Sell Magnepan 3.6R's and buy NHT Xd? - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou
Ummm one would hope a $6000 speaker is more dynamic than a $700 Paradigm. Atkinson, one of the few you can trust along with Kal said:


It's true that the NHT Xd system still lacks ultimate dynamic range, but there's only so much you can ask in terms of ultimate loudness from a pair of drive-units with a radiating diameter of just 3".

I can easily demonstrate the difference in dynamics and which speaker has the superior soundstage whilst playing well recorded Berlioz or Holst. In fact it's not even close as the laws of physics come into play. I'm grabbing some Revel Ultimates this week so that will make an interesting comparison.
If John didn't overexaggerate and misinform he wouldn't get into these problems with people everywhere.
With the XD system the 5" driver is the main limitation because it can only move so much air. The high order slope from the high pass crossover will minimize the excursion. With an average size room playing them at a reasonable volume should be ok for most music. If you primarily listen to large scale orchestral music, want to really rock out, or have a large listening room then a larger scale speaker will be more suitable.

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post #152 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Rick Craig
With the XD system the 5" driver is the main limitation because it can only move so much air. The high order slope from the high pass crossover will minimize the excursion. With an average size room playing them at a reasonable volume should be ok for most music. If you primarily listen to large scale orchestral music, want to really rock out, or have a large listening room then a larger scale speaker will be more suitable.

Indeed.
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post #153 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Zissou
He has been taken to task innumerable times for his claims of dynamics on the NHT. Every review mentions the lack of dynamics because even with DSP you can only bend the laws of physics so much and Fisher Price sized drivers have immutable limitations.
Uhhh, yeah, "innumerable" being like *once* by a guy in England who thinks that the only speaker capable of being a studio monitor must be basically a PA speaker. That's his opinion, but obviously most of the rest of the recording industry disagrees. Consider that excursion quadruples every time you drop an octave. Using ultra steep crossover dramatically improves dynamics.

As far as reviews, you really need to read more than one or two. as soon as my server goes back up, I'll show all the quotes about their capabilities. And remember, you talk about things *sounding* dynamic which is different from things *being* dynamic. Mac. The "knock" about dynamics is not "they don't sound dynamic" or that they *aren't* dynamic. They do and are. It's that they won't play quite as loud, ~105db (one sub) or ~110dB (two subs) as an enormous speaker like, say, Rick's line arrays. Only you are too dumb to understand what it means "lacks *ultimate* dynamics* means. NHT has a version for recording studios that does 120dB. That's getting closer to ultimate dynamics, but simply isn't necessary for most people in most rooms with most music.

As I keep repeating. Xd has *less* distortion at high volumes than most speakers do. Up to 100dB or more, very few speakers can even approach its low distortion. At 100dB, most *high-end* speakers have more than 10 times the midrange distortion of Xd. Not Ricks, of course, that's just crazy overkill, but a B&W, Magnepan, Vanderteen, Thiel? They could be hitting 25% distortion at a volume where Xd is doing less than 1%. Steep crossover, exceptional drivers. Double up on subs if you need to.

But HEY, you'd know all this if you ever LISTENED to them, let alone this fantasy of having OWNED them.
Quote:

The 3.6R and the 20.1 along with a few other speakers are capable of reproducing the scale and dynamic range of a symphony orchestra which typically will range from 80 dB to 105 or slightly higher. It simply comes down to moving air and driver size. I can see you two do not attend concerts.
Measure the distortion of a Magnepan at 100dB, get back to me.
Quote:

The 3-way MG 3.6 has planar-magnetic midrange and bass sections, each running nearly the speaker's full height. The bass panel is wider, with an area of 537 square inches (a conventional 12-inch woofer has roughly a fifth of that surface area),
I think Rick said it. Doesn't matter if it can't move very far. Also remember, the Magnepan has to product HUGE excursion (for a ribbon) to hit 50Hz, probably 12dB-24dB higher than the midrange and treble because most of the bass gets canceled by the dipole design. You can see that the 47Hz is a good 30dB higher than the treble. That does what? Kills "dynamics", raises distortion.

Read a book, would you? Mac.

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post #154 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Zissou
Crying to the teacher? I was referring to your Audionut in your profile son.
LMAO HAHAHA! That one made me laugh hard! That is the *worst* cover up I have ever seen. Why would you have edited your post if you were calling me an audio nut? Give me a break “son.â€

And if "crying to the teacher" exposes you for who you are and spares us all your insults, then yes I am a taddle tale.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou
Ummm one would hope a $6000 speaker is more dynamic than a $700 Paradigm. Atkinson, one of the few you can trust along with Kal said:

It's true that the NHT Xd system still lacks ultimate dynamic range, but there's only so much you can ask in terms of ultimate loudness from a pair of drive-units with a radiating diameter of just 3".

I can easily demonstrate the difference in dynamics and which speaker has the superior soundstage whilst playing well recorded Berlioz or Holst. In fact it's not even close as the laws of physics come into play. I'm grabbing some Revel Ultimates this week so that will make an interesting comparison.
If John didn't overexaggerate and misinform he wouldn't get into these problems with people everywhere.
Yes, the Xd are more expensive than the studio 20's, but you said that the “fisher price sized drivers have immutable limitations;†you were wrong. It’s not the size of the driver necessarily, but the quality of them and the crossover design, not to mention the cabinet design. There is more to a good sounding speaker than large drivers.

You trust Atkinson? Come on man, he is one of the worst! This is my opinion of course.

If you can in fact prove to yourself that the Magnepan’s bring forth better dynamics than the NHT’s (which you still have not proven you own), all that proves is that they are more dynamic to your ears. They may be less dynamic to me or John (again, I have never heard the NHT’s so I am just generalizing here. It’s pretty apparent you haven’t heard the NHT’s Zissou. I haven’t either but at least I can admit it. It is okay to compare measurements but hearing them is preferable, of course). I can also admit that the Mags I heard were pretty darn dynamic. So even *IF* they are more dynamic, what about all the transparency lies printing in magazines like Ultimate AV? Transparency means the ability to simply pass along the audio signal without adding coloration and flaws. In other words, transparent means accurate. It is the ability for the speaker in question to present the music in the way the artist and audio mixer intended when it was recorded (in general, most audiophiles strive to achieve an audio setup in which the music is represented in the same way in which it would be if that person were at a live performance of that artist). So please explain why the Mags are so inaccurate (transparent)! You claim that if you use Linkwitz’s formula that the FR will flatten; prove it.

I do not want to fight with you and I surely do not want to insult you, but after reading everything you claim, it is apparent that you have no proof to back your opinions. In fact, you still have not answered questions asked of you 3 pages back in this thread. If you are so wise and know more than I and John, why don’t you answer those questions? Why don’t you prove your statement in which you said the Magnepan’s are better performers in every way compared to the NHT’s? Teach us oh wise man. :D Seriously though, until you answer these questions and prove what you claim, the rest of your comments will be disregarded and will further disgrace your image here. Either provide proof and save face, or bow out gracefully (if you have any grace left) and we will let bygones be bygones.

Summa, I know that you love you Magnepan speakers and I apologize to you for all the negative things that have been said about them. Early on in this thread Zissou made a very blind and false statement that the Magnepans are superior to the NHT’s in every way. He was in fact wrong. The only reason I am here is to refute this ridiculous claim; I am not here to bash your beloved speaker brand name. I am sure those Mags bring you hours of enjoyment and I am happy for you. I again apologize that this thread seemed to turn into a debate about one of your favorite speakers. I don’t doubt that the Mags are very dynamic; I have heard them and thought they were pretty dynamic myself. The only thing I am truly arguing is that the NHT’s are more accurate (on paper; but if they are more accurate on paper they will generally be more accurate when listening when properly set up, unless the drivers are trash). Accuracy has a very precise definition, but it is not the most important thing concerning a person’s search for a great speaker. They only thing that matters is what *that* person thinks. Who cares about accuracy when a speaker can bring tears to your eyes, right? Again, I am sure the Mags are great speakers for ya. Forgive me if I have offended you in any way. Thanks.

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post #155 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Zissou
Excursion capability is also where you get into distortion, group delay and lack of coherence between drivers.
Besides not making any sense at all, even if it *were* true (you're just making crap up at this point), a big system is going to be loafing when the Magnepans are screaming "help me.....heeeeeeeelp me".

I've had people replace Maggies with *bookshelf* speakers and say "wow, I can really play LOUD with these!" Magnepans, despite their other wonderful attributes have the dynamics of a *small* speaker. Xds, despite being small, have the dynamics of a medium to large speaker (depending on how many subs). Of course a big line array is more like "gigantic" in terms of dynamics. But people don't buy Magnepans for dynamic range. They buy them for other reasons. Too continue to say that Magnepans are more "dynamic" than Xd shows complete ignorance and/or complete detachment from reality.

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post #156 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Rick Craig
If you primarily listen to large scale orchestral music, want to really rock out [edit] AND [/edit] have a large listening room then a larger scale speaker will be more suitable.
:) Sorry, just putting words in your mouth ;)

John
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post #157 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall
Besides not making any sense at all, even if it *were* true (you're just making crap up at this point), a big system is going to be loafing when the Magnepans are screaming "help me.....heeeeeeeelp me".

I've had people replace Maggies with *bookshelf* speakers and say "wow, I can really play LOUD with these!" Magnepans, despite their other wonderful attributes have the dynamics of a *small* speaker. Xds, despite being small, have the dynamics of a medium to large speaker. Of course a big line array is more like "gigantic" in terms of dynamics. But people don't buy Magnepans for dynamic range. They buy them for other reasons. Too continue to say that Magnepans are more "dynamic" than Xd shows complete ignorance and/or complete detachment from reality.
A battle of wits with unarmed opponents is tedious at best. You and Nuance are perfect for one another and I hope you'll be very happy together although it wouldn't surprise me if "he" was yet another of your pseudonyms Sybil. Oh and Nuance it's spelled tattle tale. John, Doc, Sybil your total lack of understanding of acoustics, that has been pointed out to you time and time again by many, many people, makes any contact with you futile. You will continue to blunder your way through life and do a huge disservice to your customers if you have any left.
To say bookshelf speakers have more dynamics than the large Maggies shows you're clearly beyond help.
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post #158 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Nuance
The Xd speakers cost $6000 for a 5.1 setup including a subwoofer, not just for a pair of them.
Actually, it *is* $6K/pair. It's like $16K for 5.1.

John
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post #159 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Zissou
A battle of wits with unarmed opponents is tedious at best. You and Nuance are perfect for one another and I hope you'll be very happy together although it wouldn't surprise me if "he" was yet another of your pseudonyms Sybil.
Funny, Nuance and I argue and disagree and kid each other about just about everything, but thanks for bringing us together.

Quote:
To say bookshelf speakers have more dynamics than the large Maggies shows you're clearly beyond help.
To say that bookshelf speakers have more dynamics than Maggies *in general* is just quoting some of my customers. Not sure how the 20.1 might do. Why, it might be as dynamic as a small tower! :D

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post #160 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall

I think Rick said it. Doesn't matter if it can't move very far. Also remember, the Magnepan has to product HUGE excursion (for a ribbon) to hit 50Hz, probably 12dB-24dB higher than the midrange and treble because most of the bass gets canceled by the dipole design. You can see that the 47Hz is a good 30dB higher than the treble. That does what? Kills "dynamics", raises distortion.

Read a book, would you? Mac.
The ribbon hits 50? Miss taking your meds today????????
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post #161 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Nuance

Summa, I know that you love you Magnepan speakers and I apologize to you for all the negative things that have been said about them. Early on in this thread Zissou made a very blind and false statement that the Magnepans are superior to the NHT’s in every way. He was in fact wrong. The only reason I am here is to refute this ridiculous claim; I am not here to bash your beloved speaker brand name. I am sure those Mags bring you hours of enjoyment and I am happy for you. I again apologize that this thread seemed to turn into a debate about one of your favorite speakers. I don’t doubt that the Mags are very dynamic; I have heard them and thought they were pretty dynamic myself. The only thing I am truly arguing is that the NHT’s are more accurate (on paper; but if they are more accurate on paper they will generally be more accurate when listening when properly set up, unless the drivers are trash). Accuracy has a very precise definition, but it is not the most important thing concerning a person’s search for a great speaker. They only thing that matters is what *that* person thinks. Who cares about accuracy when a speaker can bring tears to your eyes, right? Again, I am sure the Mags are great speakers for ya. Forgive me if I have offended you in any way. Thanks.
Not a problem at all....no offense taken....I know Maggies aren't for everyone, I just think that some of the criticisms that were valid of them 20 years ago are much less true today. I'm really not one who SHOULD have loved Maggies, yet I did, and do. I just hate to see someone pass on giving them a shot because they read something about them on here that was unfairly critical, you know?
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post #162 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Zissou
The ribbon hits 50? Miss taking your meds today????????
Well, 47, according to Stereophile. NHT Classic 3 does 45Hz. Magnepans don't go deep, but can have an overabundance of bass at certain midbass frequencies, depending on how you position them.

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post #163 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall
Well, 47, according to Stereophile. NHT Classic 3 does 45Hz. Magnepans don't go deep, but can have an overabundance of bass at certain midbass frequencies, depending on how you position them.

Again THE RIBBON?????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ? :D :D :D :D :D :D
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post #164 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 07:47 AM
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Would "panel" make you feel better?

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post #165 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 07:51 AM
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Actually, it *is* $6K/pair. It's like $16K for 5.1.
Really? Wow. I stand corrected (see, I can admit when I am wrong Zissou).

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Would "panel" make you feel better?
Well since the "ribbon" is the tweeter what do you think? Helluva tweeter to cover 50-40K. :D :D :D :D :D . Are you ever right about ANYTHING? :confused:
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post #167 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 07:52 AM
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Really? Wow. I stand corrected (see, I can admit when I am wrong Zissou).

Well that's the first step in recovery.
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post #168 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 07:53 AM
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Semantics.

John
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post #169 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Summa
Not a problem at all....no offense taken....I know Maggies aren't for everyone, I just think that some of the criticisms that were valid of them 20 years ago are much less true today. I'm really not one who SHOULD have loved Maggies, yet I did, and do. I just hate to see someone pass on giving them a shot because they read something about them on here that was unfairly critical, you know?
I know what you are saying. And you are very correct when you say that Maggies have come along since 20 years ago. In fact, the 3.6 gets praised for improving upon problem areas which old Maggies had.

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Semantics.
Yes John knowing the difference between a panel and a ribbon is merely semantics. Your poor customers.
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post #171 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Zissou
Well that's the first step in recovery.
You only humor yourself little one.

So how about that proof? Still looking for some? Well, gee, take your time. Right now you prove to have as much experience with audio as a toilet bug. Perhaps you could be promoted to roach in the near future :D

John and I are the same person huh? That is simply laughable.

And thanks for the grammar lesson, even though it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. But hey, if it makes you feel more important...I guess you do whatever you have to since you lack any significant audio knowledge. :p

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John you kill me.


I cannot praise NHT sufficiently highly. It is by far the most exciting speaker brand I've ever found. NHT consistently outperforms speakers from some of the most hyped brands in the industry, almost regardless of cost and is getting better at a rate far faster than its competitors. NHT is in the same price range, but dramatically superior to mass-market brands like Bose, Polk, Boston Acoustics, Klipsch, JBL, Cambridge Soundworks, Definitive Technology, Infinity and others. More importantly to us, NHT matches and even outperforms (in multiple magazine comparison tests) famous audiophile speaker costing two and three times the price such as B&W, Thiel, Vandersteen, Aerial Acoustics, Martin-Logan and others. And just as exciting, NHT handily outperforms brands that I think offer very good performance for the money, such as Paradigm, Energy and Mirage. In fact, I have never found a speaker that can compete with NHT for the same amount of money. NHT has pushed good brands such as PSB, Acoustic Research (twice), Signet, Von Schweikert, JMLabs and Monsoon, out the door by beating them at every price point that NHT competes. There is NO other speaker company that equals the accuracy and power of NHT at anywhere near the price. I have even been told privately by several magazine reviewers (many of which own NHT) that direct comparisons to NHT or other high value brands are often discouraged as it damages the reputations of some of their heavy advertisers. So....if you own anything besides NHT, no matter how much you like it, you owe it to yourself to tryout their latest offerings. NHT's previous series embarrassed many speakers cost 2-4 times as much by offering equal or better sound for far less. The new "Classic" Series offers state of the art musical performance that continues the tradition of embarrassing high-end brands. Compare the $1800/pr FOUR to $10,000/pr and up speakers. And the revolutionary Xd digital system to $50,000 flagships. We dare you.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance
You only humor yourself little one.

So how about that proof? Still looking for some? Well, gee, take your time. Right now you prove to have as much experience with audio as a toilet bug. Perhaps you could be promoted to roach in the near future :D

John and I are the same person huh? That is simply laughable.

And thanks for the grammar lesson, even though it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. But hey, if it makes you feel more important...I guess you do whatever you have to since you lack any significant audio knowledge. :p

Since you've heard neither speaker why are you here???????????
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post #174 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 08:08 AM
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The heck was that? Were you quoting something John once said, or were you being a smart @$$?

I feel there is little hope for you!

Are you blind or what? I have stated many times that I have heard the Magnepan. Wow, you are truly lost little boy!

Again, until you provide proof to warrant your statements instead of simply insulting people, I am done with you. I look forward to when you get banned. ;)

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I'm glad I ran across this post. The NHT Xd was one of the speakers that I was considering auditioning.

In my opinion, transparency is the most important attribute that a speaker can have. I want to feel like
I'm listening to the actual performance, rather than feeling like I'm listening to the stereo. If as John Atkinson states,
the NHT Xd lacks the transparency of a conventional speaker; then I don't see how it belongs in Stereophile's
Class A nor Class B.

I guess this is one speaker that I can safely cross off my list of speakers to audition. Morbius, thanks to you and
John Atkinson; I won't be wasting my time listening to the NHT Xd.

Barb



Oh good grief

Barb, if that is your real name, if you're that much of a sheep, you're right, please don't listen to Xd. Xd is not for people who buy based on what people tell them. It's for people who who think for themselves. It's a music lover's speaker, not a speaker lover's speaker. The B&W Dogmatic Lemming Society still has a few spaces for group thinkers such as yourself.

John



OK, John, you're officially off your rocker. It's one thing to tangle with the regulars on this thread, we give as good as we get. In fact I think that Dr. Greenman has an unhealthy fixation with you.

But Barb J did absolutely nothing to you---nothing. She expressed a sentiment that, frankly, I disagree with too, but it wasn't personal in the least. And in return, you throw crap like this at her?

Get a friggin' life.

And lest you think she's one of us in disguise, that would mean that the perpetrator tried to cover his tracks by posting this post FIVE MONTHS AGO before heading over here. Besides, there's only one person on this thread who has a track record of claiming to be someone he's not.


You owe Ms. Adams an apology. Period.


Well, she owes NHT an apology. Period. Let's start from there and see if we can work our way forward. Or not. (BTW, no she really doesn't owe anybody an apology except maybe herself, but while we're randomly and ridiculously saying who owes who what just because..........)

BTW, people wonder why reviewers piss me off so much. This is *exactly* why. They make these pronouncements or comments such as this and it instantly changes how people think. People say that "c'mon, it's just Stereophile, people will listen for themselves", but this is why I'm sure there are several hundred people who will read that one comment by Atkinson and think "oh, I'm not going to bother listening for myself now" and even dozens more who actually listened, liked and were going to buy a set, but now are thinking "oh, this expert says they're not that transparent even though dozens of other people say they are and I don't trust my own hearing, I'd better not buy them". I'm not pissed off at Barb, she has the right to do whatever she wants, even though I can hardly believe she said that. But Atkinson? Talk about yellow journalism. But things like this do make me feel wonder about the human race. Are we really so intellectually lazy and easily controlled by others that we make $6000+ decisions based on one line in one magazine by one person? Yeah, I guess we are. And that's just so sad. No wonder why Bose is the biggest selling speaker in the world.



OK JOhn

Verdict is in...you are one sick dude.

What is it about you that makes you tick?



John..you are a joke or should I say a fraud,


I predicted at the onset of this thread that you (as always) will be responsible for the mod closing it


John

Whilke I do agree with Michael regarding greg's obsession with you , my comment in the post to which you objected was based upon all of the above posts of yours which to me serve to corroborate your obsessive compulsive personality. It seems that now we not only have to hear from you regarding the virtues of the NHT system but so also the written accolades from countless clients of yours. What is it exactly that you have to prove here as well as on every other forum that repeatedly and predictably degenerates into incessant arguments with people.

You know that in the past I have tried to calm the waves between you and Greg. It is your personality that IMO always causes the volatility in these forums.

Just my $0.02


OK John, i will jump in. YOur obsession with the perception of the NHT is unhealthy.

Seek Help!



Sigh. John, the differences between your interaction with her and her lack of interaction with NHT are legion. It's actually quite sad that you don't appreciate that---pitifully, horribly sad that your social graces are so fundamentally flawed.

Like I said, her issue with NHT is between her and NHT. I didn't mean that to suggest that prevents you from claiming she owes them an apology; rather, I meant that to say that we ought to ask them ourselves. So I think it would be a good idea to have an NHT representative come on board and offer his defense of their product in the face of Stereophile's less than perfect review. While he's at it, I hope he will review your horrid response to her and apologize to her himself---as it reflects rather poorly on their company to have one of their dealers rip a potential customer to shreds.

Who knows, maybe Barb will ignore your lunatic ravings and actually be moved to change her mind---which is clearly the objective you should have had instead of deciding to excoriate her.


John,

You certainly appear to be more than adept at making enemies; both here on AVS and at
Audio Asylum.

I'm no salesman, but it does appear to be a rather poor way to sell speakers; which I believe is
your profession. People don't like it when you harangue them that they're "wrong" and you're
"right"; especially when it comes to matters of opinion on which reasonable people may differ.

In addition to Mac at Audio Asylum, you've probably made an enemy of John Atkinson by
publically proclaiming he needs "Q-Tips" on Stereophile's own website:


I see we are now censoring posts that point out the truth. Still, here's the relevant website -
http://www.qtips.com

I can provide phone numbers for John to call and speak with people who have traded in T6s for
Xd so he can tell them they're not as transparent. I'd love to hear how that conversation goes.
What is this, opposite day? Seriously!

--------------------
John Ashman - Audio Designs



The NHT Xd was discussed much here - which resulted in a demo for the BAAS. So there
is / was interest in the subject. I saw on the Stereophile website that Stereophile had placed
the speakers in "Class A - Restricted LF", but that Editor John Atkinson expressed his belief
that they really belonged in Class B.

I also noted that John Atkinson had posted his reasons for believing them to be Class B speakers,
and that John Ashman had expressed his opinion with regard to Atkinson's reasoning.

I found this interesting because, just as OB also noted in post #5 of this thread; that this was
a major reversal for Ashman. Months ago he was forecasting that John Atkinson and
Stereophile would review / test the Xd and that the review would blow everything else off
the map - Wilson MAXX II and X-2 included:


Like I said, the Xd system beats the Maxx and X2 in several critical areas already - phase/time,
tonal accuracy, dispersion. Certainly the ability to adapt to rooms via EQ and time-based room
correction. ...Wanna bet on that one since you already know the Maxx is going to come up short
compared to Xd?


As we now see, that did not happen; and John Ashman no longer holds John Atkinson and
Stereophile in such high regard.

I was not baiting John, nor editorializing; just reporting the state of affairs that I thought might
be of interest to members of this forum; given our previous history discussing the subject.


I didn't mean to "bait" John into reappearing here.

I just meant to say that now that we know Stereophile's rankings - the NHT Xd didn't fare as
well as John had forecast - AND that we see that he's upset about it - enough so that he's been
bad-mouthing John Atkinson and Stereophile. Given the history here, my post wasn't just
about the speakers, it was about John's reactions too - that's part of the story.

Additionally, as I followed some of the discussion on the Stereophile forum - it lead me to the
Audio Asylum. There I saw threads typical of some of those previously seen here. Evidently,
John had been "reviewing" the equipment choices of the "inmates" of the Audio Asylum and
e-mailing them about what crappy choices they made in their choice of audio equipment.
They also complained that he wouldn't stop these e-mailings when asked politely.

In a way, I guess I was saying, "Be glad he's over there and not here" - little did I know.
I apologize for my naivete.


John,

I really couldn't care less about you. I am concerned somewhat about people getting
misinformation because they believe you to be a credible source. I think with this last
thread, you blew away any last remaining shreds of credibility.

Quote:
At least I know from where my "obsession" comes. I'm very passionate about affordable products that play with the big boys because more people can own and enjoy better sound. The democratization of high-end, rather than a exclusive, elitist social club. If that's an obsession, then I'm pretty content with that.


Yeah, John - we know you're fighting for "truth, justice, and the American way"...OH BROTHER!


ohn,

The drivers of the Apogee dipoles are ribbons - they are symmetric front to back.
They look, and are; the same from the front as from the back.

Now explain how a symmetric ribbon driver radiates 88% rearward and only
12% to the front?

As anybody should know, a dipole radiates 50% forward and 50% backward,
wilth nulls to the side because the front and back waves are of opposite polarity.

Quote:
Said "pre-ringing" is also designed cleverly to self-cancel.

ROTFLMAO!!! It "self-cancels" - pray tell how THAT happens!!!

If the "pre-ringing" was designed to "self-cancel" then why was it picked
up by John Atkinson's microphone so as to generate the traces seen in
Fig. 11?

http://www.stereophile.com/standlou...nht/index4.html

The graphs don't lie - the graphs that is!!

You just fabricated the "self-cancel" out of whole cloth. Are there any limits to
the degree to which you will dishevel to promote this product that you sell?

The response of a speaker to an impulse should look like the impulse - that is a
flat zero until the impulse, then it should jump up. The raw drivers of the NHT Xd
do that as John Atkinson shows in Fig. 10.

However, when driven by the XdA, the response is that of Fig. 11. The part of the
signal that is responsible for the "pre-ring" has a lesser latency in the digital filter
than the latency of the main impulse in the digital filter. So while the main part
of the impulse is still in the DEQX processor - the "pre-ring" part of the output is
moving the drivers and launching a wave into the air - a wave that is propagating
toward the listener or microphone that the main part of the signal can never
"catch-up" to and cancel.

The "pre-ring" is something that digital filters like the DEQX can do - and high
order, steep slope digital filters are more prone to "pre-ringing" than lower
order filters.

The "pre-ring" is just part of the cost that NHT [ and its customers ] paid to
simplify NHT's design problems. It's similar to the analogy with the stealth
aircraft. You seem to be arguing the analog that flat-faceted aircraft are the
ultimate in stealth aircraft design. The flat facets of the F-117A were a stopgap
because that's the best that Lockheed could do at the time.

NHT / DEQX should fix the "pre-ring" as they move the technology forward.

You want to enshrine NHT's stopgap technology.

Just as the aircraft industry went on to develop computer software to accurately
model Maxwell's Equation so that stealth technology can be incorporated into
an aircraft with the sleek gentle curves and sophistication of the Northrup-Grumman
B-2 Spirit; the digital filter technology should evolve so that stopgap technologies
are no longer required. It makes the job of the design engineers more difficult -
but it results in a better product for the customer.

Just as the U.S. Air Force now has the B-2, which is a much more capable stealth
platform than the F-117A; I'm sure that future offerings from NHT will greatly surpass
their flawed first attempt. Stay tuned.

John

I will not be too precise in my my recollection but in the original XD thread, it seems like you thought that Stereophile measurements were going to show how superior the XD are to any other speakers.. So what is happening here?

What I think many here are asking you is to display a certain amount of good faith and .. well .... sportsmanship for the lack of a better word. Anyone considering a pair of speakers north of $5,000 should consider the XD no doubt but it is not in itself the end-of-all speakers. Good it is.. The best ? You know it is not...

Greg

John reminds me of a guy, I had in my class in High School who had the ability to get under everybody skin save for the teachers whom he managed to have on his side without being the proverbial teachers's pet. So let it go.. John knows better than anyone when he is wrong and when he is pulling our collective legs...


John,

Dispersion in and of itself; or for its own sake isn't the hallmark of a great
speaker. Besides, I'm talking about how smooth is the response at the listener's
position as a function of frequency due to changes in dispersion - not a graph
that's an average or normalized. Perhaps you think the on-axis response
is ruler flat - but this graph appears to be normalized about the on-axis
response. So any dip with frequency would approx. divide out so long as
both the off-axis and on-axis response dipped.

The dispersion of a dipole is more restictive than a monopole. Yes - that means
it has a small "sweet spot". That's fine with me. I really don't care how the
speaker sounds 45 degrees off-axis because I'm not listening to it there.

Yes - the Xd has wide dispersion - it "sprays" sound all over the room as well as
that venerable old firehose of a speaker - the Bose 901!!

The Xd also "rings like the Liberty Bell". Scratch that - the Liberty Bell is more
muted since it cracked - and it's also "causal" - it doesn't ring until you hit it!!

However, I grow weary of your "fantasies" of the Xd being the most accurate,
or whatever...
Zissou is offline  
post #176 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou
I'm glad I ran across this post. The NHT Xd was one of the speakers that I was considering auditioning.

In my opinion, transparency is the most important attribute that a speaker can have. I want to feel like
I'm listening to the actual performance, rather than feeling like I'm listening to the stereo. If as John Atkinson states,
the NHT Xd lacks the transparency of a conventional speaker; then I don't see how it belongs in Stereophile's
Class A nor Class B.

I guess this is one speaker that I can safely cross off my list of speakers to audition. Morbius, thanks to you and
John Atkinson; I won't be wasting my time listening to the NHT Xd.

Barb



Oh good grief

Barb, if that is your real name, if you're that much of a sheep, you're right, please don't listen to Xd. Xd is not for people who buy based on what people tell them. It's for people who who think for themselves. It's a music lover's speaker, not a speaker lover's speaker. The B&W Dogmatic Lemming Society still has a few spaces for group thinkers such as yourself.

John



OK, John, you're officially off your rocker. It's one thing to tangle with the regulars on this thread, we give as good as we get. In fact I think that Dr. Greenman has an unhealthy fixation with you.

But Barb J did absolutely nothing to you---nothing. She expressed a sentiment that, frankly, I disagree with too, but it wasn't personal in the least. And in return, you throw crap like this at her?

Get a friggin' life.

And lest you think she's one of us in disguise, that would mean that the perpetrator tried to cover his tracks by posting this post FIVE MONTHS AGO before heading over here. Besides, there's only one person on this thread who has a track record of claiming to be someone he's not.


You owe Ms. Adams an apology. Period.


Well, she owes NHT an apology. Period. Let's start from there and see if we can work our way forward. Or not. (BTW, no she really doesn't owe anybody an apology except maybe herself, but while we're randomly and ridiculously saying who owes who what just because..........)

BTW, people wonder why reviewers piss me off so much. This is *exactly* why. They make these pronouncements or comments such as this and it instantly changes how people think. People say that "c'mon, it's just Stereophile, people will listen for themselves", but this is why I'm sure there are several hundred people who will read that one comment by Atkinson and think "oh, I'm not going to bother listening for myself now" and even dozens more who actually listened, liked and were going to buy a set, but now are thinking "oh, this expert says they're not that transparent even though dozens of other people say they are and I don't trust my own hearing, I'd better not buy them". I'm not pissed off at Barb, she has the right to do whatever she wants, even though I can hardly believe she said that. But Atkinson? Talk about yellow journalism. But things like this do make me feel wonder about the human race. Are we really so intellectually lazy and easily controlled by others that we make $6000+ decisions based on one line in one magazine by one person? Yeah, I guess we are. And that's just so sad. No wonder why Bose is the biggest selling speaker in the world.



OK JOhn

Verdict is in...you are one sick dude.

What is it about you that makes you tick?



John..you are a joke or should I say a fraud,


I predicted at the onset of this thread that you (as always) will be responsible for the mod closing it


John

Whilke I do agree with Michael regarding greg's obsession with you , my comment in the post to which you objected was based upon all of the above posts of yours which to me serve to corroborate your obsessive compulsive personality. It seems that now we not only have to hear from you regarding the virtues of the NHT system but so also the written accolades from countless clients of yours. What is it exactly that you have to prove here as well as on every other forum that repeatedly and predictably degenerates into incessant arguments with people.

You know that in the past I have tried to calm the waves between you and Greg. It is your personality that IMO always causes the volatility in these forums.

Just my $0.02


OK John, i will jump in. YOur obsession with the perception of the NHT is unhealthy.

Seek Help!



Sigh. John, the differences between your interaction with her and her lack of interaction with NHT are legion. It's actually quite sad that you don't appreciate that---pitifully, horribly sad that your social graces are so fundamentally flawed.

Like I said, her issue with NHT is between her and NHT. I didn't mean that to suggest that prevents you from claiming she owes them an apology; rather, I meant that to say that we ought to ask them ourselves. So I think it would be a good idea to have an NHT representative come on board and offer his defense of their product in the face of Stereophile's less than perfect review. While he's at it, I hope he will review your horrid response to her and apologize to her himself---as it reflects rather poorly on their company to have one of their dealers rip a potential customer to shreds.

Who knows, maybe Barb will ignore your lunatic ravings and actually be moved to change her mind---which is clearly the objective you should have had instead of deciding to excoriate her.


John,

You certainly appear to be more than adept at making enemies; both here on AVS and at
Audio Asylum.

I'm no salesman, but it does appear to be a rather poor way to sell speakers; which I believe is
your profession. People don't like it when you harangue them that they're "wrong" and you're
"right"; especially when it comes to matters of opinion on which reasonable people may differ.

In addition to Mac at Audio Asylum, you've probably made an enemy of John Atkinson by
publically proclaiming he needs "Q-Tips" on Stereophile's own website:


I see we are now censoring posts that point out the truth. Still, here's the relevant website -
http://www.qtips.com

I can provide phone numbers for John to call and speak with people who have traded in T6s for
Xd so he can tell them they're not as transparent. I'd love to hear how that conversation goes.
What is this, opposite day? Seriously!

--------------------
John Ashman - Audio Designs



The NHT Xd was discussed much here - which resulted in a demo for the BAAS. So there
is / was interest in the subject. I saw on the Stereophile website that Stereophile had placed
the speakers in "Class A - Restricted LF", but that Editor John Atkinson expressed his belief
that they really belonged in Class B.

I also noted that John Atkinson had posted his reasons for believing them to be Class B speakers,
and that John Ashman had expressed his opinion with regard to Atkinson's reasoning.

I found this interesting because, just as OB also noted in post #5 of this thread; that this was
a major reversal for Ashman. Months ago he was forecasting that John Atkinson and
Stereophile would review / test the Xd and that the review would blow everything else off
the map - Wilson MAXX II and X-2 included:


Like I said, the Xd system beats the Maxx and X2 in several critical areas already - phase/time,
tonal accuracy, dispersion. Certainly the ability to adapt to rooms via EQ and time-based room
correction. ...Wanna bet on that one since you already know the Maxx is going to come up short
compared to Xd?


As we now see, that did not happen; and John Ashman no longer holds John Atkinson and
Stereophile in such high regard.

I was not baiting John, nor editorializing; just reporting the state of affairs that I thought might
be of interest to members of this forum; given our previous history discussing the subject.


I didn't mean to "bait" John into reappearing here.

I just meant to say that now that we know Stereophile's rankings - the NHT Xd didn't fare as
well as John had forecast - AND that we see that he's upset about it - enough so that he's been
bad-mouthing John Atkinson and Stereophile. Given the history here, my post wasn't just
about the speakers, it was about John's reactions too - that's part of the story.

Additionally, as I followed some of the discussion on the Stereophile forum - it lead me to the
Audio Asylum. There I saw threads typical of some of those previously seen here. Evidently,
John had been "reviewing" the equipment choices of the "inmates" of the Audio Asylum and
e-mailing them about what crappy choices they made in their choice of audio equipment.
They also complained that he wouldn't stop these e-mailings when asked politely.

In a way, I guess I was saying, "Be glad he's over there and not here" - little did I know.
I apologize for my naivete.


John,

I really couldn't care less about you. I am concerned somewhat about people getting
misinformation because they believe you to be a credible source. I think with this last
thread, you blew away any last remaining shreds of credibility.

Quote:
At least I know from where my "obsession" comes. I'm very passionate about affordable products that play with the big boys because more people can own and enjoy better sound. The democratization of high-end, rather than a exclusive, elitist social club. If that's an obsession, then I'm pretty content with that.


Yeah, John - we know you're fighting for "truth, justice, and the American way"...OH BROTHER!


ohn,

The drivers of the Apogee dipoles are ribbons - they are symmetric front to back.
They look, and are; the same from the front as from the back.

Now explain how a symmetric ribbon driver radiates 88% rearward and only
12% to the front?

As anybody should know, a dipole radiates 50% forward and 50% backward,
wilth nulls to the side because the front and back waves are of opposite polarity.

Quote:
Said "pre-ringing" is also designed cleverly to self-cancel.

ROTFLMAO!!! It "self-cancels" - pray tell how THAT happens!!!

If the "pre-ringing" was designed to "self-cancel" then why was it picked
up by John Atkinson's microphone so as to generate the traces seen in
Fig. 11?

http://www.stereophile.com/standlou...nht/index4.html

The graphs don't lie - the graphs that is!!

You just fabricated the "self-cancel" out of whole cloth. Are there any limits to
the degree to which you will dishevel to promote this product that you sell?

The response of a speaker to an impulse should look like the impulse - that is a
flat zero until the impulse, then it should jump up. The raw drivers of the NHT Xd
do that as John Atkinson shows in Fig. 10.

However, when driven by the XdA, the response is that of Fig. 11. The part of the
signal that is responsible for the "pre-ring" has a lesser latency in the digital filter
than the latency of the main impulse in the digital filter. So while the main part
of the impulse is still in the DEQX processor - the "pre-ring" part of the output is
moving the drivers and launching a wave into the air - a wave that is propagating
toward the listener or microphone that the main part of the signal can never
"catch-up" to and cancel.

The "pre-ring" is something that digital filters like the DEQX can do - and high
order, steep slope digital filters are more prone to "pre-ringing" than lower
order filters.

The "pre-ring" is just part of the cost that NHT [ and its customers ] paid to
simplify NHT's design problems. It's similar to the analogy with the stealth
aircraft. You seem to be arguing the analog that flat-faceted aircraft are the
ultimate in stealth aircraft design. The flat facets of the F-117A were a stopgap
because that's the best that Lockheed could do at the time.

NHT / DEQX should fix the "pre-ring" as they move the technology forward.

You want to enshrine NHT's stopgap technology.

Just as the aircraft industry went on to develop computer software to accurately
model Maxwell's Equation so that stealth technology can be incorporated into
an aircraft with the sleek gentle curves and sophistication of the Northrup-Grumman
B-2 Spirit; the digital filter technology should evolve so that stopgap technologies
are no longer required. It makes the job of the design engineers more difficult -
but it results in a better product for the customer.

Just as the U.S. Air Force now has the B-2, which is a much more capable stealth
platform than the F-117A; I'm sure that future offerings from NHT will greatly surpass
their flawed first attempt. Stay tuned.

John

I will not be too precise in my my recollection but in the original XD thread, it seems like you thought that Stereophile measurements were going to show how superior the XD are to any other speakers.. So what is happening here?

What I think many here are asking you is to display a certain amount of good faith and .. well .... sportsmanship for the lack of a better word. Anyone considering a pair of speakers north of $5,000 should consider the XD no doubt but it is not in itself the end-of-all speakers. Good it is.. The best ? You know it is not...

Greg

John reminds me of a guy, I had in my class in High School who had the ability to get under everybody skin save for the teachers whom he managed to have on his side without being the proverbial teachers's pet. So let it go.. John knows better than anyone when he is wrong and when he is pulling our collective legs...


John,

Dispersion in and of itself; or for its own sake isn't the hallmark of a great
speaker. Besides, I'm talking about how smooth is the response at the listener's
position as a function of frequency due to changes in dispersion - not a graph
that's an average or normalized. Perhaps you think the on-axis response
is ruler flat - but this graph appears to be normalized about the on-axis
response. So any dip with frequency would approx. divide out so long as
both the off-axis and on-axis response dipped.

The dispersion of a dipole is more restictive than a monopole. Yes - that means
it has a small "sweet spot". That's fine with me. I really don't care how the
speaker sounds 45 degrees off-axis because I'm not listening to it there.

Yes - the Xd has wide dispersion - it "sprays" sound all over the room as well as
that venerable old firehose of a speaker - the Bose 901!!

The Xd also "rings like the Liberty Bell". Scratch that - the Liberty Bell is more
muted since it cracked - and it's also "causal" - it doesn't ring until you hit it!!

However, I grow weary of your "fantasies" of the Xd being the most accurate,
or whatever...

WOW, way to show your true colors. You are seriously disturbed! And FYI, YOU will be the one that causes this thread to close.

John, just be done with him. He obviously needs seriously help. Don't play into his games; he is only trying to get you banned again. Although you and I like to argue, it is for fun. This guy is getting way too personal. Ignore him!

Zissou, you need some serious guidance and I hope you find it. Good luck in life to you man (you'll need it).

Nuance out :D

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
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post #177 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 08:45 AM
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Wow. I think you've just taken the step from annoying and stupid to deranged.

What's next, threatening letters made from cut up magazines?

PS, Nuance, yep, I'm out of this one. Zissou needs serious psychological help and I'm just going to let him talk to himself at this point.

John
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post #178 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall
Wow. I think you've just taken the step from annoying and stupid to deranged.

What's next, threatening letters made from cut up magazines?

PS, Nuance, yep, I'm out of this one. Zissou needs serious psychological help and I'm just going to let him talk to himself at this point.
Good choice John. There're thousands of examples of just how disturbed you are all over the net.
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post #179 of 179 Old 06-22-2006, 10:12 AM
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