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post #6661 of 7264 Old 03-24-2014, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post


If a particular speaker has a harsh HF output, I would not call it musical. A speaker can be accurate and be harsh or not.
Some speakers are really soft on the HF others are not. But those that are not, still do not have to be harsh.
There is more to a speaker than its FR.


I like this definition "A speaker can be accurate and be harsh or not"  Personally, and for some reason the 208s sound harsh in my system. I have an NAD M51 and 4BSST2  At low volumes it sounds good. When I turn it up (which I traditionally like to do) it's not as enjoyable as my old Goldi's or Revel F30's. Anyway, could be my 10awg BlueJeans speaker cables or something else. In general however, I like the Revel design philosophy. Their goal as a designer is most compatible with my goal as a listener.

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post #6662 of 7264 Old 03-24-2014, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

You.......People....... J/K. biggrin.gif

I think if something is accurate, it tends to be a great replica of the original.

You don't say, "Hey, this camera is truly accurate, but the pictures come out too harsh". eek.gif

No, you say, "This camera is accurate because the colors and tones of the photos are so lifelike".

Same way with speakers. The piano plays the note of middle C. It does not sound harsh. If the speaker is accurate, the reproduction will sound just like the piano playing the note of middle C. It does not sound harsh.

If the speaker is inaccurate, then the reproduction will not sound like the original piano. It could sound harsh.

I like that, now all you have to do is find a properly recorded piano tongue.gifsmile.gif

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post #6663 of 7264 Old 03-24-2014, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ricjor1 View Post


Maybe Stereophile doesn't like them and didn't want to write a bad review. Maybe a review is in the works? Whatever the reason, as long as you enjoy them, nothing else matters. All kidding aside, Stereophile is in the business of making money and I've stop taking them seriously years ago.
That's fine but with a few notable exceptions on the Stereophile staff, I find their reviews insightful and backed with thorough measurements.
All of the Stereophile reviews of Revel have been highly complementary and honest, imo.
If fact, Kal and another writer's review of the the Revel Studio2s plus Robert Harley's review in TAS convinced me to seek them out for an audition
None of the above reviews wrote "I loved them so much I bought them!" as you often see.
Kal kept his B&Ws and I don't remember what the other writers own\owned.

I think one of your criticisms of Stereophile is a bit specious, any business is or should be in the business of making money, right?

 

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post #6664 of 7264 Old 03-24-2014, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by DKPS22 View Post


I like this definition "A speaker can be accurate and be harsh or not"  Personally, and for some reason the 208s sound harsh in my system. I have an NAD M51 and 4BSST2  At low volumes it sounds good. When I turn it up (which I traditionally like to do) it's not as enjoyable as my old Goldi's or Revel F30's. Anyway, could be my 10awg BlueJeans speaker cables or something else. In general however, I like the Revel design philosophy. Their goal as a designer is most compatible with my goal as a listener.

Sounds like you might have some comb filtering issues. Do you have any side and front wall treatments? I currently have BP7000SC's in a 1/2 way treated room and have the same issue at louder volumes. When I had no treatments, it was waaaay worse lol

I've actually been using head phones and a secondary system to ensure any harshness I hear is actually in the recording and not the main system. Helps give me peace of mind, just have to deal with the difference between bipolar vs direct radiating. I often find the bipolar can work for or against when compaired to direct radiating lol eek.gif
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post #6665 of 7264 Old 03-24-2014, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKPS22 View Post


I like this definition "A speaker can be accurate and be harsh or not"  Personally, and for some reason the 208s sound harsh in my system. I have an NAD M51 and 4BSST2  At low volumes it sounds good. When I turn it up (which I traditionally like to do) it's not as enjoyable as my old Goldi's or Revel F30's. Anyway, could be my 10awg BlueJeans speaker cables or something else. In general however, I like the Revel design philosophy. Their goal as a designer is most compatible with my goal as a listener.

If you have an overly reflective room, you can lower the tweeter level in the back. Mine is turned down -.5. It's too bright in my room at 0.

I'm glad they have these controls on the back.

Did you try pushing your midrange in? Maybe your F208 is defective.
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post #6666 of 7264 Old 03-24-2014, 06:40 PM
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Hi revel speaker owners ,soon to be revel f206 owner .


Cant wait for the speakers to arrive. cool.gif

Panasonic 65VT60 / Marantz SR7005 / Marantz UD7007 /PSA XS30 /Revel Performa3 F206 / Revel Performa3 C205 / Sonos Connect/ Roku 3 / Amazon Fire tv / Xbox One / HTPC / Darbee 5000 /Sonos system for rooms/
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post #6667 of 7264 Old 03-24-2014, 06:48 PM
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Congrats, I'm jealous smile.gif Did you get to demo them before you decided?
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post #6668 of 7264 Old 03-24-2014, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DKPS22 View Post
 


I like this definition "A speaker can be accurate and be harsh or not"  Personally, and for some reason the 208s sound harsh in my system. I have an NAD M51 and 4BSST2  At low volumes it sounds good. When I turn it up (which I traditionally like to do) it's not as enjoyable as my old Goldi's or Revel F30's. Anyway, could be my 10awg BlueJeans speaker cables or something else. In general however, I like the Revel design philosophy. Their goal as a designer is most compatible with my goal as a listener.


See my previous post concerning harsh sound from F208s. My new pair of F208s are totally free of harshness...they sound great at all volumes. I recently purchased a Parasound A21 and very curious to hear the F208s with the Parasound. Hopefully I'll have the A21 on Friday.

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post #6669 of 7264 Old 03-24-2014, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ricjor1 View Post


See my previous post concerning harsh sound from F208s. My new pair of F208s are totally free of harshness...they sound great at all volumes. I recently purchased a Parasound A21 and very curious to hear the F208s with the Parasound. Hopefully I'll have the A21 on Friday.

Very cool. My brother-in-laws A21 will be arriving at my house this weekend.

I might just hook it up. The A51 cured the harshness from the M2200 when driven hard.
The A21 should make a great match.

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post #6670 of 7264 Old 03-24-2014, 07:59 PM
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I think Rich hit on a very important point. Piano, violin and guitar are hard to record. Often I hear classical recordings where they mic the piano or violin too closely and it is harsh (one comes to mind recommended by Absolute Sound). I think in all the older jazz recordings, the mic for the piano is close to the strings for it to be more rhythmic but I’m sure the highs were attenuated.
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post #6671 of 7264 Old 03-24-2014, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post

Congrats, I'm jealous smile.gif Did you get to demo them before you decided?


unfortunately I haven't Demo the speakers but I'm pretty sure that I can live with their cons.

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post #6672 of 7264 Old 03-24-2014, 10:33 PM
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Thanks for those suggestions to reduce harshness.  Coincidentally, my GF came home with a big new thick throw-rug for the living room yesterday : )  I'll admit we had pure hardwood before that. It did make a difference. I'll also experiment with the tweeter idea and see what that yields. I'm not where I want to be quite yet with the sound but moving in the right direction. I can appreciate the person who went through the hassle of replacing the speakers. It might be a little late for me to pursue that path. Looking forward to that Stereophile review  : )   For me, all-in-all it's a thumbs up...

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post #6673 of 7264 Old 03-25-2014, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKPS22 View Post


I like this definition "A speaker can be accurate and be harsh or not"  Personally, and for some reason the 208s sound harsh in my system. I have an NAD M51 and 4BSST2  At low volumes it sounds good. When I turn it up (which I traditionally like to do) it's not as enjoyable as my old Goldi's or Revel F30's. Anyway, could be my 10awg BlueJeans speaker cables or something else. In general however, I like the Revel design philosophy. Their goal as a designer is most compatible with my goal as a listener.

First I doubt its the BJC causing the problem. If your room is overly live and/or the speakers are too close to the walls that can cause harshness in the HF. So then turning down the HF on the speaker can help (and adding wall panels). Or it could be the amp/speaker combo. Some amps mate well with a certain speaker and other don't.


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Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post

Sounds like you might have some comb filtering issues. Do you have any side and front wall treatments? I currently have BP7000SC's in a 1/2 way treated room and have the same issue at louder volumes. When I had no treatments, it was waaaay worse lol

I've actually been using head phones and a secondary system to ensure any harshness I hear is actually in the recording and not the main system. Helps give me peace of mind, just have to deal with the difference between bipolar vs direct radiating. I often find the bipolar can work for or against when compaired to direct radiating lol eek.gif

The ideal is to have a neutral room, not too live or too dead. Where I live, I do have a few panels, but I would need a lot more as these places are all concrete and tile!
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Very cool. My brother-in-laws A21 will be arriving at my house this weekend.

I might just hook it up. The A51 cured the harshness from the M2200 when driven hard.
The A21 should make a great match.

- Rich

My experience is that Revel/JBL speakers work really well with Parasound/Marantz/HK...
Onkyo, Yamaha leave much to be desired.

I also think that the quality of the pre-amp is much more important to good sound than the power amp.
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post #6674 of 7264 Old 03-25-2014, 06:20 AM
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I currently have BP7000SC's

I say just keep it and don't waste any money on diminishing returns. biggrin.gif

When I had the BP7000 + BP7001 + Trinity, I should have set them up with 5 LFE cables and let Audyssey XT sub EQ + DEQ do its magic.

Also should not have frequented audio forums with all the bad ideas about wasting money. biggrin.gif
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post #6675 of 7264 Old 03-25-2014, 06:22 AM
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I say just keep it and don't waste any money on diminishing returns. biggrin.gif

Yeah, that's what I might just get some M106 for strictly stereo. I man can only deal with so many speakers though lol
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post #6676 of 7264 Old 03-25-2014, 06:26 AM
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Hi revel speaker owners ,soon to be revel f206 owner .


Cant wait for the speakers to arrive. cool.gif

Congrats on a pair of very accurate speakers that do a great job reproducing the original contents faithfully. wink.gif
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post #6677 of 7264 Old 03-25-2014, 06:31 AM
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Yeah, that's what I might just get some M106 for strictly stereo. I man can only deal with so many speakers though lol

I say don't even waste the money. And stop coming to audio forums. Your mind will be brainwashed and corrupted. Probably already has. But you may still save yourself. Don't know.

I should have just kept my BP7000 + CLR3000 + BP7001 + Trinity. Set up with 5 LFE cables. Use Audyssey XT32 dual sub EQ + Dynamic EQ and be happy. And then stop coming to forums. biggrin.gif
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post #6678 of 7264 Old 03-25-2014, 06:44 AM
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I say don't even waste the money. And stop coming to audio forums. Your mind will be brainwashed and corrupted. Probably already has. But you may still save yourself. Don't know.

I should have just kept my BP7000 + CLR3000 + BP7001 + Trinity. Set up with 5 LFE cables. Use Audyssey XT32 dual sub EQ + Dynamic EQ and be happy. And then stop coming to forums. biggrin.gif

LOL very true. Upgrade to XT32 and sub EQ is on my list of upgrades I wanted to try before new speakers. Just waiting to see what new models may come out this year. cool.gif
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post #6679 of 7264 Old 03-25-2014, 06:07 PM
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Just looked at my digital sub to Stereophile and their 2014 Recommended Components;
An yes once again the Revel Studio2 is in the Class A Full Range category and yes they still are the least costly speakers in that group by $6,000.
The next lowest price speaker is the Revel Salon2.
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post #6680 of 7264 Old 03-26-2014, 08:32 AM
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Just looked at my digital sub to Stereophile and their 2014 Recommended Components;
An yes once again the Revel Studio2 is in the Class A Full Range category and yes they still are the least costly speakers in that group by $6,000.
The next lowest price speaker is the Revel Salon2.

They will be there until Revel discontinues the studio2.

I'm surprised at the studio2 being listed here, since it really doesn't go down to 20Hz. I thought that was the difference between Class A and Class A extreme LF.

I could be wrong but it almost discredits Stereophile. I know how great the studio2 is...no denying that - just an observation.
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post #6681 of 7264 Old 03-26-2014, 08:39 AM
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Have you read the review(s) and their measurements of the speaker?
If it doesn't meet their spec for Full Range they aren't going to declare it as such and hope no one notices.

 

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post #6682 of 7264 Old 03-26-2014, 10:50 AM
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Have you read the review(s) and their measurements of the speaker?
If it doesn't meet their spec for Full Range they aren't going to declare it as such and hope no one notices.

For the Stereophile categories—and I don't have the mag in front of me right now—full range doesn't go down to 20Hz. It's something in the low 30s if I recall. With that classification, both the Studio and the Salons meet the classification as full-range speakers.

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post #6683 of 7264 Old 03-26-2014, 11:55 AM
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For the Stereophile categories—and I don't have the mag in front of me right now—full range doesn't go down to 20Hz. It's something in the low 30s if I recall. With that classification, both the Studio and the Salons meet the classification as full-range speakers.

Loudspeaker Systems
Editor's Note: Class A "Loudspeakers" are sufficiently idiosyncratic and differ enough from one another that prospective customers should read Stereophile's original reviews in their entirety for descriptions of the sounds. I have therefore just listed every system or combination that at least one of Stereophile's reviewers feels, as a result of his or her experience, approaches the current state of the art in loudspeaker design. (Note that, to be eligible for inclusion in Class A, the system must be full-range—ie, feature bass extension to 20Hz. It must also be capable of reaching realistic sound-pressure levels without any feeling of strain.)
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post #6684 of 7264 Old 03-26-2014, 11:59 AM
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Loudspeaker Systems
Editor's Note: Class A "Loudspeakers" are sufficiently idiosyncratic and differ enough from one another that prospective customers should read Stereophile's original reviews in their entirety for descriptions of the sounds. I have therefore just listed every system or combination that at least one of Stereophile's reviewers feels, as a result of his or her experience, approaches the current state of the art in loudspeaker design. (Note that, to be eligible for inclusion in Class A, the system must be full-range—ie, feature bass extension to 20Hz. It must also be capable of reaching realistic sound-pressure levels without any feeling of strain.)

There must be a threshold there of -3db or -6bd at 20hz because I don't believe that every speaker listed goes to 20Hz flat.

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post #6685 of 7264 Old 03-26-2014, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Have you read the review(s) and their measurements of the speaker?
If it doesn't meet their spec for Full Range they aren't going to declare it as such and hope no one notices.

They were hoping but I noticed...I don't really care...but I still noticed.

(Note that, to be eligible for inclusion in Class A, the system must be full-range-ie, feature bass extension to 20Hz. It must also be capable of reaching realistic sound-pressure levels without any feeling of strain.)


Low-frequency extension: –10dB at 21Hz, –6dB at 25Hz, –3dB at 32Hz.

Aerial Acoustics Model 7T is +/-2 from 28Hz...it is listed under Class A (Extreme LF).
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post #6686 of 7264 Old 03-26-2014, 05:30 PM
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Did you look at all of the speaker measurements?
I didn't but I looked at the Salon2. Studio2 and the B&W 800 D.
The woofer combined with the port they all look almost identical to me in freq. response.
The Wilson XLF is -4 or 5 @ 20hz so does that no qualify?
So take it as you will, I know that there are very few speakers if any that are able to perform without subs for film soundtracks, but for music I think that the above speakers can be considered full range.
Perhaps there is something more than simple measurements that place these speakers as full range, I don't know but I still don't believe that Stereophile is fudging on their classification.
What would be the point? IF no speakers are essentially flat to 20hz then there would be no reason to have the classification, right?
Perhaps you can take up the classification with Kal Rubinson as he posts regularly on AVS.

 

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post #6687 of 7264 Old 03-26-2014, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by lsdec View Post

Aerial Acoustics Model 7T is +/-2 from 28Hz...it is listed under Class A (Extreme LF).

It is under Class A (Restricted Extreme LF), right at the top of that list.


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post #6688 of 7264 Old 03-26-2014, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

It is under Class A (Restricted Extreme LF), right at the top of that list.

That's what I meant restricted extreme LF, thank you. If I may, whyis the studio2 listed under full range? Are we talking in-room measurements going down to 20Hz?

You can see why I'm confused. I believe the studio2 is miscategorized...maybe I'm missing something.

Thanks!
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post #6689 of 7264 Old 03-27-2014, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by lsdec View Post


That's what I meant restricted extreme LF, thank you. If I may, whyis the studio2 listed under full range? Are we talking in-room measurements going down to 20Hz?

You can see why I'm confused. I believe the studio2 is miscategorized...maybe I'm missing something.

Thanks!

I believe the categorization is based on JA's measurements and listening.  I do not know where this has been made explicit but you can query him about it.


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post #6690 of 7264 Old 03-27-2014, 08:00 AM
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I believe the categorization is based on JA's measurements and listening.  I do not know where this has been made explicit but you can query him about it.

That's a good point. The measurements for the Studio2 that JA took are here: http://www.stereophile.com/content/revel-ultima-studio2-loudspeaker-room-measurements

By eyeball looks like a -8 or so at 20Hz. However the in-room response looks like it's going down to 24Hz or so.

If you look at the listing of speakers in the Restricted Extreme LF, several are bookshelf speakers—The Magico Q5 and a few others being exceptions.

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