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post #451 of 7357 Old 02-14-2008, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Of course. But this guy is making the mistake of asking us about his, admittedly, very personal choices.

Well, we've planted the seed of knowledge. Let's hope it grows into something worthy of our approval.

- Tim


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post #452 of 7357 Old 02-14-2008, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Hank at Revel would have a heart attack to hear the words "Pioneer receiver" and "Studio2" in the same sentence. I just got chided a little for wanting to use the NAD Masters M3 dual mono integrated!


Do you carry Revel now?
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post #453 of 7357 Old 02-14-2008, 06:17 PM
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I do value the advice that has been provided and I’ve read each suggestion closely and more than once. I do want to optimize, to a degree, but within my perspective of comfort. I’m ok with toeing in speakers, forgoing the overpowering Salon2s, switching the component rack with the right side speaker (if that’s what Alimentall was implying), upgrading speaker wires to Cardas Golden Reference (or something equivalent), and upgrading the receiver (which is on the agenda but waiting for Pioneer’s next flagship to be released).

However, even if the improvement was night and day, I won’t be gluing foam pads to the walls, pulling the setup away from the front wall by a few feet or more, or elevating wires to avoid magnetic interference from the earth. At least I say that now, if I ever catch whatever fever you guys have then I’m sure I’d be just as critical a listener. Until then, I’ll be enjoying Revel’s Ultima2 line in a relatively simplistic and conventional fashion.

Thanks again for enlightening this humble grasshopper.
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post #454 of 7357 Old 02-14-2008, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-Geo View Post

However, even if the improvement was night and day, I won't be gluing foam pads to the walls, pulling the setup away from the front wall by a few feet or more, or elevating wires to avoid magnetic interference from the earth.

I hear you. The majority of people would agree with you. As much as I love good sound, if that room was the only room I could set up my gear, I wouldn't changing a thing, except the receiver. You set up is the da bomb. Love it! Just enjoy it.

I want to hear opinions from people who don't have a dog in the fight.
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post #455 of 7357 Old 02-14-2008, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-Geo View Post

I do value the advice that has been provided and I've read each suggestion closely and more than once. I do want to optimize, to a degree, but within my perspective of comfort. I'm ok with toeing in speakers, forgoing the overpowering Salon2s, switching the component rack with the right side speaker (if that's what Alimentall was implying), upgrading speaker wires to Cardas Golden Reference (or something equivalent), and upgrading the receiver (which is on the agenda but waiting for Pioneer's next flagship to be released).

However, even if the improvement was night and day, I won't be gluing foam pads to the walls, pulling the setup away from the front wall by a few feet or more, or elevating wires to avoid magnetic interference from the earth. At least I say that now, if I ever catch whatever fever you guys have then I'm sure I'd be just as critical a listener. Until then, I'll be enjoying Revel's Ultima2 line in a relatively simplistic and conventional fashion.

Thanks again for enlightening this humble grasshopper.

That's all we can do. I just want to add that few of us will tolerate gluing foam pads to the walls, either. There are aesthetically reasonable and, at times, invisible things but they all follow a committment to take this route. When/if you are ready, you will. Enjoy the Studio2s; they are great.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

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post #456 of 7357 Old 02-14-2008, 08:29 PM
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I have the m22 and c32 running through a pioneer elite 94, they sound good, I am thinking of adding a classe or parasound amp, I was curious if anyone else tried this and what was the results . I am open to opinions and alternatives thanks
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post #457 of 7357 Old 02-14-2008, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-Geo View Post

I do value the advice that has been provided and I've read each suggestion closely and more than once. I do want to optimize, to a degree, but within my perspective of comfort. I'm ok with toeing in speakers, forgoing the overpowering Salon2s, switching the component rack with the right side speaker (if that's what Alimentall was implying), upgrading speaker wires to Cardas Golden Reference (or something equivalent), and upgrading the receiver (which is on the agenda but waiting for Pioneer's next flagship to be released).

However, even if the improvement was night and day, I won't be gluing foam pads to the walls, pulling the setup away from the front wall by a few feet or more, or elevating wires to avoid magnetic interference from the earth. At least I say that now, if I ever catch whatever fever you guys have then I'm sure I'd be just as critical a listener. Until then, I'll be enjoying Revel's Ultima2 line in a relatively simplistic and conventional fashion.

Thanks again for enlightening this humble grasshopper.

Understood, and you don't need to go to extremes to get good sound. However, consider this-- think of your speakers as sound "projectors". The placement you have now is the equivilent of taking a high-end, high-definition video projector, aiming it at the corner of a wall and expecting a good picture. Sure, the picture is still high-def, but it's wrapped around the corner of a wall.

The sound EQ in your AVR will help straighten out the "sound picture", but it will never be as good as projecting the image on a proper screen (the "screen" being the equivilant to acoustic room treatment). Sans screen, you at least want to, if you have the option to, get the image projected onto the flat part of the wall. Meaning that you want to have your left and right speakers equidisant from the sidewalls, or to at least get the right speaker out of the corner as much as possible.

I certainly don't think that proper speaker positioning is anywhere near the level of tweako audiophile that you allude to by mentioning things like cable lifts and the like. I've been into this this hobby for the better part of 15 years, and even I don't go to those extremes.

Truth is, I've got a similar situation with my set-up, with one of my speakers just 1.5 feet from the side wall. Unfortunately, I have no more room to play with because of an entryway to the left of the system. If I could I would change the speaker positions in a heartbeat, but for now I use room EQ to take care of the gross errors in the bass from the speaker that is close to the wall.

Anyway, I wish you the best and I don't mean to preach. Just trying to help you get the most out of your system.

Cheers,

- Tim

- Tim


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post #458 of 7357 Old 02-14-2008, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-Geo View Post

I do value the advice that has been provided and I’ve read each suggestion closely and more than once. I do want to optimize, to a degree, but within my perspective of comfort. I’m ok with toeing in speakers, forgoing the overpowering Salon2s, switching the component rack with the right side speaker (if that’s what Alimentall was implying), upgrading speaker wires to Cardas Golden Reference (or something equivalent), and upgrading the receiver (which is on the agenda but waiting for Pioneer’s next flagship to be released).

However, even if the improvement was night and day, I won’t be gluing foam pads to the walls, pulling the setup away from the front wall by a few feet or more, or elevating wires to avoid magnetic interference from the earth. At least I say that now, if I ever catch whatever fever you guys have then I’m sure I’d be just as critical a listener. Until then, I’ll be enjoying Revel’s Ultima2 line in a relatively simplistic and conventional fashion.

Thanks again for enlightening this humble grasshopper.

In the great forum tradition of beating a dead horse, I get what you are saying and respect your candor but (and it’s a big one) an analogy was made earlier about all the foolish things (Ferrari’s big houses etc.) that people do with their money. I think a Ferrari comparison might be applicable here. It is not the best vehicle for off road use and doesn’t do well on unleaded gas. Now you can run those Studios on reg unleaded (AVR) and drive em down a rough road (poor placement, room acoustics issues) and if you’re happy with that and it gets you where you want to go …

In any case they are terrific loudspeakers and you are fortunate to own them.


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post #459 of 7357 Old 02-15-2008, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-Geo View Post

elevating wires to avoid magnetic interference from the earth

Are there people that really do that? It seems to me that one would have to elevate them 100s or 1000s of miles to reduce the effect of earth's magnetic field.

I guess there are some audiophiles who'll believe anything.
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post #460 of 7357 Old 02-15-2008, 06:08 AM
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I just purchased a pair of F12 loudspeakers....one unfortunately was damaged in shipping so now i have to wait to begin setup. Not so bad as I haven't yet decided on what receiver to pair it with, or whether her to go with amp and pre-amp.

Am leaning towards the Pio 94THX because I get a nice discount with the company that drops the price to about $900. Would otherwise go with the Denon.....any thoughts here?

Want to get the best sound possible from these speakers within a reasonable budget....with an emphasis on audio rather than home theater. Will upgrade as my apt and wallet gets bigger.
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post #461 of 7357 Old 02-15-2008, 06:10 AM
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hey panzer, you like the 94 elite? i was also going to buy this AND ws looking at classe amp. what classe is on your short list?
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post #462 of 7357 Old 02-16-2008, 11:31 PM
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I was able to demo the F12's in two different places this week, and I really wanted to like them, but I didn't at all.

In two different stores, the F12's sounded just plain bad to me. I highly doubt they could be as bad as they sounded to me... I don't know if the rooms were terrible or what, but they sounded very "wrong". I heard a Quad 22L2 in the same room and it sounded pretty good, so I have no idea what to think. The lower midrange sounded sucked out and the upper mids were very agressive and harsh.

I thought they sounded so bad, in fact, that it has to be a problem with both of the rooms I auditioned them in.
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post #463 of 7357 Old 02-17-2008, 07:15 AM
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I was able to demo the F12's in two different places this week, and I really wanted to like them, but I didn't at all.

In two different stores, the F12's sounded just plain bad to me. I highly doubt they could be as bad as they sounded to me... I don't know if the rooms were terrible or what, but they sounded very "wrong". I heard a Quad 22L2 in the same room and it sounded pretty good, so I have no idea what to think. The lower midrange sounded sucked out and the upper mids were very agressive and harsh.

I thought they sounded so bad, in fact, that it has to be a problem with both of the rooms I auditioned them in.

Sorry you had that experience, but there is no law against dealers doing a rotten or clueless job setting up speakers. Whether or not the F12s turn out to be your cup of tea, Revel does not produce speakers that sound "bad" when set up properly, or even close to properly. As with virtually all speakers discussed in these forums (regardless of manufacturer), the focus basically is on relative shades of "good."
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post #464 of 7357 Old 02-17-2008, 10:51 AM
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Yeah, pretty much all I can take away is that they may be more sensitive to room acoustics than the other speakers I heard. I highly doubt that what I heard was "normal" for them, especially considering their excellent measurements.
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post #465 of 7357 Old 02-17-2008, 11:00 AM
 
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In the great forum tradition of beating a dead horse, I get what you are saying and respect your candor but (and it’s a big one) an analogy was made earlier about all the foolish things (Ferrari’s big houses etc.) that people do with their money. I think a Ferrari comparison might be applicable here. It is not the best vehicle for off road use and doesn’t do well on unleaded gas. Now you can run those Studios on reg unleaded (AVR) and drive em down a rough road (poor placement, room acoustics issues) and if you’re happy with that and it gets you where you want to go …

In any case they are terrific loudspeakers and you are fortunate to own them.

Look at it this way, they are going to sound better on that AVR than virtually any other speaker would.

Furthermore, they will still prolly sound better than if he took the $$$ they cost and spent only half of it on other speakers and sunk the other half in better electronics.
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post #466 of 7357 Old 02-17-2008, 11:11 AM
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It also has to do with that to which you are accustomed. For instance, if you are just used to older Mirages, most newer speakers would seem impossibly bright. Besides, for $1500, you can't get perfection, so you just have to go with what you like. I find some speakers nearly offensive, but people love them. Others that I think are closing in on perfection make other people scratch their heads. The F12s measure almost too good to be true. With any accurate speaker, you do want a somewhat well damped room and not all stores have that. Goodness knows we didn't.

John
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post #467 of 7357 Old 02-18-2008, 08:18 AM
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Well, I listened to some Dynaudio Audience 72se yesterday and I really liked them a lot. Combined with the deal I got on them, I had to pull the trigger. Maybe in a few months I'll take a look at the F32.
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post #468 of 7357 Old 02-18-2008, 08:27 AM
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Can anyone recommend speaker wire for F12 running to Pio 94 receiver? I really really do not want to spend $900 on speaker wire unless the sound is much better.

Am thinking about (i) Analysis Plus Oval Nine in single wire setup (or bi-wire if I have to but that doubles cost) -- or (ii) just getting Belden 5T00UP 10 AWG Speaker Cable.

Any thoughts on these or other options and whether I should go bi-wire now? Thanks.
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post #469 of 7357 Old 02-18-2008, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmersky View Post

Can anyone recommend speaker wire for F12 running to Pio 94 receiver? I really really do not want to spend $900 on speaker wire unless the sound is much better.

Am thinking about (i) Analysis Plus Oval Nine in single wire setup (or bi-wire if I have to but that doubles cost) -- or (ii) just getting Belden 5T00UP 10 AWG Speaker Cable.

Any thoughts on these or other options and whether I should go bi-wire now? Thanks.

Get the Bedlen, it's good enough. But if you want to get into expensive cables, I have 10' Oval 9 single wire I can sell you.

I want to hear opinions from people who don't have a dog in the fight.
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post #470 of 7357 Old 02-18-2008, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmersky View Post

Can anyone recommend speaker wire for F12 running to Pio 94 receiver? I really really do not want to spend $900 on speaker wire unless the sound is much better.

Am thinking about (i) Analysis Plus Oval Nine in single wire setup (or bi-wire if I have to but that doubles cost) -- or (ii) just getting Belden 5T00UP 10 AWG Speaker Cable.

Any thoughts on these or other options and whether I should go bi-wire now? Thanks.

Well, i can recommend that you don't spend $900 on speaker wire!

John
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post #471 of 7357 Old 02-22-2008, 09:27 AM
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If you are interested in the new Ultima2 line, check out the March edition of Stereophile and Kal Rubinson's excellent review of the Studio2's.


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post #472 of 7357 Old 02-22-2008, 09:32 AM
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I almost spit my coffee over the magazine though when he said that he thought the midrange on the 802Ds were more clear or something to that effect. The *old* Gem's midrange is more detailed than the 802D Man, Kal loves that kevlar thing for some reason.

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post #473 of 7357 Old 02-22-2008, 10:47 AM
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Is this March edition of Stereophile available to view online without an online subscription? If not, then I'll try to hunt down a copy at a local book store. Thanks!
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post #474 of 7357 Old 02-22-2008, 12:19 PM
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Is this March edition of Stereophile available to view online without an online subscription? If not, then I'll try to hunt down a copy at a local book store. Thanks!

No, I like getting the magazine so I don't subscribe digitally. The reviews do show up online but it seems to take a couple of months to get the free on-line version.


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post #475 of 7357 Old 02-22-2008, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmersky View Post

Can anyone recommend speaker wire for F12 running to Pio 94 receiver? I really really do not want to spend $900 on speaker wire unless the sound is much better.

Am thinking about (i) Analysis Plus Oval Nine in single wire setup (or bi-wire if I have to but that doubles cost) -- or (ii) just getting Belden 5T00UP 10 AWG Speaker Cable.

Any thoughts on these or other options and whether I should go bi-wire now? Thanks.

Home Depot 12 ga is what I use... par excellence!
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post #476 of 7357 Old 02-22-2008, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

No, I like getting the magazine so I don't subscribe digitally. The reviews do show up online but it seems to take a couple of months to get the free on-line version.

Nice, I found the issue at my local bookstore (BookStar), was a shelf below this month's copy of Retro Gamer.

Seemed like a very positive review. I like how Rubinson (the reviewer) compares the bottom-end extension & definition of the Studio2 to the JL Audio Fathom f113, “the Studio 2 was capable of bass much like that of a well-designed, well-placed, properly EQ’d subwoofer…when a good, truly low sound came along, it had pop and impact untouched by muddiness. I can’t fathom how Revel has managed this.” Wow! Seems like one should set this front speaker to large instead of the THX recommended small?

The downsides that Rubinson states are the plastic tweeter cover that you must remove and the connection panel cover being made of plastic, which are pretty minor complaints. lol

Encouraging quotes from the article:
"Female and massed voices were presented without glare but with exquisite detail."

"In the areas of lack of coloration, integration across the audioband, dynamic range, imaging, and soundstage depth, the Studio2s were simply outstanding."

Thanks for bringing this new review to our attention. I’m especially appreciative since my pair of Studio2 is arriving next week.
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post #477 of 7357 Old 02-23-2008, 01:15 AM
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I have some questions concerning bi-amplification of my Studio2s which I will be setting up next weekend. I have never implemented a bi-wired or bi-amplified connection before so I'd rather ask before frying my receiver or speakers.

I'm using the Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS which outputs 130 Watts x 7 channels. I'm doing a 5.1 Revel Ultima2 setup:
Fronts: Studio2 pair
Center: Voice2
Surround: Gem2 pair

Since I won't be using the Rear Surround outputs of my receiver for 7.1, should I bi-amplify my Studio2s by utilizing the receiver's Front and Surround Back outputs to create a vertical bi-amplified connection with the Studio2 inputs?

Are there any other requirements or settings to implement besides:
Remove the jumper straps of both Studio2s.
Set the surround back speaker setting of the VSX-82TXS receiver to "Front Bi-Amp".

If I bi-amp in this manner, will each Studio2 be receiving 260 Watts per tower instead of 130 Watts via a single wired connection? Would this be the optimal wiring setup for the Studio2s, considering my current equipment?

Excerpt from page 20 of the Salon2/Studio2 manual (click to enlarge):


Excerpt from page 56 of the Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS manual:
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post #478 of 7357 Old 02-23-2008, 09:02 AM
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You might want to think about an external amplifier, I run Salon, Voice, Gem (2's) with Mac 501 Monoblocks and quite frankly the speakers didn't "wake up" until I got some serious power behind them. I tried bi-amping a set just once as an experiment and it was a complete waste of time when compared with a good solid external amp (for myself anyway).....Good Luck.

Russ
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post #479 of 7357 Old 02-23-2008, 09:07 AM
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Sadly, what reviewers say is largely immaterial, they gush about every speaker they review, then find some flaw, real or perceived.

As for amps, you *really* should just go get yourself a good 5 or 7 channel amp. it doesn't have to be exotic, but an NAD, Parasound, Rotel, Bryston, anything like that.

Russ, you have Salons or Salon2s?

John
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post #480 of 7357 Old 02-23-2008, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Sadly, what reviewers say is largely immaterial, they gush about every speaker they review, then find some flaw, real or perceived.

As for amps, you *really* should just go get yourself a good 5 or 7 channel amp. it doesn't have to be exotic, but an NAD, Parasound, Rotel, Bryston, anything like that.

Russ, you have Salons or Salon2s?

Salon 2's.

Russ
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