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post #631 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by revelman View Post

1. The Studio2 and specially the Salon2 really benefit from high power/high current capable amplifiers. You would be amazed on the improvment in sound. Don't worry about overdriving them-as long as they are not abused.

2. At this time there are no separate CI (custom install) units. The current Ultima2 line has a rear switch which corrects the response for wall(CI) installations.

3. The recommended crossover for the Gem2 is 80 Hz.

4. Sorry, I have no information on future in-walls using the Ultima2 drivers.

hope this helps,
Mark Glazer

It does, help, thank you Mark!

Based on your input, I might go with bridged Crown MacroTech MA2402 units for the front, 1485w/8ohms / 1670w/4ohms, rather than Bryston 7B-SST, 600w/900w.

From the posts here I'm hoping you might mention to your product people that some HT enthusiasts really would rather have a matte verision available to avoid distracting reflections (and light pollution of the screen from reflections). It would also be a good excuse for Revel to offer a lower price point for the Ultima2, which in my opinion can only help, given economic conditions.

Thanks again.
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post #632 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by revelman View Post

2. At this time there are no separate CI (custom install) units. The current Ultima2 line has a rear switch which corrects the response for wall(CI) installations.

Were CI versions offered in the past for the Ultima2, but then discontinued (hopefully only temporarily)? That might explain why kansashick's dealer had the CI versions on a price list; maybe it simply wasn't the current price list.
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post #633 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by syswei View Post

It does, help, thank you Mark!

Based on your input, I might go with bridged Crown MacroTech MA2402 units for the front, 1485w/8ohms / 1670w/4ohms, rather than Bryston 7B-SST, 600w/900w.

I wouldn't bridge amps to get more power. Distortion goes up and the amp becomes more unstable at low impedances. Low distortion and ability to adapt to very low impedances is more important than raw wattage.

John
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post #634 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

I wouldn't bridge amps to get more power. Distortion goes up and the amp becomes more unstable at low impedances. Low distortion and ability to adapt to very low impedances is more important than raw wattage.

I wasn't aware of the distortion issue so thank you for pointing it out, I'll need to look into it more. The impedance issue I'm not as concerned about because the 2402 is rated at 2 ohm for stereo and 4 ohm when bridged. The Studio2 and Voice2 are 6 ohm nominal and I believe minimum 3.7 and 3.6 ohms....not so far below 4 ohm, and I think pro amps are built to take punishment for hours on end (and I won't be using them for hours on end). If I don't bridge then another possibility is the Crown MA-3600VZ, 1120wpc/8ohm - 1565wpc/4ohm stereo.

BTW when you say distortion goes up, do you know if this by some simple formula? Like 2x both IM and THD? I guess on the other side of the coin, crosstalk goes to zero.
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post #635 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 10:13 AM
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Pro amps have virtually no concern for subjective sound quality! They're designed to be rugged, cheap, transportable, flexible. Like a truck compared to a sports car. You're not going to see a pro amp with the parts quality of a YBA or C-J ever.

John
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post #636 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Pro amps have virtually no concern for subjective sound quality! They're designed to be rugged, cheap, transportable, flexible. Like a truck compared to a sports car. You're not going to see a pro amp with the parts quality of a YBA or C-J ever.

True on the parts quality. But the question to me is whether is makes an audible difference in amps. Decades of double-blind testing results suggest that the answer might be "no".
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post #637 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 10:55 AM
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Well, that could be, but consider that at 10W continuous power, you're at 98dB. That's pretty darned loud. At that point even the best speakers will begin to strain a bit. At 100W, you're at 108dB and the speakers are really obviously distorting, as are your ears. And most good amps aren't breaking a sweat. So, if you aren't ever going to use more than about 100W or 200W of *peak* power, having 1000W won't make them sound any better, if all amps sound the same. Get what I mean? Not saying it will hurt to have too much power, but if you start doing stuff like bridging, it could, at least on paper. Far better to bi-amp the speakers than to muscle up on them.

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post #638 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Well, that could be, but consider that at 10W continuous power, you're at 98dB. That's pretty darned loud. At that point even the best speakers will begin to strain a bit. At 100W, you're at 108dB and the speakers are really obviously distorting, as are your ears. And most good amps aren't breaking a sweat. So, if you aren't ever going to use more than about 100W or 200W of *peak* power, having 1000W won't make them sound any better, if all amps sound the same. Get what I mean? Not saying it will hurt to have too much power, but if you start doing stuff like bridging, it could, at least on paper. Far better to bi-amp the speakers than to muscle up on them.


Well, I guess I am of the belief that "most" amps do sound the same, and that if one owns a 300wpc amp and a 1000wpc amp and the material never calls for more than 100w even short term, then there should be no difference. BUT, while I'm not technically very knowledgeable, I have read that certain waveforms of the same amplitude require more power to reproduce than others. For instance, square waves I have read require about twice the power of a sine wave. That's one reason to have more power on hand. Another reason is to deal with short term peaks. If a speaker produces distortion at 110db/1m (more like 104db at my listening position) with a test tone, is it still as distortive if the high volume is only very short term? I don't know. But even if the peaks are distorted, I'd rather hear distorted peaks than compression or clipping...I think.

I do know that I want to have on hand something more than the recommended max 500wpc for the Studio2/Voice2. How much more, I'm not sure yet. Among other reasons, revelman wasn't very specific.
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post #639 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 11:50 AM
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Well, you're just not going to see a square wave happen on an audio signal. That's just a test thing. Why would you want more power than is recommended? For what purpose? At that point, while it doesn't hurt, it isn't something you should be seeking. I'd say that anything over 250W/ch of good power in a bi-amp configuration is pure waste, as opposed to largely unnecessary. Even if you're not sure you can hear it, I'd sure as heck prefer better quality components at 250W or even 125W than industrial components at 1000W. I think you're taking the 'more is better' thing just too far. Save your money, buy the speakers, don't worry about overkill on the amps, just get something that sounds good and works well. I'd rather have the nice finish on the speakers than wasted money in amps. At least you can see where that goes!

I'd rather have Ultima on an NAD T785 receiver than Performa or most other things on a 1000Wx5 amplifier.

John
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post #640 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Well, you're just not going to see a square wave happen on an audio signal. That's just a test thing.

Cowbells put out square waves. Are there other sounds that also require unusual amounts of power to reproduce faithfully? I don't know.
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post #641 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by syswei View Post

Cowbells put out square waves. Are there other sounds that also require unusual amounts of power to reproduce faithfully? I don't know.

We have lots of cows out here in Kansas. Do you want me to check?
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post #642 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 06:17 PM
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It's not a square wave.

John
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post #643 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 06:30 PM
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It's not a square wave.

OK what is it? And while you're at it, do you happen to know if some sounds require more power to reproduce faithfully than a sine wave of equivalent amplitude?
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post #644 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

I'd rather have Ultima on an NAD T785 receiver than Performa or most other things on a 1000Wx5 amplifier.

Gee, might that be because you sell NAD but no 1000wpc equipment?
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post #645 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 06:56 PM
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i don't sell 1000W/ch amps because there's no need! Even if I picked up a high-end line, anything over about 200W/ch is a complete waste of energy. I just can't understand your thought processes on this one.

As for a cowbell, it's more like an impulse with a long decay. In any case it doesn't *matter* because we're not talking about a live cowbell either. We're talking about a recording of one that fits into a 16-bit or, at most, a 24-bit recording. There's a limit to how much amplitude it can have relative to the rest of the sound and therefore, won't give up much of a challenge to an amplifier.

I mean, hey, if you want to go waste your money on overpowered amps and then bridge them, be my guest, I just thought I'd explain why it's not necessary, there's no value in going back and forth on it.

John
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post #646 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

i don't sell 1000W/ch amps because there's no need! Even if I picked up a high-end line, anything over about 200W/ch is a complete waste of energy. I just can't understand your thought processes on this one.

As for a cowbell, it's more like an impulse with a long decay. In any case it doesn't *matter* because we're not talking about a live cowbell either. We're talking about a recording of one that fits into a 16-bit or, at most, a 24-bit recording. There's a limit to how much amplitude it can have relative to the rest of the sound and therefore, won't give up much of a challenge to an amplifier.

I mean, hey, if you want to go waste your money on overpowered amps and then bridge them, be my guest, I just thought I'd explain why it's not necessary, there's no value in going back and forth on it.

You have got me really confused here, John. I have been thinking about moving up to Revels or B&Ws and my local dealers have all said that my Denon 4308 would not be enough power for them and that I would have to add an amp. Your posts suggest that this is not true. Is the issue one of a true amp versus an AV receiver?
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post #647 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 08:15 PM
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It *might* be enough power, but it doesn't have the power it says it has. Take the rated power and assume about 1/2 to 2/3rd. A separate power amp it is not. More likely, it's just not the quality that is recommendable for good speakers. But will it drive them? Sure. Perhaps not all that well. I mean, look, Neo is driving the Revels with a Pioneer receiver and Denons are generally better than Pioneers. Not recommended really, but it works. Kinda like McDonalds vs a good juicy steak. Like I said, I drove the Ultimas off a 50W amp and it did *okay*. Not great, but *okay*. They didn't suck, just didn't quite sound as good.

John
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post #648 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

i don't sell 1000W/ch amps because there's no need! Even if I picked up a high-end line, anything over about 200W/ch is a complete waste of energy.

I guess the fact that the Salon2, Studio2, and Voice2 are all recommended up to 500W is meaningless to you?

And also meaningless is the fact that Revel's chief engineer wrote "The Studio2 and specially the Salon2 really benefit from high power/high current capable amplifiers. You would be amazed on the improvment in sound. Don't worry about overdriving them-as long as they are not abused."? I think his statement implies that over 500wpc is just fine (if not abused), and preferable to 200wpc. (Please chime in, revelman, if I am mistaken in this interpretation.) Call me crazy, but I guess I would sooner trust his judgement on this matter rather than the judgement of a dealer who happens to sell sub-250wpc equipment, but no 500+wpc equipment.

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We're talking about a recording...that fits into a 16-bit or, at most, a 24-bit recording. There's a limit to how much amplitude it can have relative to the rest of the sound and therefore, won't give up much of a challenge to an amplifier.

1. As I said, my understanding is that some waveforms require extra power to reproduce faithfully, compared to a sine wave of the same amplitude. If anyone has further information on this subject, I'd appreciate reading about it.

2. What you're saying about the recording and peak levels really depends on the recording itself and what I'd refer to as the "base" level of the recording. Most CD recordings in the last 10-15 years have restricted dynamics because the "base" level is set so high; they clip all the time. But I actually have quite a number of 1980s CDs. And will be building an SACD collection once I build out the dedicated HT. These tend not to have restricted dynamics.
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post #649 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

i don't sell 1000W/ch amps because there's no need! Even if I picked up a high-end line, anything over about 200W/ch is a complete waste of energy. I just can't understand your thought processes on this one.

And by the way, anyone running a Salon2 with only 200W is only going to produce 110dB@1m, 104dB@2m, 98dB@4m. Compared to THX-recommended capabilities of 115dB for subs and 108dB for satellites. So is attempting to get to THX-recommeded capabilities a "complete waste of energy"?
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post #650 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 09:05 PM
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Anyone else get the new Stereophile and notice the Class A Full range speaker ratings? The Ultima Studio2's are right there with some very fine company. To anyone who thinks the Ultima Studios (let alone Salons) are light on bass .

This is only several audio experts opinions but I think they got this one right.

HToM

"Well, la di fricken da."!
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post #651 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by syswei View Post

I guess the fact that the Salon2, Studio2, and Voice2 are all recommended up to 500W is meaningless to you?

And as little as 50W. Note the "up to".
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And also meaningless is the fact that Revel's chief engineer wrote "The Studio2 and specially the Salon2 really benefit from high power/high current capable amplifiers. You would be amazed on the improvment in sound. Don't worry about overdriving them-as long as they are not abused."? I think his statement implies that over 500wpc is just fine (if not abused), and preferable to 200wpc. (Please chime in, revelman, if I am mistaken in this interpretation.) Call me crazy, but I guess I would sooner trust his judgement on this matter rather than the judgement of a dealer who happens to sell sub-250wpc equipment, but no 500+wpc equipment.

As i said, it never hurts to have too much power, but that doesn't mean you need it. if there's one thing i've learned over the years, it's quality, not quantity.
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1. As I said, my understanding is that some waveforms require extra power to reproduce faithfully, compared to a sine wave of the same amplitude. If anyone has further information on this subject, I'd appreciate reading about it.

Eh, not so much. Amplifiers have sufficient rise time to create extremely fast transients, far faster than a speaker can handle or your ears can handle. Typically 3-5 times what is necessary.
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2. What you're saying about the recording and peak levels really depends on the recording itself and what I'd refer to as the "base" level of the recording. Most CD recordings in the last 10-15 years have restricted dynamics because the "base" level is set so high; they clip all the time. But I actually have quite a number of 1980s CDs. And will be building an SACD collection once I build out the dedicated HT. These tend not to have restricted dynamics.

Still nothing that a good 200W/ch amp can't handle, but like i said, waste your money as you wish, just don't try to convince me that all of my experience is wrong.

John
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post #652 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by syswei View Post

And by the way, anyone running a Salon2 with only 200W is only going to produce 110dB@1m, 104dB@2m, 98dB@4m. Compared to THX-recommended capabilities of 115dB for subs and 108dB for satellites. So is attempting to get to THX-recommeded capabilities a "complete waste of energy"?

Aside from THX being a farce overall, by far, most THX certified amps are a mere 100W-200W/ch.

John
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post #653 of 7452 Old 03-11-2008, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Anyone else get the new Stereophile and notice the Class A Full range speaker ratings? The Ultima Studio2's are right there with some very fine company. To anyone who thinks the Ultima Studios (let alone Salons) are light on bass .

This is only several audio experts opinions but I think they got this one right.

Depends on what you consider to be full range. According to Stereophile standards, they don't qualify in the bass department. On the other hand, almost none of the Class A full range speakers qualify for full range status according to their own definition, which I find fascinating.

John
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post #654 of 7452 Old 03-12-2008, 06:45 AM
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Still nothing that a good 200W/ch amp can't handle, but like i said, waste your money as you wish, just don't try to convince me that all of my experience is wrong.

Even classical concerts can reach short-term peak levels of 112-116dB. Rock would be even higher. Yet you think it is perfectly fine to power a Salon2 with 200wpc, such that it can achieve peak levels of 104dB at 2 meters and 98dB at 4 meters. Anything beyone 200wpc is just in your words a "waste of money". Who could want more than 98dB peaks at 4m?

Brilliant, John, just brilliant!

Why don't you just come right out and admit that you're singing this "no one needs more than 200wpc" tune because your shop doesn't sell anything more powerful?
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post #655 of 7452 Old 03-12-2008, 09:40 AM
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Even classical concerts can reach short-term peak levels of 112-116dB. Rock would be even higher.

Depends on how much you want to damage your hearing - "In the United States, the League of the Hard of Hearing estimates that noise levels at concerts hover between 110 and 120 decibels, the equivalent of a power saw, leaf blower, chain saw, pneumatic drill or ambulance siren. The league also notes that NIOSH recommends exposure to noise at those levels not exceed one minute 29 seconds."
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Yet you think it is perfectly fine to power a Salon2 with 200wpc, such that it can achieve peak levels of 104dB at 2 meters and 98dB at 4 meters. Anything beyone 200wpc is just in your words a "waste of money". Who could want more than 98dB peaks at 4m?

You're forgetting room gain for one thing. you're also forgetting the difference between peak power and continuous. The NAD Masters M25, for instance, while 'only' rated at 160W/ch RMS all channels, can do 385W peak into 4 ohms. That means peak output capability w/room gain of about 110dB, not that you would ever really do that.
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Brilliant, John, just brilliant!

Sarcasm aside, you should really check into your facts more and actually find out how loud you can actually stand before relying too much in theory learned from commercial websites.
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Why don't you just come right out and admit that you're singing this "no one needs more than 200wpc" tune because your shop doesn't sell anything more powerful?

Don't think so. I don't sell anything that powerful because people simply don't need it and would be damaging to their hearing to use it. As i said, buy what you want, no one is stopping you.

John
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post #656 of 7452 Old 03-12-2008, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Depends on how much you want to damage your hearing - "In the United States, the League of the Hard of Hearing estimates that noise levels at concerts hover between 110 and 120 decibels, the equivalent of a power saw, leaf blower, chain saw, pneumatic drill or ambulance siren. The league also notes that NIOSH recommends exposure to noise at those levels not exceed one minute 29 seconds."

You're forgetting room gain for one thing. you're also forgetting the difference between peak power and continuous. The NAD Masters M25, for instance, while 'only' rated at 160W/ch RMS all channels, can do 385W peak into 4 ohms. That means peak output capability w/room gain of about 110dB, not that you would ever really do that.

Sarcasm aside, you should really check into your facts more and actually find out how loud you can actually stand before relying too much in theory learned from commercial websites.

Don't think so. I don't sell anything that powerful because people simply don't need it and would be damaging to their hearing to use it. As i said, buy what you want, no one is stopping you.


So, John, please do share your expert, experienced views on what short-term peak dB capability is appropriate at the listening position, for someone who is interested in occaisionally playing music at live-concert levels. Classical, and rock.
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post #657 of 7452 Old 03-12-2008, 10:12 AM
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I'm never running more than about ten watts continuous power when "cranking". Most of the time it's less than a watt or two. Beyond 10W, i need to leave the room or be shitefaced drunk.

John
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post #658 of 7452 Old 03-12-2008, 11:20 AM
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you should really check into your facts more


No, John, it is YOU who needs to check facts.

1. I have repeatedly said that I want to have power on hand for SHORT TERM PEAKS, for instance post 597: "I am considering having more power than that on hand, not because I want to have continuous 115dB/1m blasting, but to handle transients and (I'm hoping) sound more "live"." You see, I do understand a bit about hearing damage.

2. Check page 2 of the following:
http://www.baua.de/nn_53260/en/Topic...nd-2007-03.pdf
I read the graph at the bottom of the page to indicate that measured 25 meters from the front of the stage, the QUIETEST of 70+ measured concerts had peak SPL of about 108dB. The AVERAGE concert had peak SPL of perhaps 117dB (eyeballing it).

3. The Salon2 is a 6ohm speaker. Taking your beloved NAD Masters amp, peak IHF dynamic power into 6ohms would appear to be around 300wpc. Speakers in this class are likely to be at least 2-3 ft away from walls, and in at least moderately-damped rooms, so imho a reasonable estimate of room gain is 3db (i.e., indirect sound contribution equal to direct sound). Given the 86.4dB sensitivity, with 300wpc and 3db room gain, at a 12 foot distance you would get short term PEAK SPL of 102.9dB. 5dB LESS than the peak level of the quietest of the concert measured in the paper referenced above. About 14dB LESS than the peak level of the average-loudness concert.

Maybe that's enough for you. But to say that it should be enough for me or every single one of your customers is utter nonsense. If a customer of yours tries to run a Salon2 at 12 feet at the loudness of a QUIET concert, he is going to clip the NAD amp. Last I heard, clipping is unhealthy for speakers.
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post #659 of 7452 Old 03-12-2008, 11:30 AM
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And I've repeatedly said 'go for it'. you won't use the power, but it won't hurt being there, especially since you're so determined it will make a difference for you. I would, however, check with Revel on the price of the woofers, since those will likely be the first to go when overdriven with deep bass, durable though they may be. The difference between these and a PA speaker is that the PA speaker is designed for massive SPL. These are not. Not the kind you are imagining in your head. Of course, it won't matter since you won't listen that loud or, if you do, you'll be losing your hearing as you do it. As my wife says, 'common sense is the least common of the senses'.

John
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post #660 of 7452 Old 03-12-2008, 11:47 AM
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Syswei - If the sensitivity of the Salon2 were a bit higher and you were sitting no more than 3 meters away, I would agree with Alimental. But with the lowish 86.4 dB sensitivity at 4 meters, I do not think that a 500 watt amp is unreasonable. Keep in mind that you do gain another 3 dB from two speakers. It looks like your calcs are based on a single speaker. Oh and I believe that THX spec is 105 dB peaks from the main channels, not 108 dB.
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