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post #7111 of 7333 Old 06-07-2014, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by neutralguy View Post

Here's what the director of research at Revel who oversees countless double-blind tests, and current president of the AES, says about the topic: "The audible differences between well-designed amplifiers tested within their linear operating range are difficult to reliably measure with human subjects."

For the record I'm using HK990 with Salon2 and Belden 5000UP cables. I see many other posters here using choices of similar sanity as opposed to what's expected in the audiophile voodoo world.

I wish one day Revel would man up and make explicit recommendations about upstream electronics consistent with their beliefs.
They do, in a way. The recommendation with the Salon2s are to use 500wpc into 6ohms max. The Saloms were designed with the Levinson No53s which are 600wpc into 8 ohms so I always found the 500wpc recommendation odd. As long as the amp is stable into 2ohms that's the general gist of the recommendations.

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post #7112 of 7333 Old 06-07-2014, 06:31 PM
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***The Saloms were designed with the Levinson No53s***

You do know the Salon line predates that amp by about half a decade, right?

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post #7113 of 7333 Old 06-07-2014, 06:44 PM
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However, my broader point was that so long as Revel's parent company owns any company that sells luxury-priced amplifiers, they would not make a statement against interest about amplifiers, even though their engineers and all of their customers who know the research know the facts.

Your point about risking the displeasure of dealers is another important reason why they'd never come out and state obvious-to-us facts about amplification.

Harman itself, in their speaker lines, has already shown that speaking the truth about science does not preclude them from selling multiple lines at vastly disparate prices. Their research division has repeated stated (papers and presentations from Toole, Olive) that a speaker's performance is highly correlated with its measurements. At the same time, Harman sells the $300 JBL LSR305 and the $400 Infinity Primus P363 as well as the Salon2. All of these speakers measure very well according to the criteria laid out by the research. Within the Revel line, I am hard pressed to distinguish a difference in measurements between the F208 and 4x pricier Salon2.

Is Revel being disingenious or sabotaging sales with these multiple speaker lines? I think not. First, there's still the possibility that there are differences in measurements beyond those published, or propriety science not yet published. Second, there's reason to prefer one product over another for superior measured performance, even if the difference is so minor as to be inaudible. It provides psychological comfort and pride if nothing else. Finally, there are differences in looks, features, and dealer support.

The bottom line is that promoting science is not inconsistent with having products of different price levels offering similar measured performance. What I'd like to see is not necessarily Harman coming out and recommending one specific amplifier, but to make a statement similar to that which I quoted above from its director, but in an official capacity in its literature. If dealers were to be displeased by it, they should already be displeased at Revel offering the 4x cheaper F208.

Yes, it is hard to see Revel gaining an immediate financial benefit from such action. It would only be to dispel voodoo for the good of the audiophile community, at the risk of possibly hurting sales. That's why it would take some courage and philanthropic desire.
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post #7114 of 7333 Old 06-07-2014, 06:47 PM
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You do know the Salon line predates that amp by about half a decade, right?

Salon2s. Sorry I wasn't more clear. I had called support asking about amp pairings for the salon 2 and that was part of our discussion. They told me that the Salon 2s were really paired with the Levinson monoblocks.

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post #7115 of 7333 Old 06-08-2014, 08:50 AM
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Salon2s. Sorry I wasn't more clear. I had called support asking about amp pairings for the salon 2 and that was part of our discussion. They told me that the Salon 2s were really paired with the Levinson monoblocks.

Well, that claim is slightly different from your claim above. But if anyone told you the current Salons were designed using the Levinson monoblocs, they lied. Simple as that. The current Salon predates the Class D Levinson monobloc by half a decade or so.
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Originally Posted by neutralguy View Post

Harman itself, in their speaker lines, has already shown that speaking the truth about science does not preclude them from selling multiple lines at vastly disparate prices. Their research division has repeated stated (papers and presentations from Toole, Olive) that a speaker's performance is highly correlated with its measurements. At the same time, Harman sells the $300 JBL LSR305 and the $400 Infinity Primus P363 as well as the Salon2. All of these speakers measure very well according to the criteria laid out by the research. Within the Revel line, I am hard pressed to distinguish a difference in measurements between the F208 and 4x pricier Salon2.

Speakers are out of the scope of amplifiers.

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post #7116 of 7333 Old 06-08-2014, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Well, that claim is slightly different from your claim above. But if anyone told you the current Salons were designed using the Levinson monoblocs, they lied. Simple as that. The current Salon predates the Class D Levinson monobloc by half a decade or so.
Speakers are out of the scope of amplifiers.

Curious then what they were designed with. I had called support inquiring about specs on certain amps I was looking at for the Salon 2s and that's how the statement came up. What amps were the Salons designed and tested with?

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post #7117 of 7333 Old 06-08-2014, 07:27 PM
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What amps were the Salons designed and tested with?

Probably whatever solid state amp with low source impedance was on hand, because it doesn't really matter.

While I have no inside knowledge, others have written elsewhere that they've seen an ATI amp somewhere at Harman, which passes the smell test because ATI amps are well built and reliable amps that aren't horribly expensive. (ATI also OEMs some Lexicon, Mark Levinson, and JBL Synthesis amps for Harman.) Those same reasons are why a lot of us (self included) use ATI amps in our systems. But there's nothing super-special about ATI amps.

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post #7118 of 7333 Old 06-08-2014, 08:08 PM
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While I have no inside knowledge, others have written elsewhere that they've seen an ATI amp somewhere at Harman, which passes the smell test because ATI amps are well built and reliable amps that aren't horribly expensive. (ATI also OEMs some Lexicon, Mark Levinson, and JBL Synthesis amps for Harman.) Those same reasons are why a lot of us (self included) use ATI amps in our systems. But there's nothing super-special about ATI amps.

Sure there is, they are well built bullet proof and have overbuilt power supplies.
I was happy with the performance of the ATI3005 but there was transformer hum.

I ended up with a Parasound A51 which is dead quiet and drives the Salon 1's very well.

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post #7119 of 7333 Old 06-08-2014, 08:30 PM
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Curious then what they were designed with. I had called support inquiring about specs on certain amps I was looking at for the Salon 2s and that's how the statement came up. What amps were the Salons designed and tested with?

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Probably whatever solid state amp with low source impedance was on hand, because it doesn't really matter.

I wonder if we are talking about Levinson No.33's or No.33h's?

I have seen some No.33h's before. Huge!!


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post #7120 of 7333 Old 06-08-2014, 09:15 PM
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Actually the monoblocks can be really big. These are some really big amps! (I think this a pair of 33's, the girls are at least 18!?!)

eek.gif


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post #7121 of 7333 Old 06-09-2014, 04:40 AM
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Actually the monoblocks can be really big. These are some really big amps! (I think this a pair of 33's, the girls are at least 18!?!)

eek.gif


I think you just sold some amps tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #7122 of 7333 Old 06-09-2014, 07:33 AM
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Actually the monoblocks can be really big. These are some really big amps! (I think this a pair of 33's, the girls are at least 18!?!)

eek.gif


Amps? What amps?
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post #7123 of 7333 Old 06-10-2014, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I wouldn't switch out the XPR-5 for an A-21 personally.
Are you running a 5.1 system?
Just curious why you have an XPR-5 if you're doing just 2-channel.

I very much like Parasound Halo amps but in a head-to-head with the JC-1s and XPR-1s none of us could discern any difference whatsoever and the price differential is substantial.

I have an XPR-5, and a pair of Theta Enterprise monoblocks. After a year or so of switching back and forth I can detect no difference in my Studio2's. In addition the XPR has been more reliable and power efficient. I'm selling the Thetas.

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post #7124 of 7333 Old 06-10-2014, 07:11 PM
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I have an XPR-5, and a pair of Theta Enterprise monoblocks. After a year or so of switching back and forth I can detect no difference in my Studio2's. In addition the XPR has been more reliable and power efficient. I'm selling the Thetas.

What do you mean by more reliable? Do the Theta monoblocks go into thermal protection or anything like that?

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post #7125 of 7333 Old 06-10-2014, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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What do you mean by more reliable? Do the Theta monoblocks go into thermal protection or anything like that?

I've had some issues with the 12V triggers.

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post #7126 of 7333 Old 06-11-2014, 04:11 AM
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I've had some issues with the 12V triggers.

Got it. Are they pulse or true 12v. Some of the previous gen Thetas had pulse instead of 12v triggers. Pulse triggers are enough to drive anyone nuts.

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post #7127 of 7333 Old 06-12-2014, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Got it. Are they pulse or true 12v. Some of the previous gen Thetas had pulse instead of 12v triggers. Pulse triggers are enough to drive anyone nuts.
They were originally pulse. One now has a module that lets you select either. By the time I'm done they both will.

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post #7128 of 7333 Old 06-12-2014, 07:44 AM
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Quote:Originally Posted by zuluwalker

Actually the monoblocks can be really big. These are some really big amps! (I think this a pair of 33's, the girls are at least 18!?!)






Amps? What amps?
No kidding. I see no amps here.
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post #7129 of 7333 Old 06-12-2014, 03:18 PM
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We have an F208 review in Stereophile's July issue. Just reading it now.


Added: The measurements look as good as hoped for.


"Summing up the Revel's measured performance is easy: In every way, this is textbook loudspeaker design. It's no wonder that Erick Lichte liked this speaker as much as he did. -John Atkinson."


Whatever I think of magazine reviews, at least Stereophile's measurements are consistent.
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post #7130 of 7333 Old 06-15-2014, 07:48 AM
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I am very excited about the F-208. This coming purchase has been a long time in the making since they were first announced.

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post #7131 of 7333 Old 06-15-2014, 01:22 PM
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I am very excited about the F-208.
As well you should be! Have you had much chance to hear them? Were there other speakers that you seriously considered before deciding on Performa3? I'm always curious how people make their decisions and what they hear/see in their chosen speakers.
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post #7132 of 7333 Old 06-15-2014, 04:10 PM
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No tickee, no laundry.

It appears that the Chinese laundry man had it down.


An informal check on Harman's advertising in the top four consumer audio/video trade magazines indicates they stopped all ads more than two years ago. No Revel, JBL, Mark Levinson, Lexicon or Crown. Since then almost no reviews. The Performa3 line was first shown at the 2012 CES and impressed several of the popular reviewers. This went nowhere. The new Stereophile review is the first major one of the F208 in the 2-1/2 years since it's launch date that I know of. The Mark Levinson no. 53 monos ($52k/pair) got a bad review from Stereophile last year. I do not recall seeing anything on the other brands.


Anyone else believe there might be a correlation here?
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post #7133 of 7333 Old 06-15-2014, 04:25 PM
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It appears that the Chinese laundry man had it down.


An informal check on Harman's advertising in the top four consumer audio/video trade magazines indicates they stopped all ads more than two years ago. No Revel, JBL, Mark Levinson, Lexicon or Crown. Since then almost no reviews. The Performa3 line was first shown at the 2012 CES and impressed several of the popular reviewers. This went nowhere. The new Stereophile review is the first major one of the F208 in the 2-1/2 years since it's launch date that I know of. The Mark Levinson no. 53 monos ($52k/pair) got a bad review from Stereophile last year. I do not recall seeing anything on the other brands.


Anyone else believe there might be a correlation here?
Sound and vision reviewed the performa3 series a while ago.
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post #7134 of 7333 Old 06-15-2014, 05:56 PM
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^^^
In addition to the aforementioned S&V review there was an article on S&V comparing the Performa3 and Ultima2 lines at Harmon's facility.

Brett Butterworth also reviewed the F206 and F208 for Home Theater Review very favorably. He ended up buying the F206's.

The F206's and M106's were also reviewed by 6Moons way back.

Also, it took Revel something like 9 months to launch the speakers after they were shown at CES.

That said, it does seem like there has been very little in the way of reviews on this line.
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post #7135 of 7333 Old 06-15-2014, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by zuluwalker View Post
I am very excited about the F-208.
As well you should be! Have you had much chance to hear them? Were there other speakers that you seriously considered before deciding on Performa3? I'm always curious how people make their decisions and what they hear/see in their chosen speakers.
I have spent a silly amount of time listening to the F-206, C-208, and F-208's. I can say they are right for me, for sure.

Other brands I have compared at this time are Triad, Paradigm, and Porcella. For the most part the Paradigm Signature series never really stole my breath away. Triad had moments of greatness, and then after several hours of listening revealed it's limitations (Gold Line, Inwall). And Porcella and I really just never got along. Sure the SPL on the Porcella could go way up there, but it lacked the emotional connection I wanted.

How I made my decision you ask; I based it on if the speaker delivered an emotional connection for me during playback. What is also something to behold is that sexy finish in Walnut. Oh my...

A I listen to my own test material that is meaningful to myself, I went in seeking to be open. And I allowed myself to be caught up into the media of what was playing. I try very hard not to focus on the technical side of reviewing the equipment, but instead I focus on what matters most to me, will my media sound good. And if I feel emotionally compelled to enjoy, cringe, anticipate, or hold my breath to capture the reality being played back, then we have a deal.

For me, this was Performa3. I am very excited.

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post #7136 of 7333 Old 06-15-2014, 10:03 PM
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It doesn't seem like the Performa3 has been ignored by the press...latest being Stereophile that I read over the weekend.

Every review has been superb for that matter. I'm not sure what more people expect. I think they will be class B Stereophile recommended component next year.

I bought mine before any reviews were out...I reviewed them .
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post #7137 of 7333 Old 06-15-2014, 10:45 PM
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I have spent a silly amount of time listening to the F-206, C-208, and F-208's. I can say they are right for me, for sure.

Other brands I have compared at this time are Triad, Paradigm, and Porcella. For the most part the Paradigm Signature series never really stole my breath away. Triad had moments of greatness, and then after several hours of listening revealed it's limitations (Gold Line, Inwall). And Porcella and I really just never got along. Sure the SPL on the Porcella could go way up there, but it lacked the emotional connection I wanted.

How I made my decision you ask; I based it on if the speaker delivered an emotional connection for me during playback. What is also something to behold is that sexy finish in Walnut. Oh my...

A I listen to my own test material that is meaningful to myself, I went in seeking to be open. And I allowed myself to be caught up into the media of what was playing. I try very hard not to focus on the technical side of reviewing the equipment, but instead I focus on what matters most to me, will my media sound good. And if I feel emotionally compelled to enjoy, cringe, anticipate, or hold my breath to capture the reality being played back, then we have a deal.

For me, this was Performa3. I am very excited.
Thanks. Sounds like you went the direct route, right to the effect the sound has on you. I was interested in Revel as a brand because I had never read a bad word about a Revel speaker, except maybe for appearance. Then when Performa3 came out I went right to the technical details. The value also seemed to be there. The last step for me was listening. Quite a different process than yours I think. (I did listen to a LOT of other speakers)


BTW, concerning the new Stereophile F208 review by Erick Lichte, the first time I ever saw or heard mention of Revel Performa was in the "associated equipment" section of a review by Erick Lichte several years ago. He's apparently still using the Performa F30.
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post #7138 of 7333 Old 06-15-2014, 11:12 PM
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It doesn't seem like the Performa3 has been ignored by the press...latest being Stereophile that I read over the weekend.

Every review has been superb for that matter. I'm not sure what more people expect. I think they will be class B Stereophile recommended component next year.

I bought mine before any reviews were out...I reviewed them .
I think the next list will be in the October issue. I'm not really sure how the decision is made between high class B and low class A. For example, with the Vandersteen Treo in class B, and Aerial 7T in class A, I do not see the reasoning from the reviews but I could be missing it. I do think I see why the B&W 804D is in class B.
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post #7139 of 7333 Old 06-16-2014, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by lsdec View Post
It doesn't seem like the Performa3 has been ignored by the press...latest being Stereophile that I read over the weekend.

Every review has been superb for that matter. I'm not sure what more people expect. I think they will be class B Stereophile recommended component next year.

I bought mine before any reviews were out...I reviewed them .
I think the next list will be in the October issue. I'm not really sure how the decision is made between high class B and low class A. For example, with the Vandersteen Treo in class B, and Aerial 7T in class A, I do not see the reasoning from the reviews but I could be missing it. I do think I see why the B&W 804D is in class B.
The reasoning is simply that the F208 costs $5000. There is no way they are going to put a $5000 speaker as class A. All those other companies will complain and pull their ads .

The $5000 price was mentioned several times on the review.

Also, just in comparing my F208 to the Focal 1028Be and 1038Be and Studio2, there is another level of fidelity in those speakers that the F208 as good as it is doesn't achieve.
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post #7140 of 7333 Old 06-16-2014, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by denydog View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post
It doesn't seem like the Performa3 has been ignored by the press...latest being Stereophile that I read over the weekend.

Every review has been superb for that matter. I'm not sure what more people expect. I think they will be class B Stereophile recommended component next year.

I bought mine before any reviews were out...I reviewed them .
I think the next list will be in the October issue. I'm not really sure how the decision is made between high class B and low class A. For example, with the Vandersteen Treo in class B, and Aerial 7T in class A, I do not see the reasoning from the reviews but I could be missing it. I do think I see why the B&W 804D is in class B.
The reasoning is simply that the F208 costs $5000. There is no way they are going to put a $5000 speaker as class A. All those other companies will complain and pull their ads .

The $5000 price was mentioned several times on the review.

Also, just in comparing my F208 to the Focal 1028Be and 1038Be and Studio2, there is another level of fidelity in those speakers that the F208 as good as it is doesn't achieve.
IIRC, NHT had not just one, but two different models in class A at that price break, the Xd fully active 2.1 system at $6K, and the Evolution T6 towers at $4K, which were actually a modular actively bi-amped system with outboard bass amps & sub crossover.


It has happened before, so maybe it will again.
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