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post #721 of 7447 Old 03-31-2008, 08:59 AM
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The Studio2s took some time to break in. Or i am breaking in to them, not sure. I did set the tweeter to -1dB. At first, all i could hear was tweeter, even when i put my ear over the mid. Now, the midrange sounds like it's starting take over more and more of the sound, more like they are equals.

John
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post #722 of 7447 Old 03-31-2008, 09:06 AM
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John & Scott, thank you both. I will play around with the controls.

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post #723 of 7447 Old 03-31-2008, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

The Studio2s took some time to break in. Or i am breaking in to them, not sure. I did set the tweeter to -1dB. At first, all i could hear was tweeter, even when i put my ear over the mid. Now, the midrange sounds like it's starting take over more and more of the sound, more like they are equals.

Did you run the speakers in by playing them for all hours of the day up to this point? Or did you just play them occasionally to get them to this more balanced point?
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post #724 of 7447 Old 03-31-2008, 02:02 PM
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More just occasionally as I was largely demoing the theater systems. Put up some room treatment as well and that helped a bit. Might have had just a bit too much upper midrange reflection from the wide dispersion design, though they are a bit brighter that i am used too. I did have some VERY critical folks with real ears in the other day too and they really liked the sound except for on one Elton John remaster (though they *are* used to upper end Thiels, whereas I am most definitely not). So, it could be that I am just breaking in to them as well and it's me. I wouldn't call these 'ruthlessly revealing', but i would call them somewhat unforgiving. Most of my Rush CDs make me want to hurl (hey, I'm a drummer.......), but some of my other stuff is okay. I also switched to an NAD universal as the source and that helped substantially, way more than I'd though. I had been using Sonos for my own personal listening, but the analog output may just be that mediocre, so I need to get myself a high-end DAC if I'm going to use that one.

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post #725 of 7447 Old 03-31-2008, 02:09 PM
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Alimentall -

The reason I ask, even though this is the Revel thread, is that I just took ownership of the Focal 1037's and they don't sound as smooth as the one's i listened to at the dealer. There is some upper midrange / lower treble edge and some excess sibilance that I'm hoping settles down over time. I'm not one that usually puts too much confidence into break-in, but I am hoping to be proved wrong in this case.

How is sibilance on the Revels? Notice any changes in that over the time you've had them?
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post #726 of 7447 Old 03-31-2008, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Alimentall -

The reason I ask, even though this is the Revel thread, is that I just took ownership of the Focal 1037's and they don't sound as smooth as the one's i listened to at the dealer. There is some upper midrange / lower treble edge and some excess sibilance that I'm hoping settles down over time. I'm not one that usually puts too much confidence into break-in, but I am hoping to be proved wrong in this case.

How is sibilance on the Revels? Notice any changes in that over the time you've had them?

I only got a little sibilance in the first few hours - very slight, but it went away quickly. The main thing is that a lot of my rock CDs had too much lower treble, kind of a hashy, noisy sound that is normally either buried or not happening with poly drivers or even some different metal driver designs. With a lot of the little things I've done and time, much of that has gone away or is well reduced - at first, I was listening NAD's tilt control shifting the tonal balance by 2dB, but am now listening flat more often. The tweeter on the Revels is fortunately adjustable and I very much prefer the -1dB setting regardless. I'd even suggested maybe that should be the 0dB setting. I was being fatigued by them early on and sometimes they just didn't sound right on some CDs, but either they're warming up to me or the opposite. The are, without a doubt, the most truly revealing speakers I've heard in that I can more clearly hear lyrics on spanish CDs I have, even compared to Xd.

When I'd heard the 1037s, they were supposedly broken in and I felt the same as what you mentioned - there was too much going on and i could barely hear the midrange over the tweeter. To be fair, if I'd heard the Revels in the same way broken in, I might have been more pessimistic. Bass was a bit over the top almost, now it's more integrated too. I'm not totally willing to let the Revels off the hook yet and want to try some experiments with the waveguide. I'm used to my Xds which I can CRANK and they never fatigue or sound untoward. But I've noticed more ability to enjoy the Revels lately and i think I can further address the issues. The interesting thing is that both the Xds and the Revels are crossed over at 2kHz, but whereas I can hear a lot of voice in the Revel's tweeter, it's hardly there on the Xds, probably because of the 110dB/octave slope. I'm also not quite sure I like the sound of Be, to be honest. That is the commonality between the Revels and the Focals with much the same reaction in both cases. The sound similarity is quite striking between them, though I heard them in a different place. I do recall more sibilance from the Focals, where that isn't really the issue here.

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post #727 of 7447 Old 03-31-2008, 04:22 PM
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Thanks for the thoughts Ali. Like I said, I didn't not hear the "wiry" vocal quality that I'm getting out of my fresh set of Electras from these same speakers in the showroom using the same music. And the showroom was not acoustically treated. So I can only hope, despite my feelings to the contrary, that break-in is a real phenomenon and that this quality goes away with time. I've tried different source players (Classe and Linn) and those didn't make a lick of difference.

The strange thing is, that when I measure the FR of the 1037's using the Audyssey Pro PC software that I have, even with Audyssey filtering disengaged, there is no peak in the treble. There is a slight dish out from 1KHz to 3KHz, but above that the treble does not exceed the 1KHz reference level and the treble rolls off gradually above 10KHz. Engaging Audyssey does nothing to tame the edgy quality either. Based on this, I can only assume that what I am hearing is not and FR related issue, or that many CD recordings are also excessively bright. Distortion perhaps?

BTW - have your Rush CD's sounded OK on other high-end speakers?
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post #728 of 7447 Old 03-31-2008, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

The strange thing is, that when I measure the FR of the 1037's using the Audyssey Pro PC software that I have, even with Audyssey filtering disengaged, there is no peak in the treble. There is a slight dish out from 1KHz to 3KHz, but above that the treble does not exceed the 1KHz reference level and the treble rolls off gradually above 10KHz. Engaging Audyssey does nothing to tame the edgy quality either. Based on this, I can only assume that what I am hearing is not and FR related issue, or that many CD recordings are also excessively bright. Distortion perhaps?

Unless you have the NAD piece, Audyssey will only make things worse. The NAD does have a smoother, more natural curve. I wouldn't use Audyssey with your speakers. MIT speaker cables have been a big hit with people who have similar issues - it acts as a passive EQ. When I heard the 1037s, it was like the treble was doing way too much. Have you tried pointing the speakers directly at you vs straight ahead? Also early reflections can be a big offender. However, I am tentatively blame the 2kHz crossover. IME, it's just too low unless you have an unbelievably steep crossover. Even if the tweeter seems to be able to handle the power, I think it's just the wrong crossover point. Every speaker except for Xd that uses a crossover point that low bothers my ears so far. The problem is that I also hear problems with waveguides and inverted tweeters (and, as it happens, Be) so I'm not totally sure what the culprit is.
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BTW - have your Rush CD's sounded OK on other high-end speakers?

Nope. The better the speaker, the more awful they sound

John
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post #729 of 7447 Old 03-31-2008, 06:12 PM
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It turned out the problem with my new Revels is with the Audyssey EQ. I couldn't run it again with the F32s hooked up...I keep getting speaker detect error...getting a new mic from Onkyo. I turned the Audyssey off and now it sounds much better. The leanness and harshness is now gone but bass response is now way overpowering. I am thinking of putting a couple of Tri Traps from Gik Acoustics and keep Audyssey off. Anybody has any experience with Gik Tri-Trap. Any other alternative I should consider beside Gik? Thanks.

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post #730 of 7447 Old 03-31-2008, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex solomon View Post

It turned out the problem with my new Revels is with the Audyssey EQ. I couldn't run it again with the F32s hooked up...I keep getting speaker detect error...getting a new mic from Onkyo. I turned the Audyssey off and now it sounds much better. The leanness and harshness is now gone but bass response is now way overpowering. I am thinking of putting a couple of Tri Traps from Gik Acoustics and keep Audyssey off. Anybody has any experience with Gik Tri-Trap. Any other alternative I should consider beside Gik? Thanks.

Alex, I have the GIK Tri-Traps. You can try them out and return if they don't work out for you. Call GIK and tell them what your issues are and I'm sure they will have some ideas. Good people and very helpful.

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post #731 of 7447 Old 03-31-2008, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex solomon View Post

It turned out the problem with my new Revels is with the Audyssey EQ. I couldn't run it again with the F32s hooked up...I keep getting speaker detect error...getting a new mic from Onkyo. I turned the Audyssey off and now it sounds much better. The leanness and harshness is now gone but bass response is now way overpowering.

That'll do it! Audyssey's stock curves, used by the Japanese, are based on faulty psychoacoustics. Well, the lack of it, actually. I try to tell as many people as i can to go NAD instead of Denon/Onkyo/Marantz as they fixed these issues in advance, but without sounding like a biased, broken record (which is difficult). I've also appealed to Audyssey to offer the kind of flexible tools needed to *guarantee* a good result in the pro software, but with no luck so far. Lean and harsh are exactly the problems with anything but the NAD designed curve which allows a smoothed room gain and doesn't put the tweeter on top of you. Stock Audyssey sounds like you're 3' from the speaker, but outside with no room gain.

You know what sucks about this industry? I'm about the only dealer that notices this stuff apparently, or so I'm told. Everyone else just sells whatever they have without actually caring. Not patting myself on the back here, it's more like bemoaning the state of the industry. I'm kinda tired of hearing the "but no one else complained" or "you're unique" BS. The first thing I do after I get any piece of gear is test the hell out of it, break it if possible, then call the company with feedback, not to mention that of my customers. And then I get the reputation as the 'PITA dealer' because 'you're the only one.......' Grrrrrrr!

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post #732 of 7447 Old 03-31-2008, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

That'll do it! Audyssey's stock curves, used by the Japanese, are based on faulty psychoacoustics. Well, the lack of it, actually. I try to tell as many people as i can to go NAD instead of Denon/Onkyo/Marantz as they fixed these issues in advance, .....

So do you know what the NAD Audyssey curve looks like? The seem to want to keep it a secret. You say that it sounds more pleasant, so I would think that the curve might include a dished out presence region with slightly elevated bass?
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post #733 of 7447 Old 03-31-2008, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

So do you know what the NAD Audyssey curve looks like? The seem to want to keep it a secret. You say that it sounds more pleasant, so I would think that the curve might include a dished out presence region with slightly elevated bass?

Not sure, but it sounds as though they simply smoothed the bass response rather than eliminate the bass peaks, so maybe a 2-3dB lift remains and then a little more rolled off above 1 or 2 khz than in the Audyssey curves. Besides, why would NAD give out one of their best advantages over the Japanese gear! I have a good 1/2 dozen ideas that would make Audyssey notably better and more consistent, so I'm hoping NAD will adopt some of these if Audyssey will not.

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post #734 of 7447 Old 03-31-2008, 07:46 PM
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What do you guys think is a good way to go for a prepro that also offers analog bypass? I'm thinking of getting rid of my Meridian 861 prepro and Ayre K-1xe preamp for something that will cover both bases at the same time... I've primarily been considering the Lexicon MC-12HD since it also has optional EQ.

The 861 doesn't have analog bypass and instead digitizes anything not digital that you input into it, or I would get rid of the K-1xe and just use it for everything. Also, the soft filters are a little too soft EQ-wise for me.

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post #735 of 7447 Old 03-31-2008, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Not sure, but it sounds as though they simply smoothed the bass response rather than eliminate the bass peaks, so maybe a 2-3dB lift remains and then a little more rolled off above 1 or 2 khz than in the Audyssey curves. Besides, why would NAD give out one of their best advantages over the Japanese gear! I have a good 1/2 dozen ideas that would make Audyssey notably better and more consistent, so I'm hoping NAD will adopt some of these if Audyssey will not.

What you described is easy enough to do with the Audyssey Pro. You would just turn up the sub output by 2-3dB and select one of the more agressive curves for the treble roll off. Audyssey Pro offers three HF curves.

But what are your ideas, out of curiosity?
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post #736 of 7447 Old 03-31-2008, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

What do you guys think is a good way to go for a prepro that also offers analog bypass? I'm thinking of getting rid of my Meridian 861 prepro and Ayre K-1xe preamp for something that will cover both bases at the same time... I've primarily been considering the Lexicon MC-12HD since it also has optional EQ.

The 861 doesn't have analog bypass and instead digitizes anything not digital that you input into it, or I would get rid of the K-1xe and just use it for everything. Also, the soft filters are a little too soft EQ-wise for me.

The MC-12HD would be one option (I own that piece), though, like anything, you are going to get a variety of opinions on the sound quality. Other options would be Halcro, or Anthem.

I have to say that I found the EQ in the MC-12HD did very little to correct the bass response in my room. Even though I have a large peak at 30Hz in the listening posistion, the MC-12HD left it untouched. I've been told that is because the EQ in the MC-12HD only works on resonances and technically, that 30Hz peak was not a resonance. Sure seemed like one to me, but what do I know?

I also own the Audyssey Pro EQ stand alone unit, and while I haven't tried this yet, I think you can configure it so that every channel acts like a subwoofer channel. By doing this you could use the Audyssey to EQ just 200Hz on down for each channel, rather than the full frequency range.

Just some options to think about.
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post #737 of 7447 Old 03-31-2008, 11:00 PM
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None of the Audyssey Pro curves sounded right to me and all sounded worse in most ways than no correction.

off the top of my head -

1. matched pair correction averaging
2. percentage of correction target
3. mid/high frequency defeat
4. mains frequency matching
5. matched pair setup averaging
6. manual gate control for speaker/room correction delineation
7. preliminary speaker setup before measurement w/1kHz tone burst
8. manual pause/skip/repeat for speaker measurements
9. more detailed measurement graphing via computer
10. manual correction smoothing

There are probably more that have come to me, but any 3 or 4 of these would help the system dramatically. As it stands, it's kind of riddled with error, hence the need for 8-16 measurements to average these out.

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post #738 of 7447 Old 03-31-2008, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

None of the Audyssey Pro curves sounded right to me and all sounded worse in most ways than no correction.

off the top of my head -

1. matched pair correction averaging
2. percentage of correction target
3. mid/high frequency defeat
4. mains frequency matching
5. matched pair setup averaging
6. manual gate control for speaker/room correction delineation
7. preliminary speaker setup before measurement w/1kHz tone burst
8. manual pause/skip/repeat for speaker measurements
9. more detailed measurement graphing via computer
10. manual correction smoothing

There are probably more that have come to me, but any 3 or 4 of these would help the system dramatically. As it stands, it's kind of riddled with error, hence the need for 8-16 measurements to average these out.

I too would love an auto EQ with that sort of flexibility. But as I'm sure you know, the boys at Audyssey have no interest in anything but correcting the room response to match the curve used during film score mastering.

You lost me on points 1, 5, & 6. What is the purpose of those?

I would add:

11. Customizable target curve
12. Several preset curves
13. Multiple save files
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post #739 of 7447 Old 04-01-2008, 12:27 AM
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1. matched pair correction averaging

allows you to average the correction curves of any matched speaker pair - L/R front, sides or rears - if they are in essentially identical acoustic circumstances.

5. matched pair setup averaging

Same thing for distance/volume, Audyssey often makes mistakes here.

6. manual gate control for speaker/room correction delineation

Setting the system to measure for speaker/room separately with free standing speakers or as a single source when the speakers are on-wall or in-wall.

John
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post #740 of 7447 Old 04-01-2008, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

1. matched pair correction averaging

allows you to average the correction curves of any matched speaker pair - L/R front, sides or rears - if they are in essentially identical acoustic circumstances.

5. matched pair setup averaging

Same thing for distance/volume, Audyssey often makes mistakes here.

6. manual gate control for speaker/room correction delineation

Setting the system to measure for speaker/room separately with free standing speakers or as a single source when the speakers are on-wall or in-wall.

That makes sense. Thanks much. So what would #6 allow you to do? Apply more or less correction to the direct vs reflected sound? Would you have to take nearfield measurements for that?
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post #741 of 7447 Old 04-01-2008, 06:21 AM
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Alimentall,

Thank you all your responses. I watched a movie last night and voices from C32 have a lot ssss and sound congested. What would cause that?

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post #742 of 7447 Old 04-01-2008, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

What do you guys think is a good way to go for a prepro that also offers analog bypass? I'm thinking of getting rid of my Meridian 861 prepro and Ayre K-1xe preamp for something that will cover both bases at the same time... I've primarily been considering the Lexicon MC-12HD since it also has optional EQ.

The 861 doesn't have analog bypass and instead digitizes anything not digital that you input into it, or I would get rid of the K-1xe and just use it for everything. Also, the soft filters are a little too soft EQ-wise for me.

Hifisponge already mentioned it....the Anthem D2, which now offers optional room correction. I assume it has an analog bypass, but haven't looked into it.

Maybe you could look into the TacT Audio TCS? Don't know if that one has a bypass either, though.

Good luck.
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post #743 of 7447 Old 04-01-2008, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Alex, I have the GIK Tri-Traps. You can try them out and return if they don't work out for you. Call GIK and tell them what your issues are and I'm sure they will have some ideas. Good people and very helpful.

Thanks. I email them along with some pictures of my setup more than a week ago but I haven't heard from them yet. I will try to call them.

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post #744 of 7447 Old 04-01-2008, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Alex, I have the GIK Tri-Traps. You can try them out and return if they don't work out for you. Call GIK and tell them what your issues are and I'm sure they will have some ideas. Good people and very helpful.

Yeah, I can second that. I use GIK tri-traps and 244 panels. Even though I don't have a ton of treatments (and I know I should), they really make a very significant difference, particularly with regards to ringing. Although I don't have any first hand experience with their products, I'd have to plug RealTraps too, just because Ethan is an incredibly helpful/knowledgeable guy around here.

How far out from the back wall do you have the F32's? They can get very "bassy" if they're too close to an untreated wall. Now you might be looking at adjusting the contour switches to cut a little bass...funny the difference a day makes.


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post #745 of 7447 Old 04-01-2008, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Alex solomon View Post

Alimentall,

Thank you all your responses. I watched a movie last night and voices from C32 have a lot ssss and sound congested. What would cause that?

Not sure. Could be the speaker, could also be a source or DVD disc. For instance, standalone Tivos have horrible sound with lots of sibilance. Also could be where your speaker is and what kind of TV you have. Tube TVs often add a sibilant sound because of the glass. Also, glass coffee tables or tile floors.

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post #746 of 7447 Old 04-01-2008, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

That makes sense. Thanks much. So what would #6 allow you to do? Apply more or less correction to the direct vs reflected sound? Would you have to take nearfield measurements for that?

Basically, yes. But i'm not sure how Audyssey deals with this so it could be redundant, but if the processor knows up front that the speakers are on wall (basically, speaker and wall acting as one), it might be programmed to make a better sounding correction curve.

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post #747 of 7447 Old 04-01-2008, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Not sure. Could be the speaker, could also be a source or DVD disc. For instance, standalone Tivos have horrible sound with lots of sibilance. Also could be where your speaker is and what kind of TV you have. Tube TVs often add a sibilant sound because of the glass. Also, glass coffee tables or tile floors.

The C32 are sitting on top of a glass shelf. Maybe a Mopad from Auralex help? I watched part of the same movie with the Mirage OM-C2 and there was no sibilance.

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post #748 of 7447 Old 04-01-2008, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ssteel01 View Post

Yeah, I can second that. I use GIK tri-traps and 244 panels. Even though I don't have a ton of treatments (and I know I should), they really make a very significant difference, particularly with regards to ringing. Although I don't have any first hand experience with their products, I'd have to plug RealTraps too, just because Ethan is an incredibly helpful/knowledgeable guy around here.

How far out from the back wall do you have the F32's? They can get very "bassy" if they're too close to an untreated wall. Now you might be looking at adjusting the contour switches to cut a little bass...funny the difference a day makes.


Scott

The F32 are placed 27" form the back wall but only 8" from the side wall. The have the LF compensation switch on boundary.

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post #749 of 7447 Old 04-01-2008, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Alex solomon View Post

The F32 are placed 27" form the back wall but only 8" from the side wall. The have the LF compensation switch on boundary.

Could be, but if you have the rubber feet on it, it will do much of the same thing as far as damping, just make sure the speaker is all the way forward on the shelf. Maybe switch the LF back too. You can also experiment with the angle of the speaker and also try throwing a rug in front if you're not on carpet.

What else do you have going on in the system/room?

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post #750 of 7447 Old 04-01-2008, 09:47 AM
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What do you guys think is a good way to go for a prepro that also offers analog bypass? I'm thinking of getting rid of my Meridian 861 prepro and Ayre K-1xe preamp for something that will cover both bases at the same time... I've primarily been considering the Lexicon MC-12HD since it also has optional EQ.

The 861 doesn't have analog bypass and instead digitizes anything not digital that you input into it, or I would get rid of the K-1xe and just use it for everything. Also, the soft filters are a little too soft EQ-wise for me.

Don't all Lexicons digitize as well? I was kind of eyeing those to see if there might be interest, but they're still on HDMI 1.1, aren't they? About the only thing of which I can think, other than the NAD T175, is the Anthem unit perhaps. I don't think it's a good time to find a high-end replacement for an 861. I don't think it really exists.

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