blu rays you leave the sub on, right?
You had it. I just adjusted the speaker's position and I couldn't reproduce the sound. We're not even talking about a major move just a few degrees. I've always heard speaker placement was important, but damn. A few inches toed in left or right made me think I'd damaged my speaker. And yes I do leave my sub on for blu rays. Thanks again for you help
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post #39620 of 39626 Old Yesterday, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangled Cable View Post
What about the KV-3 as a center with my RB-5 mains? I know they won't be a perfect timber match but could it be workable? How does the KV-3 compare to my current RC-3?

I could also possibly replace the RB-5s with some KG4s ... What do you guys think of the KG4s for a home theater?



I am thinking it might be the speakers as well. I have run Audyssey maybe four or five times. I'll double check but I'm pretty sure no speakers are - or + 12. I will try the one mic position when I get the time. Thanks for responding!
My front 3 all come in maxed at -12 due to the high sensitivity (104).
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post #39621 of 39626 Old Yesterday, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by metalguy View Post
Can you explain that a little more please? So do you mean on a 1000 dollar speaker the store cost is 300, 700? I am just trying to follow what you are saying? Or is it a 70 percent mark up? Using my example of a speaker costing 1000 new at the store what is it you were trying to illustrate?
thanks in advance.
Street price is what they sell for too you. So 1000 speakers new would cost you 700ish. Used in great shape should run you 50-60% of retail. ( 500-600 in this example)
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post #39622 of 39626 Old Yesterday, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post
Anyway, those are my final thoughts and good luck--The only thing new I can offer is to manually adjust the tone control, which actually could help.
I really appreciate the input, Zen Traveler! (Do you really practice? I don't but I love Rinzai). Anyway, I just ran Audyssey again. This time I did two things differently. Ran only one mic position--and turned off my overhead projector. I read that it should be turned off to minimize noise interference, but my projector is pretty quiet and with no screen display it is a little tricky to calibrate using just the AVR's own display (for instance I got a phase error and couldn't tell which speaker from looking at the display ...). But I figured I might as well try it.

One of those two things definitely made a difference. Vocals aren't quite where I'd like them to be--still a little boxy--but they are now much more tolerable/less distorted than they were previously.

Still thinking of changing speakers though ... so ...

How do you all think KG4 fronts with a KV-3 center would hold up against my RB-5s and RC-3? I would eventually do the Bob Crites upgrades if I made the switch.

Thoughts?
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post #39623 of 39626 Old Yesterday, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Tangled Cable View Post
I really appreciate the input, Zen Traveler! (Do you really practice? I don't but I love Rinzai). Anyway, I just ran Audyssey again. This time I did two things differently. Ran only one mic position--and turned off my overhead projector. I read that it should be turned off to minimize noise interference, but my projector is pretty quiet and with no screen display it is a little tricky to calibrate using just the AVR's own display (for instance I got a phase error and couldn't tell which speaker from looking at the display ...). But I figured I might as well try it.

One of those two things definitely made a difference. Vocals aren't quite where I'd like them to be--still a little boxy--but they are now much more tolerable/less distorted than they were previously.

Still thinking of changing speakers though ... so ...

How do you all think KG4 fronts with a KV-3 center would hold up against my RB-5s and RC-3? I would eventually do the Bob Crites upgrades if I made the switch.

Thoughts?
Well, my guess turning off the overhead projector helped but it was Soupy1970 who gave you the single position advice. {Note: I setup Audyssey as per the instructions and get excellent results.}

I have no opinion or experience with the speakers you are considering but good luck in your endeavor.
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post #39624 of 39626 Old Yesterday, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangled Cable View Post
I really appreciate the input, Zen Traveler! (Do you really practice? I don't but I love Rinzai). Anyway, I just ran Audyssey again. This time I did two things differently. Ran only one mic position--and turned off my overhead projector. I read that it should be turned off to minimize noise interference, but my projector is pretty quiet and with no screen display it is a little tricky to calibrate using just the AVR's own display (for instance I got a phase error and couldn't tell which speaker from looking at the display ...). But I figured I might as well try it.

One of those two things definitely made a difference. Vocals aren't quite where I'd like them to be--still a little boxy--but they are now much more tolerable/less distorted than they were previously.

Still thinking of changing speakers though ... so ...

How do you all think KG4 fronts with a KV-3 center would hold up against my RB-5s and RC-3? I would eventually do the Bob Crites upgrades if I made the switch.

Thoughts?
Was that speaker truly out of phase? It's been noted that Audyssey can kick out a false report sometimes, so be sure that wasn't the problem. I run dual screen from my AVR so I turn everything but the small flat screen I use as a Computer monitor off. I have a utility room close by, so I kick off the Freezer, Water heater, & HVAC system in that room. I shut down my computer as well. I make sure no one is home walking around upstairs.
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Denon X4000 - Klipsch KLF-10 Fronts - Klipsch KLF-C7 Center - Klipsch KLF-C7 X 2 Surrounds - Dual HSU VTF-3 MK4 Subs - BenQ W1070 projector - 106" Antra fixed Screen - 3D powered by AMD home built computer
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post #39625 of 39626 Old Yesterday, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by samfsu View Post
For $2000... Would you do it? It's about 2-3 months old. I am going to use the setup in a 21x12 dedicated theater room. 8' ceiling. Mostly for movies and some sports. My only concern is that the Klipsch website says the 5 yr warranty is for the "original owner".

Front: Klipsch RB-81II Bookshelf Speaker
Center: Klipsch RC-62II
Rear: Klipsch RS-52II Surround Speaker
Subwoofer: Klipsch SW-310
Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR838
Not much cheaper (if at all) than a similar or even better system from sound distributors or acoustic sound design. I would try to either shoot for a lower price, or at least cross shop and ask them how much for a similar system.

edit: just saw you got it priced from ASD for $2700. Weird, since that is the price they had a similar system with rf-82 instead of the bookshelves. In any case, it's not a bad price, but not a screaming deal either. If he drops by at least 10% I'd say it's a pretty good deal.

- Klipsch RF-82 ii, RC-62 ii, RS-52 ii
- Klipsch RW-12D
- Sony HW50es
- Firehawk G3
- Denon 2113

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post #39626 of 39626 Old Yesterday, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by samfsu View Post
I did and they are $700 more
Maybe ask ASD how much all set without Klipsch sub with RF-82Ii's.You really don't want Klipsch sub, it will be easier to give it up and have cheaper price now. Also Mike from AVS have maybe some speakers left for even better price.

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