Bose Attack. Ouch that Hurts - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 09:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by davdev
There are plenty of discussions on lower end speakers like JBL, .
Ummm OK....not!

http://www.e-hifi.com.au/uploads/reviews/K2_1202.pdf

JBL's K2 is The Height of Excellence
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By the end of day one, this reviewer came to the conclusion that this was the finest pair of speakers to ever grace his listening room
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post #92 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 09:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbrunet
Ummm OK....not!

http://www.e-hifi.com.au/uploads/reviews/K2_1202.pdf

JBL's K2 is The Height of Excellence
Did you happen to notice that those cost lb20,000 (about US $40,000!) :eek:
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post #93 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by PULLIAMM
I upgraded my brother's stereo from $320 Bose speakers to $120 Athena speakers and it was a major improvement. :cool:
If all you wanted was a "major" improvement in sound quality, you could have replaced the Bose speakers with a bird that squawked when you kicked it. :D

Seriously, the OP seems to have left, not to return. Why is this thread still alive?

EVERYONE MOVE ALONG, NOTHING TO SEE HERE!

Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards.
-Vernon Sanders Law
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post #94 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 09:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by davdev
While most of the more advanced audiophiles would never dream of owning these (...JBL) speakers,
Just pointing out the ignorance of this poster :)

Have a nice day!
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post #95 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbrunet
Just pointing out the ignorance of this poster :)

Have a nice day!

First of all, I am a JBL owner and I am by no means ignorant of the different ranges of product that JBL offers.

I was however refering to the fact that 99% of the threads here that refer to JBL are for the E-Series. Which in comparison to many of the speakers people have here are on the lower end. I am not knocking them, as I own them, and if you bothered to actually read my post, you would see that I said they offer a very good value for the money which is why in comparison to Bose the threads related to them remain civil.
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post #96 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 09:50 AM
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I have 'experienced' Bose and was impressed at the time since I have never heard real QUALITY speakers. The bass module was very weak to say the least, it just cannot touch the FR of any quality 10-15" sub and had tremendous amounts of distortion when I heard it.

The speakers were nice in that they were small, but that was about it. You just have to face reality, you need bigger drivers in the speaker to get quality sound and a decent FR with low distortion. Bose would be good for the person who knows nothing about Audio or just doesn't want to learn about Audio and just wants something very simple regardless of value.

Before you ask, I have auditioned many different types of quality speakers and have decided to build my own (following the Dayton RS WWMT design). I have also heard many different subwoofers ranging from the bad to the very good quality subwoofers. I am deciding to go with quad-18" infinite baffle installation.
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post #97 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davdev
This is a foolish statement. Are there better cars than Honda or Toyota, of course. Are there better in the same price range, less likely. Are there better in lower price ranges .. doubtfull.

While I do agree with you that Honda and Toyota provide the best price/value vehicles (Consumer reports rates the Honda Oddesy a 94/100, way above any luxury car which typically score 50's/100) I was not suggesting Bose fits this description.

I was saying that for many consumers, the Bose systems provide a solution that many other indy speaker sets cannot. Buying a Toyonda, you know you are getting a decent, 'middle of the road,' functional device/vehicle that is going to bring you from point a to point b really well. To say people are foolish for being satisfied with regular/standard quality is snobbery. Right?

And furthermore, Bose offers some things to many consumers that Paradigm and co. cannot:

Simplicity. - Do I need to elaborate here? DVD, audio, video, reciever, good speakers in 1 box. That is simplicity.

Aesthetics. - While anyone trying to argue that the aesthetics of Bose speakers are good/great will be met with burning pitchforks on this forum, you cannot deny that their displays catch you eye everytime you walk past them. I would suggest the only unattactive part is the pricetag.

Wow factor. - Here's where marketing comes in. People will be wowed by Bose. When they come into your home, the brand recognition will trigger 'ooh and aah.' Of course not from audiophiles, but they are a minority. And if you think it is vain to own something partly because it impresses people, get back to me.
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post #98 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 09:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by davdev
I was however refering to the fact that 99% of the threads here that refer to JBL are for the E-Series.
Apologizes!
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post #99 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by GaryZ06
he Bose was running the bass module and 2 double cubes vs. just the RTi4's.The receiver was I think an older Sony.
I'm sorry but you set yourself up for disaster here. The RTi4s are not my favorite speakers but they are pretty decent and should have easily destroyed the Bose gear even with your brother's newbie ears.

1. The Sony receiver does not help at all---you should have brought your own AVR over.

2. Cubes with bass modules, even as abysmally crappy a bass module as the Bose, will still provide more of the boomy bass low end that newbies like than the RTi4 by itself supported by a crappy Sony receiver...I would expect the RTi4 without decent power behind it and without a decent sub to sound very thin and unimpressive.

I know this would probably be a pain in the neck but if you truly wish to enlighten your brother, you ought to redo this listening test with a real receiver and real sub behind your Polks...most of the posters here would be sure to thank you rather than having to go through the arduous process of educating your brother.
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post #100 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 10:15 AM
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michaelkingdom, I guess simplicity does trump sound quality for some people. Those people are just ignorant because for less money and a little bit of setup, they could have something much nicer. It sucks to be those people! ;)

People will be wowed by Bose? Sure, if they don't know what good sound is, or if they DO know what good sound is and are wowed (shocked) that someone spent that much on crap.

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post #101 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davdev
This is a foolish statement. Are there better cars than Honda or Toyota, of course. Are there better in the same price range, less likely. Are there better in lower price ranges .. doubtfull.

The fact is the Honda and Toyota make great products that are properly priced for what they offer. Bose makes an average product that is drastically over priced.
Exactly!

I think of Bose as the Budweiser of audio. However a six-pack of Bud is not sold for $30.
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post #102 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 10:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by edster922
Exactly!

I think of Bose as the Budweiser of audio. However a six-pack of Bud is not sold for $30.
Ouch, that is libel...against Budweiser! :D
(Because U Deserve What Every Individual Should Enjoy Regularly.)
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post #103 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 10:53 AM
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Nuance, the reason I am here is to research and find the best for my money. I won't be buying any HTIB systems, ever. My nature to tool and pry is just way too strong and I am not willing to pay a premium for what I can get for less. I suspect this is true for the majority of people here.

That said, this is not a mainstream quality. The average consumer likes it simple. I bet everyone here has shprtcuts they take in their consumerism where they don't research things ad naseum. It is just convenience.

As far as wow factor, try telling a girl you are trying to impress you have:

A) 'set of Kefs.' (sounds like you have a pair of cats who choke on hairballs a lot.)

B) 'a complete Bose system' (you sound like a player.)
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post #104 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 10:55 AM
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renips, I have no opinion on Bose either way, but I thought your post was hilarious, especially various descriptions of your brother.

Regards,
Doug
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post #105 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 10:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelkingdom

As far as wow factor, try telling a girl you are trying to impress you have:

A) 'set of Kefs.' (sounds like you have a pair of cats who choke on hairballs a lot.)

B) 'a complete Bose system' (you sound like a player.)
That is just sad.
There has to be a way to train young women to know the difference between good sound an utter crap like Bose. A smart girl would say "Wow! You wasted your money on Blose? What an idiot!" :D
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post #106 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelkingdom
Nuance, the reason I am here is to research and find the best for my money. I won't be buying any HTIB systems, ever. My nature to tool and pry is just way too strong and I am not willing to pay a premium for what I can get for less. I suspect this is true for the majority of people here.

That said, this is not a mainstream quality. The average consumer likes it simple. I bet everyone here has shprtcuts they take in their consumerism where they don't research things ad naseum. It is just convenience.

As far as wow factor, try telling a girl you are trying to impress you have:

A) 'set of Kefs.' (sounds like you have a pair of cats who choke on hairballs a lot.)

B) 'a complete Bose system' (you sound like a player.)
Well, it's good to know that you won't fall prey to the marketing scams. Auditioning is the only way to go about purchasing speakers (direct comparison auditions would be even better). Seriously though, you sound like you are in Bose's corner chanting them on for the win.

As far as A and B go, I wouldn't make the mistake of trying to impress ANY female with my audio equipment. Most females don't care about that kind of stuff so it's not worth the time. I have a wife, I know better. ;)

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post #107 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 11:01 AM
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Gee, this is fun!! Can we talk about cables next? Who wants to start?

How about this: "There is no difference between using coat hanger and solid silver cables that cost as much as a small car." or should it be "unless your $10,000 cable is braided like a pretzel your speakers will sound like Bose!"

Jewel, you aren't typical and most of us understand that so you can't really represent a woman's view point in the sense that it is referred to. This is absolutely not meant to be a negative comment in any way.

Not everyone buys stuff (speakers as an example) for pure quality reasons. Sometimes there are mitigating circumstances. I was forced forced to buy a less than sterling performing LCD for my bedroom because the Sony CRT (which by the way, I was perfectly happy with for a bedroom TV) I had wouldn't fit in the new armoire. Fortunately we are far enough away so I can't see the flaws very well.

Apparently someones' know it all brother was yanking his brothers chain pretty well over a Bose purchase (gee - do brothers do that?) so now it his brothers turn to extract a little grief since the comparison didn't go well (do they call that poetic justice)
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post #108 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by tonygeno
Name a few, please.
Wilson Audio speakers would fit into this list, and they cost FAAAAAAAR more!

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post #109 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 11:13 AM
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There is good to be said about Bose, and bad to be said about Bose, and most of it has already been said many times over in many threads.

The problem I have with this thread in particular is that it revolves around a flawed test. The test was flawed because an entire Bose system (with a "sub) was tested against a pair of bookshelf speakers (not known for their bass response and without a sub), because the speakers were not calibrated, and because the test was not blind. I suspect that the test was also flawed by not using a great variety of music (classical, jazz, vocal, and rock) during the test and by not playing the music at anything near the music was not played at levels that you would hear during a live performance of each type of music.

Thus, the test really shows nothing and any comments based upon the test, as opposed to the specs of the two speakers involved, are really worthless.

A valid test should be between two complete (and calibrated) systems, playing a wide variety of music, and should seek to determine which system is better at making you believe you are at a live concert. That is, after all, the goal of music reproduction, isn't it?

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post #110 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnilsson
There is good to be said about Bose, and bad to be said about Bose, and most of it has already been said many times over in many threads.

The problem I have with this thread in particular is that it revolves around a flawed test. The test was flawed because an entire Bose system (with a "sub) was tested against a pair of bookshelf speakers (not known for their bass response and without a sub), because the speakers were not calibrated, and because the test was not blind. I suspect that the test was also flawed by not using a great variety of music (classical, jazz, vocal, and rock) during the test and by not playing the music at anything near the music was not played at levels that you would hear during a live performance of each type of music.

Thus, the test really shows nothing and any comments based upon the test, as opposed to the specs of the two speakers involved, are really worthless.

A valid test should be between two complete (and calibrated) systems, playing a wide variety of music, and should seek to determine which system is better at making you believe you are at a live concert. That is, after all, the goal of music reproduction, isn't it?
And besides that, they didn't even use MONSTER CABLES! ;)

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post #111 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance
Well, it's good to know that you won't fall prey to the marketing scams. Auditioning is the only way to go about purchasing speakers (direct comparison auditions would be even better). Seriously though, you sound like you are in Bose's corner chanting them on for the win.

As far as A and B go, I wouldn't make the mistake of trying to impress ANY female with my audio equipment. Most females don't care about that kind of stuff so it's not worth the time. I have a wife, I know better. ;)
The only corner I am in is the one fighting againt groupthink.

As far as impressing women, I'd guess Bose is your safest bet. Unless you can get some speakers that light up, sparkle and freshen the air. Oh wait, that's the Febreeze plug-in aroma nightlight. (As a tangent, I wonder if there is an air freshner forum where people debate the pros and cons of various air freshening devices? Some people get the Oreck air pureifier while others just use glade.)

Seriously though, the emotion behind Bose bashing has no place in a scientific forum.
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post #112 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 11:28 AM
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I think if you want to impress a woman with your audio system you need to play her music on it for her. Unfortunately, my wife can't tell the difference between good and bad sound so...

I think this thread has gone far enough. Lets get back to the things that matter folks. Shame on me for contributing so much to this silly trolling thread!

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post #113 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnilsson
Thus, the test really shows nothing and any comments based upon the test, as opposed to the specs of the two speakers involved, are really worthless.
all true, but it should be noted that Bose does not provide specs on ANY of its equipment since it swears that they are irrelevant. :D
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post #114 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelkingdom

As far as impressing women, I'd guess Bose is your safest bet.
If you're trying to impress women with your sound equipment you're barking up the wrong tree to begin with...
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post #115 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 11:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by edster922
all true, but it should be noted that Bose does not provide specs on ANY of its equipment since it swears that they are irrelevant. :D
The real reason that Bose does not provide specs is that those specs would prove just how bad their stuff really is.
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post #116 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 12:29 PM
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Since this thread is dead now due to the usual subjects (take it both ways,) let's bring up another somewhat contentious topic.

"Specs"

Specs are given by the manufacturer and magazine reviews.

Should we listen first and then look at specs?

Or use the specs to weed out speakers and then train our ears to like flat anechoic speakers which are not flat in your room?

How easy is it to manipulate specs? W/o the ability to audition equipment do specs play a larger role ie Internet Direct companies? Is there a marketing push by them to give specs more value?

This should be a meatier discussion w/o mob rule and maybe needs it's own thread, but this one is like a car accident and everyone is "rubbernecking" it here.
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post #117 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdilM
Since this thread is dead now due to the usual subjects (take it both ways,) let's bring up another somewhat contentious topic.

"Specs"

Specs are given by the manufacturer and magazine reviews.

Should we listen first and then look at specs?

Or use the specs to weed out speakers and then train our ears to like flat anechoic speakers which are not flat in your room?

How easy is it to manipulate specs? W/o the ability to audition equipment do specs play a larger role ie Internet Direct companies? Is there a marketing push by them to give specs more value?

This should be a meatier discussion w/o mob rule and maybe needs it's own thread, but this one is like a car accident and everyone is "rubbernecking" it here.
We should listen first, then look at measurements. However, we should have a point of reference as to what "good" or "accurate" sound is. If one does not have a reference, just purchase whatever you prefer. If one does (like myself), purchase which ever speaker and electronics get you the closest to that reference.

Once you determine what sound you prefer, yes, you can use the measurements to weed out some choices. However, measurements don't tell the entire tale, so listening is still the smart thing to do. Of course, if the speaker is +/- 20dB and you know that you prefer accurate sound, those will obviously not due.

Manipulate specs? Well, a lot of manufacturers do it. It's usually not horribly mis-advertised, but a few Hz could be enough to make or break a deal. If you have the right gear, you can measure for yourself to determine if these "specs" are indeeded correct.

Many ID companies do provide measurements in order to give the consumer an idea of what the speaker will sound like; this is a good idea on their part in my opinion. The 30 day trial period is also a great idea. But again, if you don't already know what sound you prefer or you don't have a reference, you will probably just end up keeping whatever you purchased (whether ID or from a B&M) because you didn't partake in comparison auditions. This may be why so many people keep their ID purchased stuff; who knows?

Edit: By "specs" I assumed you meant measurements. Specs are useless bits of information as many manufacturers could simply spec their products at anything they wanted to if it were not for measurements. The only time I would pay attention to specs is if I was purchasing a subwoofer (how low in Hz it can go) or if I couldn't find any 3rd party measurements on the speakers/equipment in question.

Also, it may be a better idea to simply create a new thread on the subject since this one has pretty much died.

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post #118 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 12:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdilM
Or use the specs to weed out speakers and then train our ears to like flat anechoic speakers which are not flat in your room?
Yes AdilM, I think a SM segway is a good idea..

FWIW, specifications are helpful, but they pale in comparison to our eyes, & ears, & brain, in respect to perceptual abilities. In response to the "train our ears" remark, I think this is a bad idea. If you are ever inspired by anything (even Bose) that should be real enough, no matter how many AVS' question your sanity :)
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post #119 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renips
Powerful stuff coming from an AVS Gold Club Member with over 11K ****ing posts. How in the Hell do you rack up 11K worth of posts? Maybe with the type of short 10 word inarticulate posts up above.
Just so everyone knows the score:

User Name......Posts Per Day
madpoet............8.40
renips..............12.77

Now that we know how one attains 11,000+ posts, let me add to the Bose debate. I attempted to add Bose to my showroom last year so that I could offer my customers the opportunity to hear Bose next to PSB speakers. I was told that I needed a dedicated room just for Bose, with no speakers from other brands present. When I mentioned Best Buy as a venue that does not meet that criteria the marketing rep stated Best Buy has no real A/B comparison capabilities. Long story short - if I carry anything other than Bose and the Bose is not in a dedicated room all by itself they wouldn't let me carry Bose. And they WOULD send someone out to look at my location on "spot" visits. When I stated I was by appointment only because I can spend hours with one customer at a time, Bose said they do not deal with retailers without set hours.

I do allow anyone who buys a Bose product (or any product for that matter) to come in and hook it up and compare it.

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post #120 of 941 Old 08-07-2006, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CriticalListener
Just so everyone knows the score:

User Name......Posts Per Day
madpoet............8.40
renips..............12.77

Now that we know how one attains 11,000+ posts, let me add to the Bose debate. I attempted to add Bose to my showroom last year so that I could offer my customers the opportunity to hear Bose next to PSB speakers. I was told that I needed a dedicated room just for Bose, with no speakers from other brands present. When I mentioned Best Buy as a venue that does not meet that criteria the marketing rep stated Best Buy has no real A/B comparison capabilities. Long story short - if I carry anything other than Bose and the Bose is not in a dedicated room all by itself they wouldn't let me carry Bose. And they WOULD send someone out to look at my location on "spot" visits. When I stated I was by appointment only because I can spend hours with one customer at a time, Bose said they do not deal with retailers without set hours.

I do allow anyone who buys a Bose product (or any product for that matter) to come in and hook it up and compare it.

You could always Buy a Bose set and use it as a demo for comparisons. Bose can't stop you from using a piece of equipment that you own ... or can they?

The 2K or so could be a write-off.
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