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post #6841 of 7177 Old 04-21-2014, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Alsof1 View Post

WSE - I am not a huge EQ/ flat as possible fan ....my room is also quite reasonable

What I have done is to use the Classe SSP800 EQ to shelve up the higher frequencies by by between .5 and 1 db for a little more sparkle which works for me and my room using a Classe frequency table to calculate .

On the sub side by using 2 B&W DB1 subs in mono config have smoothed out the lower end sufficiently for my taste without losing the "balls " which EQ in my opinion sometimes does ( tried it /did not like it)

Classe Frequency table?

Also I am curious why B&W subwoofers rather than Revel? wink.gif
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post #6842 of 7177 Old 04-21-2014, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

Classe Frequency table?

Also I am curious why B&W subwoofers rather than Revel? wink.gif

Just a table listing the Frequencies and the Q effect at each frequency range which I got from Classe( makes life very easy in adjusting the EQ) - send me yr email address and I will send to you the pdf file.


Why B&W DB1 Subs?? Revel had no parts for my Sub 30 after the lightning strike and they took some 3 years in launching the Rhythm, so no sub was available ex Revel during this period - besides the DB1s are pretty good and needed two for my room .
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post #6843 of 7177 Old 04-21-2014, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Alsof1 View Post

Revel had no parts for my Sub 30 after the lightning strike.

What kind of parts? Plate amp?
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post #6844 of 7177 Old 04-21-2014, 12:42 PM
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What kind of parts? Plate amp?

Complete electronics which is the back plate with amps , EQ unit attached,etc . My insurance paid out some US$9k which was a Rhythm replacement cost had it been available and collected as salvage - no doubt someone could have repaired it , but was happy to walk away at that stage .
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post #6845 of 7177 Old 04-21-2014, 02:41 PM
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Now that's what I call a real "main bookshelf" speaker, unlike the Gem2. biggrin.gif

Proof right there that "newer" isn't always "better".


Agreed...........these are for sure ,proper real deal Gems !!
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post #6846 of 7177 Old 04-21-2014, 03:32 PM
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SyntheticShrimp,

Diffraction does indeed impact imaging, as well as both on- and off-axis responses. While low frequency extension is the most obvious difference between two excellent speakers, it is the more subtle differences that really make the magic. The Salon2/Studio2 tweeter and freedom from diffraction are unique in my experience in their ability to "peel away the layers" between you and the music. But unlike many revealing speakers, they do so with such low distortion that there is a sense of "cleanliness" for want of a better word that it is truly possible to better enjoy the music.

While I worked with Dr. Toole for many years, beginning when I used to rent the NRC to do Snell engineering, I really needed to have the single-speaker comparison proved to me, as it seemed counter to common sense. Indeed, I am more than just a "convert." There is no question that it is the most sensitive and reveling test that can be done between speakers. The reduction in your ability to hear more subtle difference is very clearly reduced in two-channel stereo, and far more so as you add additional channels. What is most surprising is the ability to sense depth and something that if not actual "imaging" as we usually think of it is closely akin to it, and is a very reliable predictor of two-channel imaging.

Best regards,
Kevin
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post #6847 of 7177 Old 04-21-2014, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by avkv View Post

SyntheticShrimp,

Diffraction does indeed impact imaging, as well as both on- and off-axis responses. While low frequency extension is the most obvious difference between two excellent speakers, it is the more subtle differences that really make the magic. The Salon2/Studio2 tweeter and freedom from diffraction are unique in my experience in their ability to "peel away the layers" between you and the music. But unlike many revealing speakers, they do so with such low distortion that there is a sense of "cleanliness" for want of a better word that it is truly possible to better enjoy the music.

While I worked with Dr. Toole for many years, beginning when I used to rent the NRC to do Snell engineering, I really needed to have the single-speaker comparison proved to me, as it seemed counter to common sense. Indeed, I am more than just a "convert." There is no question that it is the most sensitive and reveling test that can be done between speakers. The reduction in your ability to hear more subtle difference is very clearly reduced in two-channel stereo, and far more so as you add additional channels. What is most surprising is the ability to sense depth and something that if not actual "imaging" as we usually think of it is closely akin to it, and is a very reliable predictor of two-channel imaging.

Best regards,
Kevin
Well I've known that it is much more difficult to evaluate multi channel over stereo, I never realized the single speaker would be even better than stereo for doing critical evaluations. It makes sense, but I doubt I would have come to that conclusion. Kevin, thanks for sharing!

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, DBP 2010, Samsung BD-C7900, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650. Sitting still CCM616, Kef...
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post #6848 of 7177 Old 04-21-2014, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by avkv View Post

SyntheticShrimp,

Diffraction does indeed impact imaging, as well as both on- and off-axis responses. While low frequency extension is the most obvious difference between two excellent speakers, it is the more subtle differences that really make the magic. The Salon2/Studio2 tweeter and freedom from diffraction are unique in my experience in their ability to "peel away the layers" between you and the music. But unlike many revealing speakers, they do so with such low distortion that there is a sense of "cleanliness" for want of a better word that it is truly possible to better enjoy the music.

While I worked with Dr. Toole for many years, beginning when I used to rent the NRC to do Snell engineering, I really needed to have the single-speaker comparison proved to me, as it seemed counter to common sense. Indeed, I am more than just a "convert." There is no question that it is the most sensitive and reveling test that can be done between speakers. The reduction in your ability to hear more subtle difference is very clearly reduced in two-channel stereo, and far more so as you add additional channels. What is most surprising is the ability to sense depth and something that if not actual "imaging" as we usually think of it is closely akin to it, and is a very reliable predictor of two-channel imaging.

Best regards,
Kevin
"Cleanness" and "clarity" are just some of the many such descriptions that made me fall in love with the Salon2s. It's just...there, with nothing in between.

Kevin if I can ask, anything specific I should be looking at for the right amps to match with my Salon2s? My Lexicon CX-7 is really not a good mate with the Salons and I start to get a harshness once I start to go closer to 70db on the SPL. I tried an Ayre with similar power specs and it had no such problems.

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post #6849 of 7177 Old 04-21-2014, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Thxtheater View Post

"Cleanness" and "clarity" are just some of the many such descriptions that made me fall in love with the Salon2s. It's just...there, with nothing in between.

Kevin if I can ask, anything specific I should be looking at for the right amps to match with my Salon2s? My Lexicon CX-7 is really not a good mate with the Salons and I start to get a harshness once I start to go closer to 70db on the SPL. I tried an Ayre with similar power specs and it had no such problems.
Hopefully Kevin will weigh in but I've got to imagine the Mcintosch MC452 would be a great amp for the Salons. The 452 is supposed to be a notable step up from the 302 but pretty close to the 601s.

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post #6850 of 7177 Old 04-21-2014, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Thxtheater View Post

"Cleanness" and "clarity" are just some of the many such descriptions that made me fall in love with the Salon2s. It's just...there, with nothing in between.

Kevin if I can ask, anything specific I should be looking at for the right amps to match with my Salon2s? My Lexicon CX-7 is really not a good mate with the Salons and I start to get a harshness once I start to go closer to 70db on the SPL. I tried an Ayre with similar power specs and it had no such problems.

The Parasound A51 does a great job driving my Salon(1)s.

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post #6851 of 7177 Old 04-21-2014, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by avkv View Post

SyntheticShrimp,

Diffraction does indeed impact imaging, as well as both on- and off-axis responses. While low frequency extension is the most obvious difference between two excellent speakers, it is the more subtle differences that really make the magic. The Salon2/Studio2 tweeter and freedom from diffraction are unique in my experience in their ability to "peel away the layers" between you and the music. But unlike many revealing speakers, they do so with such low distortion that there is a sense of "cleanliness" for want of a better word that it is truly possible to better enjoy the music.

While I worked with Dr. Toole for many years, beginning when I used to rent the NRC to do Snell engineering, I really needed to have the single-speaker comparison proved to me, as it seemed counter to common sense. Indeed, I am more than just a "convert." There is no question that it is the most sensitive and reveling test that can be done between speakers. The reduction in your ability to hear more subtle difference is very clearly reduced in two-channel stereo, and far more so as you add additional channels. What is most surprising is the ability to sense depth and something that if not actual "imaging" as we usually think of it is closely akin to it, and is a very reliable predictor of two-channel imaging.

Best regards,
Kevin

Thank you Kevin for taking the time to respond to my question.

I do believe in the merits of testing in mono, but I had the impression that it was most useful for comparing "high value" qualities of a reproduction, such as spaciousness and flat frequency response, that have been highly correlated with preference. I tend to think of imaging that results from low diffraction as one of those garnishings that separates great speakers from excellent ones. It's fascinating to hear that one can also predict imaging qualities from mono tests.

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post #6852 of 7177 Old 04-21-2014, 08:13 PM
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So does anyone have experience with Parasound JC1s and the Salon2s? That would make a pretty nice combo, I would guess.

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, DBP 2010, Samsung BD-C7900, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650. Sitting still CCM616, Kef...
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post #6853 of 7177 Old 04-22-2014, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Thxtheater View Post

"Cleanness" and "clarity" are just some of the many such descriptions that made me fall in love with the Salon2s. It's just...there, with nothing in between.

Kevin if I can ask, anything specific I should be looking at for the right amps to match with my Salon2s? My Lexicon CX-7 is really not a good mate with the Salons and I start to get a harshness once I start to go closer to 70db on the SPL. I tried an Ayre with similar power specs and it had no such problems.

Thxtheater,

I'm afraid there just isn't any way to keep up with all the amp/speaker combinations for me to make a useful recommendation. However, I certainly can give you some guidelines. The Salon2s are a somewhat challenging load--certainly by far the most challenging of any Revel speaker. As with all speaker/amp combinations, the more power, the better. Amps clip micro-dynamics long before it becomes recognizable as clipping. More often than not, the difference in sound quality between two amplifiers is largely their ability to drive the load to the listener's desired level without clipping, even for very short periods. Given all that, it is not surprising to find two amplifiers that are nominally the same power into a given static load that perform quite differently with real-world loads. The Ayre is an example of an amplifier that I have heard sounding great with the Salon2s. But keep in mind that we get many messages from happy owners of numerous brands of amplifiers with which they find a perfect match. That includes tube amplifiers, which I would guess is due to their modern brethren tending to have much lower output impedances than older models.

Best regards,
Kevin
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post #6854 of 7177 Old 04-22-2014, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by avkv View Post

Thxtheater,

I'm afraid there just isn't any way to keep up with all the amp/speaker combinations for me to make a useful recommendation. However, I certainly can give you some guidelines. The Salon2s are a somewhat challenging load--certainly by far the most challenging of any Revel speaker. As with all speaker/amp combinations, the more power, the better. Amps clip micro-dynamics long before it becomes recognizable as clipping. More often than not, the difference in sound quality between two amplifiers is largely their ability to drive the load to the listener's desired level without clipping, even for very short periods. Given all that, it is not surprising to find two amplifiers that are nominally the same power into a given static load that perform quite differently with real-world loads. The Ayre is an example of an amplifier that I have heard sounding great with the Salon2s. But keep in mind that we get many messages from happy owners of numerous brands of amplifiers with which they find a perfect match. That includes tube amplifiers, which I would guess is due to their modern brethren tending to have much lower output impedances than older models.

Best regards,
Kevin

That's a huge, huge help Kevin. I read an article on Audioholics about Red Dragon amps that interestingly had 1000WPC mono and had trouble with the Salons but the 500wpc version mono performed just fine. The 500wpc monoblock version had updated electronics in them. My curiosity was obviously raised when one of the speakers put against the Red Dragons was a pair of Salon2s. The conclusions in the review were identical to what you stated above about the load that the Salon2s produce.

Yes, the Ayre sounded really great, but at only 150wpc. With the 150wpc Ayre, I felt that the bass needed more power behind it to really let the speakers open up like they are capable of.

Your response validated quite a bit for me and I have a short list of amps I'm going to be trying out.

Again, many many thanks Kevin!

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post #6855 of 7177 Old 04-22-2014, 07:07 PM
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Big help by Kevin. I like how he is always willing to lend a hand.

I hope this is the end of all amps sound the same argument..etc. smile.gif
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post #6856 of 7177 Old 04-23-2014, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by avkv View Post

As with all speaker/amp combinations, the more power, the better.

Really?

For example, do you think it's appropriate to recommend a 500W into 8 ohm amp if a speaker's max power rating is 200W?

I wonder why speaker engineers would recommend a 200W max power rating for some of the speakers (Revel F206) they designed if more power is better?

So why do Revel and other speaker manufacturers recommend a max power rating for their speakers of 1000W or less If they think that speakers are BETTER with 2000W of power?

Could it be that if people played highly dynamically compressed materials at high volume and the amp is rated higher than the speaker, the amp could still clip and damage the drivers?

I think people need to use the appropriate amp for the situation, not the most powerful amp possible.

Perhaps Mark Glazer (revelman) could answer this "speaker power rating vs. amp power" question.

What is the max power rating on the Salon2/Studio2 anyway? Could they handle a 4000WPC amp?
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post #6857 of 7177 Old 04-23-2014, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by avkv View Post

... As with all speaker/amp combinations, the more power, the better. Amps clip micro-dynamics long before it becomes recognizable as clipping. More often than not, the difference in sound quality between two amplifiers is largely their ability to drive the load to the listener's desired level without clipping, even for very short periods. Given all that, it is not surprising to find two amplifiers that are nominally the same power into a given static load that perform quite differently with real-world loads.
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Big help by Kevin. I like how he is always willing to lend a hand.

I hope this is the end of all amps sound the same argument..etc. smile.gif

In a perfect world, yes.
In reality, no. tongue.gifsmile.gif

For some reason, the notion that amps compress when clipping before producing audible and gross distortion is apparently controversial.
Many class-D have soft-clipping circuits which, unless they reduce all frequencies equally when clipping, are going to compress.

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post #6858 of 7177 Old 04-23-2014, 12:20 PM
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First of all, if the speaker were ACTIVE, the clipping would be a lot more severe. But since these speakers are all PASSIVE, the actual amount of clipping that actually affects the drivers is probably a lot less than speculated.

And then there is the magnitude of the clipping. Most of the time, it isn't very significant, especially in passive speakers. So most of the time, the very short period of innocuous clipping isn't going to differentiate the sound quality of 2 amps.

This discussion began with a discussion of Revel Salon 2s .
Less generally speaking. Some of the time, clipping will be long enough to differentiate the sound quality tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #6859 of 7177 Old 04-23-2014, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by avkv View Post

More often than not, the difference in sound quality between two amplifiers is largely their ability to drive the load to the listener's desired level without clipping, even for very short periods. Given all that, it is not surprising to find two amplifiers that are nominally the same power into a given static load that perform quite differently with real-world loads. The Ayre is an example of an amplifier that I have heard sounding great with the Salon2s.

I think the take-home message here is, if the amp/speaker SOUNDS great to you, then it's great regardless of whether it is 100W or 500W or the brand of the amp.
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post #6860 of 7177 Old 04-23-2014, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

A lot less often than you think since most speakers (like the Salon2) typically will require less than 150WPC.

HTM reviewed the entire Ultima2 system with an ATI 150WPC amp and it never affected the sound quality in any way.

No doubt, ATI makes excellent, conservatively rated amplifiers.
It all depends on how hard you drive them. I have also seen reviews of the Salons with 1kw mono-blocks.
At some level, they will outperform the 150's, that does not mean that a particular user needs or wants that power.

Salons can handle the power, the listener may not though tongue.gif

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post #6861 of 7177 Old 04-23-2014, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Really?

For example, do you think it's appropriate to recommend a 500W into 8 ohm amp if a speaker's max power rating is 200W?

Sure. What could it hurt? If you listen too loud, the drivers will distort and/or compress. Better than clipping the amp and seriously damaging a driver.
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I wonder why speaker engineers would recommend a 200W max power rating for some of the speakers (Revel F206) they designed if more power is better?

Perhaps that is where the drivers will start distorting?
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

So why do Revel and other speaker manufacturers recommend a max power rating for their speakers of 1000W or less If they think that speakers are BETTER with 2000W of power?
If you have a speaker with 50 watts max power and an amp with 50 watts max power and drive it so that the amp attempts to deliver 60 watts and clips, that is much worse for the speaker than if the amp actually delivers the 60 watts cleanly.
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Could it be that if people played highly dynamically compressed materials at high volume and the amp is rated higher than the speaker, the amp could still clip and damage the drivers?

Sure. You could have 100w max speakers and feed them with an AVR that delivered 125w and overdrive both amp and speaker and damage the drivers. I'm not sure what the point of this question is.
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I think people need to use the appropriate amp for the situation, not the most powerful amp possible.

No sense in paying for more power if you don't need it but better to have more than not enough.
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Perhaps Mark Glazer (revelman) could answer this "speaker power rating vs. amp power" question.

I'm sure you don't mean to imply Kevin doesn't know what he's talking about but that's the way your post comes across to me. I respect his opinion very much and am glad he's on here answering our questions even if I don't currently own any Revels.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #6862 of 7177 Old 04-23-2014, 12:55 PM
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Sure. What could it hurt?

What could using an amp that is rated at twice the power rating of the speaker do? It could blow the speakers. That is what it could do.

Active speakers are a lot more at risk than passive speakers from getting drivers blown due to high amp power. Why do you think Linkwitz discouraged using amps higher than 60WPC when he first released the Orion towers? Excessive power blows speakers. That is why?

Passive speakers are less at risk. But it can still happen.
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post #6863 of 7177 Old 04-23-2014, 12:57 PM
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So now I ask for a recommended amp for the Revel f206? I'm driving the speakers with a Marantz sr7005, do I need more power ?

Panasonic 65VT60 / Marantz SR7005 / Marantz UD7007 /PSA XS30 /Revel Performa3 F206 / Revel Performa3 C205 / Sonos Connect / Roku 3 / Amazon Fire tv / Xbox One / HTPC / Darbee 5000 /
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post #6864 of 7177 Old 04-23-2014, 01:06 PM
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What could using an amp that is rated at twice the power rating of the speaker do? It could blow the speakers. That is what it could do.

+1

Clipping in and of itself does not damage a driver. It's the results of clipping which is sending excessive current to the driver that causes the damage. You can easily do that in the absence of clipping. Bridge an LG 14K amp and turn it all the way up without clipping the signal and you'll fry just about any speaker out there. They key is to pair a speaker with an amp that will provide sufficient power for the application. Better to go over than under, but caution and protection should be put in place if there is too much power on tap. This is where understanding power requirements comes into play and not just max wattage a speaker can handle vs. max power an amp can deliver.
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post #6865 of 7177 Old 04-23-2014, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post

So now I ask for a recommended amp for the Revel f206? I'm driving the speakers with a Marantz sr7005, do I need more power ?

That all depends on how far you sit from the speaker, how loud you listen and if you crossover to a sub.
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post #6866 of 7177 Old 04-23-2014, 01:27 PM
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So now I ask for a recommended amp for the Revel f206? I'm driving the speakers with a Marantz sr7005, do I need more power ?

My friend has the F206s which were originally driven by a pair of M2200 class a/c/g mono blocks.
He listens loud and drives them full range using the Grotto-I controls.

The m2200s could became harsh sounding when listening to some content at -25.
He replaced it the M2200s with a Parasound a21 and there is no problem listening to -25 and above, other than the volume is loud.

On paper, these amps are not very different in power into 8 and 4 ohms: 200/300 for the M2200 and 250/400 for the A21.

Listening to -55, the M2200 sounds just fine.
I suspect this had a lot to do with their design which transitions into G mode above 70 watts of a/b.

I do not believe that an answer based solely on watts can be incomplete.
Theses speakers were engineered not to compress sound, it is best to have sufficient amplification to permit them to be driven at your preferred listening levels without clipping

As you have said before, 200/300 from a well built amp seems to be the sweet spot.
The A21 seems at ease driving these speakers to their maximum performance.
However, I'd bet the ATI 150 should be fine.

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post #6867 of 7177 Old 04-23-2014, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

What could using an amp that is rated at twice the power rating of the speaker do? It could blow the speakers. That is what it could do.

Sure it could. If you're stupid enough to turn it up all the way, you're going to run into that with just about any amp though.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #6868 of 7177 Old 04-23-2014, 02:13 PM
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RichB Thank you!


The seating distance is about 12' or 13' , I will check later.


I use a subwoofer with the towers but sometimes only use the towers.

Panasonic 65VT60 / Marantz SR7005 / Marantz UD7007 /PSA XS30 /Revel Performa3 F206 / Revel Performa3 C205 / Sonos Connect / Roku 3 / Amazon Fire tv / Xbox One / HTPC / Darbee 5000 /
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post #6869 of 7177 Old 04-23-2014, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post

RichB thanks ,guys more recommendations are welcome.


The seating distance is about 12' or 13' , I will check later.


I use a subwoofer with the towers but sometimes only use the towers.

Just for a comparison, With my Salon2s I draw about 14W peak at reference at ~9' when run small and crossed over to a sub at 80Hz. I'm sure pretty much ANY receiver or amp out there can manage that with no issues. Running them full range is where it gets tricky as the lower frequencies are where the lion's share of the power is used. At you distance, you would need well north of 250W to achieve peak reference SPLs. Do you listen to your speakers at 105dBs peaks? If not, for every 3dBs under that you will be able to cut power requirements by half. At 100dBs you will only need 128W. Go down another 3dBs and you will now only need 64W. These are only ballpark figures, but you can see how much power you will need for a given volume. I say, listen to your speakers on the Marantz. If you here the speakers sounding harsh at higher volumes you need an amp. If the sound quality sounds the same, just louder then you're ok with the Marantz.
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post #6870 of 7177 Old 04-23-2014, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

What could using an amp that is rated at twice the power rating of the speaker do? It could blow the speakers. That is what it could do.
Passive speakers are less at risk. But it can still happen.

Over driving a low watt power amp to distortion will destroy a speaker much faster than an amp at twice the rated power of the speaker.
If you connected a 400w amp to a 100w rated speakers, you would blow out your ears before you would destroy the speakers.
I have connected a 400w amp to a 100w speaker (bridged a Citation 19 amp connected to the centre channel)...and listening with the pre-amp at the same level as I usually listen to would only increase the output by 6 db, compared to a 100w amp.
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