Focal - JM Lab Owner's Thread - Page 220 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #6571 of 6582 Old 10-19-2014, 08:14 PM
Advanced Member
 
Sean Spamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 701
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Liked: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwerty_88 View Post
My listening position will be around 12feet away. Yes i'll be using one JL F113. Planning on a Atmos setup with 4 overheads for 5.1.4 setup. Do you any experience with onkyo and Focal electras?
Although I've owned Onkyo and demo'd Focal, it's irrelevant whether I think they "mix together" well. Your primary focus of purchase should be features (atmos in your case/ room correction) and whether or not it has enough power to reach reference and above during peaks. You're looking at a max of 105db at your LP during peaks (85db reference). From 12 feet away with your LCR speakers you'll hit 103.5db with 100 wpc. [http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html] Unfortunately with most AVRs they measure power by measuring 2 channels, each additional speaker you add to the receiver diminishes the output and power to each separate channel. You're running a sub, which means it should take a significant amount of load of your AVR by running all the LFE - but to be safe I'd recommend something like the X4100 [http://www.denon.co.uk/uk/product/pa...tid=avrx4100w] which 1. offers 5.1.4 Atmos (with the addition of an amp) 2. Has Audyssey room correction software (arguably the best, with the exception of Anthem's ARC) 3. Built in Blue tooth, Built in Wifi etc.

You'll want to ensure your LCR has the full 100wpc - and you'll need to add an amp anyways for 5.1.4, so I'd pick up an Emotiva XPA-200 amp [https://emotiva.com/products/amplifiers/xpa-200] which will give you 150wpc into your L and R front speakers. This gives you more than enough power to hit your dynamic reference peaks with ease, and frees up the amps in the AVR to do the same for the rest of your speakers. In addition if you move on to a different AVR in the future you can keep the amp to allow it to fill the same / different needs (such as powering a zone 2 or 3).

Last but not least, if you can hold off - wait until next year when HDMI 2.0 AND HDCP 2.2 are available at the same time, as without it you'll have difficulty playing back some 4k content even with a 4k screen. This is a VERY important consideration to look into if you're planning on keeping your AVR for any length of time. More info can be found here: http://www.audioholics.com/hdtv-form...i-2.0-hdcp-2.2

No amp / AVR will make your Focal's sound "smoother" or "more refined" or any other nonsense. If an AVR colors the sound you hear it's either 1. a tube amp (and you're not using it for home theater) or 2. broken. Anyone who tells you differently is pulling the wool over your eyes so beware.

Cheers!
ambesolman likes this.

Last edited by Sean Spamilton; 10-19-2014 at 10:34 PM.
Sean Spamilton is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #6572 of 6582 Old 10-20-2014, 09:30 AM
Senior Member
 
kzhtoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 273
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Whatever makes you sleep at night, buddy.
SuperPoser likes this.
kzhtoo is offline  
post #6573 of 6582 Old 10-21-2014, 07:09 AM
Member
 
Greg121986's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
Posts: 189
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post
No amp / AVR will make your Focal's sound "smoother" or "more refined" or any other nonsense. If an AVR colors the sound you hear it's either 1. a tube amp (and you're not using it for home theater) or 2. broken. Anyone who tells you differently is pulling the wool over your eyes so beware.
This doesn't correlate with my own experiences. I have in my possession an Anthem PVA7, Audio-GD Master 10, and Luxman 505UX. All sound very different with my Electra 1028Be. Source is an Oppo BDP-105. Am I insane, or do I just have ears?
SuperPoser likes this.
Greg121986 is offline  
post #6574 of 6582 Old 10-21-2014, 07:14 AM
Advanced Member
 
Sean Spamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 701
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Liked: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg121986 View Post
This doesn't correlate with my own experiences. I have in my possession an Anthem PVA7, Audio-GD Master 10, and Luxman 505UX. All sound very different with my Electra 1028Be. Source is an Oppo BDP-105. Am I insane, or do I just have ears?
You're not insane, but you are experiencing a combination of listener bias (expectation that they sound different that actually makes them seem to sound different) and experiencing slightly different volumes with each component. Did you level match them for volume with a SPL meter when you switched out components? - If you were to do so, and had a friend switch between amps while you were blindfolded (double blind test) - you'd be unable to tell the difference. Guaranteed. If you've convinced yourself differently you owe it to yourself to do some research into this. If you'd prefer not to and are happy with what you think you believe that's fine too - and good luck with your search
Sean Spamilton is online now  
post #6575 of 6582 Old 10-21-2014, 08:31 AM
Member
 
SuperPoser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Sean,
you previously posted this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

...
"Richard Clark is an audio professional. Like many audiophiles, he originally believed the magazines and marketing materials that different amplifier topologies and components colored the sound in unique, clearly audible ways. He later did experiments to quantify and qualify these effects, and was surprised to find them inaudible when volume and other factors were matched.

His challenge is an offer of $10,000 of his own money to anyone who could identify which of two amplifiers was which, by listening only, under a set of rules that he conceived to make sure they both measure “good enough” and are set up the same. Reports are that thousands of people have taken the test, and none has passed the test. Nobody has been able to show an audible difference between two amps under the test rules." (Source: http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/)

Here's some additional threads by AVS members who generally agree that there is no distinguishable difference between the sounds of amps. Again, as per my original post about volume, if you push an amp hard enough, and drive it to clipping it will produce distortion, in which case obviously a bigger amp, such as the one found in the 3805, would be preferable. But as I said the OP would have to have a HUGE space to have the need to push it to that extent - and even so would be in the hearing damage range while doing it.
...
And I replied with this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperPoser View Post


This is an interesting article... It is basically stating that Richard Clark is able to use an equalizer to match the output of an amp with the unequalized output of another amp. And no one has been able to tell the difference. Impressive for sure. I am not that good at setting the equalizer manually, nor is the Denon AVR 2805 auto-tune.

On to your next topic, the above referenced article does claim one important fact, and that is not all amps are linear which is a major reason some amps do not sound as good as other amps... (The reason he would need to use an equalizer in order to obtain the linear response from the amp.)
Typically higher quality amps will be more linear from 20Hz to 20kHz.
(Another spec to consider is the signal to noise ratio...)

The amp will color the sound, as will the source unit and anything else modifying the audio single... the specs will state how much the amp will color the sound.
However, it is said that a 3db differential is generally the minimum a human ear can detect, so it would be difficult to detect a 3db drop in a frequency range. But if several components have the same issue in the same frequency range, it is possible the coloration may be detected by the listener. If this were not true, Richard Clark would not need to equalize one of the amps in order to perform his test...

I agree with your idea, that for qwerty_88's application, he should look at the functions of the receiver. For this application, that would be my suggestion too.
But, I fail to comprehend what you don't understand about the fact that output responses at various frequencies will be different from amplifier to amplifier. (Likewise with any electronic device that handles the audio single.)

Also, using a statement such as
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post
Anyone who tells you differently is pulling the wool over your eyes so beware.
is rather interesting for someone who also suggests using research.
Feel free to take some freshman or softmore level electrical engineering classes in analog electronics if you don't believe me, or if you don't believe research, or if you don't believe the links you used in your previous posts.

Again, your actual suggestion is what I too would suggest, but your extra comments are incorrect.
SuperPoser is offline  
post #6576 of 6582 Old 10-21-2014, 09:48 AM
Advanced Member
 
Sean Spamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 701
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Liked: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperPoser View Post
Sean,
you previously posted this:



And I replied with this:




I agree with your idea, that for qwerty_88's application, he should look at the functions of the receiver. For this application, that would be my suggestion too.
But, I fail to comprehend what you don't understand about the fact that output responses at various frequencies will be different from amplifier to amplifier. (Likewise with any electronic device that handles the audio single.)

Also, using a statement such as is rather interesting for someone who also suggests using research.
Feel free to take some freshman or softmore level electrical engineering classes in analog electronics if you don't believe me, or if you don't believe research, or if you don't believe the links you used in your previous posts.

Again, your actual suggestion is what I too would suggest, but your extra comments are incorrect.
First off - by your generous invitation to take EE classes I'm going to infer that YOU (superposer) are indeed an EE. In which case I find it surprising you're suggesting that the OP buy an amp / AVR based on superior THD or Linearity. I'd assume you'd know that just about EVERY modern day AVR has less than 1% THD (considered to be inaudible to humans) and that they all have an extremely flat response from 20hz to 20khz. As such I can only assume that you have a vested interest in this discussion; my assumption being that either 1. you work in sales in the audio industry or 2. you've spent a lot of money on an amp whose "sound" you prefer and won't be convinced that it doesn't have a specific "sound" at all.

Of course it could be a combination of the above, in which case I'd invite you to take have a look at this introductory course I think might be of use to you going forward: http://www.luc.edu/quinlan/mba/business-ethics-courses/

To the OP - I can only encourage you to do your own research before you spend your hard earned money on something that has been marketed to you as being superior, when in fact it's just typical audio industry snake oil. Here's an article in reference to superposers assertions dispelling some of the myths propagated by those that would convince you otherwise. There are many many more like it, this one can get you started. http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amp...-in-amplifiers
Sean Spamilton is online now  
post #6577 of 6582 Old 10-21-2014, 10:12 AM
Member
 
Greg121986's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
Posts: 189
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Is Audioholics an unequivocally neutral source for information? Or, are they also a for-profit entity that relies on ad revenues to generate and maintain their ability to deliver content and compensate their staff? Has anyone noticed the constant Emotiva "Featured Reviews" that are on the front page every time this website loads? Can I trust that the information they present to me is the truth and is no way influenced by their revenues from advertisers and paid reviews? Are they trying to tell me that all of the components they put on their website sound the same and nothing they write actually matters? The contradiction of capitalist marketplace and audiophile double-blind truth is at war here!

I took a screenshot from the Audioholics main page and highlighted a few key words from their preview text which seems to be designed to convince me to click the link and read the article. This doesn't read like a neutral message that is designed to spread the truth that all audio components reviewed on this website are "the same." It appears more to me that they are attempting to convince readers to purchase Emotiva's products, or any other products that may receive a glowing review on their Featured Reviews and Articles page.

I feel like both sides of this argument cannot possibly be right.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Audioholics.jpg
Views:	12
Size:	232.0 KB
ID:	323074  
SuperPoser likes this.
Greg121986 is offline  
post #6578 of 6582 Old 10-21-2014, 10:36 AM
gsr
Oppo Beta Group
 
gsr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,550
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 125 Post(s)
Liked: 183
I forgot - am I in the Audio Theory forum or in a Focal thread in the Speakers forum? Just wondering... But I'd suggest that the audio theory discussion be taken to the proper forum so we can get back to discussing Focal speakers.
SuperPoser likes this.
gsr is offline  
post #6579 of 6582 Old 10-21-2014, 10:59 AM
Member
 
SuperPoser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post
First off - by your generous invitation to take EE classes I'm going to infer that YOU (superposer) are indeed an EE. In which case I find it surprising you're suggesting that the OP buy an amp / AVR based on superior THD or Linearity. I'd assume you'd know that just about EVERY modern day AVR has less than 1% THD (considered to be inaudible to humans) and that they all have an extremely flat response from 20hz to 20khz. As such I can only assume that you have a vested interest in this discussion; my assumption being that either 1. you work in sales in the audio industry or 2. you've spent a lot of money on an amp whose "sound" you prefer and won't be convinced that it doesn't have a specific "sound" at all.

Of course it could be a combination of the above, in which case I'd invite you to take have a look at this introductory course I think might be of use to you going forward: http://www.luc.edu/quinlan/mba/business-ethics-courses/

To the OP - I can only encourage you to do your own research before you spend your hard earned money on something that has been marketed to you as being superior, when in fact it's just typical audio industry snake oil. Here's an article in reference to superposers assertions dispelling some of the myths propagated by those that would convince you otherwise. There are many many more like it, this one can get you started. http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amp...-in-amplifiers

Sean,
I did NOT suggest the OP make a purchase based on superior THD or Linearity. (Did you read that from what I typed???) I DID suggest the OP should look at the functions of the receiver. I agree with your suggestion of the Denon receiver and the Emotiva amp, specifically based on the functions available in the receiver, NOT on the THD or Linearity. (FWIW, I would also suggest looking at used amps to save a few more dollars.)

I am pointing out the fact that every electronic device that does anything to the audio signal WILL modify the audio signal. It is possible the modification is not not audible, but if several devices have dips or peaks at the same frequency range, it is highly possible it would be audible. When you say this is not true on an online forum, it is possible someone new will read it and believe it. I am correcting your error to prevent someone new from believing your statements. At the minimum, someone new will at least see that not everyone agrees with your statements and they may do their own research or believe what they wish.

In reply to your speculations:
I am an electrical engineer and these things you are arguing with are things that are studied in depth in Analog Electronics and in the design and theory of transistor design. These topics are briefly covered in some lower level classes too (Freshman & Softmore years). In electrical labs, transistor response is typically tested and studied.
I have no money invested in this game, I do not work in the audio industry and own no stock in any audio companies.
I also do not have "expensive" electronics, although it is old and needs updated... (I would love a newer 11.1 system or whatever the latest and greatest is this week but haven't gotten around to upgrading. I have been thinking about a refurbished Denon 4520ci for $1000, but that is a lot of money to spend on a refurbished unit IMO.)
BTW, I have taken Ethics classes in the past... Perhaps that is the reason why I felt it necessary to reply.

Sean, you offer some very useful advice in some of your posts, but then you also offer incorrect info in some of your posts. I am simply attempting to correct miss-information to prevent others from taking that miss-information to heart.
Doctor Morbius likes this.
SuperPoser is offline  
post #6580 of 6582 Old 10-21-2014, 11:00 AM
Member
 
SuperPoser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post
I forgot - am I in the Audio Theory forum or in a Focal thread in the Speakers forum? Just wondering... But I'd suggest that the audio theory discussion be taken to the proper forum so we can get back to discussing Focal speakers.
My bad gsr, good call ;o)
SuperPoser is offline  
post #6581 of 6582 Old 10-21-2014, 11:52 AM
Member
 
Greg121986's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
Posts: 189
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 16
I also want to talk more about how awesome my Focal Electra 1028 Be speakers are, and less about opinions on "audio theory."

In short, my Electra 1028 Be are spectacular, and I adore them. I never want to give them up, I never want to let them dowwwn.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Rick_Astley.jpg
Views:	10
Size:	12.2 KB
ID:	323178  
Greg121986 is offline  
post #6582 of 6582 Old Yesterday, 05:18 PM
Senior Member
 
Doctor Morbius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 244
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Music Direct has updated their closeout prices on some Focals. They've added a couple of models as well.

I could have saved $119 on my Chorus 826Vs had I waited a year.

1: Sony DVP-S7000 | Denon DVD-2900 | Laptop > Emotiva XDA-2 > Emotiva Control Freak > Crown XLS2000 > Focal 826V | Def Tech BP2000 | (2) DIY 15" Subs
2: Computer > Parasound Zdac > Emotiva Control Freak > Acurus A150 > Focal 706V | Def Tech SM450 | Velodyne F-1000B Sub
Doctor Morbius is offline  
Reply Speakers

Tags
Focal , Focal 705v , Focal Chorus 836 V , Focal 716v Floor Standing Speakers , Focal 706v Chorus Loudspeakers , Focal Chorus 726v Floorstanding Speaker Light Walnut
Gear in this thread - 726v by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off