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post #14341 of 22885 Old 01-16-2012, 07:07 PM
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Thanks for the great methodology for dialling in speakers, makes complete sense to follow a process. I'm slightly limited by my distance from listening position to speakers which is not large but have a lot of width to play with. I'll have a play as per your instructions and see how it goes.

Regarding central image I'm just not getting that 'snap' to the centre, it just seems vague somehow, and yes guilty here on the TV ...

My better half will think I'm a lunatic moving these around inch by inch

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post #14342 of 22885 Old 01-16-2012, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Borderdog View Post

I went 0-4 this weekend

Picked against the Ravens? And afer all the nice things I said.

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post #14343 of 22885 Old 01-16-2012, 09:39 PM
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When reading people's experiences about placement it makes me think I really must have ears of wood. Because seriously, even with all the articles I've read and even common senses pointing to the contrary, I've never found much difference in sound with placement adjustment.

Center image? Heck, it's always been strong and clear no matter where or how I've put my speakers. It's one very big reason why I've never seen any need whatsoever for a center channel in HT. And having a TV between the speakers never did any harm to center imaging either.

Bass? Well, yeah, I can see some effect between absolute exteremes, but for example I've had my C1s 20" off the back wall (which if I recall was roughly the official recommendation) when I had them at a longer listening distance in my bedroom, and now they are more like 5-7" off the back wall (now they do have plenty of distance to the side walls though, before in the bedroom that was 20" too) in the living room. In both cases the bass output is the same - strong, but in the way it should be, and not not overpowering, bloated or such. And mind you, this is a concrete-walled apartment, so you'd think the distance to a concrete wall would change things.

So basically there's been three placements (and in each placement, at least a few different toe-ins)... one being a very near-field setup. The sound in all its aspects has been essentially the same and very enjoyable in each case, without any tweaking needed. I don't know what to make of that, really. Compared to other people's experiences it makes no sense, so there has to be something really wrong with my hearing

In the new apartment - about two weeks to go! - there should be more space to play around with as far as placement, but honestly I fully expect the trend to continue.
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post #14344 of 22885 Old 01-17-2012, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by tvih View Post

When reading people's experiences about placement it makes me think I really must have ears of wood. Because seriously, even with all the articles I've read and even common senses pointing to the contrary, I've never found much difference in sound with placement adjustment.

Center image? Heck, it's always been strong and clear no matter where or how I've put my speakers. It's one very big reason why I've never seen any need whatsoever for a center channel in HT. And having a TV between the speakers never did any harm to center imaging either.

Bass? Well, yeah, I can see some effect between absolute exteremes, but for example I've had my C1s 20" off the back wall (which if I recall was roughly the official recommendation) when I had them at a longer listening distance in my bedroom, and now they are more like 5-7" off the back wall (now they do have plenty of distance to the side walls though, before in the bedroom that was 20" too) in the living room. In both cases the bass output is the same - strong, but in the way it should be, and not not overpowering, bloated or such. And mind you, this is a concrete-walled apartment, so you'd think the distance to a concrete wall would change things.

So basically there's been three placements (and in each placement, at least a few different toe-ins)... one being a very near-field setup. The sound in all its aspects has been essentially the same and very enjoyable in each case, without any tweaking needed. I don't know what to make of that, really. Compared to other people's experiences it makes no sense, so there has to be something really wrong with my hearing

In the new apartment - about two weeks to go! - there should be more space to play around with as far as placement, but honestly I fully expect the trend to continue.

tvih,

You remind me of the blind fellow who loves watching porn flicks with the soundtrack turned off.
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post #14345 of 22885 Old 01-17-2012, 05:44 AM
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You remind me of the blind fellow who loves watching porn flicks with the soundtrack turned off.

Maybe the fellow just has an awesome imagination
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post #14346 of 22885 Old 01-17-2012, 05:57 AM
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Now boys; I'm not sure a C1...placed "incorrectly" or not...will ever sound, within the bounds of reason, anything but "good". So I can see tvih...with his ears of wood and such...saying things have always sounded "fine" to him.

That being said...better is better, and I don't think there's any question that Borderdog's suggestions for placement, treatment, etc...would improve most systems.

I hope to employ them myself someday. (hey...I have all materials and such, but a minor...but painful...procedure has set me back recently).

CD

Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything. -Plato
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post #14347 of 22885 Old 01-17-2012, 08:37 AM
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Neil,
1100 euro for a 1 year old pair is quite incredible, new price is almost 3 times higher!

Borderdog, I completely agree with your statements about room placement. It's indeed very important and small changes in placement can make a lot of difference.

Nick, those s25's and s1.4's you auditioned must have been in a bad room because they certainly don't lack bass at all. Actually, I never heard a dynaudio speaker that lacked bass. It's one of their strong points IMO.
Good speakers in a bad room sound worse than average speakers in a good room.

Like I said before, I had the chanche to either go for a pair of second hand S25's or a new pair S1.4's. I decided to go for the contours, because I feel they sound more balanced at low volumes, which is important to me. The s25 needs more volume to shine IMO.
Great speakers though and the esotar tweeter is amazing, but something just didn't feel right to me.

For my taste the C1 is dynaudios best standmount speaker (and I haven't even heard the mkII). Highly personal opinion ofcourse

CD, hopefully everything's going well for you now.
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post #14348 of 22885 Old 01-17-2012, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

That being said...better is better, and I don't think there's any question that Borderdog's suggestions for placement, treatment, etc...would improve most systems.

Oh, no doubt about benefits of treatments or inherently better acoustics of a room. The flutter echo here is so prominent, that listening to something like metal music - in other words, "busy music" - ends up very fatiguing very quickly, which is why I have preferred simpler music ever since I left my parents' "acoustically transparent" (it was about soundproof as a house made of hay) wooden house years ago.

Based on my brief visit to the new apartment it's unclear how well I could treat the living room where I'm planning to set up the primary HT system, though. The other side wall will be problematic, because it just might have a door at the place where the acoustic panel should go. Back wall will probably be some ways away from the listening position, so with my expertise it is unclear how much treatments there would help. Front wall... windows, unfortunately. So I guess options are limited once again
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post #14349 of 22885 Old 01-17-2012, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by jochenb View Post

Neil,
1100 euro for a 1 year old pair is quite incredible, new price is almost 3 times higher!

Borderdog, I completely agree with your statements about room placement. It's indeed very important and small changes in placement can make a lot of difference.

Nick, those s25's and s1.4's you auditioned must have been in a bad room because they certainly don't lack bass at all. Actually, I never heard a dynaudio speaker that lacked bass. It's one of their strong points IMO.
Good speakers in a bad room sound worse than average speakers in a good room.

Like I said before, I had the chanche to either go for a pair of second hand S25's or a new pair S1.4's. I decided to go for the contours, because I feel they sound more balanced at low volumes, which is important to me. The s25 needs more volume to shine IMO.
Great speakers though and the esotar tweeter is amazing, but something just didn't feel right to me.

For my taste the C1 is dynaudios best standmount speaker (and I haven't even heard the mkII). Highly personal opinion ofcourse

CD, hopefully everything's going well for you now.

jochenb, I was totally wrong in trying to relay my first impressions of the s1.4s and the 25's. The amount of bass that both speakers produce is incredible. I was just a little taken back by the low end especially on the 1.4s not being as tight as I had imagined that it would be. Never the less the lows were definitely present. When going through different cd's, even the dealer walked in during one track and said that he totally agreed and actually was as shocked as I was to hear it. But since that initial demo, I returned to listen again on different equipment in a different room and I heard a dramatic difference in both bass quality and overall quality. Especially with the 25's. So much so that I wanted to buy them but my wife shot me down because I wouldn't be able to get matching center. Hey I bought and own Focus 140's because I was blown away by the low end that they produce. And I totally agree that 1.4's and Special 25's are a huge upgrade from them in every way,(especially the bass output).
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post #14350 of 22885 Old 01-17-2012, 10:52 AM
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Back from CES late last night after 9 days! What a spectacular show and the new XEO product was a mind blowing success. I look forward to fielding any comments(positive/negative) regarding the new wireless products.

Remember, it is all about the music not the sound!
Mick Tillman
Dynaudio N/A-distributors of Dynaudio, Octave, Theory and Application.
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post #14351 of 22885 Old 01-17-2012, 03:46 PM
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Just curious, does Dyn build the amps in the Xeo and in its other active speakers?
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post #14352 of 22885 Old 01-17-2012, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by dynlunatic View Post

Back from CES late last night after 9 days! What a spectacular show and the new XEO product was a mind blowing success. I look forward to fielding any comments(positive/negative) regarding the new wireless products.

To what speaker line does the XEO best compare? Are they comparable with the Xcites or closer to the Focus?
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post #14353 of 22885 Old 01-17-2012, 05:32 PM
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^^^Two great questions.

CD

Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything. -Plato
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post #14354 of 22885 Old 01-17-2012, 10:25 PM
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Borderdog, what kind of stand is that for your equipment?
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post #14355 of 22885 Old 01-17-2012, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Now boys; I'm not sure a C1...placed "incorrectly" or not...will ever sound, within the bounds of reason, anything but "good". So I can see tvih...with his ears of wood and such...saying things have always sounded "fine" to him.

That being said...better is better, and I don't think there's any question that Borderdog's suggestions for placement, treatment, etc...would improve most systems.

I hope to employ them myself someday. (hey...I have all materials and such, but a minor...but painful...procedure has set me back recently).

CD

This was very good reading agreed on imaging and speaker placement. Would love to hear what fellow Dynaudio friends think about electronics and imaging.

I have a small room. C1s and a 55inch display between speakers. I have moved my speakers an inch here and there. Pulled them forward etc. Never got that imaging with vocals floating in center like during audition.

Changed to a new pre-pro 10 months ago with a great analog section and I got all I ever wanted in imaging but until the new pre was missing.

So, how do electronics do this? This is not a I got a new cable and the sound changed but with new pre and no other change in room my imaging rocks.

The pre/pro has done more than an inch here an inch there a few inches forward ever did to my C1s and imaging.

Rick

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post #14356 of 22885 Old 01-18-2012, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr.SoftDome View Post

This was very good reading agreed on imaging and speaker placement. Would love to hear what fellow Dynaudio friends think about electronics and imaging.

I have a small room. C1s and a 55inch display between speakers. I have moved my speakers an inch here and there. Pulled them forward etc. Never got that imaging with vocals floating in center like during audition.

Changed to a new pre-pro 10 months ago with a great analog section and I got all I ever wanted in imaging but until the new pre was missing.

So, how do electronics do this? This is not a I got a new cable and the sound changed but with new pre and no other change in room my imaging rocks.

The pre/pro has done more than an inch here an inch there a few inches forward ever did to my C1s and imaging.

Rick

Uh-oh; I imagine those will be fightin' words to some.

CD

Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything. -Plato
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post #14357 of 22885 Old 01-18-2012, 05:23 AM
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Uh-oh; I imagine those will be fightin' words to some.

CD

Not to me. A better Preamp and PSU for it are my next upgrade.

Chances are the new preamp lowered the noise floor, providing more detail, and allowed the imaging to become more well defined. My $0.02

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post #14358 of 22885 Old 01-18-2012, 05:33 AM
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Not to me. A better Preamp and PSU for it are my next upgrade.

Chances are the new preamp lowered the noise floor, providing more detail, and allowed the imaging to become more well defined. My $0.02

You get no argument from me; and I don't want to stir the pot.

CD

Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything. -Plato
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post #14359 of 22885 Old 01-18-2012, 05:52 AM
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You get no argument from me; and I don't want to stir the pot.

CD

CD, your nose si growing longer.
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post #14360 of 22885 Old 01-18-2012, 06:19 AM
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CD, your nose si growing longer.

Not at all; I don't have a horse in this race. It's just most who believe in placement and treatments, et al...usually preach it'll do more for your sound than any component upgrade (maybe short of new speakers).

Mister Softie's experience just flies in the face of that, is all.

CD

Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything. -Plato
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post #14361 of 22885 Old 01-18-2012, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Not at all; I don't have a horse in this race. It's just most who believe in placement and treatments, et al...usually preach it'll do more for your sound than any component upgrade (maybe short of new speakers).

Mister Softie's experience just flies in the face of that, is all.

CD

It's really about synergy and how it all comes together as a whole. I don't think one can make hard and fast rules about what is a better improvement than the other. Room treatments may solve problems for some, where improving source may be a better choice for some others.

I do without room treatments because I think they look awful and don't want them spoiling the look of the room. I've never seen room treatments that didn't look like room treatments, or bad art/decor as an attempt to make them not look like room treatments.

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post #14362 of 22885 Old 01-18-2012, 08:22 AM
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Good components in a great room trumps great components in a mediocre room.
Great components in a great room trumps all.
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post #14363 of 22885 Old 01-18-2012, 08:26 AM
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Good components in a great room trumps great components in a mediocre room.
Great components in a great room trumps all.

Sometimes you just can't have a great room.

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post #14364 of 22885 Old 01-18-2012, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by VT Skier View Post

Just curious, does Dyn build the amps in the Xeo and in its other active speakers?

The amps in the pro products are built for Dynaudio exclusively however we developed the DSP that is used in the Dynaudio Acoustics Air series which has led to the developement of the DSP that is being used in the new XEO product. The amp in the XEO is a digital amplifier with DSP in the electronic crossover so the digital signal that is fed into the transmitter and sent digitally wirelessly to the speakers is kept digital all the way to the drive units. The analog inputs on the transmitter are converted to digital in the transmitter box and then sent digitally to the speakers.

Remember, it is all about the music not the sound!
Mick Tillman
Dynaudio N/A-distributors of Dynaudio, Octave, Theory and Application.
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post #14365 of 22885 Old 01-18-2012, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by EnCar View Post

To what speaker line does the XEO best compare? Are they comparable with the Xcites or closer to the Focus?

The XEO is a tremendous advancement in wireless audio and in fact it is absolutely the best wireless audio on the market with the added ability to do many rooms of audio. The two models are based on the passive X12 and X32 which are both amazing in their own right however not to the level of the new Focus in driver technology. Think of the XEO as an amazing sounding high performance solution to many issues but not a product meant to replace a pair of Focus 160's and good quality electronics.

Remember, it is all about the music not the sound!
Mick Tillman
Dynaudio N/A-distributors of Dynaudio, Octave, Theory and Application.
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post #14366 of 22885 Old 01-18-2012, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by dynlunatic View Post

The XEO is a tremendous advancement in wireless audio and in fact it is absolutely the best wireless audio on the market with the added ability to do many rooms of audio. The two models are based on the passive X12 and X32 which are both amazing in their own right however not to the level of the new Focus in driver technology. Think of the XEO as an amazing sounding high performance solution to many issues but not a product meant to replace a pair of Focus 160's and good quality electronics.

That's what I've been saying all along.

The people...and I don't just necessarily mean in here...who are looking at it as a replacement for their 2-channel rig, are missing the point.

Dyn wants you to keep and/or keep buying Focus, Contour, Conidence line speakers for your main system; they just want you to put these everywhere else in the house!

CD

Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything. -Plato
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post #14367 of 22885 Old 01-18-2012, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by dynlunatic View Post

The XEO is a tremendous advancement in wireless audio and in fact it is absolutely the best wireless audio on the market with the added ability to do many rooms of audio. The two models are based on the passive X12 and X32 which are both amazing in their own right however not to the level of the new Focus in driver technology. Think of the XEO as an amazing sounding high performance solution to many issues but not a product meant to replace a pair of Focus 160's and good quality electronics.

Mick,

I don't know if this has been asked here yet but is it possible to integrate the XEO into a multichannel home theater?
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post #14368 of 22885 Old 01-18-2012, 12:32 PM
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I don't know if this has been asked here yet but is it possible to integrate the XEO into a multichannel home theater?

I guess the main question in that regard is how do more than one transmitter interact with each other? Let's say you go for a 4-speaker all-Xeo setup, that'd mean you need two transmitters. As long as they don't cause any mixups, it'll work fine using AVR pre-outs and such. I assume it shouldn't be a problem, but who knows. If multiple transmitters in a vicinity was a problem, it could cause nasty issues like if you had multiple wireless Dyn fans in an apartment flat I do think this would've been accounted for though.
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post #14369 of 22885 Old 01-18-2012, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by tvih View Post

I guess the main question in that regard is how do more than one transmitter interact with each other? Let's say you go for a 4-speaker all-Xeo setup, that'd mean you need two transmitters. As long as they don't cause any mixups, it'll work fine using AVR pre-outs and such. I assume it shouldn't be a problem, but who knows. If multiple transmitters in a vicinity was a problem, it could cause nasty issues like if you had multiple wireless Dyn fans in an apartment flat I do think this would've been accounted for though.

My thought would be one setup as room one and another as room two.

Dynaudio Focus 260s, Focus 210C, DM 2/6, Hsu VTF2 MK4, Oppo BDP-103,
Naim Nait XS-2, Jolida FX Tube DAC, Integra DTR-40.2, 55" Panasonic Plasma
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post #14370 of 22885 Old 01-18-2012, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by callas01 View Post

My thought would be one setup as room one and another as room two.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking (but forgot to write to my previous reply apparently). However if you're technically limited to 3 pairs that way within the range of a transmitter (which is said to be 50-100m if I recall) it could theoretically lead to problems in the admittedly very unlikely event of more than one owner within that range Also there's the question of how exactly the pairing process is done and therefore how easy it is to pair the speakers to one transmitter instead of another. The manual isn't available on the Dyn website yet so can't look from there.
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