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post #7261 of 7275 Old 08-20-2014, 07:06 PM
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So I did some tinkering. I set my F208s and C206 to 80hz and put the Ultra 120hz as close to what SVS suggested or least close. Given the size of the room and a recent convo w/ Doug from SVS, I turned the sub's volume from -7 to -3. I popped in Need For Speed to test it out. I got the response I was looking for, my wife said "holy cow turn it down". That's all I wanted to here! I went from what did I buy to you gotta check this out. I do still wanna throw a crawl in there as there is a lot of ground to cover. I also wanted to ask, being my room is so open, could that cause my center channel or even the towers to sound a bit tinney? I know the Revels are very transparent but I figure I'd ask. Also is there a way to test the health of the speakers every so often with some program? Like I'd previously mentioned, I felt like the midrange on the F208s weren't as flexy as I've seen on other speakers previously.
Ah the random questions of a newbie. Thanx to all
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post #7262 of 7275 Old 08-20-2014, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by TRIPTON80 View Post
So I did some tinkering. I set my F208s and C206 to 80hz and put the Ultra 120hz as close to what SVS suggested or least close. Given the size of the room and a recent convo w/ Doug from SVS, I turned the sub's volume from -7 to -3. I popped in Need For Speed to test it out. I got the response I was looking for, my wife said "holy cow turn it down". That's all I wanted to here! I went from what did I buy to you gotta check this out. I do still wanna throw a crawl in there as there is a lot of ground to cover. I also wanted to ask, being my room is so open, could that cause my center channel or even the towers to sound a bit tinney? I know the Revels are very transparent but I figure I'd ask. Also is there a way to test the health of the speakers every so often with some program? Like I'd previously mentioned, I felt like the midrange on the F208s weren't as flexy as I've seen on other speakers previously.
Ah the random questions of a newbie. Thanx to all
What AVR do you have? Can you run Audyssey? A lot of the times main speakers are not setup probably else the room can causes issues in the bass/mid bass. Mid bass is best produced closer to the listener which helps reduce room effects. I don't think there is anything wrong with crossing them over at 80hz if you have a good subwoofer. If it sounds good, keep it like that. If anything try moving the subwoofer into a few different spots. I've found that about 1/3 into the room work well for me.
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post #7263 of 7275 Old 08-20-2014, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by TRIPTON80 View Post
So I did some tinkering. I set my F208s and C206 to 80hz and put the Ultra 120hz as close to what SVS suggested or least close. Given the size of the room and a recent convo w/ Doug from SVS, I turned the sub's volume from -7 to -3. I popped in Need For Speed to test it out. I got the response I was looking for, my wife said "holy cow turn it down". That's all I wanted to here! I went from what did I buy to you gotta check this out. I do still wanna throw a crawl in there as there is a lot of ground to cover. I also wanted to ask, being my room is so open, could that cause my center channel or even the towers to sound a bit tinney? I know the Revels are very transparent but I figure I'd ask. Also is there a way to test the health of the speakers every so often with some program? Like I'd previously mentioned, I felt like the midrange on the F208s weren't as flexy as I've seen on other speakers previously.
Ah the random questions of a newbie. Thanx to all
Glad you were able to get the response you wanted. You can get a microphone and learn how to use the free app called Room EQ Wizard (REW). Measure the response of your system and save the graphs. You can use the saved graphs to compare to new measurements whenever you like. That should give you an indication if something has changed. Of course you'll have to take new measurements and save them every time you move your speakers or furniture around to get a new base measurement for comparison.
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post #7264 of 7275 Old Yesterday, 04:48 PM
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Room dimensions

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This the crazy room I'm working with. If the pics come thru
Please correct me if I'm wrong but the ceilings here in your photos seem to be 8' tall. I'm running a single Revel B15 in a room that has 9' ceilings and is about 24' x 30' with an opening to another 18' x 24' room and also an opening to a kitchen that's 24' x 15'.

I'm firmly convinced post-photos that if you're running the Emotiva EQ you absolutely need to turn it off. The issue with some EQ systems is how they interpret room gain. This has been an ongoing discussion at times in the Anthem discussion as the Anthem pre-pros running ARC compensate for room gain—in the sense that post ARC, the sense of additional bass you get may seem lessened. ARC has the ability to add a few DB to compensate for the almost "anechoic" or no-boundary effect you get post EQ with some systems. Another way to think about it is that if you're applying the Emotiva EQ and your sub sounds like you're playing it out in the back yard as opposed to in doors, you have a problem with the way the EQ is working. I've done several installations and configurations with various subwoofers and I can tell you from experience that while EQ can certainly help out in the sub frequencies it can also kill the great, movie-like sensation a good sub can give you.

My other question to you would be (assuming you've turned off the Emotiva EQ) is whether or not you get a better sense of bass in other parts of the room as YOU move yourself around while leaving the sub in its current position. That's a great sub and a good fit. It should be providing you with a great sense of enjoyment.

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post #7265 of 7275 Old Yesterday, 05:04 PM
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Wink Now you see how great that sub is!

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Originally Posted by TRIPTON80 View Post
So I did some tinkering. I set my F208s and C206 to 80hz and put the Ultra 120hz as close to what SVS suggested or least close. Given the size of the room and a recent convo w/ Doug from SVS, I turned the sub's volume from -7 to -3. I popped in Need For Speed to test it out. I got the response I was looking for, my wife said "holy cow turn it down". That's all I wanted to here! I went from what did I buy to you gotta check this out. I do still wanna throw a crawl in there as there is a lot of ground to cover. I also wanted to ask, being my room is so open, could that cause my center channel or even the towers to sound a bit tinney? I know the Revels are very transparent but I figure I'd ask. Also is there a way to test the health of the speakers every so often with some program? Like I'd previously mentioned, I felt like the midrange on the F208s weren't as flexy as I've seen on other speakers previously.
Ah the random questions of a newbie. Thanx to all

Big thumbs up! Anytime you have any questions on the SVS products, defer to the SVS techs. They are fantastic. Again, it's a great sub as you're now seeing.

I'm very interested to know if you have the Emotiva EQ turned on or not. It really changes the variables based on what you're writing above. If all you did was place the speakers without doing any measurements, then it's not necessarily your "open" room. Mine is like yours and I have far more space behind my seating position. Rather, I think you have the center channel's tweeter pointed far above your listening level. The tweeter should be pointing directly at your ears. That's why Revel has a stand at a slight angled tilt assuming that it will be put on the floor. If the newer Performa3s have the leveling pin that the older Performa2's had then adjust the tilt so that the speaker's tweeter points directly to your ears at the seating position.

For the mains, as a really, really general rule, try putting the speakers at the 1/3 or 1/5 points of the wall. These "rules" of course are really geared towards rectangular rooms with central placement of the speakers. You can try using some of the online speaker calculators to help you with some initial tweaking such as http://noaudiophile.com/speakercalc/ Because the physical geometry and decor of every room is different you ultimately need to learn how to "play the room". If you want to get into the real "nitty gritty" of playing the room, one of the best but tedious methods is outlined by Jim Smith in his book, Get Better Sound. He does provide a good methodology—starting with getting the bass right from your L + R speakers–to get the best sound from your speakers. Be prepared to spend some dedicated time to the methodology if you really want to get the sound better. His methodology starts with the listening position and bass first and then goes from there. If you've explored other of the more conventional methodologies available online then I do recommend the book. His methodology is really good at helping get the most from your speaker placement in unconventional setups.

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post #7266 of 7275 Old Yesterday, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by TRIPTON80 View Post
Actually when I ran EMO -Q it set the speakers too large which sounded pretty good. It Set the subwoofer to 200 hz. I dropped it back to 120hz. I was told if you set the speakers to large that it has the possibility of blowing the speakers so I dropped the crossovers.
I have a UMC-200. AS bad as others claim EMO-Q to be I find it as good as two Denons I have owned with XT32. With Audyssey you have to take what it gives. It never gave me what I like. My speakers sounded anemic. EMO-Q has PEQ for infinite adjustments.
Look at the EMO-Q settings for each speaker. My bet is that it cut frequencies in the 100 to 300 hz range which could make your L/R and center sound tinny. Manually adjust a couple of frequency bands to a +1.5 to +2 value. Also look at other bands under 500 hz and set them to 0 if they are a negative value.
My F32's had no punch until I did some manual adjustments. All is well now.
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post #7267 of 7275 Old Yesterday, 06:13 PM
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All I have to say is Wow! As much as I agree that SVS has amazing service, you guys are the best source of knowledge a newbie can get. So thank you.
I am running the EMO-Q as I thought it was going to do the work for me. From my understanding I may benefit by making manual adjustments. So you say to set the crossovers and turn the EMO-Q off. Should I be setting the eq manually then or just run straight thru?
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post #7268 of 7275 Old Yesterday, 07:18 PM
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Please don't misunderstand. I'm not saying Emotiva's EQ is either bad or good. From experience, you can't debug speaker or sub issues with the EQ enabled it's critical to hear the speakers as placed in the room. After you have nailed the sound the apply EQ. EQ is not a panacea for poor speaker placement and can mess things up a bit if trying to correct poorly placed speakers. Finally EQ is most effective and proven to be so in the lower frequencies. Even Anthems ARC--decorated as it is--defaults EQ to stop at 5000kHz. Above that all bets are off
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post #7269 of 7275 Old Yesterday, 07:28 PM
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Finally EQ is most effective and proven to be so in the lower frequencies. Even Anthems ARC--decorated as it is--defaults EQ to stop at 5000kHz. Above that all bets are off
According to research at Revel, the cutoff frequency for EQ effectiveness is 300-400hz.
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post #7270 of 7275 Old Yesterday, 07:51 PM
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According to research at Revel, the cutoff frequency for EQ effectiveness is 300-400hz.
I don't recall the specifics of the research on this, however, my loose recollection/impression is that consistent EQ effectiveness is at the cutoff frequency you mentioned. Thanks for that specific number! (There's an audio interview with Kevin Voecks from some time back that I think I came across on a blog or in the forum in which he talked about this with regards to subs and trading off the extra dBs you get by putting a sub in a corner and just applying EQ).

Now you can certainly have EQ effectiveness above that, however, there are many factors that will determine the consistency of that effectiveness. In Anthem's case, as an example, you can limit EQ to a setting as low as 200hz.

The issue with the higher frequencies, for example, Anthem's 5k default limit, is that you begin to have much more directivity in the sound and the EQ effectiveness has a correlation with the plane at which the tweeters and microphone are set at—in other words, if they are at ear level, etc. etc.

I defer the specifics to those actively involved in developing EQ solutions, but in my conversations with the back end folks, this is what has been conveyed to me.

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post #7271 of 7275 Old Today, 01:00 PM
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Here is one example comparing Audyssey MultEQ (1st Gen, Green) vs Emo-Q1 (Blue).



It looks very similar overall.

Last edited by AcuDefTechGuy; Today at 03:12 PM.
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post #7272 of 7275 Old Today, 02:46 PM
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Here is one example comparing Audyssey MultEQ (1st Gen, Green) vs Emo-Q (Blue).



It looks very similar overall.
Which version of EmoQ is that. They do look similar. Audyssey seems to cut in the frequencies that I like. All but XT32 just sucked the life out of my speakers. Too anemic.
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post #7273 of 7275 Old Today, 03:06 PM
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Which version of EmoQ is that. They do look similar. Audyssey seems to cut in the frequencies that I like. All but XT32 just sucked the life out of my speakers. Too anemic.
EMO-Q1.

Here is a graph of Emo-Q2. Red is EQ off or equivalent to Pure Direct mode.


It looks like EMO-Q2 didn't do much of anything compared to Pure Direct mode or no EQ. It's no wonder it doesn't seem anemic.

Last edited by AcuDefTechGuy; Today at 03:11 PM.
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post #7274 of 7275 Old Today, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post
EMO-Q1.

Here is a graph of Emo-Q2.


It looks like EMO-Q2 didn't do anything compared to Pure Direct mode or no EQ. It's no wonder it doesn't seem anemic - it didn't do anything at all.
I think more info than a graph would be in order. I have no graphs. However, it does do better than any Audyssey I used in my room.
Also, EmoQ has the capability to tweak and Audyssey doesn't.
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post #7275 of 7275 Old Today, 03:25 PM
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I think more info than a graph would be in order. I have no graphs. However, it does do better than any Audyssey I used in my room.
Also, EmoQ has the capability to tweak and Audyssey doesn't.
Audyssey does have the ability to "tweak". All you have to do is copy the Audyssey curve and then use manual EQ to tweak all you want.

There are also 3 automatic "tweaks".

1st is the Audyssey Reference curve, which flattens the FR from 20Hz-10kHz, and rolls off from 10kHz-20kHz. This is the curve that pretty much all the room correction software try to do, including EMO-Q, Trinnov, Dirac, ARC, Lyngdorf RoomPerfect.

2nd is Audyssey Flat curve, which flattens the FR from 20Hz-10kHz, but boosts the 10kHz-20kHz slightly so it doesn't roll off as much as the Audyssey Reference.

3rd is Audyssey Flat Dynamic EQ, which flattens the FR from 200Hz-10kHz, but slightly boosts the FR from 20Hz-200Hz and from 10kHz-20kHz.

This graph shows Audyssey Flat (green) vs Audyssey Flat Dynamic EQ (purple).

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