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post #5311 of 22837 Old 10-03-2009, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Speaker cables are bullocks. All that matters is resistance, just use a decently gauged copper wire for low resistance and you're good to go unless you're using extremely long speaker wire runs in which case you're probably not doing hifi, and have entirely different concerns, hence constant voltage systems.

What do you consider an extremely long run, and if the gauge were low enough, why would the length matter?

I've got about 40 feet from each of my speakers to the amp, and heard no appreciable difference between that and 8 feet.
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post #5312 of 22837 Old 10-03-2009, 09:56 PM
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I spent about twenty minutes in the Dynaudio booth today. Quite the high-end set-up; a prototype CD transport, which still had some teething issues, dual mono Wadia DACs going to an Octave pre (with separate PS) and Octave Jubilee monoblocks. Needless to say, it was pretty amazing sounding; one the best rooms I had been in all day. The Consequences have the ability to completley get out of the way when listening, you have no sense of their size when you listen to them, and they were very, very natural sounding. Not a hint of harshness, edge, or glare.

Here are some pix...you can see the dual DACs on the second shelf...pre is on the bottom shelf, it's power supply on the left. The big Jubilee is just barely visible on the left of the left speaker.


Powered Focus 110's, which were stunning in piano gloss black.


Interestingly, the first person I met today was another Dyne owner, who said that he has a pair of Special 25s, but is planning on getting a pair of Sapphires.

Chance favors the prepared mind.
-Louis Pasteur
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post #5313 of 22837 Old 10-04-2009, 11:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Dynero View Post

Chris, does this mean that when you chose your speaker cables you looked at a spec sheet and didn't do any listening tests?

Yes. The laws of physics are far more reliable than my interpretations of what I'm hearing. And there's really only one spec to look at, assuming it's just a decent copper wire, which is the gauge of the wire. And to make sure it's not a cheap POS zip cord with crappy insulation which interacts with the conductors and corrodes it, which in the end just turns them green but doesn't have a big impact anyway.

I have administered and done myself blinded listening tests of speaker cables, including >$20K transparent OpusMM speaker cables. And as predicted by basic physical laws, no audible difference, everyone failed the test.
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post #5314 of 22837 Old 10-04-2009, 11:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

What do you consider an extremely long run, and if the gauge were low enough, why would the length matter?

For greater distance obviously you need lower (larger) gauge wire for less resistance. And it also depends on the resistance of what you're driving, a low impedance speaker will draw more current, you'll need a lower (larger) gauge again for that. For particularly long runs, hundred feet or more there are also other concerns that begin to affect the high frequencies, capacitance etc.

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I've got about 40 feet from each of my speakers to the amp, and heard no appreciable difference between that and 8 feet.

That's not particularly far for most speakers assuming 4 or 8 ohms, as long as you're using 12 gauge or bigger. You'd probably be hard-pressed to measure a whole lot of difference there, let alone hear it.

this is a perennially good explanation:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable

He's fairly conservative with that table, that characterizes 5% loss, which is like .25dB and a far cry from audible. Even at just 1dB loss, the lengths would be several times longer again.
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post #5315 of 22837 Old 10-04-2009, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Yes. The laws of physics are far more reliable than my interpretations of what I'm hearing. And there's really only one spec to look at, assuming it's just a decent copper wire, which is the gauge of the wire. And to make sure it's not a cheap POS zip cord with crappy insulation which interacts with the conductors and corrodes it, which in the end just turns them green but doesn't have a big impact anyway.

So your saying all speaker cables sound alike? exactly alike? Down to transient response and timbre? Shielding from interference, purity of materials, construction technique, these all don't matter?

Your very sure about the laws of physics but what if we're not measuring the right ones or the complete ones? What if it's not just about gauge but something else that we haven't discerned yet?

Also in fairness, there have been listening tests where participants have been able to discern differences between cables.
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post #5316 of 22837 Old 10-04-2009, 11:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Dynero View Post

So your saying all speaker cables sound alike? exactly alike? Down to transient response and timbre? Shielding from interference, purity of materials, construction technique, these all don't matter?

Assuming equivalent resistance, yes. Absolutely.

Shielding from interference? Are you kidding? In speaker cables!? If that's a serious concern for you, you have FAR bigger issues than speaker cable shielding. Like as in leave the room immediately whatever is emitting THAT much noise might end up giving you cancer or something....

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Your very sure about the laws of physics but what if we're not measuring the right ones or the complete ones? What if it's not just about gauge but something else that we haven't discerned yet?

Electrical wiring is not rocket science here. The task at hand is conveyance of current from one place to another, of low frequencies and a (relatively) substantial amount of current over a relatively short distance. This is very simple to do.

And yes I am very sure about the laws of physics. They are the physical underpinnings of what I like to think of as REALITY!


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Also in fairness, there have been listening tests where participants have been able to discern differences between cables.

Blinded? Of the same gauge and length? Nope.

I didn't say that speaker cables don't make a difference. Again, they do. But the relevant considerations are rather straightforward. I could very VERY easily do a blind test that anyone could pass in hearing the differences between two different speaker cables if I had one large gauge short cable, and one extremely long small gauge cable. It would make a huge difference in freq response and loudness that anyone could hear right off.

But as long as you're not doing something stupid like that, and you have enough gauge, no it has no measurable let alone audible impact changing between different designs of the same thing.

I get the feeling that you don't really know much here about electricity...
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post #5317 of 22837 Old 10-04-2009, 12:58 PM
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assuming equivalent resistance, yes. Absolutely.

Really? You can prove that? How? By measurements? How do you know your measurements are correct? Or that your measuring the right thing? By blind testing? How do you know your hearing isn't subjective?

Shielding from interference? Are you kidding? In speaker cables!? If that's a serious concern for you, you have far bigger issues than speaker cable shielding. Like as in leave the room immediately whatever is emitting that much noise might end up giving you cancer or something....

Again? How do you know? Doesn't it stand to reason that a conductor would be able to pick up stray signals or static buildup? ( btw i'm only repeating what i've read about cable design? )


electrical wiring is not rocket science here. The task at hand is conveyance of current from one place to another, of low frequencies and a (relatively) substantial amount of current over a relatively short distance. This is very simple to do.

And yes i am very sure about the laws of physics. They are the physical underpinnings of what i like to think of as reality!

current isn't digital where it ends in absolutes correct? There are flows and ebbs, doesn't it stand to reason the physical medium it moves in has some effect on it?




Blinded? Of the same gauge and length? Nope.

I didn't say that speaker cables don't make a difference. Again, they do.

See:d

but the relevant considerations are rather straightforward. I could very very easily do a blind test that anyone could pass in hearing the differences between two different speaker cables if i had one large gauge short cable, and one extremely long small gauge cable. It would make a huge difference in freq response and loudness that anyone could hear right off.

Ahh why didn't you mention this sooner? Your earlier statement suggested there was no difference.

But as long as you're not doing something stupid like that, and you have enough gauge, no it has no measurable let alone audible impact changing between different designs of the same thing.
*sigh* i guess you haven't heard many cables, after all if your choosing from a spec sheet you would just choose one cable and be content that the laws of physics are giving you the best cable in the world, damn your ears and art, science is right.

I get the feeling that you don't really know much here about electricity...
Well i'm not an electrical engineer but i do trust my ears, sadly it's easy for scientific conceit to get in the way of an open mind :d

:d
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post #5318 of 22837 Old 10-04-2009, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

For greater distance obviously you need lower (larger) gauge wire for less resistance. And it also depends on the resistance of what you're driving, a low impedance speaker will draw more current, you'll need a lower (larger) gauge again for that. For particularly long runs, hundred feet or more there are also other concerns that begin to affect the high frequencies, capacitance etc.



That's not particularly far for most speakers assuming 4 or 8 ohms, as long as you're using 12 gauge or bigger. You'd probably be hard-pressed to measure a whole lot of difference there, let alone hear it.

this is a perennially good explanation:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable

He's fairly conservative with that table, that characterizes 5% loss, which is like .25dB and a far cry from audible. Even at just 1dB loss, the lengths would be several times longer again.

Got it. We're on the same page.
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post #5319 of 22837 Old 10-04-2009, 06:10 PM
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Dynero,
Some things just arent that complex, unless you are the owner of a company selling bs, then you try to make it as complex as you can to sell your "fix".
There just is no "art" needed in this area, thats just made up crap to charge a 1000% markup.
If you live near Chicago and dont mind putting some cash on the line say the cost of a pair of C1's I would be more then happy to set up a simple blind test.

Close your eyes and hear the truth!
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post #5320 of 22837 Old 10-04-2009, 06:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynero View Post

assuming equivalent resistance, yes. Absolutely.

Really? You can prove that? How? By measurements? How do you know your measurements are correct? Or that your measuring the right thing? By blind testing? How do you know your hearing isn't subjective?

Yes on both counts. You can scope the output of two speaker cables and measure any difference whatsoever and quantify that objectively. This is bolstered by basic physical laws which have been understood for quite a long time. This is basic science, there isn't much complicated in the task of speaker cabling.

And additionally, you can do blind testing to see whether you can hear any difference, which given the complete absence of measured differences, it's not surprising that they don't sound any different at all.


Quote:


Shielding from interference? Are you kidding? In speaker cables!? If that's a serious concern for you, you have far bigger issues than speaker cable shielding. Like as in leave the room immediately whatever is emitting that much noise might end up giving you cancer or something....

Again? How do you know? Doesn't it stand to reason that a conductor would be able to pick up stray signals or static buildup? ( btw i'm only repeating what i've read about cable design? )

Of course it picks up stray signals. And yes there is such a thing as cable self-noise when you physically manipulate a cable.

But again, apply the laws of basic physics: the voltages induced on an unshielded speaker cable are unbelievably small, tiny fractions of mV. Compared to the amplified power being driven through that cable to power a speaker, it is a completely irrelevant amount of noise. The amount of induced noise into a speaker cable to be audible is HUGE, and that is why speaker cable is almost never shielded, because speaker cable it used with amplified high-power signals. And because shielding a speaker cable is a stupid exercise and a waste of money: the amount of noise in an environment required to be of worry to a speaker cable would totally dwarf and shoot right through nearly any reasonable kind of shield you could construct in a speaker cable.

This is why people who read about "cable design" from nearly any boutique or "high-end" cable brand are so often mislead, because so many manufacturers invent totally ridiculous "physics" to justify their exorbitant prices, or they take aspects of cabling performance that CAN matter, and apply them to situations where they DON'T matter. For instance, I don't know how many times I've read about the skin effect in speaker cables. Is the skin effect real? Absolutely. Does it matter for speaker cables or analog audio cables? Of course not. But people are ignorant and don't know any better, and you know what they say about a fool and his money...

Quote:


electrical wiring is not rocket science here. The task at hand is conveyance of current from one place to another, of low frequencies and a (relatively) substantial amount of current over a relatively short distance. This is very simple to do.

And yes i am very sure about the laws of physics. They are the physical underpinnings of what i like to think of as reality!

current isn't digital where it ends in absolutes correct? There are flows and ebbs, doesn't it stand to reason the physical medium it moves in has some effect on it?

Of course it has an effect. That's without question. The question is whether those effects are even remotely audible. And the answer is no in most reasonable situations.


Quote:


Blinded? Of the same gauge and length? Nope.

I didn't say that speaker cables don't make a difference. Again, they do.

See:d

Obviously you didn't "see." Just because they CAN make a difference doesn't mean that they do in every situation.


Quote:


but the relevant considerations are rather straightforward. I could very very easily do a blind test that anyone could pass in hearing the differences between two different speaker cables if i had one large gauge short cable, and one extremely long small gauge cable. It would make a huge difference in freq response and loudness that anyone could hear right off.

Ahh why didn't you mention this sooner? Your earlier statement suggested there was no difference.

*sigh*


Quote:


But as long as you're not doing something stupid like that, and you have enough gauge, no it has no measurable let alone audible impact changing between different designs of the same thing.
*sigh* i guess you haven't heard many cables, after all if your choosing from a spec sheet you would just choose one cable and be content that the laws of physics are giving you the best cable in the world, damn your ears and art, science is right.

Yes. Science is right. I have absolutely no problem saying that, and I'm shocked that you might think otherwise. Art doesn't somehow make the laws of physics no longer apply. Are you missing the part where we are talking about the fundamental laws of physics?

Quote:


I get the feeling that you don't really know much here about electricity...
Well i'm not an electrical engineer but i do trust my ears, sadly it's easy for scientific conceit to get in the way of an open mind :d

:d

Well you're a fool then. Your ears are horribly unreliable instruments. That you would trust a subjective sensation over BASIC PHYSICAL LAW is the height of idiocy. It's a step worse than belief in unicorns and a flat earth, particularly how easy it is to fool the ear if you even knew anything about auditory sensation, which I'm sure you know even less about than you do about physics. It's the most ridiculous kind of idiocy and it is insulting that you are hiding that behind an appeal to "open-mindedness" which is total crap. That's not open-mindedness at all. That's stubborn-minded dogma, facts and reality be damned.
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post #5321 of 22837 Old 10-04-2009, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by audio0947 View Post

Dynero,
Some things just arent that complex, unless you are the owner of a company selling bs, then you try to make it as complex as you can to sell your "fix".
There just is no "art" needed in this area, thats just made up crap to charge a 1000% markup.
If you live near Chicago and dont mind putting some cash on the line say the cost of a pair of C1's I would be more then happy to set up a simple blind test.

No go, Im far far away from chicago Audio, thanks for your generous offer anyway
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post #5322 of 22837 Old 10-04-2009, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Yes on both counts. You can scope the output of two speaker cables and measure any difference whatsoever and quantify that objectively. This is bolstered by basic physical laws which have been understood for quite a long time. This is basic science, there isn't much complicated in the task of speaker cabling.

And additionally, you can do blind testing to see whether you can hear any difference, which given the complete absence of measured differences, it's not surprising that they don't sound any different at all.




Of course it picks up stray signals. And yes there is such a thing as cable self-noise when you physically manipulate a cable.

But again, apply the laws of basic physics: the voltages induced on an unshielded speaker cable are unbelievably small, tiny fractions of mV. Compared to the amplified power being driven through that cable to power a speaker, it is a completely irrelevant amount of noise. The amount of induced noise into a speaker cable to be audible is HUGE, and that is why speaker cable is almost never shielded, because speaker cable it used with amplified high-power signals. And because shielding a speaker cable is a stupid exercise and a waste of money: the amount of noise in an environment required to be of worry to a speaker cable would totally dwarf and shoot right through nearly any reasonable kind of shield you could construct in a speaker cable.

This is why people who read about "cable design" from nearly any boutique or "high-end" cable brand are so often mislead, because so many manufacturers invent totally ridiculous "physics" to justify their exorbitant prices, or they take aspects of cabling performance that CAN matter, and apply them to situations where they DON'T matter. For instance, I don't know how many times I've read about the skin effect in speaker cables. Is the skin effect real? Absolutely. Does it matter for speaker cables or analog audio cables? Of course not. But people are ignorant and don't know any better, and you know what they say about a fool and his money...



Of course it has an effect. That's without question. The question is whether those effects are even remotely audible. And the answer is no in most reasonable situations.




Obviously you didn't "see." Just because they CAN make a difference doesn't mean that they do in every situation.




*sigh*




Yes. Science is right. I have absolutely no problem saying that, and I'm shocked that you might think otherwise. Art doesn't somehow make the laws of physics no longer apply. Are you missing the part where we are talking about the fundamental laws of physics?


Well you're a fool then. Your ears are horribly unreliable instruments. That you would trust a subjective sensation over BASIC PHYSICAL LAW is the height of idiocy. It's a step worse than belief in unicorns and a flat earth, particularly how easy it is to fool the ear if you even knew anything about auditory sensation, which I'm sure you know even less about than you do about physics. It's the most ridiculous kind of idiocy and it is insulting that you are hiding that behind an appeal to "open-mindedness" which is total crap. That's not open-mindedness at all. That's stubborn-minded dogma, facts and reality be damned.

Really Chris, there is no need to get nasty simply because someone doesn't outright agree with you and your limited scientific vision ( and it is limited let me assure you ). Are you so insecure about your assertions that it can't stand a little scrutiny?

BTW I'm not saying the Laws of Physics don't apply, I'm just saying your not measuring enough.

When i talk about art and intuition I talk about the subtle differences that the human ear can discern but are beyond the scope of measuring instruments.

You seem to agree that there are subtle differences induced by cables with the points I've outlined above but are unwilling to give any validity since the differences are so 'miniscule" well bud, a lot of little "miniscules" can quickly add up to make a difference. Think of sound as an organic whole and not just bits and pieces and you may well have more fun

BTW what speaker cable do you suggest I listen to based on your spec sheet? I eagerly await your reply.
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post #5323 of 22837 Old 10-04-2009, 07:46 PM
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There is a very good article on Audioholics about cables. Purely objective, and what aspects of measurements are used to market the cables, many of which have no impact on the spectrum of human hearing. Even some dogs would have a hard time.
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post #5324 of 22837 Old 10-04-2009, 07:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynero View Post

Really Chris, there is no need to get nasty simply because someone doesn't outright agree with you and your limited scientific vision ( and it is limited let me assure you ). Are you so insecure about your assertions that it can't stand a little scrutiny?

Insecure?

Really?

I have actually participated in a blinded speaker cable test. Have you?

And second, they aren't my assertions. They are the laws developed by hundreds of years of scientific study about our physical universe. Through observation, measurement, experiment, and rigorous testing. These are the laws by which every electronic component in the audio system is designed and is the foundation of the computer and internet that you're using to post in this thread right now. The reason any of this WORKS is because of our scientific understanding of electricity.

Have you ever looked at a network cable? Do you have any idea how it functions or marveled at the engineering that goes into such a thing? Probably not. And yet far FAR smaller signals are transmitted across an unshielded interface, at FAR higher frequences than anything speaker wire could ever hope to convey. The reason this works is because of our understanding of electricity and basic physics.

So when you come in here and say that I am somehow insecure in my assertions about speaker cable, which is by far the simplest, least complicated, and dumbest object in the signal path that I can think of because I rely on fundamental scientific principles, it's simply laughable.


Quote:
BTW I'm not saying the Laws of Physics don't apply, I'm just saying your[sic] not measuring enough.

Such as? Is there something other than the electrical signal at the end of the cable that you would like to measure? If so, what?

What aspect of speaker cabling do you feel is audibly significant, isn't currently measured? Do you have any science, measurements, data, or tests to support your contention, or are you merely blowing smoke?

Quote:
When i talk about art and intuition I talk about the subtle differences that the human ear can discern but are beyond the scope of measuring instruments.

Such as?

Quote:
You seem to agree that there are subtle differences induced by cables with the points I've outlined above

No. You're having comprehension issues. Speaker cables at longer distances encounter obstacles which can become audible for reasons already discussed and explained elsewhere. However, this holds true for ALL speaker cables, and is based almost entirely on the resistance of the cabling.

If you have two 12 gauge wires of equal length hence with the same resistance, they will perform equivalently. Period. If you feel otherwise, you have the onus of proof to explain why and how they would differ because that flies in the face of simple science.

Quote:
but are unwilling to give any validity since the differences are so 'miniscule" well bud, a lot of little "miniscules" can quickly add up to make a difference. Think of sound as an organic whole and not just bits and pieces and you may well have more fun

It might be more fun, but it's also complete BS. It might be fun to believe in unicorns too, but that doesn't make it true.


Quote:
BTW what speaker cable do you suggest I listen to based on your spec sheet? I eagerly await your reply.

What is the impedance of your speakers, and what is the distance between the amplifier and your speakers?

The answer to that question tells you what gauge wire you require. You can then go to any cabling source and purchase the cheapest speaker wire of that gauge and you will be just fine. You might want to consider secondary considerations like aesthetics, jacket rating and type, strand count, etc for reasons that do not affect performance, but might affect workability, looks, pullability, fire code, etc that might be part of the consideration outside of sound quality.

If you disagree with this simple and direct approach that takes into account everything that physics informs us is relevant to this particular task, then what is YOUR approach? What else would matter in speaker cables? Since you clearly think that somehow physicists and electrical engineers can't figure out how to get rather simple current from one location to another nearby without horrendous and audible losses and are apparently insufficiently educated on the intricacies of electricity, please educate us as to what other aspects of speaker cabling are relevant. I'm curious. I'll start a batch of popcorn. It'll be great imaginative fun for the whole family!
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post #5325 of 22837 Old 10-04-2009, 08:33 PM
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Insecure?

I apologize that was uncalled for. But you could have been a little more civil yes?

Really?

I have actually participated in a blinded speaker cable test. Have you?

Even better, numerous listening sessions where i was relaxed and completely unconscious of having test parameters and where i picked up different sounds, qualities and tones without expecting it to pop up. Usually while my mind was occupied and just listening in the zone.

This to me is far more an accurate assesment of how i perceive cables than any AB listening test since it takes human bias out of the equation Usually when under scrutiny subjects do react differently than if they were left alone.



And second, they aren't my assertions. They are the laws developed by hundreds of years of scientific study about our physical universe. Through observation, measurement, experiment, and rigorous testing. These are the laws by which every electronic component in the audio system is designed and is the foundation of the computer and internet that you're using to post in this thread right now. The reason any of this WORKS is because of our scientific understanding of electricity.

Have you ever looked at a network cable? Do you have any idea how it functions or marveled at the engineering that goes into such a thing? Probably not. And yet far FAR smaller signals are transmitted across an unshielded interface, at FAR higher frequences than anything speaker wire could ever hope to convey. The reason this works is because of our understanding of electricity and basic physics.

A network cable is transmitting 1's and 0's but surely some network cables don't transmit data exactly alike and it these differences we perceive. Maybe a file transfer takes just a little bit more with one than another, sort of like jitter, but gets recombined the same way. who's to say?

Again, to repeat, you can sprout about

So when you come in here and say that I am somehow insecure in my assertions about speaker cable, which is by far the simplest, least complicated, and dumbest object in the signal path that I can think of because I rely on fundamental scientific principles, it's simply laughable.

Actually the tricky part with speaker cables for me is it's nearly at the tail end of the whole electrical to sound conversion. my thinking or theory is that just maybe it's at this juncture that things get sticky. All i can say is there are so many variables that even if you mastered all the laws that you know surely you don't know everything there is to know, and maybe it is in this realm that the differences come to pass.


Such as? Is there something other than the electrical signal at the end of the cable that you would like to measure? If so, what?

I'm already doing it, basic listening, if I hear a difference for the better all well and good.

What aspect of speaker cabling do you feel is audibly significant, isn't currently measured? Do you have any science, measurements, data, or tests to support your contention, or are you merely blowing smoke?

I haven't thought about it, I'm sure most of your measurements are consistent but gagain how do you measure tonality or soundstaging, truth of timbre and palpability.



Such as?



No. You're having comprehension issues. Speaker cables at longer distances encounter obstacles which can become audible for reasons already discussed and explained elsewhere. However, this holds true for ALL speaker cables, and is based almost entirely on the resistance of the cabling.

If you have two 12 gauge wires of equal length hence with the same resistance, they will perform equivalently. Period. If you feel otherwise, you have the onus of proof to explain why and how they would differ because that flies in the face of simple science.

Again define performance? the transmission of your test data parameters?
Again, what if your measuring the wrong thing? You mean to tell me that if you heard two cables and you preferred one sound over the other you would choose to install in your system the one that had the superior specs on paper?


It might be more fun, but it's also complete BS. It might be fun to believe in unicorns too, but that doesn't make it true.

You know people used to believe the Coelocanth was extinct, and that the mountain gorilla didn't exist, science couldn't prove it's existence because it didn't know where to look then get my drift, just because science said they didn't exist didn't make science right. Right now neither you nor I can prove cables dont make a difference but maybe in twenty years with more sophisticated tests there may well be a difference.





What is the impedance of your speakers, and what is the distance between the amplifier and your speakers?

Oh I'm happy with my speaker cables, I was just curious about yours. What system do you use btw> Amplifier and speakers? Did you also choose them by specs or listening? I'm not being snarky, it's an honest question, it just sounds snarky.

If you disagree with this simple and direct approach that takes into account everything that physics informs us is relevant to this particular task, then what is YOUR approach?

How about listening tests? Is that really so wrong?

What else would matter in speaker cables? Since you clearly think that somehow physicists and electrical engineers can't figure out how to get rather simple current from one location to another nearby without horrendous and audible losses and are apparently insufficiently educated on the intricacies of electricity, please educate us as to what other aspects of speaker cabling are relevant. I'm curious. I'll start a batch of popcorn. It'll be great imaginative fun for the whole family!

I certainly don't think that I have great respect for electrical engineers and even yourself since you obviously have knowledge in this field that far outstrips my own, my only contention is that you can't use what limited scientific knowledge we have now to discount something that many people including myself do hear.
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post #5326 of 22837 Old 10-04-2009, 09:14 PM
 
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Insecure?

I apologize that was uncalled for. But you could have been a little more civil yes?

Really?

I have actually participated in a blinded speaker cable test. Have you?

Even better, numerous listening sessions where i was relaxed and completely unconscious of having test parameters and where i picked up different sounds, qualities and tones without expecting it to pop up. Usually while my mind was occupied and just listening in the zone.

No, that isn't better at all. That's the whole point. If you knew what cabling you were listening to (in other words it wasn't a blinded test) then it is absolutely useless. This is REALLY basic placebo effect here. Unless you had no knowledge of what was what, and could consistently hear differences and correctly choose what's what, then it's a totally pointless test.

Quote:
This to me is far more an accurate assesment of how i perceive cables than any AB listening test since it takes human bias out of the equation Usually when under scrutiny subjects do react differently than if they were left alone.

But if you knew what the cables were, then the test is testing ONLY your preconceived biases, it doesn't test the cables at all.


Quote:
A network cable is transmitting 1's and 0's but surely some network cables don't transmit data exactly alike and it these differences we perceive.

No they don't, they transmit analog voltages just like speaker wire. Except the frequncies are much higher because it's a square wave of pulses, essentially.

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Maybe a file transfer takes just a little bit more with one than another, sort of like jitter, but gets recombined the same way. who's to say?

People who understand some basic EE say how it works. Poorer quality cabling causes more difficulty in recovering the intended values, packets get dropped, and the network slows. Jitter is not an issue, it isn't a real-time transfer, packet order doesn't even matter.


Quote:
Actually the tricky part with speaker cables for me is it's nearly at the tail end of the whole electrical to sound conversion.

So? So what? Why is this relevant? The task is an isolated one. Move these electrons (power) from the amp to the speaker, as unimpeded as possible. That's it. Extremely simple. To do that you need as much conductivity as possible. That's it. It's literally that simple for this particular and particularly simple task.

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my thinking or theory is that just maybe it's at this juncture that things get sticky. All i can say is there are so many variables that even if you mastered all the laws that you know surely you don't know everything there is to know, and maybe it is in this realm that the differences come to pass.

All you can say is that you don't really know anything about how speaker wires work except that it's just too complicated given your current level of knowledge. The prudent thing to do in this situation is to consult trusted and knowledgeable sources to learn about how speaker wires work so that you aren't in such a position of ignorance. Until that point, the other prudent thing to do is to say that you don't know, and refrain from holding an opinion on a technical topic that you have no business chiming in on if you don't understand the first thing about that topic.

But that's not what you did. You formed an opinion, despite the fact that you don't know anything about the topic. Not only that, you actually are here arguing about the topic and furthering your opinion despite the fact that you have absolutely no idea whether you are right or not because, as you say, there are just "so many variables" that you don't understand at all.


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I'm already doing it, basic listening, if I hear a difference for the better all well and good.

Was it blinded? Or not? If it wasn't blinded, you don't even know if you actually heard a difference or not. That's the entire point. You may just THINK that you heard a difference which in fact was not present at all. It is exceptionally easy to fool yourself or other people into experiencing things that are not at all occurring.

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I haven't thought about it, I'm sure most of your measurements are consistent but gagain how do you measure tonality or soundstaging, truth of timbre and palpability.

I don't know what you mean by tonality.

Soundstage is complicated, there are a lot of things that impact soundstage.

Truth of timbre is a meaningless term that cannot be addressed by measurement, nor "palpability" because those are subjective judgements about perception, not anything about the actual sound.


Quote:

Again define performance? the transmission of your test data parameters?
Again, what if your measuring the wrong thing? You mean to tell me that if you heard two cables and you preferred one sound over the other you would choose to install in your system the one that had the superior specs on paper?

I'm telling you that they WON'T sound the same. There has not been any test, EVER, in the history of planet earth, where equivalent speaker wire was found to be audibly different. Ever. In the history of mankind. Get it?

Quote:
You know people used to believe the Coelocanth was extinct, and that the mountain gorilla didn't exist, science couldn't prove it's existence because it didn't know where to look then get my drift, just because science said they didn't exist didn't make science right. Right now neither you nor I can prove cables dont make a difference but maybe in twenty years with more sophisticated tests there may well be a difference.

You are totally wrong about that. Right now you or I can ABSOLUTELY prove, beyond any doubt, that cables make a difference. We conduct a rigorous blinded test to determine whether differences between two cables are audible. If the listener can correctly identify which cable is which (because they are audibly different), then it is proven.

I have actually conducted and participated in such a test, administered to a very experienced audiophile, who held your exact position. He failed that test. I also failed the test.

And if you were to do such a listening test, I would be curious to know what happens. All it takes is a single person to pass such a blinded test, and it is definitive proof that there can be audible differences in speaker cables. It has never happened. In the absence of ANY data or evidence supporting your position, intellectual rigor demands that we proceed from the current evidence and the current state of understanding on the topic.

Quote:
Oh I'm happy with my speaker cables, I was just curious about yours. What system do you use btw> Amplifier and speakers? Did you also choose them by specs or listening? I'm not being snarky, it's an honest question, it just sounds snarky.

I have generic 12-gauge speaker cabling, each run is less than 30 feet, to all 7 speakers in my room. My subwoofer cable is broadcast grade Belden 1694a coax, which is completely overkill for the task, but I use that everywhere for analog video cabling (no longer in use, but the proper and absolute best cable for the task) and for analog audio (overkill, but again it is convenient and economical to use the same cabling for multiple things rather than various different cables which would require different tool sets and connectors, etc, as long as the cable is still fully appropriate for the task).

I use dynaudio main speakers, which I chose by listening. It is beyond doubt that differences in speakers are audible. That is confirmed by measurement, and by blind testing, and really by common sense.

I use a Denon 5308ci receiver which I have mixed opinions on. I bought that because of Audyssey PRO and dynamic EQ capability, video options, and the price I could get because I am in the industry.

My CD source is a Musical Fidelity A3.5, which I didn't listen to before I bought, but I have heard various dynaudio pairings with MF gear which I loved, so it was an opportunistic purchase that I've been very happy with.

Quote:
If you disagree with this simple and direct approach that takes into account everything that physics informs us is relevant to this particular task, then what is YOUR approach?

How about listening tests? Is that really so wrong?

If you are doing them sighted, yes absolutely. Sighted tests tell you nothing at all.

Quote:
I certainly don't think that I have great respect for electrical engineers and even yourself since you obviously have knowledge in this field that far outstrips my own, my only contention is that you can't use what limited scientific knowledge we have now to discount something that many people including myself do hear.

You don't hear it. That's my whole point. You are deluding yourself. If you haven't done a blinded test, then you don't have any idea whether what you think you hear is there or not. This is illustrated by YEARS of research in the powers of suggestion and should be no surprise to you, but apparently you're not aware of this area of science either.
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post #5327 of 22837 Old 10-04-2009, 09:27 PM
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You don't hear it. That's my whole point. You are deluding yourself. If you haven't done a blinded test, then you don't have any idea whether what you think you hear is there or not. This is illustrated by YEARS of research in the powers of suggestion and should be no surprise to you, but apparently you're not aware of this area of science either.[/quote]

Actually i have, we can talk about it till the cows come home but the fact remains that I have heard differences, BLINDED and totally unexpected.

I once walked into the main listening room of my dealer and observing thinking the sound had a very slight but lovely difference, the sound was warmer, more liquid and just sounded nicer to me, it turns out he had rep[laced a run of speaker cables with another ( Kubola Sosna Emotions, do yourself a favor and listen to them ).

Now this to me is an excellent listening test as well because it was totally unexpected and unprepared for, just plain differences in speaker cable sound.

And quite frankly i disagree with your AB assertion that it's the best arbiter for sound, speaker cable differences ARE subtle so the more relaxed you are the better and it's only when your not testing yourself that the differences come to fore.

Electrons are still affected by their medium, just because you can't measure them doesn't mean the differences aren't there.
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post #5328 of 22837 Old 10-04-2009, 09:35 PM
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This is a quote from Gene DellaSala

"Ok, let's play the devils advocate for the moment and assume what they said regarding wire causing audible distortions is true. What should we do with the internal wiring of our electronics gear and loudspeakers? The majority of these products are internally wired with stranded wire. Also, if this was the case, how come the majority of quality microphone cables are constructed with stranded wire and nobody has ever complained about those cables causing audible distortions? "

Here is the entire FAQ response.
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post #5329 of 22837 Old 10-04-2009, 10:03 PM
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[quote=ChrisWiggles;17299176]No, that isn't better at all. That's the whole point. If you knew what cabling you were listening to (in other words it wasn't a blinded test) then it is absolutely useless. This is REALLY basic placebo effect here. Unless you had no knowledge of what was what, and could consistently hear differences and correctly choose what's what, then it's a totally pointless test.

I don't think so, for example I have an xlo ultra 6 right now and a DH Labs q-10 and for some reason i prefer listening to the xlo, now the dh labs cable is even thicker ( at least it looks like it ) but i can discern very slight differences between the two and prefer the xlo. Now both these cables are old and I absolutely have no vested interest in choosing one over the other and yet I do, it is this reason that makes me question the proclamation that cables are all placebo, what's my motivve for liking the xlo more? None, i simply do.


So? So what? Why is this relevant? The task is an isolated one. Move these electrons (power) from the amp to the speaker, as unimpeded as possible. That's it. Extremely simple. To do that you need as much conductivity as possible. That's it. It's literally that simple for this particular and particularly simple task.

Surely conductivity is not exactly the same, and couldn't construction and insulation affect a cables conductivity.



All you can say is that you don't really know anything about how speaker wires work except that it's just too complicated given your current level of knowledge. The prudent thing to do in this situation is to consult trusted and knowledgeable sources to learn about how speaker wires work so that you aren't in such a position of ignorance. Until that point, the other prudent thing to do is to say that you don't know, and refrain from holding an opinion on a technical topic that you have no business chiming in on if you don't understand the first thing about that topic.

But that's not what you did. You formed an opinion, despite the fact that you don't know anything about the topic. Not only that, you actually are here arguing about the topic and furthering your opinion despite the fact that you have absolutely no idea whether you are right or not because, as you say, there are just "so many variables" that you don't understand at all.


If i never heard a difference i would simply let it go but i do hear a difference, on my own terms way way way before we even started discussing this. And don't think it's all marketing swayed either, i actually prefer a cheap run of speaker cable over a run of Van Den Hul cs122. I realize my knowledge of electrical engineering isn't as broad as your but if you heard what I've heard and observed perhaps you wouldn't be so quick to judge it outright.



Was it blinded? Or not? If it wasn't blinded, you don't even know if you actually heard a difference or not. That's the entire point. You may just THINK that you heard a difference which in fact was not present at all. It is exceptionally easy to fool yourself or other people into experiencing things that are not at all occurring.

Again for me a blinded listening test is on paper correct but in practice wrong, a test introduces an element of stress that interferes with our more sensitive cognitive abilities.



I don't know what you mean by tonality.

Soundstage is complicated, there are a lot of things that impact soundstage.

Truth of timbre is a meaningless term that cannot be addressed by measurement, nor "palpability" because those are subjective judgements about perception, not anything about the actual sound.

those "subjective" sounds are simply aspects of sound that are currently immeasurable by science but that can be appreciated by anyone, this is one of my key points. Your testing for the wrong things and it's incomplete.

Frankly i'm not surprised you don't know what i mean.




I'm telling you that they WON'T sound the same. There has not been any test, EVER, in the history of planet earth, where equivalent speaker wire was found to be audibly different. Ever. In the history of mankind. Get it?

Well of course, it's pretty much equivalent, I'm not expecting vast differences among the same, but not all speaker wires are the same right?



You are totally wrong about that. Right now you or I can ABSOLUTELY prove, beyond any doubt, that cables make a difference. We conduct a rigorous blinded test to determine whether differences between two cables are audible. If the listener can correctly identify which cable is which (because they are audibly different), then it is proven.

Wrong, again subjecting a test subject to a test changes the most natural response of the subject. If i were to show you pictures of naked women under a desirability test wouldn't your responses in a test environment be different than if you were simply at home?

I have actually conducted and participated in such a test, administered to a very experienced audiophile, who held your exact position. He failed that test. I also failed the test.

Again, testing a subject CHANGES a subject.
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post #5330 of 22837 Old 10-05-2009, 07:18 AM
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Can we get back to dicussing Dynaudio Speakers in this thread?

This cable dicussion belongs in another thread in a different section of the Forum.

Frankly, it is a worn out subject in the Forum as most Forum members have their own opinion that is not likely to be swayed by endless discussion and posturing between members.

Thank you.

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How 'bout just one more

If I may bring this down to the consumer level just a bit more in the context of someone like me... Why then, if the OCOS speaker cables are truly best for Dynaudio, why are they not easy to get? Maybe they are but I only hear them mentioned on this thread every once in a while and never run across any used either. Just cant seem to find them... Are they only attainable form a Dyn dealer if brought up?

Maybe Dynaudio dealers should campaign for them more instead of other cables they may deal in?

Would love to try a pair next to my Kimber 8TC's.

EDIT: Oh, I seemed to of miss clicked and missed a whole page of cable excitement...
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post #5332 of 22837 Old 10-05-2009, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jriggy View Post

How 'bout just one more

If I may bring this down to the consumer level just a bit more in the context of someone like me... Why then, if the OCOS speaker cables are truly best for Dynaudio, why are they not easy to get? Maybe they are but I only hear them mentioned on this thread every once in a while and never run across any used either. Just cant seem to find them... Are they only attainable form a Dyn dealer if brought up?

Maybe Dynaudio dealers should campaign for them more instead of other cables they may deal in?

Would love to try a pair next to my Kimber 8TC's.

EDIT: Oh, I seemed to of miss clicked and missed a whole page of cable excitement...

Never heard Ocos, had the opportunity to try it before but was auditioning a pair of interconnects and thought at the time introducing it would skew the evaluation, i let it go and someone else got it.
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post #5333 of 22837 Old 10-05-2009, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by jriggy View Post

How 'bout just one more

If I may bring this down to the consumer level just a bit more in the context of someone like me... Why then, if the OCOS speaker cables are truly best for Dynaudio, why are they not easy to get? Maybe they are but I only hear them mentioned on this thread every once in a while and never run across any used either. Just cant seem to find them... Are they only attainable form a Dyn dealer if brought up?

Maybe Dynaudio dealers should campaign for them more instead of other cables they may deal in?

Would love to try a pair next to my Kimber 8TC's.

EDIT: Oh, I seemed to of miss clicked and missed a whole page of cable excitement...


Unfortunately Ocos had been distributed by another company in North America for a decade and not much was done with it. Ocos is a Dynaudio product and because of that, we finally took the distribution back over this year and after some minor changes to the packaging and connectors, we put quite a bit of Ocos out in the field for evaluation with Dynaudio dealers. The results were very positive and now we are in the process of signing many Dynaudio dealers as Ocos dealers. By the way, the Consequence are wires internally with Ocos.

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post #5334 of 22837 Old 10-05-2009, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by cyclonemike View Post

can we get back to dicussing dynaudio speakers in this thread?

This cable dicussion belongs in another thread in a different section of the forum.

Frankly, it is a worn out subject in the forum as most forum members have their own opinion that is not likely to be swayed by endless discussion and posturing between members.

Thank you.

+1

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post #5335 of 22837 Old 10-05-2009, 11:16 AM
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Here are the pics of the theater room setup you guys were asking for... sorry for the delay... and if any of you can make it we will have the Masters and Sapphires for all to hear on Octave gear and for those who cannot we will be putting it on Youtube... i thought kinda a cool idea
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...2/DSC02027.jpg
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...2/DSC02028.jpg
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...2/DSC02029.jpg
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...2/DSC02030.jpg
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...2/DSC02031.jpg
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...2/DSC02032.jpg
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...2/DSC02033.jpg

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Originally Posted by Dynero View Post

Electrons are still affected by their medium, just because you can't measure them doesn't mean the differences aren't there.


It's like talking to a child.

You CAN measure them. To a degree of precision that DWARFS what you could ever POSSIBLY hear. That means that there won't be any differences. Period.

And lastly, I find it pretty interesting that you never did answer my question about what, beyond the aspects of speaker cabling performance I mentioned and referenced you to, could possibly affect the sound. You have absolutely no response to that question, yet you still, out of complete and utter ignorance, think that there must be some mystical forces at work that somehow evade measurement, yet are still significant enough to become audible.

This is like 5th grade science here, and I'm talking to a brick wall.
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post #5337 of 22837 Old 10-05-2009, 03:27 PM
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I agree that you all are beating a dead horse with the cables discussion, but I couldn't resist pointing out that Nordost claims they have a new way of measuring how cables affect a system. Stereophile briefly mentioned this in their Rocky Mtn show coverage.
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I agree that you all are beating a dead horse with the cables discussion, but I couldn't resist pointing out that Nordost claims they have a new way of measuring how cables affect a system. Stereophile briefly mentioned this in their Rocky Mtn show coverage.

I saw that as well VT Skier but i thought i would take the high road and let it slide but the new measurements are exactly what i was referencing earlier when I said maybe in twenty years we would have better ways of measuring instead of our limited means right now
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post #5339 of 22837 Old 10-05-2009, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dynlunatic View Post

Unfortunately Ocos had been distributed by another company in North America for a decade and not much was done with it. Ocos is a Dynaudio product and because of that, we finally took the distribution back over this year and after some minor changes to the packaging and connectors, we put quite a bit of Ocos out in the field for evaluation with Dynaudio dealers. The results were very positive and now we are in the process of signing many Dynaudio dealers as Ocos dealers. By the way, the Consequence are wires internally with Ocos.

There is only one model of OCOS? Are there interconnects as well.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VT Skier View Post

I agree that you all are beating a dead horse with the cables discussion, but I couldn't resist pointing out that Nordost claims they have a new way of measuring how cables affect a system. Stereophile briefly mentioned this in their Rocky Mtn show coverage.

Nordost doesn't even know what an electron is. I'm sure it's the same tired bologna that they and so many other "manufacturers" have been peddling for years.

I'm sure that's why cable elevators are necessary, so the electrons don't have to travel as much uphill, which apparently is pretty hard for electrons which I'm sure will be pretty groundbreaking news to physicists... If true, they might even win a Nobel or something for upending our entire understanding of physical particles.
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