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post #23671 of 23687 Old Today, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Garman View Post
.............. Doesn't matter anyway we are all screwed anyway, older you get the hearing, eyesight everything starts to go, might as well start listening to Bose! LOL jk!
So true, but as I posted earlier from Dynaudio’s Facebook statistics

Most engaged insights:
  • City Hong Kong, Hong Kong
  • Age group 25-34 years old

So hopefully that's an indicator of a lot of up and coming audiophiles......at least in China!!

Robert
Toronto, Ontario
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post #23672 of 23687 Old Today, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by rob80b View Post
So true, but as I posted earlier from Dynaudio’s Facebook statistics

Most engaged insights:
  • City Hong Kong, Hong Kong
  • Age group 25-34 years old

So hopefully that's an indicator of a lot of up and coming audiophiles......at least in China!!
Don't forget they are mostly male because of the governmental law put into place....
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post #23673 of 23687 Old Today, 09:21 AM
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Guys, forgive me for my ignorance but I see there is a plethora, 100s if not 1000s of Youtube videos on folk’s audio systems, from speakers, amps turntables etc….and the viewers commenting on how fabulous they sound.
Question…when auditioning audio equipment on line should I just rely on my computer speakers or a good set of headphones before making a purchasing decision?
Also is it best to play the youtube video in the designated room that will host the new equipment?

Obviously I’m being sarcastic here, but seriously I don’t get it. Yes some “look” great, but how do they sound......... as there are a lot of comments following the videos.... “ great sounding system”.. “amazing mid-range” ,“that bass is to die for” ???…I’m still scratching my head.
Maybe I need another coffee?
It's not that simple IMO. Your assertion seems to be that hearing a high end system by viewing a youtube video with headphones conveys zero information about how that high end system sounds and only conveys information about how your headphones sound. That is simply not true. If I shoot a video of a recording artist playing live and you watch it on youtube with your headphones, do you get any sense of what it sounded like to be there? Any sense at all? Is it zero? Not in my opinion. In fact, I'd say you get a very good sense of what it sounds like to be at the event where the video was shot. Yes, the fact that you are watching a video and listening with your headphones does impact the sound to some degree, but you still hear much of what the original sound was like. In fact, the more accurate your headphones, the better you can hear what it was like to be there. The same is true when you watch a video of a high end system. You do in fact get a lot of aural information that conveys a sense of what that system sounds like. It is imperfect, no doubt at all and a live demo is far superior. But it is not worthless by any stretch of the imagination.

There are many youtube videos of guitar retailers demoing guitars. Would you say that practice is worthless since all you are really hearing is your own headphones?

Why can't we list equipment in our signature? How odd...
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post #23674 of 23687 Old Today, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by amatuerholic View Post
At those prices, I'd rather buy used C1s a Hegel H200 or Naim XS or something similar.
But you haven't heard them yet. My gut reaction is the same as yours, however, there IS something to be said for active speakers being perfectly mated to the amps and DSP doing a far better job with crossover duties and room correction. They might be amazing.
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post #23675 of 23687 Old Today, 09:33 AM
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Oh, I didn't mean that I disagreed with you; in fact, I thought I used the phrase "spot on"? That means accurate

So...you would rank them 260, followed closely by the 23s; and the Spendor, pulling up a distant 3rd?
Hmmm. Yes, in that order. Not sure about the distance between. If the 260s are a 9/10...then perhaps the 23s a 7/10 and the D7s a 6/10.

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Listen...I think both Jax and I, who are both BIG PMC fans; have said...Dyns...especially compared to PMC...offer great value! I would think the 260, probably falls somewhere between the 24 (as you said, at 7k) and the 26 (at 11k). So...the $4900 260, is a great buy.
I think you're right. I would need to get to the 24/26 to get the same comprehensive enjoyment ... plus the PMC sweetness. That "sweetness" counts for a lot (see rating above) but there is a price point where that is being heard through a more complete package. The 260s are simply more complete at a lower price point.

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But I also stand by my assertion...that comparing the speakers, is apples and oranges a bit. In fact...I've said, exactly what your colorful chart confirms: Dyns are big bass/big highs speakers.
Perhaps the 260s. I wouldn't paint them ALL that way. The mids are there with the 260s...and every important...but the PMCs particularly shine here...that sweetness I mentioned before. But what is this if the rest of the package is lacking?

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Some aren't looking for that; and by comparison...when I put my 1.3 mk IIs, in the main system...where the FACT 3s usually are (hardly a fair fight, I realize). They sounded very bass-heavy, to the point of being almost out of balance.
I could see having fun perhaps matching a PMC bookshelf with a really nice sub to see what comes out of that. I think a 21 or 22 with a well-matched sub would be almost better than the 23s at least. Probably even the 24s. Then compare the 21/22+sub setup with 26 or Fact 8 alone.

Quote:
I haven't heard the new Focus myself; but I think Jax has confirmed...that "new" Dyn sound, probably compares most favorably; for guys that like PMC.
Give them a try!

Current HiFi: Dynaudio Focus 260 | Meridian Direct DAC | NAIM XS 2 (2013)
Past HiFi: Dynaudio Excite X16 | Dynaudio Focus 160 | Harman Kardon HK3490
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post #23676 of 23687 Old Today, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jaxwired View Post
But you haven't heard them yet. My gut reaction is the same as yours, however, there IS something to be said for active speakers being perfectly mated to the amps and DSP doing a far better job with crossover duties and room correction. They might be amazing.
We have one in-person XD review here. And I know one person has heard them over at PinkFishMedia. Same person? Dunnno. But both offer rave reviews.

I still have my questions about warranty, long-term reliability, connectivity issues (ala Xeo), and desire of audiophiles at this price point to want to buy into an active system. Of course resale is another issue. See all the Xeos on A-gon lately?

Current HiFi: Dynaudio Focus 260 | Meridian Direct DAC | NAIM XS 2 (2013)
Past HiFi: Dynaudio Excite X16 | Dynaudio Focus 160 | Harman Kardon HK3490
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post #23677 of 23687 Old Today, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jaxwired View Post
It's not that simple IMO. Your assertion seems to be that hearing a high end system by viewing a youtube video with headphones conveys zero information about how that high end system sounds and only conveys information about how your headphones sound. That is simply not true. If I shoot a video of a recording artist playing live and you watch it on youtube with your headphones, do you get any sense of what it sounded like to be there? Any sense at all? Is it zero? Not in my opinion. In fact, I'd say you get a very good sense of what it sounds like to be at the event where the video was shot. Yes, the fact that you are watching a video and listening with your headphones does impact the sound to some degree, but you still hear much of what the original sound was like. In fact, the more accurate your headphones, the better you can hear what it was like to be there. The same is true when you watch a video of a high end system. You do in fact get a lot of aural information that conveys a sense of what that system sounds like. It is imperfect, no doubt at all and a live demo is far superior. But it is not worthless by any stretch of the imagination.

There are many youtube videos of guitar retailers demoing guitars. Would you say that practice is worthless since all you are really hearing is your own headphones?
Hey Jaxwired

No ......youtube has been invaluable for discovering new artists and I always like checking out your offerings,...my (sarcastic) questioning concerned those commenting on the quality of sound, as good as it is, "from the speakers in the videos" when listening through other speakers, as even the best recordings are at the mercy of room acoustics, the mics etc...so we now have the original recording mixed in with the acoustics of the room the speakers/equipment are playing in ..and then the sound which emanates at the receiving end ...in another room..probably a computer ... the final sound may still sound acceptable .......but ..........for those leaving definitive comments on the ability of the equipment shown only from seeing the video, would IMHO be credulous at best.

( I did do some of my shopping for a new flute years ago by checking youtube videos, so yes there is some credence there.. I have to admit )

Robert
Toronto, Ontario

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post #23678 of 23687 Old Today, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by jaxwired View Post
But you haven't heard them yet. My gut reaction is the same as yours, however, there IS something to be said for active speakers being perfectly mated to the amps and DSP doing a far better job with crossover duties and room correction. They might be amazing.
Agreed. The only thing potentially missing would be the prestige of owning a Confidence-line speaker. I would be very interested to hear the 200 XD and the C1s in the same room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTaudiophile View Post
We have one in-person XD review here. And I know one person has heard them over at PinkFishMedia. Same person? Dunnno. But both offer rave reviews.

I still have my questions about warranty, long-term reliability, connectivity issues (ala Xeo), and desire of audiophiles at this price point to want to buy into an active system. Of course resale is another issue. See all the Xeos on A-gon lately?

I must have missed the review; could you give me a link or tell me where to find it? Thanks!

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post #23679 of 23687 Old Today, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by jaxwired View Post
But you haven't heard them yet. My gut reaction is the same as yours, however, there IS something to be said for active speakers being perfectly mated to the amps and DSP doing a far better job with crossover duties and room correction. They might be amazing.
DSP can not be applied to account for every room's acoustic reaction with one setting. So....no advantage.

Digital crossover applications are no better than an analog circuit. Once set, it's all the same. So....no advantage.

The only difference I see in the new XD, as far as crossover settings, is they are using a 24db slope instead of the normal 6db slopes Dynaudio is known for. I have no idea why they changed the slope. The drivers they are using must inherently not play well above/below the crossover points selected. I have never seen a Dynaudio crossover with a 24db slope.
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post #23680 of 23687 Old Today, 01:09 PM
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XD review here.

Post a PFM.
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Current HiFi: Dynaudio Focus 260 | Meridian Direct DAC | NAIM XS 2 (2013)
Past HiFi: Dynaudio Excite X16 | Dynaudio Focus 160 | Harman Kardon HK3490
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post #23681 of 23687 Old Today, 01:17 PM
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Oh yeah, I remember thinking it was a bit overenthusiastic. Thanks for posting links.

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post #23682 of 23687 Old Today, 07:59 PM
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I had a brief (about 90 minutes) yet fun experience today. I had some time to kill before a meeting on Wall St. in NYC, so I stepped into Innovative Audio. They claim to be the #1 seller of Wilson products in the world. They also carry a healthy array of Dynaudio, Avalon, B&W, Linn, PMC, and Spendor speakers among others. They are also a big seller of NAIM products.

Their store is located one floor below street level and you take an elevator to get there. The elevator delivers you down to a main lobby and adjoining this you have two hallways leading to offices and a series of listening rooms. I did not make an appointment and thought I would just take a look around but I wasn't there but a few minutes when a sales rep was pulled from a meeting to take care of me. (I kind of felt bad.) Anyway, I told him I am a Dynaudio/NAIM owner and saw that he carries PMC speakers and asked if I could audition. He agreed, so he put me in a listening room and off we went.

When asked about specific room treatments, he gave me a BS answer along the lines of it being their worst room and that anything in my own living room would sound better than that room. BS. Otherwise, he was a good guy given the situation.

The audition involved FLAC audio files being served locally to a NAIM SuperUniti. We started with some classical before I asked for something with a little more depth so we ended up with tracks like 'Retrograde' by James Blake.

I expressed my interest in the PMC Twenty.23 (quoted to cost $5500) but he wanted me to audition the Spendor D7 (quoted to cost $7000). I must say that I was initially blown away by the D7s in that setup. Then I asked him to switch to the 23s. And then finally asked him to pull in the Focus 260s ($4900). I think he did the latter with some hesitation but I wanted to compare the 'new' stuff with the stuff I already own.

In regards to Dynaudio products on-location, they had the X14, X34, Xeo4, Focus 160, and Focus 260. And that was it.

What did I conclude?

The experience only reinforced my decision to buy Dynudio. I have tried to express my thoughts graphically below:



Each of the vertical bars above represents the "spectrum of sound."

In the case of the Spendor D7, it did a pretty good job filling this spectrum. I was at first very impressed with their capability throughout the range, including offering bass that I could feel.

In the case of the PMC 23, it did not fill this spectrum as well. In fact, the limitations of its smaller cabinet, especially in regards to bass response, was quite audible. But where the 23s truly shine is in the mids. Truly silky smooth. I want to also say that somehow the 23s offered more separation and depth into the music. There was certainly some added clarity there as compared to the D7s even if this did not extend as well in the high/low directions.

And then last but not least: the 260s. The cheapest of the bunch. I was somehow preparing myself to be disappointed. I was wrong. My goodness. The 260s easily bested the other two in terms of filling that spectrum of sound. The bass was there in spades, much more so than either the D7 and especially the 23. The high-end clarity and smoothness and openness certainly bested the other two. Though the mids were not quite as rich as the PMCs. Otherwise, I walked away re-affirmed by my decision. The 260 simply offered the entire package.

What else did I come away with?

1. I would like to make an appointment next time.
2. The rep told me that everyone falls in love with the NAIM SuperNait2. I want to audition one on the 260s.
3. Although I can't afford them, I would like to audition the Avalon Idea speaker.
4. My 'ideal' Dynaudio speaker could look something like this...

-A floor-standing speaker roughly the same dimensions as the 260s.
-Put in a 17cm version of the 'Evidence' bass driver from the Special25. (The S25 had a 20cm bass driver.)
(This smaller bass driver would have a much larger cabinet in the 260 than S25.)
-Put in the Esotar2 tweeter.
-Put in the 11cm mid-range driver from the old Excite X36.
-Make it a 3-way design.
my goodness.... GT... a graph? LOL

When I heard the PMC DBi1, I thought that for $2k they were better then the X16s but not any better then the 110s.

the speaker you're after sounds a lot like the Focus 340s.

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post #23683 of 23687 Old Today, 08:07 PM
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Callas: Yes and no. I don't want to deviate from the size/footprint of the 260s. The wife especially things the 260s are big enough.

But I would consider a "300" model that swaps out one of the 17cm drivers of the 260s, adds a mid-range driver, and makes it a 3-way.

It does sound like an interesting DIY project :P

Current HiFi: Dynaudio Focus 260 | Meridian Direct DAC | NAIM XS 2 (2013)
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post #23684 of 23687 Old Today, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by GTaudiophile View Post
Callas: Yes and no. I don't want to deviate from the size/footprint of the 260s. The wife especially things the 260s are big enough.

But I would consider a "300" model that swaps out one of the 17cm drivers of the 260s, adds a mid-range driver, and makes it a 3-way.

It does sound like an interesting DIY project :P
ask to see if Dynaudio can customize you a 3-way crossover for the 260s. bottom woofer up to 400 hz, mid-woofer from that range up to 2200 range.. it'd be like the 360/380 crossover, so it shouldn't be that hard, they would just need to eliminate the extra wires for the 2nd bass driver.

however Ive been told twice that the 260s are really 2.5 way speakers, not true 2-ways.

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post #23685 of 23687 Old Today, 08:40 PM
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Started my auditioning today after work. Started with two I knew would most likely not be contenders but I did say I was going to try at least 5 or 6 brands to form an opinion. All brands must have a much above average center available .

I have my notes and will wait until Sunday to talk more but today were the Sonus Faber Olympica and since I was there B&W Diamond.

I listened to Olympica III first and they also had the monitor on -hand. You know they are really a great looking speaker but it's amazing what pro pictures can do. They sound quite nice but I do not think I fall into this camp. I am sure most of you are familiar with the house sound. I need a more forward sound without crossing over into bright. I bet for HT the voices would be spetacular. I would consider a second listen with some additional CDs I did not have with me but at this point it's on the back burner. I do see why many like the sound.
These are $13k

I have small Bowers CM5s in my bedroom. The 803Ds while more lively than the Sonus just does not do it for me at all.The mid-range to me sounds like you are farther back in the hall. I prefer a closer more intimate sound. Not for me. $10k I was surprised I did not like them a bit more.

I would not trade my 340s for either of these. At $7500 MSRP what a value in my eyes going to Dynaudio. But sound is subjective of course.

Glad I knocked off two. Called Audio Vision SF today and the KEF Reference 1 monitor made it in. They are running it in as I type. Glad it made it. So C1, KEF Reference 1 and Dali Epicon can square off together. Nice. I will listen to Triangle as he suggested as well.

I can hit Monitor Audio and Focal at the second shop. Busy Saturday and glad that KEF 1 made it in time.

After two auditions the hand goes to Dynaudio and Focus 340. They are nice speakers. I have been hard on these guys I think.

Saturday yet?

Rick


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post #23686 of 23687 Old Today, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by GTaudiophile View Post
In addition to one 150w amp per driver, DSP processors, and the IR sensor/volume display, they have added "Esotec+" woofers and tweeters...whatever those are.

Here is my latest analysis on XD pricing...

USD values of above: (EUR/SEK/GBP)

XD 200
$6291/$6106/$7200 (AVG ca. $6,500)
OR
FOCUS 160 + $3600 amp.
OR
224% price of Focus 160


XD 400
$10067/$10176/$11582 (AVG ca. $10,500)
OR
Focus 260 + $5600 amp.
OR
214% price of Focus 260.


XD 600
$13845/$13342/$14298 (AVG ca. $13,850)
OR
Focus 380 + $4350 amp.
OR
145% price of Focus 380.
I guess about in the range of what one could spend for a DAC and AMP, the numbers are close. Technically, the 260s $4900 and the Amp Im buying (Uniti2) $5400 would be close. Of corse it all depends what you actually paid...

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post #23687 of 23687 Old Today, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr.SoftDome View Post
Started my auditioning today after work. Started with two I knew would most likely not be contenders but I did say I was going to try at least 5 or 6 brands to form an opinion. All brands must have a much above average center available .

I have my notes and will wait until Sunday to talk more but today were the Sonus Faber Olympica and since I was there B&W Diamond.

I listened to Olympica III first and they also had the monitor on -hand. You know they are really a great looking speaker but it's amazing what pro pictures can do. They sound quite nice but I do not think I fall into this camp. I am sure most of you are familiar with the house sound. I need a more forward sound without crossing over into bright. I bet for HT the voices would be spetacular. I would consider a second listen with some additional CDs I did not have with me but at this point it's on the back burner. I do see why many like the sound.
These are $13k

I have small Bowers CM5s in my bedroom. The 803Ds while more lively than the Sonus just does not do it for me at all.The mid-range to me sounds like you are farther back in the hall. I prefer a closer more intimate sound. Not for me. $10k I was surprised I did not like them a bit more.

I would not trade my 360s for either of these. At $7500 MSRP what a value in my eyes going to Dynaudio. But sound is subjective of course.

Glad I knocked off two. Called Audio Vision SF today and the KEF Reference 1 monitor made it in. They are running it in as I type. Glad it made it. So C1, KEF Reference 1 and Dali Epicon can square off together. Nice. I will listen to Triangle as he suggested as well.

I can hit Monitor Audio and Focal at the second shop. Busy Saturday and glad that KEF 1 made it in time.

After two auditions the hand goes to Dynaudio and Focus 340. They are nice speakers. I have been hard on these guys I think.

Saturday yet?

Rick
I love auditioning speakers, its so much fun.

Glad to hear you got a couple of listens in.... I think the current Focus line is a great value... Are there better speakers, sure, but the performance margins are slim you get from most of the things that Ive heard. They really are able to punch higher then they are priced.

Have fun on saturday.

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Naim Nait XS-2, Jolida FX Tube DAC, Integra DTR-40.2, 55" Panasonic Plasma
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