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post #7291 of 7471 Old 08-25-2014, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by TRIPTON80 View Post
Thank you for the insight as I would of probably never ran across the Gramma. It makes sense. Now it's just finding the right size for the PB13. Maybe i can ask if it would be better having 2 subs for lower levels of listening instead of the giant 1 sub to fill the room more? I picked up The Amazing Spiderman 2 yesterday to give the system a good run. I played with the contour switches on the back of the C206 to see if I could reduce the tinneyness of the voices and to eliminate the voices from sounding like they're in a box. I am convinced it's either my ears or the Emotiva UMC 200. By my ears, meaning being to critical. I am thinking it's also my ears wanting more warmth or bass from the voices. I had a pair of B&Ws that created that warm sound but boy did they ever sound like they were in a box. It's probably the echo in my room creating the issue. My wife and I were looking online for room correction materials. She said if you can make it look like art she would be fine with it as our system is in the living room. Any ideas on good looking panels? We have a box of Corning 703 board bare in the attic. I just don't want to get into cutting that stuff.
Give the SVS folks a call and consult with them about your goals. My gut instinct would tell me that there's likely going to be a two-fold solution: first is adding the absorption feet to your sub and secondly looking at dual sub configuration. If you can afford it, the dual subs would be a really great way to go.

I'm not the expert in this area. However, when it comes to bass, our perception of bass changes at lower volumes. That's why there are some solutions out there that "boost" the bass at lower volumes to compensate for this perception. If you know that you're not going to be able to crank it to reference levels, then my suggestion to you would be to try getting either the Auralex subdude solutions or the SVS feet. Then, I'd also try boosting your sub's volume by +1 or +2 db or (old school) raising the bass in your tone controls when listening at lower volumes.

Without being in your room and shooting in the dark I can make a fairly good assumption that you need to further isolate your sub from the floor. That's going to make a big difference, but it won't completely solve the problem. That's why I'd also consult with the folks at SVS since they'll be able to advise you best with their products. Their subs tend to have some pretty extensive options to tweak things for your particular environment.

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post #7292 of 7471 Old 08-25-2014, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Thxtheater View Post
Give the SVS folks a call and consult with them about your goals. My gut instinct would tell me that there's likely going to be a two-fold solution: first is adding the absorption feet to your sub and secondly looking at dual sub configuration. If you can afford it, the dual subs would be a really great way to go.

I'm not the expert in this area. However, when it comes to bass, our perception of bass changes at lower volumes. That's why there are some solutions out there that "boost" the bass at lower volumes to compensate for this perception. If you know that you're not going to be able to crank it to reference levels, then my suggestion to you would be to try getting either the Auralex subdude solutions or the SVS feet. Then, I'd also try boosting your sub's volume by +1 or +2 db or (old school) raising the bass in your tone controls when listening at lower volumes.

Without being in your room and shooting in the dark I can make a fairly good assumption that you need to further isolate your sub from the floor. That's going to make a big difference, but it won't completely solve the problem. That's why I'd also consult with the folks at SVS since they'll be able to advise you best with their products. Their subs tend to have some pretty extensive options to tweak things for your particular environment.
^ ^ ^ ^ ^

In addition to the previous post, I checked out the Emotiva and I don't see any options for late night listening. My Anthem, for example, has a late night mode that limits dynamics. I also don't see the options of any volume adjustment for bass at lower volumes.

You may want using plain old tone controls for now and raising the bass while the volume is lowered. You can probably come up with a pre-set setting — let's say +2 or +3 — for night listening and defeat the tone controls for daytime listening. Just a thought.

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post #7293 of 7471 Old 08-28-2014, 07:50 PM
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Glowing review of the F-208s on Secrets.
Not that anyone on this thread is surprised.

 

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post #7294 of 7471 Old 08-29-2014, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
Glowing review of the F-208s on Secrets.
Not that anyone on this thread is surprised.
I just finished my Revel system last week. F208's, C208, F206's, Mark Levinson amps, the Marantz 8801 and UD7007 and 2 Seaton Submersives. They result is truly magical.

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post #7295 of 7471 Old 08-29-2014, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
Glowing review of the F-208s on Secrets.
Not that anyone on this thread is surprised.
On a related note, the M106 just got reviewed at Stereophile. While the F208's have been getting universal praise with fantastic measurements, the M106 measurements show a terrible suckout in the vertical dispersion graph. This is very unlike Revel's philosophy of even dispersion, and it looks worse in this area than I've seen any Revel speaker measure, or even Infinity speakers. At this I'm quite surprised.
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post #7296 of 7471 Old 08-29-2014, 05:44 PM
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I read that review and AFAIR, Atkinson made reference to it but only remarked that taller stands would be necessary.
Hardly a damning appraisal.

 

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post #7297 of 7471 Old 08-29-2014, 05:46 PM
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On a related note, the M106 just got reviewed at Stereophile. While the F208's have been getting universal praise with fantastic measurements, the M106 measurements show a terrible suckout in the vertical dispersion graph. This is very unlike Revel's philosophy of even dispersion, and it looks worse in this area than I've seen any Revel speaker measure, or even Infinity speakers. At this I'm quite surprised.
Their philosophy is even dispersion in the horizontal plane. Any speaker that isn't a coax (eg, KEF or TAD) is going to have large suckouts in the vertical axis due to interference from one driver to the next.

The reason it appears so much worse on the M106 than on the measurements for the F208 is simply because of the scale on the plot: the F206, being such a large speaker, was only measured at -10, -5, 0, 5, 10, 15 degrees, while the M106 was measured from -45 degrees to nearly +45 degrees.

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post #7298 of 7471 Old 08-29-2014, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post
Their philosophy is even dispersion in the horizontal plane. Any speaker that isn't a coax (eg, KEF or TAD) is going to have large suckouts in the vertical axis due to interference from one driver to the next.

The reason it appears so much worse on the M106 than on the measurements for the F208 is simply because of the scale on the plot: the F206, being such a large speaker, was only measured at -10, -5, 0, 5, 10, 15 degrees, while the M106 was measured from -45 degrees to nearly +45 degrees.
The suckout starts at only 5 degrees above the tweeter axis.

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post #7299 of 7471 Old 08-29-2014, 10:25 PM
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^ The magnitude, frequency, and angle of the suckouts depend on three factors: The crossover frequency, the crossover slopes, and the driver-to-driver spacing (center-to-center).

The F208 has a 5.25" mid crossing to the 1" tweeter. The M106 has a 6.5" crossing to the 1" tweeter. The crossover for the two speakers occurs at a slightly different frequency, but likely of greater importance is that the center-to-center spacing of the drivers is different (I'm assuming here that this is the case). The center-to-center distance between the tweeter and midwoofer on the M106 is greater than the center-to-center distance on the F208, just because of the greater size of the driver on the M106. With the two drivers closer together on the F208, the resulting suckouts will occur at greater angles away from on-axis. So it's likely the F208 has suckouts comparable to the M106; it's just that they occur at higher angles away from the tweeter axis, and that's why they don't show up in the Stereophile measurements.

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post #7300 of 7471 Old 08-30-2014, 03:08 AM
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Their philosophy is even dispersion in the horizontal plane. Any speaker that isn't a coax (eg, KEF or TAD) is going to have large suckouts in the vertical axis due to interference from one driver to the next.

The reason it appears so much worse on the M106 than on the measurements for the F208 is simply because of the scale on the plot: the F206, being such a large speaker, was only measured at -10, -5, 0, 5, 10, 15 degrees, while the M106 was measured from -45 degrees to nearly +45 degrees.
- Their philosophy on dispersion is not limited to the horizontal plane. It's a sphere around the speaker, though they do say that +/-15 horizontal and +/-10 vertical is the most important area.

- You are right though that this graph does go to 45 degrees for some reason. I had overlooked this. It's rather unfair then for Stereophile to mention a suckout 15 degrees below axis without mentioning they don't look past 15 for most other speakers.

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post #7301 of 7471 Old 08-30-2014, 05:53 AM
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Holiday weekend project!
So in order to tone down the voices on the C206 I am building acoustic panels. I have the frames built 12 X 48. My wife wants to add her touch as we purchased fabric spray paint that won't clog the holes. I have a box of 703 that has been sitting for a long time. Now my wife has concerns. She wanted to know how safe the fiberglass is as we have 2 kids. This has now put a stop on the project until she gets some answers. I'm wondering if I should kill the project and buy pre made to make her happy. Her concerns are that yeah fiberglass sux to work with but is vibration enough to activate the fiberglass and release particles once it's on the wall? I heard muslin is a good material but is not as transparent as burlap. Also is there any recommendations on environmental products that may be a better choice? I found that Eco stuff from Audimute but am not familiar.
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post #7302 of 7471 Old 08-30-2014, 07:45 AM
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^ ^ ^

I was concerned too. I have kids like you. 6 acoustic panels later haven't give. It a thought in years. Remember most attics have fiberglass insulation, walls do, it's exposed in all home improvement stores etc.
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post #7303 of 7471 Old 08-30-2014, 09:10 AM
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Thank you for the response. Any ides on materials to use to cover them?
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post #7304 of 7471 Old 08-30-2014, 10:56 AM
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Holiday weekend project!
So in order to tone down the voices on the C206 I am building acoustic panels. I have the frames built 12 X 48. My wife wants to add her touch as we purchased fabric spray paint that won't clog the holes. I have a box of 703 that has been sitting for a long time. Now my wife has concerns. She wanted to know how safe the fiberglass is as we have 2 kids. This has now put a stop on the project until she gets some answers. I'm wondering if I should kill the project and buy pre made to make her happy. Her concerns are that yeah fiberglass sux to work with but is vibration enough to activate the fiberglass and release particles once it's on the wall? I heard muslin is a good material but is not as transparent as burlap. Also is there any recommendations on environmental products that may be a better choice? I found that Eco stuff from Audimute but am not familiar.
The fabric should be fine at keeping the fibers away from the kids. If your frames are open backed you can use fabric on both sides (that's what I did, with muslin). If you are still concerned, you can look into Roxul. ATS acoustics sells it at a good price.

http://www.atsacoustics.com/cat--Fiberglass-and-Mineral-Wool-Batts-and-Boards--106.html
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post #7305 of 7471 Old 08-30-2014, 11:35 AM
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- Their philosophy on dispersion is not limited to the horizontal plane. It's a sphere around the speaker, though they do say that +/-15 horizontal and +/-10 vertical is the most important area.

- You are right though that this graph does go to 45 degrees for some reason. I had overlooked this. It's rather unfair then for Stereophile to mention a suckout 15 degrees below axis without mentioning they don't look past 15 for most other speakers.
I've noticed that in cone and dome speakers a speaker with a 6 1/2" midrange or woofer will almost always be a big seller in a range. In general, though, a 6 1/2" woofer tends to start beaming a bit early for crossing over to a 1" tweeter in a shallow waveguide. The same thing can be seen in the KEF range, where the 6 1/2 inch uni-qs mostly exist to fit the market, have inferior off-axis performance to their smaller cousins, and from what I've seen seem to sell the best in the range.

I'm impressed that the M106 manages as small of a off-axis hotspot as it does without having had a different waveguide tooled. I still think the M105 is probably a better choice in most cases though.
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post #7306 of 7471 Old 09-01-2014, 04:27 PM
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Another great review of the F206's:

http://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/766-revel-performa3-f206-loudspeakers

Unfortunately, no measurements


- Rich
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post #7307 of 7471 Old 09-01-2014, 05:46 PM
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They have them here, and they're kind of weird to be honest. The crossover is quite clear in the off axis plots.
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post #7308 of 7471 Old 09-01-2014, 06:21 PM
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They have them here, and they're kind of weird to be honest. The crossover is quite clear in the off axis plots.

Thanks.


There measurements were not obvious from the review. The impedance charts is tough to read and I don't get the Distortion chart in DB, but it does disappear as the frequency increases (that must be good ).


The "Deviation from Linearity" chart looks like a good metric was well. It would be nice to see that on all reviews.


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post #7309 of 7471 Old 09-14-2014, 04:54 PM
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WTH, no posts since 9/1?

Stereophile published their Recommended Components issue last week.
The Studio2s are still the least inexpensive Full-Range Class A speakers.
The F208s made Class B Full-Range at 1/3 the price of the Studio2s.
Nicely done!

 

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post #7310 of 7471 Old 09-14-2014, 10:37 PM
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Thanks for the heads-up, I haven't received my copy yet.

Was curious where the F208s would end up in the list. Can't say I understand how some of the speaker classifications are determined. For example, there are a number of speakers in Class "B (Full-Range)" (Focal 836W, Sonus Faber Venere 2.5, KEF Q900, Adam Audio Classic Column III, Bowers & Wilkins 804 Diamond) that I don't think don't have the bass extension of some of the Class "A (Restricted Extreme LF)" speakers (Magico Q5, Martin Django XL, Aerial 7T) I can see the latter group in class "A", but not how they are "Restricted Extreme LF" versus the former group's "Full-Range" designation.

I'm probably misunderstanding something.
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post #7311 of 7471 Old 09-15-2014, 09:14 PM
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No Stereophile is not consistent with their ratings and I mentioned it before. If class A means extending down to 20Hz., Studio2 or B&W 800 doesn't belong.

F208 being class B full range is no complement IMHO.
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post #7312 of 7471 Old 09-15-2014, 09:18 PM
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Until Stereophile churns the Ultima2's off the list, we will not see Ultima3's, as Stereophile's RC list was one stated reason for updating the line.
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post #7313 of 7471 Old 09-15-2014, 10:23 PM
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Their list is a joke (because it's all so arbitrary), but even worse is how influential it is.

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post #7314 of 7471 Old 09-15-2014, 10:47 PM
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There seems to be a high correlation between speakers that get JA's spatially averaged in-room measurements and the class A catagory. I knew as soon as I read the F208 review it would be class B.
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post #7315 of 7471 Old 09-15-2014, 11:10 PM
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You may have something there. I assume the Joseph Audio Perspective went to class A.
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post #7316 of 7471 Old 09-16-2014, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
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Thanks.


There measurements were not obvious from the review. The impedance charts is tough to read and I don't get the Distortion chart in DB, but it does disappear as the frequency increases (that must be good ).


The "Deviation from Linearity" chart looks like a good metric was well. It would be nice to see that on all reviews.


- Rich
Thanks for posting, F206's are on my list of possible speakers down especially after demoing them. Can't go wrong!
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post #7317 of 7471 Old 09-17-2014, 07:40 PM
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A few questions to previous posters:
How many speakers realistically extend to 20hz vs how many speakers effectively play the low frequency content contained in the vast majority of recorded music?

IMO, the list is certainly not a joke and is based on thorough reviews most often by 2 or more Stereophile staff.
I'm not defending the list as an end-all be-all but it is not a joke unless you have all of the resources that Stereophile has and can keep track of even 1/10 of what they do.
I guessing that some who trash this thing think they can design and build a great car too.
Good luck with that.

Someone thinks that Revel bases their speaker development cycle on Stereophile's Recommended Components?
Really? The "Ultima3 line is already done, waiting in the wings until the Ultima2 line is vanquished and will then be unleashed?
By that line of thinking, B&W and several other major manufacturers must be doing the same thing.

The list cannot be taken in isolation, obviously.
Read the associated reviews, read reviews by other publications and of course if you can listen for yourself.


I've never based a purchase solely on this list without a lot further effort but it is an excellent reference, imo.
Almost every publication has a best of list. Are they any more relevant or irrelevant than Stereophile's list?
I think it was great that Revel consistently rates highly on this list and many others.
If you think that this list is a travesty fine, post one that is flawless.

Why is giving the F208 a Class B rating an insult?
Did you read the review?

 

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post #7318 of 7471 Old 09-17-2014, 07:58 PM
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It seems I'm a target in the above rant. Let me just say this: A product I was technical lead on was reviewed by them and is available in their online archives. To prove my comments about their "recommended components" aren't sour grapes, the product I mention was given a positive review with a couple of fair criticisms.

I have no problem with the Revel Ultimas being class A and the Revel Performas being class B. I think that's right on the mark. But then, IMO, the KEF Q900 should be class C, as should Monitor Audio's RX6, PSB Image T6, and several others that have been class B.

There's simply not enough gradation in their rankings. Class A should be for speakers like Revel Ultimas, KEF Reference, TADs, and other exotic and pricey speakers that are good. Class B could be for Revel Performas, KEF R, PSB Imagine, etc; Class C for KEF Q, Monitor Audio RX6, PSB Image T6, etc; and class D could be for good budget speakers.

What's more, the categorization of speakers based on their bass output is pretty inconsistent. denydog nailed that perfectly.

And, finally, in the last five years I've owned one of their class A speakers and two or three of their class B speakers. I've also owned speakers that, IMO, are far better than their class B speakers, yet these never even got a review in Stereophile, so they're not even listed in the recommended components.

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Quote:
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It seems I'm a target in the above rant. Let me just say this: A product I was technical lead on was reviewed by them and is available in their online archives. To prove my comments about their "recommended components" aren't sour grapes, the product I mention was given a positive review with a couple of fair criticisms.

I have no problem with the Revel Ultimas being class A and the Revel Performas being class B. I think that's right on the mark. But then, IMO, the KEF Q900 should be class C, as should Monitor Audio's RX6, PSB Image T6, and several others that have been class B.

There's simply not enough gradation in their rankings. Class A should be for speakers like Revel Ultimas, KEF Reference, TADs, and other exotic and pricey speakers that are good. Class B could be for Revel Performas, KEF R, PSB Imagine, etc; Class C for KEF Q, Monitor Audio RX6, PSB Image T6, etc; and class D could be for good budget speakers.

What's more, the categorization of speakers based on their bass output is pretty inconsistent. denydog nailed that perfectly.

And, finally, in the last five years I've owned one of their class A speakers and two or three of their class B speakers. I've also owned speakers that, IMO, are far better than their class B speakers, yet these never even got a review in Stereophile, so they're not even listed in the recommended components.
Great post, Beav.
Absolutely agree about the speakers not reviewed by Stereophile, but realistically can you expect any publication to review them all or even a majority?
You gots to look around, Mon. You know that.
I have to say that when it comes to bass in full-range speakers that is a point of contention.
Kal Rubinson has commented on that.
Kal gave an awesomely thorough, as usual, review of the Revels but it didn't persuade him to give up his B&Ws.
I really liked the review Robert Harley gave of the Revels.
The subjective part expressed exactly why I have the speakers I have.

 

It ain't ignorance causes so much trouble; it's folks knowing so much that ain't so

Milt99 is offline  
post #7320 of 7471 Old 09-18-2014, 10:46 AM
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Hey guys,

I'm getting ready to join the Revel club, and had a question for you current owners. I'm debating the F206 vs F208. I'm going through the specs, and I don't see a big list of differences. I see the bigger driver on the F208. I see the F208 is bi-wireable/bi-ampable.

Being that I will have a dedicated subwoofer for the room (Outlaw LFM-1 EX), is the F208 worth the upgrade? I can afford the extra 1500, but if it's not that big of a difference, I'd rather save the money. Have you guys listened to both in A/B testing? Is the F208 that much better?
kylbarnes is offline  
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