Originally Posted by Dynero
I apologize that was uncalled for. But you could have been a little more civil yes?
I have actually participated in a blinded speaker cable test. Have you?
Even better, numerous listening sessions where i was relaxed and completely unconscious of having test parameters and where i picked up different sounds, qualities and tones without expecting it to pop up. Usually while my mind was occupied and just listening in the zone.
No, that isn't better at all. That's the whole point. If you knew what cabling you were listening to (in other words it wasn't a blinded test) then it is absolutely useless. This is REALLY basic placebo effect here. Unless you had no knowledge of what was what, and could consistently hear differences and correctly choose what's what, then it's a totally pointless test.
This to me is far more an accurate assesment of how i perceive cables than any AB listening test since it takes human bias out of the equation
Usually when under scrutiny subjects do react differently than if they were left alone.
But if you knew what the cables were, then the test is testing ONLY your preconceived biases, it doesn't test the cables at all.
A network cable is transmitting 1's and 0's but surely some network cables don't transmit data exactly alike and it these differences we perceive.
No they don't, they transmit analog voltages just like speaker wire. Except the frequncies are much higher because it's a square wave of pulses, essentially.
Maybe a file transfer takes just a little bit more with one than another, sort of like jitter, but gets recombined the same way. who's to say?
People who understand some basic EE say how it works. Poorer quality cabling causes more difficulty in recovering the intended values, packets get dropped, and the network slows. Jitter is not an issue, it isn't a real-time transfer, packet order doesn't even matter.
Actually the tricky part with speaker cables for me is it's nearly at the tail end of the whole electrical to sound conversion.
So? So what? Why is this relevant? The task is an isolated one. Move these electrons (power) from the amp to the speaker, as unimpeded as possible. That's it. Extremely simple. To do that you need as much conductivity as possible. That's it. It's literally that simple for this particular and particularly simple task.
my thinking or theory is that just maybe it's at this juncture that things get sticky. All i can say is there are so many variables that even if you mastered all the laws that you know surely you don't know everything there is to know, and maybe it is in this realm that the differences come to pass.
All you can say is that you don't really know anything about how speaker wires work except that it's just too complicated given your current
level of knowledge. The prudent thing to do in this situation is to consult trusted and knowledgeable sources to learn about how speaker wires work so that you aren't in such a position of ignorance. Until that point, the other prudent thing to do is to say that you don't know, and refrain from holding an opinion on a technical topic that you have no business chiming in on if you don't understand the first thing about that topic.
But that's not what you did. You formed an opinion, despite the fact that you don't know anything about the topic. Not only that, you actually are here arguing about the topic and furthering your opinion despite the fact that you have absolutely no idea whether you are right or not because, as you say, there are just "so many variables" that you don't understand at all.
I'm already doing it, basic listening, if I hear a difference for the better all well and good.
Was it blinded? Or not? If it wasn't blinded, you don't even know if you actually heard a difference or not. That's the entire point. You may just THINK that you heard a difference which in fact was not present at all. It is exceptionally easy to fool yourself or other people into experiencing things that are not at all occurring.
I haven't thought about it, I'm sure most of your measurements are consistent but gagain how do you measure tonality or soundstaging, truth of timbre and palpability.
I don't know what you mean by tonality.
Soundstage is complicated, there are a lot of things that impact soundstage.
Truth of timbre is a meaningless term that cannot be addressed by measurement, nor "palpability" because those are subjective judgements about perception, not anything about the actual sound.
Again define performance? the transmission of your test data parameters?
Again, what if your measuring the wrong thing? You mean to tell me that if you heard two cables and you preferred one sound over the other you would choose to install in your system the one that had the superior specs on paper?
I'm telling you that they WON'T sound the same. There has not been any test, EVER, in the history of planet earth, where equivalent speaker wire was found to be audibly different. Ever. In the history of mankind. Get it?
You know people used to believe the Coelocanth was extinct, and that the mountain gorilla didn't exist, science couldn't prove it's existence because it didn't know where to look then
get my drift, just because science said they didn't exist didn't make science right. Right now neither you nor I can prove cables dont make a difference but maybe in twenty years with more sophisticated tests there may well be a difference.
You are totally wrong about that. Right now you or I can ABSOLUTELY prove, beyond any doubt, that cables make a difference. We conduct a rigorous blinded test to determine whether differences between two cables are audible. If the listener can correctly identify which cable is which (because they are audibly different), then it is proven.
I have actually conducted and participated in such a test, administered to a very experienced audiophile, who held your exact position. He failed that test. I also failed the test.
And if you were to do such a listening test, I would be curious to know what happens. All it takes is a single person to pass such a blinded test, and it is definitive proof that there can be audible differences in speaker cables. It has never happened. In the absence of ANY data or evidence supporting your position, intellectual rigor demands
that we proceed from the current evidence and the current state of understanding on the topic.
Oh I'm happy with my speaker cables, I was just curious about yours. What system do you use btw> Amplifier and speakers? Did you also choose them by specs or listening? I'm not being snarky, it's an honest question, it just sounds snarky.
I have generic 12-gauge speaker cabling, each run is less than 30 feet, to all 7 speakers in my room. My subwoofer cable is broadcast grade Belden 1694a coax, which is completely overkill for the task, but I use that everywhere for analog video cabling (no longer in use, but the proper and absolute best cable for the task) and for analog audio (overkill, but again it is convenient and economical to use the same cabling for multiple things rather than various different cables which would require different tool sets and connectors, etc, as long as the cable is still fully appropriate for the task).
I use dynaudio main speakers, which I chose by listening. It is beyond doubt that differences in speakers are audible. That is confirmed by measurement, and by blind testing, and really by common sense.
I use a Denon 5308ci receiver which I have mixed opinions on. I bought that because of Audyssey PRO and dynamic EQ capability, video options, and the price I could get because I am in the industry.
My CD source is a Musical Fidelity A3.5, which I didn't listen to before I bought, but I have heard various dynaudio pairings with MF gear which I loved, so it was an opportunistic purchase that I've been very happy with.
If you disagree with this simple and direct approach that takes into account everything that physics informs us is relevant to this particular task, then what is YOUR approach?
How about listening tests? Is that really so wrong?
If you are doing them sighted, yes absolutely. Sighted tests tell you nothing at all.
I certainly don't think that I have great respect for electrical engineers and even yourself since you obviously have knowledge in this field that far outstrips my own, my only contention is that you can't use what limited scientific knowledge we have now to discount something that many people including myself do hear.
You don't hear it. That's my whole point. You are deluding yourself. If you haven't done a blinded test, then you don't have any idea whether what you think you hear is there or not. This is illustrated by YEARS of research in the powers of suggestion and should be no surprise to you, but apparently you're not aware of this area of science either.