Dynaudio Owner's Thread - Page 1071 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #32101 of 32129 Unread 09-24-2016, 09:11 PM
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You guys and gals worried about margins have obviously never owned a business. The dealers are the people showing, selling and installing the products. They are NOT out to rob you, they are there to help. Dynaudio would fail miserably as an Internet direct company.

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post #32102 of 32129 Unread Yesterday, 12:37 AM
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If people wonder what kind of company Dynaudio is.... Please read the attached email. You can thank Brian for the downfall, mick. Also, it's very tasteless to threaten my life.
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post #32103 of 32129 Unread Yesterday, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by shample View Post
So let me get this straight. Just a week ago some of you were making an argument on how dealers work on small margins, while some others and I stated it's a 40% average, and now that a price sheet is posted the margins are spot on?

I think what is spot on.....is that dealers that won't move off MSRP will continually lose customers. That is what is spot on.
Maybe you need to go back and re-read those posts, because that wasn't the argument.

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post #32104 of 32129 Unread Yesterday, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Grooms View Post
You guys and gals worried about margins have obviously never owned a business. The dealers are the people showing, selling and installing the products. They are NOT out to rob you, they are there to help. Dynaudio would fail miserably as an Internet direct company.
I have to imagine...there are plenty of business owners in this thread. I've owned 2, including currently. But you're missing the point.

I...as the business owner; should get to decide, how I want to run my business. If Dyn says: the cost to you, of C1 Plats...is $5250; and you should make $3500, on the sale of a pair. Well...that's their suggestion; as in MSRP...Manufactures Suggested Retail Price. But every situation is different.

If a new customer comes in...a dozen times. Auditions for hours. You hold his hand, for weeks...before you even get down to brass tacks. Sure...charge and/or discount him, what you think is fair; because of the time spent and costs associated with that sale. And you'll either get the sale, and your time and investment will have been paid for; or even after all that...he'll walk out the door, and buy from someone else.

But if a guy calls, or emails you; says...I heard these at the show, and my buddy has a pair. I'm in; now it's just a matter of price. Do you really "deserve", to make $3500...for a phone call? And I'm not talking about, selling outside your area; I'm just talking about, not getting your a$$ slapped...for a calculated, business decision (and for the record...I am hardly, singling Dyn out here; this is about the industry in general. Nor, am I suggesting...Dyn become ID ).

Like I said...I don't even care about the margins. The free market, takes care of itself. If dealers decide, they don't like the Dyn model; they'll stop carrying it, and then Dyn (or again, whomever...will be in trouble, yes?). But like I said; it's the hypocrisy, that sometimes turns my stomach (and I'm far from squeamish).

I'm not into naming names; but c'mon...we all know a certain dealer or dealers, who discount and outside their territory. And I can guarantee you...they're sitting down to steaks and scotches, with Mick, Otto, and Wilfried.

Again; I know this will rub some nerves raw, as I am want to do on occasion. But this is NOT an attack, on Dynaudio (whose speakers I still regard highly). In fact...many of you know me, to be a PMC guy; and their distribution model...at least in the US...is even more screwed-up, lol.

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post #32105 of 32129 Unread Yesterday, 09:04 AM
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I have to imagine...there are plenty of business owners in this thread. I've owned 2, including currently. But you're missing the point.

I...as the business owner; should get to decide, how I want to run my business. If Dyn says: the cost to you, of C1 Plats...is $5250; and you should make $3500, on the sale of a pair. Well...that's their suggestion; as in MSRP...Manufactures Suggested Retail Price. But every situation is different.

If a new customer comes in...a dozen times. Auditions for hours. You hold his hand, for weeks...before you even get down to brass tacks. Sure...charge and/or discount him, what you think is fair; because of the time spent and costs associated with that sale. And you'll either get the sale, and your time and investment will have been paid for; or even after all that...he'll walk out the door, and buy from someone else.

But if a guy calls, or emails you; says...I heard these at the show, and my buddy has a pair. I'm in; now it's just a matter of price. Do you really "deserve", to make $3500...for a phone call? And I'm not talking about, selling outside your area; I'm just talking about, not getting your a$$ slapped...for a calculated, business decision (and for the record...I am hardly, singling Dyn out here; this is about the industry in general. Nor, am I suggesting...Dyn become ID ).

Like I said...I don't even care about the margins. The free market, takes care of itself. If dealers decide, they don't like the Dyn model; they'll stop carrying it, and then Dyn (or again, whomever...will be in trouble, yes?). But like I said; it's the hypocrisy, that sometimes turns my stomach (and I'm far from squeamish).

I'm not into naming names; but c'mon...we all know a certain dealer or dealers, who discount and outside their territory. And I can guarantee you...they're sitting down to steaks and scotches, with Mick, Otto, and Wilfried.

Again; I know this will rub some nerves raw, as I am want to do on occasion. But this is NOT an attack, on Dynaudio (whose speakers I still regard highly). In fact...many of you know me, to be a PMC guy; and their distribution model...at least in the US...is even more screwed-up, lol.

Viva la Revolution!
I am one of the lucky ones that has an old school audio shop in my hometown,just this past Saturday i went down there to pick up my speaker cables that he was refitting with banana plugs,instead of spades,and also adding an '"F" connection jumper for my bi-wirable speakers(Taksim's).He is more than happy to do little things like this with no charge,because i am a loyal long time customer.It is also nice to sit around and chat with fellow audiophiles and pick up little tips to improve your set-up...a guy there suggested i try cat 7 ethernet cable,instead of the cat 6 i am now using,has anyone tried this uprgrade?He says the difference is staggering for a small outlay of cash.I miss the days of going to a record store and leafing through all the albums,can't think of a better way of killing some time.
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post #32106 of 32129 Unread Yesterday, 10:44 AM
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Hey Anybody know if the new Contous will be RMAF? Thanks.

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post #32107 of 32129 Unread Yesterday, 11:02 AM
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.....a guy there suggested i try cat 7 ethernet cable,instead of the cat 6 i am now using,has anyone tried this uprgrade?He says the difference is staggering for a small outlay of cash.
Staggering in what way? Cat 6 already uses twisted pair conductors and is capable at transferring data at much higher speeds than anyone's home internet speed availability. I would guess you aren't going to hear a difference.

Then, you also have to consider that it's hard to find a "certified" true cat 7 cable, and some have been tested to not even exceed "certified" cat 6 speeds. Basically, there are a lot of cat 7 cables that perform worse than a good cat 6. Cat 7 was designed for people that need longer than a 100 meter run.

Edit: Keep in mind too that the ANSI standard for a Cat 6 cable requires it to be 22-24 AWG in copper thickness. Most all Cat 7 cables that are being sold today on eBay, Amazon, Newegg, Monoprice, etc. are all 26 AWG. So unless you find an obscure wire manufacturer that sells terminated cables (which will cost more), you are paying for less copper than a Cat 6 cable. I found a few online that sell 23 AWG terminated cables. They are about 2-4x the cost of the mainstream resources.

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post #32108 of 32129 Unread Yesterday, 11:21 AM
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If people wonder what kind of company Dynaudio is.... Please read the attached email. You can thank Brian for the downfall, mick. Also, it's very tasteless to threaten my life.
All I see is an apology. I'm interested in seeing the initial email that warranted the apology.

I've never dealt with Brian. I know every time I've ever talked with Mike I always get the same response; "send me an email". Then he never acts on the email and I end up calling Mick to get my situation handled. Mike is pretty worthless when it comes to customer service.

The only time I've ever had an issue with Mick is when he emailed me asking why I was calling other dealers shopping around. I told him I don't have a dealer in my area (which he already knew), so he replied with ok. It's funny to me how distributors think they can tell me where I can spend my own hard earned money. They really think they have that control.

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post #32109 of 32129 Unread Yesterday, 11:41 AM
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Maybe you need to go back and re-read those posts, because that wasn't the argument.
The argument was you think everyone here is an idiot, and we all are clueless to simple overhead costs. Your argument was the dealer margins are small and the overhead eats up their already small margins. You are making blanket statements as if all dealers are just getting by. I call BS.

The high end audio market is no different than any other market. There are those who are successful, and those who are not. There are good doctors, and bad doctors. There are good attorneys, and bad attorneys. There are cities with good markets, and cities with bad markets. Just because you are familiar with dealers who aren't very good at what they do, doesn't mean all dealers are broke.

I'm done with this discussion for two reasons:

1. I don't care how much a dealer makes. I care about how much I spend. So the margins are really moot in my mind.

2. If a dealer doesn't come off MSRP, and by a good margin, I shop elsewhere. That will never change. Just as I spend my money, you spend yours.


You would think on a consumer forum more people would be defending getting a good deal, and not paying a dealer thousands for the action of making a simple phone call. This is coming from a successful business owner of over ten years. At the end of the day, the realized gain is what matters; not holding firm at MSRP and passing up potential gain just to do so.
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post #32110 of 32129 Unread Yesterday, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by shample View Post
All I see is an apology. I'm interested in seeing the initial email that warranted the apology.

I've never dealt with Brian. I know every time I've ever talked with Mike I always get the same response; "send me an email". Then he never acts on the email and I end up calling Mick to get my situation handled. Mike is pretty worthless when it comes to customer service.

The only time I've ever had an issue with Mick is when he emailed me asking why I was calling other dealers shopping around. I told him I don't have a dealer in my area (which he already knew), so he replied with ok. It's funny to me how distributors think they can't tell me where I can spend my hard earned money. They really think they have that control.
I can't even open it!

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post #32111 of 32129 Unread Yesterday, 12:24 PM
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For people that missed my ebay post....here you go.
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Larger discounts.
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post #32113 of 32129 Unread Yesterday, 12:54 PM
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i cant open any of these attachments, but it feels like grade school drama. Nothing screams business integrity like spite posting against competitive products.

how about posting some of the margins on some of your cable offerings ?
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post #32114 of 32129 Unread Yesterday, 12:57 PM
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i cant open any of these attachments, but it feels like grade school drama. Nothing screams business integrity like spite posting against competitive products.

how about posting some of the margins on some of your cable offerings ?
I couldn't in Safari, but Firefox let me open them.

I can agree, but if he posts the unprofessional conduct by the Dyn rep which warranted an apology, that would be interesting and informative to the general public; and maybe even Dynaudio corporate.
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post #32115 of 32129 Unread Yesterday, 01:47 PM
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All I see is an apology. I'm interested in seeing the initial email that warranted the apology.

I've never dealt with Brian. I know every time I've ever talked with Mike I always get the same response; "send me an email". Then he never acts on the email and I end up calling Mick to get my situation handled. Mike is pretty worthless when it comes to customer service.

The only time I've ever had an issue with Mick is when he emailed me asking why I was calling other dealers shopping around. I told him I don't have a dealer in my area (which he already knew), so he replied with ok. It's funny to me how distributors think they can tell me where I can spend my own hard earned money. They really think they have that control.
I have known Mike since he's been at Dynaudio and both Mike and Mick have always been very respectfully and took care of any problems with products instantly when I dealt with them as a Manager years ago at a High End Dealership. I have personally met both of them several times and they have always been very responsive to any of my questions via the phone or e-mails. Mike recently took care of an issue with a Xeo 2 that went dead and got them replaced within a week, so calling him worthless on this form is pretty rude if you ask me. Now out of the blue we have some drama starting up from some dealer that has a gripe with them... Sounds pretty flipping fishy to me! Frankly to air this type of BS between a dealer and manufacturer/distributor over a public forum is pretty tasteless!

On a more civil note, I do agree with your reasoning on MSRP etc..

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post #32116 of 32129 Unread Yesterday, 02:00 PM
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If people wonder what kind of company Dynaudio is.... Please read the attached email. You can thank Brian for the downfall, mick. Also, it's very tasteless to threaten my life.
That looks like a pretty harmless e-mail apologizing for a mix-up of some kind, so the wonder part is left out as it's obviously not the whole story and to air business grievances on this forum is pretty tasteless if you ask me.

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Mike recently took care of an issue with a Xeo 2 that went dead and got them replaced within a week, so calling him worthless on this form is pretty rude if you ask me.
So my experience differs from yours. At least 3 times he's told me to email him and then weeks later I've had to get Mick involved. Over and over again. Stating the truth about my experiences doesn't make me rude.

Some of you guys here need to realize that this can't all be a Dynaudio arse kissing fest. Some of us have had less than superb experiences, and aren't here to just brown nose.

As a whole, they have always resolved any issue I've had, but it surely wasn't Mike who handled it.
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post #32118 of 32129 Unread Yesterday, 03:31 PM
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So my experience differs from yours. At least 3 times he's told me to email him and then weeks later I've had to get Mick involved. Over and over again. Stating the truth about my experiences doesn't make me rude.

Some of you guys here need to realize that this can't all be a Dynaudio arse kissing fest. Some of us have had less than superb experiences, and aren't here to just brown nose.

As a whole, they have always resolved any issue I've had, but it surely wasn't Mike who handled it.
Not kissing fest here dude, my experience was different and if you want to call that (|)s kissing so be it, it's my "opinion" some of your knee jerk comments are rude, that is pretty evident in posts to me and others in here. Thankfully there is an ignore button on AVS!
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Staggering in what way? Cat 6 already uses twisted pair conductors and is capable at transferring data at much higher speeds than anyone's home internet speed availability. I would guess you aren't going to hear a difference.

Then, you also have to consider that it's hard to find a "certified" true cat 7 cable, and some have been tested to not even exceed "certified" cat 6 speeds. Basically, there are a lot of cat 7 cables that perform worse than a good cat 6. Cat 7 was designed for people that need longer than a 100 meter run.

Edit: Keep in mind too that the ANSI standard for a Cat 6 cable requires it to be 22-24 AWG in copper thickness. Most all Cat 7 cables that are being sold today on eBay, Amazon, Newegg, Monoprice, etc. are all 26 AWG. So unless you find an obscure wire manufacturer that sells terminated cables (which will cost more), you are paying for less copper than a Cat 6 cable. I found a few online that sell 23 AWG terminated cables. They are about 2-4x the cost of the mainstream resources.
I have not tried cat 7,i assume he means more detail,lower noise floor etc.He said the cat 7 has better shielding than cat 6,he got it off amazon.I may order some to try,it is not that expensive,i know some guys on the Naim forum have switched to audioquest cinamon with good results,but that is more expensive.
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post #32120 of 32129 Unread Today, 12:21 PM
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I have not tried cat 7,i assume he means more detail,lower noise floor etc.He said the cat 7 has better shielding than cat 6,he got it off amazon.I may order some to try,it is not that expensive,i know some guys on the Naim forum have switched to audioquest cinamon with good results,but that is more expensive.
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...xQfuQad-S_yqtA
CAT7 won't sound any better than CAT6 unless there is something seriously wrong with your network. Even then, network protocols are self correcting. If there is something that seriously wrong, you can look at the error counters on any switch and see what the problems are.

I would put this in the same category as $3000 liquid nitrogen dipped power cords...

Edited to add: $2195 for a 10 foot Ethernet cable. Wow. Definitely in audiophile territory. I'm going to stop myself here before I go off-topic.
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Dynaudio has the IC 17 in ceiling speakers.
Following up on this, what do people think of this for a 5.1.4 Atmos config?

Contour 60 front L&R
Contour 20 rear L&R
Contour 25C center front
IC17 x 4 Atmos height channels
Existing Velodyne DD12 sub

I can't fit another set of Contour 20's for additional rear channels, but I could do something in-wall if I wanted to go 7.1.4. Would the IW17 or IP24 be a better choice? And how would those work alongside the Contour 20s?

My installer wants me to look at Focal. I prefer Dynaudio though, even if I need to install them myself.
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That could be a great system if you add the additional set of C20's for 7.1.4 surround sound. The sub will be your weak point.

When you get it, send it all to me for testing. I'm sure I can get all the testing done and returned to you inside of 15 years.

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I have not tried cat 7,i assume he means more detail,lower noise floor etc.He said the cat 7 has better shielding than cat 6,he got it off amazon.I may order some to try,it is not that expensive,i know some guys on the Naim forum have switched to audioquest cinamon with good results,but that is more expensive.
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...xQfuQad-S_yqtA
It's worth a try if you don't mind spending the money. As you stated, the shielding is the only difference between the two. Just keep in mind that most CAT 7 cable will have smaller copper wire. If you plan to do it, make sure you are buying 23 AWG stranded or solid copper conductors. I wouldn't trade my 23 AWG solid CAT 6 for a CAT 7 with smaller conductors. You would be trading more shielding for less current carrying capability.
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post #32124 of 32129 Unread Today, 04:06 PM
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CAT7 won't sound any better than CAT6 unless there is something seriously wrong with your network. Even then, network protocols are self correcting. If there is something that seriously wrong, you can look at the error counters on any switch and see what the problems are.

I would put this in the same category as $3000 liquid nitrogen dipped power cords...

Edited to add: $2195 for a 10 foot Ethernet cable. Wow. Definitely in audiophile territory. I'm going to stop myself here before I go off-topic.
The cat 7 cable I saw on Amazon was 50 bucks,not sure where you are getting $2200 from...even the cinnamon audioquest cable in my link,which I did NOT say I was buying is $119/10 feet,so IF I did end up getting one of those,I could get away with a 20 foot length.When everything else in your system is complete,and you don't want to change it,you look at the little things to pick up slight improvements YMMV.

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post #32125 of 32129 Unread Today, 04:09 PM
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Following up on this, what do people think of this for a 5.1.4 Atmos config?

Contour 60 front L&R
Contour 20 rear L&R
Contour 25C center front
IC17 x 4 Atmos height channels
Existing Velodyne DD12 sub

I can't fit another set of Contour 20's for additional rear channels, but I could do something in-wall if I wanted to go 7.1.4. Would the IW17 or IP24 be a better choice? And how would those work alongside the Contour 20s?

My installer wants me to look at Focal. I prefer Dynaudio though, even if I need to install them myself.

It all looks good, but I wouldn't waste my money on using Contour 20's in the rear. A pair of Emits won't sound any different. Surrounds play such limited information.
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post #32126 of 32129 Unread Today, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by analog8 View Post
Following up on this, what do people think of this for a 5.1.4 Atmos config?

Contour 60 front L&R
Contour 20 rear L&R
Contour 25C center front
IC17 x 4 Atmos height channels
Existing Velodyne DD12 sub

I can't fit another set of Contour 20's for additional rear channels, but I could do something in-wall if I wanted to go 7.1.4. Would the IW17 or IP24 be a better choice? And how would those work alongside the Contour 20s?

My installer wants me to look at Focal. I prefer Dynaudio though, even if I need to install them myself.
Sounds like a pretty awesome system, although I'd add an additional sub.
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Originally Posted by shample View Post
It's worth a try if you don't mind spending the money. As you stated, the shielding is the only difference between the two. Just keep in mind that most CAT 7 cable will have smaller copper wire. If you plan to do it, make sure you are buying 23 AWG stranded or solid copper conductors. I wouldn't trade my 23 AWG solid CAT 6 for a CAT 7 with smaller conductors. You would be trading more shielding for less current carrying capability.
For digital signals current isn't a problem. It's voltage with 'good clean transients' will matter more. Now remember Tony only needs 20ft. I have 2 - 1.5M digital cable going from my Naim to Aavik and the one with a bigger gauge is more forward (as if you turned up the volume) but lack 'soul' and emotion' big time. Not to mention a more open and 3D sound with added layers of resolution. Who would have thought digital matters for it's only 1's and 0's.

Tony go for it and report back
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Shample gauge is a lot more important when we're talking power cords and speaker cables. That said capacitance and inductance also play a huge major role. As the capacitance increases the highs suffer in more edgy highs. As inductance increases the attack and decay (muddiness) in the lows. It's more apparent with speaker cables than power cords but it still applies.
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post #32129 of 32129 Unread Today, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post
Shample gauge is a lot more important when we're talking power cords and speaker cables. That said capacitance and inductance also play a huge major role. As the capacitance increases the highs suffer in more edgy highs. As inductance increases the attack and decay (muddiness) in the lows. It's more apparent with speaker cables than power cords but it still applies.
ANSI CAT 6 standards specify 22-24 gauge for a reason. Gauge always matters; no matter the application. The larger wire will have less resistance.

Proper CAT 7 cable is still built with 23 gauge. It's all these mass market retailers that are selling the 26-28 gauge cables.
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