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hifisponge's Avatar hifisponge 01:24 AM 03-06-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-Geo View Post

It's reassuring to hear you compare the quality of your Studio2s to the 400lb JMLabs, and yet the Revels come out ahead in most all regards.

In HIS opinion. But then he is a disgruntled former Focal dealer that seeks out every opportunity to pump up what ever speaker he is carrying in his shop at the moment while dogging on everything else that is comparable. I've listened to both the Studio2's and the Focal 1037's, and with all due respect to your purchase, I respectfully disagree that the Revel's are hands down better.

For an objective view of the performance of the Focal's vs. the Revel's, here are measurements of the Revel Salon2 (top) and Focal 1037 (bottom) taken from a German audio magazine that reviewed both. The top graph for each is the Frequency Response and the bottom graph in each is the Distortion level.





The Focal is a bit smoother and flater from 200Hz on up, but the Revel is more consistent from top to bottom. Some may like the fuller sounding bass of the Focal's, while others will prefer the neutrally balanced bass of the Revels. Likewise, the Revel appear to emphasize the treble a bit more than the Focal which some will like and some wont. The Revel becomes more distorted at high levels from 300Hz on down, while the Focal has more distortion in the lower midrange.

Are they different? Yes.

Is one better than the other? Purely subjective.

- Tim

syswei's Avatar syswei 06:37 AM 03-06-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-Geo View Post

Unless someone has a better combo to recommend for powering:
Studio2 pair
Voice2
Gem2 pair


I'll say again, if you want high power at low cost, look into pro amps such as from Crown, QSC, etc.
syswei's Avatar syswei 06:45 AM 03-06-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

For an objective view of the performance of the Focal's vs. the Revel's, here are measurements of the Revel Salon2 (top) and Focal 1037 (bottom) taken from a German audio magazine that reviewed both. The top graph for each is the Frequency Response and the bottom graph in each is the Distortion level.


Thanks for those graphs, Tim! If you read German, maybe you happen to know what level the distortion readings were taken at? For instance, was the bottom blue line at 90dB and the red at 95db or what?
Alimentall's Avatar Alimentall 08:21 AM 03-06-2008
Neo, keep in mind, I'm thinking the <$20K Focals, just to be fair. I haven't heard the two biggest models. And all of the Utopia series sound *sweet* and i could easily live with them, i just think these do a few things a little better! Though, these are a bit more ruler flat and don't do the 'lush, sweet, musical' thing. They just belt out whatever they're doing like it's right there.

Seriously, if I were you, i'd get the NAD preamp/amp for half the price of the Denon/Pioneer stuff. That's like buying an expensive Hyundai with every bell and whistle, but it won't match up on preamp/amp quality and certainly not room correction processing. What i'm doing is using the M3 as the amp/preamp for stereo and using its HT bypass for movies. No one is going to want to audition the Revels with any room correction in the mix anyway.
Alimentall's Avatar Alimentall 08:32 AM 03-06-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

In HIS opinion. But then he is a disgruntled former Focal dealer that seeks out every opportunity to pump up what ever speaker he is carrying in his shop at the moment while dogging on everything else that is comparable. I've listened to both the Studio2's and the Focal 1037's, and with all due respect to your purchase, I respectfully disagree that the Revel's are hands down better.

Who's disgruntled? I love Utopias, but Electras just can't do what the Revels can do. But if you like them, then i'm sure you're perfectly happy! I don't know anything about this magazine, but other magazines show the treble prominence of the Electras that I also hear and the bass just isn't even close, subjectively or otherwise.
Quote:



Are they different? Yes. Is one better than the other? Purely subjective.

Eh, I think we're about to find out - i just sent out 12,000 post cards to people asking if they were tired of chasing their tails with colored European speakers and asking them to audition the Ultimas in the new store, I guess we'll just see what people say
Alimentall's Avatar Alimentall 09:23 AM 03-06-2008
BTW, Tim, keep in mind, this *is* a Revel owners thread, so you'll have to excuse the excitement. My comparison with Focals was because they have more similarities than differences. If you'd like we can thread jump and talk about this in the Focal owner's thread
syswei's Avatar syswei 09:48 AM 03-06-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

For an objective view of the performance of the Focal's vs. the Revel's, here are measurements of the Revel Salon2 (top) and Focal 1037 (bottom) taken from a German audio magazine that reviewed both. The top graph for each is the Frequency Response and the bottom graph in each is the Distortion level.

Looking at this again, from the color coding I am going to assume the red distortion line is at 100dB and the blue at 95.

But I'm not sure what the set of 4 basically parallel lines in the upper portion of each bottom plot represents? Measurements taken at 4 different levels, but measurements of what?
hifisponge's Avatar hifisponge 10:44 AM 03-06-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by syswei View Post

Looking at this again, from the color coding I am going to assume the red distortion line is at 100dB and the blue at 95.

But I'm not sure what the set of 4 basically parallel lines in the upper portion of each bottom plot represents? Measurements taken at 4 different levels, but measurements of what?


Yes that is correct. The four colored lines at the top of the graph represent the output level for the distortion reading. You can see that only when both of these speakers are pushed to 100 dB do they start showing any significant amount of distortion. That is why you don't even see a distortion reading at the bottom of the graph for the 85 db and 90 dB levels.

The measurements are of pure tones at each frequency. So you would play a pure 100Hz tone for instance and measure the level of the tome as well as the distortion for that tone. Repeat this for every frequency from 20Hz to 40KHz and you get the two graphs.
hifisponge's Avatar hifisponge 10:51 AM 03-06-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

BTW, Tim, keep in mind, this *is* a Revel owners thread, so you'll have to excuse the excitement. My comparison with Focals was because they have more similarities than differences. If you'd like we can thread jump and talk about this in the Focal owner's thread

Yes, I know this the the Revel thread, and I typically don't like to come in and crap on someone's parade, but come on, you could have just described how great the Revel's sound without mud slinging on a another brand.

Don't worry about responding, as I don't want to do anything further to derail this thread.

BTW - I have full respect for Revel speakers and I can see why anyone that owns them would be just as giddy as Alimentall is right now. They are fantastic speakers!

- Tim
Alimentall's Avatar Alimentall 10:53 AM 03-06-2008
Sorry, wasn't trying to crap on Focals, just using them as a high-end reference. They sound nothing like a B&W, for instance, so that would be a ridiculous comparison. Anyone that likes the Revels would probably like Focals and vice versa. It will be more interesting to hear what the B&W aficionados think.
hifisponge's Avatar hifisponge 11:09 AM 03-06-2008
Alimentall -

It's all good.

Cheers,

- Tim
syswei's Avatar syswei 12:28 PM 03-06-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Yes that is correct. The four colored lines at the top of the graph represent the output level for the distortion reading. You can see that only when both of these speakers are pushed to 100 dB do they start showing any significant amount of distortion. That is why you don't even see a distortion reading at the bottom of the graph for the 85 db and 90 dB levels.

The measurements are of pure tones at each frequency. So you would play a pure 100Hz tone for instance and measure the level of the tome as well as the distortion for that tone. Repeat this for every frequency from 20Hz to 40KHz and you get the two graphs.

I don't understand why in the bass region the four lines look so different from the FR plots.
hifisponge's Avatar hifisponge 12:31 PM 03-06-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by syswei View Post

I don't understand why in the bass region the four lines look so different from the FR plots.

Good point. I can only guess that they didn't want to blow the bass drivers with high level sine waves, so they feed them a lower level signal?
syswei's Avatar syswei 12:47 PM 03-06-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-Geo View Post

Unless someone has a better combo to recommend for powering:
Studio2 pair
Voice2
Gem2 pair

Here's a thread on pro amps:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=418666
thrand1's Avatar thrand1 01:38 PM 03-06-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrand1 View Post

Hey Revel experts, could use a little input.

First, thanks for the warm welcome. I just got done listening to my speakers for a few hours- I really have been trying to do 2-3 hours a day to break them in for the last 3 weeks- and I really find it amazing how balanced they remain even at low volumes. I was listening to some Ben Harper and reading a favorite car magazine, and boy oh boy does the time melt away. Anyway, on with some questions. I know you guys are busy talking about Studios and Gem2's and such, so if you wouldn't mind taking some time to answer my questions about some Concertas, I'd really appreciate it.

1) I live in an apartment complex, and I can't really mount anything on the wall, so unfortunately no acoustical treatments for now (sorry Kal and guys who suggested it), and no S12 surrounds. As a result, I was planning to go with M12's. Does anyone here think the M12's will pair up nicely as surrounds with F12's for fronts? It doesn't hurt either that the M12's with the stands is about the same price as the S12's!

2) I have an Integra 7.8 as my receiver. Obviously the M12's would be running off of the receiver with the F12's as fronts. The F12's are rated at 6 ohms, the M12's at 8. Should I have any worry about the stability of the Integra running these speakers? It has not even blushed so far running the F12's, so I wanted to make sure that having speakers of different impedances wouldn't be too much for the 7.8. Sorry, no external amps for me for now, I'm planning to add the surrounds first.

3) I'm debating over the importance of adding a center channel to this system. Right now with my current setup, I feel as though the dispersion offered by the F12's has been ample as a "phantom center", and so I'm wondering if a center channel is absolutely critical. My balance is 60% HT/40% music, with the music being 95% 2 channel. I've seen so many debates about the effectiveness of center channels that I don't know what to think. Is it your opinion that a center channel like the C12 would be critical to my system? I don't even want to think about the finagling that will be required to properly position that thing, haha.

Thanks in advance for your advice, and thanks once again for the warm welcome.

-Tyler

Sorry for the bump, but it got buried in the Studio discussion...anyone care to share their thoughts on this? Thanks!
RMK!'s Avatar RMK! 03:47 PM 03-06-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrand1 View Post

Sorry for the bump, but it got buried in the Studio discussion...anyone care to share their thoughts on this? Thanks!

Hi Tyler,

Unfortunately I do not have any experience with the Concerta’s, just Performa’s and Ultima’s but your questions are of a more general audio nature so I will take a shot.

First, most acoustic treatments can be installed by using picture hanging hooks so they really are not limited to single family residences or dedicated rooms so you may want to re-think this position.

The Integra should be fine.

Regarding the surrounds the M12's may even be preferable. Revel seems to be moving away from Dipole/Bipole to Direct Radiators for surround duty. The M12 is rear ported so you will want to give it a little breathing room from the back wall.

Regarding the Center Channel, although I have experimented with a phantom center I have always preferred an actual center channel speaker for HT duty. The caveat here is that with a single seating position (sweet spot) the phantom center can do as well if not better than an LCR configuration. In most HT applications a dedicated center channel speaker will do a better job of dispersing the CC information over multiple seating positions.
Rinkledorf's Avatar Rinkledorf 03:52 PM 03-06-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by kansashick View Post

I am curious as to what route you would have gone. I have been thinking about buying Studio2s and a Voice center to replace my Atlantic Tech 8200e LRC (use AT surrounds). I have 2 Fathom 113s now. My dealer and a few CIs on this forum thought that would be a pretty outstanding HT system with an ATI 3007 amp.

Don't get me wrong. Having the Ultima package (Studio's,Voice,Embraces,S30 rears) for HT is more than I could have ever dreamed. If HT was all I wanted in a speaker system, I may have just kept my Polk Audio's. But these speakers playing 2 channel or high rez multichannel sound unbelievable. But, I have also incorporated a 2 channel pre/power into my ht system.
Steelheart1948's Avatar Steelheart1948 04:20 PM 03-06-2008
Don't know if anyone saw this yet, but the April "Stereophile" recommended components list is out. The Revel Concerta F12 (list price $1498 a pair) is a Class B, along with some very expensive competition.
ssteel01's Avatar ssteel01 09:08 AM 03-07-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrand1 View Post

Sorry for the bump, but it got buried in the Studio discussion...anyone care to share their thoughts on this? Thanks!

I would agree 100% with everything RMK! said above.

The Integra shouldn't have any problems, the M12's would be an excellent surround (provided you can give them a few inches behind the ports) and I would look into add the center channel. The C12 is not a bad center at all. It's certainly not perfect, but most of the time when you're hearing negative stuff about horizontal centers, it's the MTM's (especially the big box store MTMs) that really leave something to be desired. I've also tried phantom center and yes, while you're in the ideal position, it's fine. But the minute you do something crazy like lay down to watch TV/movies...it goes to crap.


Scott
mark russ's Avatar mark russ 12:50 PM 03-07-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelheart1948 View Post

Don't know if anyone saw this yet, but the April "Stereophile" recommended components list is out. The Revel Concerta F12 (list price $1498 a pair) is a Class B, along with some very expensive competition.

And just think, they were only $1200 when they first came out too, full retail at that!

They are so good for the $$$ IMO that sometimes I seriously question the validity of spending several times that amount to get maybe only an incremental improvement at best.
mark russ's Avatar mark russ 12:57 PM 03-07-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-Geo View Post

It's surprising because I had the DefTech BP7006s in the exact same spot that the Studio2s now reside.

Did the Def Techs have side-firing subs?
Kal Rubinson's Avatar Kal Rubinson 01:56 PM 03-07-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark russ View Post

Did the Def Techs have side-firing subs?

Mebbe but all one needs is a displacement of a few inches to go from a node to an internode in the room. That's what makes bass response so dependent on critical positioning and why there is often a conflict between optimum positioning for bass and for imaging.
Neo-Geo's Avatar Neo-Geo 01:59 PM 03-07-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark russ View Post

Did the Def Techs have side-firing subs?

Each BP7006 DefTech has one 8" long-throw subwoofer coupled to two 8" infrasonic radiators. The 8" sub is on one side, the two 8" radiators are on the opposite side of the tower, driven by a built-in 300-watt digital amp. Quite a spectacular value and I had nothing but complements with that setup, seemed to be the ideal pair for my Pioneer AVR.

Essentially, each 54 lb DefTech had 300watts dedicated to strictly powering the subs and 130 watts from my AVR dedicated to the midrange and tweeter. Each inefficient & power hungry Revel Studio2 has 130 watts x 2 channels (bi-amplified) to drive the midrange, tweeter, and the two 8" subs. It feels like the Studio2 subs are getting like maybe 50 watts because they hardly move and barely put out any bass. Now 50 watts would be good for say, dimly lighting a closet, but for filling my 8,000 cubic foot ht room with bass, lol, it simply doesn't.

I would add an external 2-channel amp, but I’m such a noob that I'm not sure how I would go about hooking it up to my AVR as it lacks XLR connections. For a temporary solution until I get a new preamp/pro I’m thinking the XTi 1000 or XTi 2000 would do the trick. I also like the brand Rotel. I know Mark Levinson is the best match since that is what the designer tested them with, but I don't want to deal with 150 lb amps. Any tips on how to correctly integrate a Crown or Rotel amp with my Pioneer AVR and which amp would be the better choice for powering the Studio2s in stereo? I'm ready to order something today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Mebbe but all one needs is a displacement of a few inches to go from a node to an internode in the room. That's what makes bass response so dependent on critical positioning and why there is often a conflict between optimum positioning for bass and for imaging.

I know you are a pro and have been reviewing since I was in diapers, in fact I just read a Rotel review by you, but I'm afraid it's not that that simple in my case. My Studio2 subs are not physically moving, I mean they vibrate a little, but just barely. Even when I put my head a few inches from the Studio2 subs, the bass is truly faint. I place my hand at the port at the bottom of the tower and the airflow is nearly non-existent, which leads me to believe that the woofers simply aren't being driven. I'm hoping this is due to a lack of power perhaps?
Alex solomon's Avatar Alex solomon 02:12 PM 03-07-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-Geo View Post

Each BP7006 DefTech has one 8" long-throw subwoofer coupled to two 8" infrasonic radiators. The 8" sub is on one side, the two 9" radiators are on the opposite side of the tower, driven by a built-in 300-watt digital amp. Quite a spectacular value and I had nothing but complements with that setup, seemed to be the ideal pair for my Pioneer AVR.

Essentially, each 54 lb DefTech had 300watts dedicated to strictly powering the subs and 130 watts from my AVR dedicated to the midrange and tweeter. Each inefficient & power hungry Revel Studio2 has 130 watts x 2 channels (bi-amplified) to drive the midrange, tweeter, and the two 8" subs. It feels like the Studio2 subs are getting like maybe 50 watts because they hardly move and barely put out any bass. Now 50 watts would be good for say, dimly lighting a closet, but for filling my 8,000 cubic foot ht room with bass, lol, it simply doesn't.

I would add an external 2-channel amp, but I'm such a noob that I'm not sure how I would go about hooking it up to my AVR as it lacks XLR connections. For a temporary solution until I get a new preamp/pro I'm thinking the XTi 1000 or XTi 2000 would do the trick. I also like the brand Rotel. I know Mark Levinson is the best match since that is what the designer tested them with, but I don't want to deal with 150 lb amps. Any tips on how to correctly integrate a Crown or Rotel amp with my Pioneer AVR and which amp would be the better choice for powering the Studio2s in stereo? I'm ready to order something today.

If you like the Rotel amp you can buy the Rotel 1090 which is a 2 channel amp or the 1095 which is a 5 channel amp. You can use RCA cables to connect the amp to your preout on the receiver. FWIW, I compared the Proceed amp (which is considered as baby levinson) with Parasound 2205 and Rotel 1075 and kept the Proceed and sold off the other two.
Alex solomon's Avatar Alex solomon 02:14 PM 03-07-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-Geo View Post



I know you are a pro and have been reviewing since I was in diapers, in fact I just read a Rotel review by you, but I'm afraid it's not that that simple in my case. My Studio2 subs are not physically moving, I mean they vibrate a little, but just barely. Even when I put my head a few inches from the Studio2 subs, the bass is truly faint. I place my hand at the port at the bottom of the tower and the airflow is nearly non-existent, which leads me to believe that the woofers simply aren't being driven. I'm hoping this is due to a lack of power perhaps?

I would call Revel support and try to trouble shoot the problem with them.
mark russ's Avatar mark russ 02:18 PM 03-07-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-Geo View Post

Each BP7006 DefTech has one 8" long-throw subwoofer coupled to two 8" infrasonic radiators. The 8" sub is on one side, the two 8" radiators are on the opposite side of the tower, ...

Well that could help explain it right there. Anytime a sub-driver is placed close to a room boundary (such as the floor and/or the front wall behind the speaker), it will excite the standing waves in the room perpendicular to that surface as strongly as possible, and since the Revel's woofers are front firing and higher off the floor, it simply just won't do so as much as what you were used to with the Def Techs.
Rinkledorf's Avatar Rinkledorf 02:48 PM 03-07-2008
Hi Neo-Geo. I was wondering if you first ran the Studio 2 without bi-amping? Just using the front speaker outputs.
Alimentall's Avatar Alimentall 02:52 PM 03-07-2008
I remember Kal when he was in reviewer diapers starting to review $300 CD players, they grow up so soon
Alimentall's Avatar Alimentall 02:55 PM 03-07-2008
Neo, can't the dealer that sold you all this stuff come over and make it sound good? If I had a guy buying a 5.1 Ultima2 system from me, I'd be over there making *sure* they sounded great.

My Studios put out obvious bass from 20' away, let alone from 6" away. Anything *but* faint. I'm pondering turning it down a notch.
Kal Rubinson's Avatar Kal Rubinson 03:25 PM 03-07-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-Geo View Post

I know you are a pro and have been reviewing since I was in diapers, in fact I just read a Rotel review by you, but I'm afraid it's not that that simple in my case. My Studio2 subs are not physically moving, I mean they vibrate a little, but just barely. Even when I put my head a few inches from the Studio2 subs, the bass is truly faint. I place my hand at the port at the bottom of the tower and the airflow is nearly non-existent, which leads me to believe that the woofers simply aren't being driven. I'm hoping this is due to a lack of power perhaps?

My last response was not directed to you but was a general response to the quoted message.

There may, in fact, be something wrong with your system but I really doubt it is a lack of power that accounts for a lack of movement of the bass drivers. I've run big systems like the Studios for many years with a variety of amps and even the small ones (but decent ones) put out bass; it's just that they will not play anything loud, bass or treble, without stress. This does not seen to be your problem.

Perhaps it would be best to completely simplify the system by eliminating bass management, bi-wiring, DSP or anything other than running a full-range signal through the amp. Can you run it pure/direct without any processing and feed in a quality analog signal? Can you borrow a simple stereo amp/player? That might help determine if there's something wrong with the speakers.
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