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Old 02-08-2016, 09:32 AM
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At a reasonable level, reflections are good for imaging and spaciousness.
ultima2's dispersion and consistent frequency off access maintains the performance of the speaker.

My room is not symmetrical, has high ceilings, books cases and other dispersing characteristics.
Even so, without the two area rugs it is too hot/reflective.

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Old 02-08-2016, 05:56 PM
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It's true that Revel / Harman speakers tend to have very even dispersion, so treating the first reflection point is not quite as important as it is with most other speakers. Kevin Voecks recommends treating the first reflection point, Dr. Toole not so much (this came up at Harman Academy). As mentioned, leaving it untreated can give you more of a sense of spaciousness, under certain conditions (this was Dr. Toole's preference). It's NOT black and white, though, so please don't take this as a recommendation.

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Old 02-08-2016, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
It's true that Revel / Harman speakers tend to have very even dispersion, so treating the first reflection point is not quite as important as it is with most other speakers. Kevin Voecks recommends treating the first reflection point, Dr. Toole not so much (this came up at Harman Academy). As mentioned, leaving it untreated can give you more of a sense of spaciousness, under certain conditions (this was Dr. Toole's preference). It's NOT black and white, though, so please don't take this as a recommendation.
One factor to consider is application. Stereo systems might benefit from the spaciousness but multichannel systems might not.

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Old 02-09-2016, 12:37 AM
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It's true that Revel / Harman speakers tend to have very even dispersion, so treating the first reflection point is not quite as important as it is with most other speakers. .

In this case, why build speakers who minimize the difraction ?
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Old 02-09-2016, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
It's true that Revel / Harman speakers tend to have very even dispersion, so treating the first reflection point is not quite as important as it is with most other speakers. Kevin Voecks recommends treating the first reflection point, Dr. Toole not so much (this came up at Harman Academy). As mentioned, leaving it untreated can give you more of a sense of spaciousness, under certain conditions (this was Dr. Toole's preference). It's NOT black and white, though, so please don't take this as a recommendation.
I suppose since one of my Salon 2s is 1 feet from sidewall (wood paneling), as opposed to other which is 16 feet away, treatment would be very beneficial. Will see in couple of days when I make measurements with and without some treatments.
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Old 02-09-2016, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by dinococus View Post
In this case, why build speakers who minimize the difraction ?
I'm not a speaker engineer, so bear with what might be an incomplete or somewhat inaccurate response

Diffraction, as I understand it, is the effect of sound waves moving "around" an object. Minimizing diffraction in the speaker design is what allows broad and even dispersion (the goal). The speaker cabinet itself is not interfering with the propagation of sound waves. As you move further and further away from the front of the speaker, evenness of response (and power output) falls. The goal of a Revel design is to make sure that the falloff is both minimal and consistent with the on-axis response in terms of frequency response.

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Old 02-09-2016, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
I suppose since one of my Salon 2s is 1 feet from sidewall (wood paneling), as opposed to other which is 16 feet away, treatment would be very beneficial. Will see in couple of days when I make measurements with and without some treatments.

That sound like a good candidate for treating the close to the wall.


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Old 02-09-2016, 12:45 PM
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I suppose since one of my Salon 2s is 1 feet from sidewall (wood paneling), as opposed to other which is 16 feet away, treatment would be very beneficial. Will see in couple of days when I make measurements with and without some treatments.
The main issue you are going to have is evenness of bass response. The Salon2 near the sidewall is going to have considerably reinforced lower mids and bass compared to the speaker away from the wall.

But yes, the speaker near the sidewall is going to have far more in the way of "first reflection point" issues compared to the speaker out so far into the room. Make sure you use broadband, thick sound absorbers (4" thick or greater). Absorbing only high frequencies with thin absorption panels essentially just "turns down the treble" on the speaker. Since you are already getting a mid and bass boost from the sidewall speaker, that would only exacerbate the problem of the mis-match in bass / mid frequency boost. To compensate for that, I would make sure that the "Low Frequency Compensation" switch on the back of your Salon2s is set to "Boundary" for the speaker near the wall and "Normal" for the speaker away from the wall. That should go a long way toward making sure the speakers match in frequency response (if you haven't done this already).

Hope that helps!

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Old 02-09-2016, 12:54 PM
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I've been getting numerous inquiries about the Revel Ultima Rhythm2 sub after my post about it being discontinued last month. Yes, they are on closeout but there are still half a dozen or so left in mahogany at the Revel warehouse. Last I checked there was one B-stock unit in black available as well. The Rhythm2 is / was in the same Ultima line as the Salon2s. Stereophile wrote about the combo a couple of years ago:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/r...8rfUTr7ALrs.97

The mahogany units are all new in a box, but once they are gone, they are gone. Feel free to PM me with any questions.

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Old 02-09-2016, 05:56 PM
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The main issue you are going to have is evenness of bass response. The Salon2 near the sidewall is going to have considerably reinforced lower mids and bass compared to the speaker away from the wall.

But yes, the speaker near the sidewall is going to have far more in the way of "first reflection point" issues compared to the speaker out so far into the room. Make sure you use broadband, thick sound absorbers (4" thick or greater). Absorbing only high frequencies with thin absorption panels essentially just "turns down the treble" on the speaker. Since you are already getting a mid and bass boost from the sidewall speaker, that would only exacerbate the problem of the mis-match in bass / mid frequency boost. To compensate for that, I would make sure that the "Low Frequency Compensation" switch on the back of your Salon2s is set to "Boundary" for the speaker near the wall and "Normal" for the speaker away from the wall. That should go a long way toward making sure the speakers match in frequency response (if you haven't done this already).

Hope that helps!
Yes, I am quite aware of bass issues and I have set LF Compensation on speaker thats closer to sidewall to boundary. My biggest concern is a mess between 70 and 600 Hz and thats what I wanna try to fix with treatments. Also, after 600 up to 10khz from what i recall from measurements I have a consistent downward slope with 10 db difference between those two points, so i also fear that adding absorbers will further kill the highs but I will know for sure next week when I get materials for room treatments and do some testing.
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Old 02-10-2016, 02:35 PM
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This question is mainly to satisfy my curiosity and vent my frustration...

I recently had two B12 subs quit working. They are housed behind an acoustical transparent screen on a stage so they're hard to access. It happened last December assuming they quit at the same time. I tested them in November and at least one of them worked. I bought both 10/2008.

Pyramid fixed the amps for $750.00. They said they did not know why they quit working but it wasn't because of a power surge. I thought that might have been the problem even though I have them on a surge protector. They've never been played very hard.

I'm disappointed. Over the seven years that they worked I went through through two projector bulbs. So I'd estimate they've been played around 5,000 hours. Am I holding Revel to too high a standard if I believe the amps should have lasted longer?
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Old 02-10-2016, 04:42 PM
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SS amps should have a service life exceeding 10 years at least IMO. However the fact that they quit working at the same time sends a bit of a red flag. Such coincidences rarely are coincidence, if that makes any sense.
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Old 02-14-2016, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Thought I'd pop in to the official Revel thread and share my experience with Revel at CES. Much of these goodies came from Revel's lead engineer himself, Kevin Voecks

Small point, Kevin Voecks is not an engineer. He is a product or technology manager.

From time to time we have had actual Harman engineers like Mark Glazer who were responsible for the design of Revel speakers contribute to this thread.

http://www.almainternational.org/yah....284165433.pdf

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Old 02-15-2016, 10:48 AM
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Small point, Kevin Voecks is not an engineer. He is a product or technology manager.

From time to time we have had actual Harman engineers like Mark Glazer who were responsible for the design of Revel speakers contribute to this thread.

http://www.almainternational.org/yah....284165433.pdf
Fair enough. I was using the term "engineer" in the generic sense, but you are of course right. Mark is a really great guy and fun to talk to - Brad and I were lucky enough to be seated with during lunch at Harman Academy

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Old 02-18-2016, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RastusW View Post
This question is mainly to satisfy my curiosity and vent my frustration...

I recently had two B12 subs quit working. They are housed behind an acoustical transparent screen on a stage so they're hard to access. It happened last December assuming they quit at the same time. I tested them in November and at least one of them worked. I bought both 10/2008.

Pyramid fixed the amps for $750.00. They said they did not know why they quit working but it wasn't because of a power surge. I thought that might have been the problem even though I have them on a surge protector. They've never been played very hard.

I'm disappointed. Over the seven years that they worked I went through through two projector bulbs. So I'd estimate they've been played around 5,000 hours. Am I holding Revel to too high a standard if I believe the amps should have lasted longer?
If it makes you feel any better I have a Velodyne SPL12 (have had it since about 2002) and the amp dies about every 7 yrs like clockwork.. Still cheaper to get it fixed than replace the sub, but I strongly considered it the last time..
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Old 02-18-2016, 01:47 PM
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Weird - is 7 years a trend? I have several Paradigm subs that are all dying right about now, and they were purchased back in 2007 / 2008.

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Old 02-18-2016, 01:51 PM
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I have a Def Tech sub I bought in 1992 (Powerfield 1500?) that has been pretty much left on and it still works great. Checked the surrounds recently and looked good.
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Old 02-18-2016, 02:05 PM
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For the Revel crowd's reading pleasure, here is the white paper on the Concerta2s, the new entry level Revel tower, center, bookshelf, surround, and subwoofer. The Concerta2s were engineered around getting as close as possible to Performa sound without breaking the $2K a pair tower price point. Brad and I got to hear them at Harman Academy in August, where they were double blind tested against competing models from KEF, Monitor Audio, and Polk (in the test session we sat in on) as well as B&W, Golden Ear, and others (in other sessions). In the great Revel tradition, they were not released until they could reliably beat the competition at up to twice the price during the double blind tests

Attached is the white paper that outlines the performance and design goals. For reference, here are the price points:

Concerta2 F36 Tower: $1000 each
Concerta2 F35 Tower: $800 each
Concerta2 M16 bookshelf speaker: $450 each
Concerta2 S16 surround speaker: $450 each
Concerta2 B10 sub: $1500
Concerta2 C25 Center Speaker: $750

Full specs and pics: http://www.revelspeakers.com/product...concerta2.html

These speakers are shipping now. Brad and I were lucky enough to get a full batch of all of the models for demo about a month ago, and have been playing with them since. We had already heard them at Harman Academy and were very impressed, we are even happier to have them in our homes

These are the same speakers that were used in the $20K Synthesis theater at CEDIA 2015, so have been fully JBL Synthesis certified and part of Harman's ARCOS calibration system.
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Old 02-19-2016, 04:29 PM
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Hey guys. Pulled the trigger on M106 for my surrounds. They should arrive in couple of weeks. I wanted to ask if anyone can tell me if there are holes for screws at the bottom of speaker and what are the distances between them? I will need a custom mounts for them so matching Revel stands wont do for me.
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Old 02-19-2016, 10:16 PM
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Fair enough. I was using the term "engineer" in the generic sense, but you are of course right. Mark is a really great guy and fun to talk to - Brad and I were lucky enough to be seated with during lunch at Harman Academy
What is the generic sense of the term engineer?
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Old 02-19-2016, 11:00 PM
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Hi everyone.
I was wondering whats Revel (Ultima 2) owners take and experience with acoustic treatments of first reflections? I assume they were built with first reflections in mind (courtesy of Harman Group) so I assume I should minimize treatment unless I find it really beneficial?
I have a media room that is about 16 feet wide and 25 feet long. The room is dedicated to mainly audio. The main stereo speakers (Salon2's) are located about 4 feet from the back16 foot wall, and each is about 3 feet from the side wall. I use 4 inch thick fiberglass absorbers. Each absorber is 2 feet by 4 feet, and sits on the floor. I move them from time-to-time to experiment with the various locations.

The wall behind the speakers has a row of vertical absorbers, that is, lots of absorption. The side walls have no absorbers at the first reflection points. As example of other speakers: I've had the original Salons in the room and I used absorbers with those although they weren't bad without them. I've also used Linkwitz Orions in the room, and didn't use side wall absorbers.

I feel that one of the many good qualities of the Salon2's is that their off axis response is even and slowly falls off with increasing angle off axis. This means that sidewall reflections, given the wall is fairly smooth, have an even frequency response. This even off axis response in the Salon2's is implemented by their four-way design, drivers with basic response that extends past the crossovers so that the crossover defines their response, LR 24dB crossovers, and the tweeter wave guide. Each driver has similar off axis response to its "neighbor" at each crossover. The beryllium tweeter is heaven but that is another subject.

Most loudspeakers have off axis peaks somewhere above the mid-range/tweeter crossover, where the tweeter's dispersion is wider than the mid-range's. When reflected, this excess in response causes a peak in the response in the 2kHz to 5kHz region where the ear is very sensitive. It makes the speaker sound harsh, it makes violins sound painful, etc. It is likely the reason why many people spend years fooling around with magic cable, tubes, swapping amps and loudspeakers, etc. It is also the reason why so many people think there are so many bad recordings. The recordings are OK, their loudspeakers are the problem. To me, one look at the horizontal off axis measurements for a loudspeaker in Stereophile is enough to tell if the speaker is worth even one listen. It is a defining characteristic of a loudspeaker. Off axis response with peaks between 2kHz and 8kHz is unacceptable.

The sound can be absorbed at first reflection points, but then their is less "energy" to the music. First reflection absorption acceptable, and certainly better than harsh sound.
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Old 02-20-2016, 09:35 AM
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What is the generic sense of the term engineer?
From Merriam Webster:

a person who is trained in or follows as a profession a branch of engineering
a person who carries through an enterprise by skillful or artful contrivance
a person who runs or supervises an engine or an apparatus


Generic enough for me

I see Kevin in those terms. My distinct impression at Harman Academy was that the Revels were his "baby," but it seems I overstated when I said Kevin was lead engineer on Revel when it is of course actually Mark Glazer.

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Old 02-20-2016, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Hey guys. Pulled the trigger on M106 for my surrounds. They should arrive in couple of weeks. I wanted to ask if anyone can tell me if there are holes for screws at the bottom of speaker and what are the distances between them? I will need a custom mounts for them so matching Revel stands wont do for me.
Sorry - don't have a set of M106s here to check. I imagine you've already checked the stand instructions, which show the relative positions of the mount holes (but don't have dimensions). In case you haven't, here it is:

http://www.revelspeakers.com/tl_file...20REV10_08.pdf

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Old 02-20-2016, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Hey guys. Pulled the trigger on M106 for my surrounds. They should arrive in couple of weeks. I wanted to ask if anyone can tell me if there are holes for screws at the bottom of speaker and what are the distances between them? I will need a custom mounts for them so matching Revel stands wont do for me.
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Sorry - don't have a set of M106s here to check. I imagine you've already checked the stand instructions, which show the relative positions of the mount holes (but don't have dimensions). In case you haven't, here it is:

http://www.revelspeakers.com/tl_file...20REV10_08.pdf
I used the existing mount holes to wall mount the M120's.
A mahogany board was counter-synced to mount to the Omni-mount.

I also did something similar to mount the Voice2 but had to drill new wholes in the base to make it work.
There is no damage to the cabinets, which is key.

- Rich
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Old 02-20-2016, 10:38 AM
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Sorry - don't have a set of M106s here to check. I imagine you've already checked the stand instructions, which show the relative positions of the mount holes (but don't have dimensions). In case you haven't, here it is:

http://www.revelspeakers.com/tl_file...20REV10_08.pdf
Well that was quite a logical thing i forgot to do. It seems holes on my current stand definitely wont fit since there is 4 of them and M106 has only 3.
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Old 02-21-2016, 10:44 AM
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Came across this video on the Revel site that covers the double blind speaker shuffler and overall brand philosophies. Thought it might be interesting for those who want to see how the speaker shuffler works and get a peek into what goes on behind the scenes at Harman - it's kind of like Harman Academy reduced down to 2 minutes and 49 seconds

Interesting - this appears to be footage of the same speaker setup we heard compared during our trip. I recognize most of the speakers being tested against the new M16 bookshelf (Monitor Audio and KEF for sure).


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Old 02-21-2016, 10:46 AM
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More video - this time on the new Concerta2s I wrote about a few days ago:


John Schuermann
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Old 02-21-2016, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Came across this video on the Revel site that covers the double blind speaker shuffler and overall brand philosophies. Thought it might be interesting for those who want to see how the speaker shuffler works and get a peek into what goes on behind the scenes at Harman - it's kind of like Harman Academy reduced down to 2 minutes and 49 seconds

Interesting - this appears to be footage of the same speaker setup we heard compared during our trip. I recognize most of the speakers being tested against the new M16 bookshelf (Monitor Audio and KEF for sure).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edtsqUpoHu8
Thank you for posting this video links. Very impressing technology from HK group.
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Old 02-24-2016, 12:08 PM
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I just picked up a pair of the concerta2 M16's and a c25. They are really fantastic!! I was looking into the revel speaker stand to match and they're asking $500 a pair!!!! I was pretty blown away by that. Might as well get the towers.
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Old 02-24-2016, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cembros View Post
I just picked up a pair of the concerta2 M16's and a c25. They are really fantastic!! I was looking into the revel speaker stand to match and they're asking $500 a pair!!!! I was pretty blown away by that. Might as well get the towers.



Checked with Revel Sales and the stands for the Concerta2 M16 are $250 a pair.
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