Revel Owners Thread - Page 286 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8551 of 8707 Old 07-09-2016, 05:08 AM
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Hi Kishore. Long time. Did you ever get settled in your new place?

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post #8552 of 8707 Old 07-09-2016, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
John has helped me as well.
He has helped me as well, and he did that with no hope in sales (as I am not living in the US).
Thumbs up for the gentleman John.
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post #8553 of 8707 Old 07-09-2016, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
As I remember Harmon (Toole and Co.) found that listeners in their controlled tests preferred speakers that had an even off horizontal axis response that slowly declined with frequency, with the Salon2 being the poster child for this response. The M2 and LSR708i graphs in your post show a quite flat response in the listening window from say 2 kHz to 10 kHz or so which may be taken as their off axis response. This likely causes these two speakers to sound brighter or more detailed or whatever, due to greater high frequency energy, but that brightness may not be preferred by the user over time.

The F36 isn't really great in its off axis response, it's not all that even, but its response overall does decline gradually off axis with increasing frequency. Revel said the F36 is the best they can do for the money, not the best they can do.

Most loudspeaker measurements in Stereophile of off axis horizontal response show an elevated response, or a lump in a declining response, somewhere between 1 kHz and 5 kHz relative to surrounding frequencies, which is not a good thing. The ear is very sensitive in this region. Elevated response in this region makes instruments such as violins sound harsh. Revel appears to work hard to eliminate this issue. The issue arises because the crossover from the midrange to tweeter drivers is often in the 2 kHz range. The off axis response of the typical midrange driver, due to its overly large diameter, is typically less than the tweeter, so response declines off axis at the upper end of the midrange unit's range, only to rise again when the tweeter, with its broader dispersion, takes over. This response is a characteristic of the design of these speakers. A four-way loudspeaker, such as the Salon2, attacks this problem with a smaller diameter midrange. Treatment of first reflection points on the horizontal axis can help with this issue.
Great answer / explanation - so much better than what I could have written . This sounds very much like what we heard from engineers at Harman Academy. Solving the problem in "handing off" the frequencies between the midrange and tweeter is one of their priorities. This issue in other speakers was demonstrated to us several times, especially during the comparisons of in-wall models between Sonance and Revel. The Revels just sounded so much more coherent and spacious in that critical mid - treble range, so critical for reproducing vocals accurately. The Sonance speakers just sounded so much more "pinched."

It's my understanding this is where so many B&W designs fall down, as the midrange driver is too big in relation to the tweeter.

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post #8554 of 8707 Old 07-09-2016, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Brad/Viper-Fan View Post
Thanks John for all the great information from your listening sessions, you answered many questions I had been thinking about and many I hadn't thought of yet! Looking forward to your comparison of the F208 and LSR708. The F206 seems very similar to the F36, if you have a chance to compare those two it would be very interesting to hear how much of an improvement the F206 might be. Thanks again for all your contributions to this forum, very much appreciated!
Hopefully this will happen sooner rather than later Thanks for your comments, Brad! Our shipment of SCLs showed up. Hopefully we will have time to listen to these over the next week or so.

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post #8555 of 8707 Old 07-09-2016, 11:49 AM
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But JS you said n the sentence above that I should have included in the cut you said the M2s have greater dynamics and impact and the Salon2 was more "silky".

It's just my background I suppose but what most people want to hear in thier homes is how the Jazz group sounded in the club or the gospel group sounded in church or how the Eagles sounded live or how Star Wars sounded at the cinema.

Speakers like key sound itself have signatures and characteristics by frequency range if you will but I never got, bloom, warm, air or silky.

This is not to say JBL and REVEL are not great products the indeed are. I guess it's all in the pitch no pun intended.
Yeah, I know, I hate these kinds of adjectives (pinched, silky, tubby, etc) BUT I can see why so many in the audio press rely on them. Yet they can only convey so much.

A little philosophical, but your point about recreating how a jazz trio sounds in a club / choir sounded in a church is very hard to qualify vis a vis the recording. Most of what makes music sound "live" is the echo / reverberation of the space in which the performance takes place, which only a multi-channel recording can capture. It's so sad that surround music recordings have not taken off like so many of us wish, because down that road lies the most effective way of reproducing the sound of a live performance. Multi-channel music on my JBL / Revel hybrid system sounds just glorious (and that's not just hyperbole).

The sound of STAR WARS in a theater is a much easier one to recreate, because we are talking about reproducing the sound of a recording, not a live performance. Everything is layered onto to the soundtrack element by element and does not really represent at all the sound recorded on the set. Other than the dialogue - which requires treatment of its own - everything else only lives inside the actual movie mix. (The music score would be an exception, I suppose, but so often it gets buried under layers of sound effects).

Most music recordings are not created in the same way we would experience a live performance. With pop / rock / country music, all musicians are generally recorded separately and then placed in an artificial "space" by the mix engineer. Even classical recordings have special spot microphones dropped into the various instrumental sections so the engineer can balance it all out into the master.

On the other hand, there are some recordings that are captured with a simple two microphone setup from an idealized listening space (those on the Chesky label come to mind). In that case I would say we would have the opportunity to compare how the live performance sounds in relation to the recording.

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post #8556 of 8707 Old 07-09-2016, 12:36 PM
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I used all kinds of gadgets years ago. Lexicon, Eventide, DBX to try to recreate the effect. Mixing live sound for 7 years with our church's praise band makes me appreciate music the way it should be.
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post #8557 of 8707 Old 07-13-2016, 07:08 PM
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FYI -

I've created a new thread discussion for higher end JBL / Harman products like Revel, JBL M2s, 708s, JBL Synthesis, etc. You can check it out here:

Official JBL Synthesis / Pro / Revel Home Theater Thread

To be clear, this is not meant to hijack the Revel thread at all, just a place to discuss the line in relation to other high-end Harman product like the JBL Synthesis and Pro lines, where there is often overlap.

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post #8558 of 8707 Old 07-15-2016, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post

RE: your in-ceilings. Where are they crossed over? I'm using the Revel C763L and, based on a recommendation from a JBL Synthesis engineer, I crossed them over at 120hz. They play impressively loud just using the surround amp in my Marantz receiver. As you probably know, it's the bass that absorbs most of the power.
John, I forgot thank you for this little piece of advice. That solved my problem! The surrounds were crossed over at 80Hz.
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post #8559 of 8707 Old 07-15-2016, 08:03 AM
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What's to become of this thread now that we don't talk about JBL Synthesis?


- Rich

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post #8560 of 8707 Old 07-15-2016, 09:29 AM
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What's to become of this thread now that we don't talk about JBL Synthesis?

- Rich
I would hope this thread will get even more traffic and interest - that's my goal, anyway! All I want to do with the other thread is bring attention to the Harman high end brands (Synthesis and Revel) so people can see how they interrelate, and what an increase in performance they bring. I just wanted a place to discuss that intersection as well as create a "repository" where I could put some of my comparisons between the lines.

That said, pure Revel discussion should remain here (IMO). And I will remain on top of this thread just as much as ever, if I can bring anything to the discussion in terms of answering questions and sharing inside information.

FYI, the specs and performance parameters of all of the Revel speakers are pre-loaded into the Harman ARCOS software, so it is possible to add a Synthesis SDEC to a full Revel system and get all of the benefit of Synthesis / ARCOS calibration while remaining "full Revel." That's exactly what Harman was showing at CEDIA last year and the High End Show in Newport this year. Scott Wilkinson wrote about it here:

Revel at THE Show Newport 2016

This is exactly the kind of stuff I want to highlight in the new thread, since many people don't know about this
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post #8561 of 8707 Old 07-15-2016, 05:37 PM
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Rich,

When you speak of vertical bi-amping, what kind of y-adapter do you use to split the signal? I just took delivery of f-208 / c-208 combo working with John S. I'm coming from a Snell XA system purchased 15 years ago after Kevin left Snell.

Thanks,

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post #8562 of 8707 Old 07-15-2016, 05:57 PM
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Rich,

When you speak of vertical bi-amping, what kind of y-adapter do you use to split the signal? I just took delivery of f-208 / c-208 combo working with John S. I'm coming from a Snell XA system purchased 15 years ago after Kevin left Snell.

Thanks,

Bill
I connect balanced XLR female to 2 - XLR male to the amps.
These Blue Jeans cable Belden 1508A Y-splitter Balanced Audio Cables 1-foot:


http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/...udio/index.htm


If you want a inexpensive solution. Amazon has these GLS cables:


https://www.amazon.com/GLS-Audio-Pat...to+XLR+Y+cable


I have found difference between balanced cables and settled on Blue Jeans because they are well-built, thin, and available in the custom sizes.


- Rich
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post #8563 of 8707 Old 07-15-2016, 06:45 PM
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Good info, thanks for the reply.

Bill
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post #8564 of 8707 Old 07-16-2016, 05:08 AM
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Hello all,
Just wanted to let you know how happy I am that I went with the C208 over the C205. I still am amazed how big it is! It pairs perfectly with my F206's. Thanks John for all the advice and help you gave me while I made my decision.

Regards,
Jeff
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post #8565 of 8707 Old 07-16-2016, 06:08 AM
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Hello all,
Just wanted to let you know how happy I am that I went with the C208 over the C205. I still am amazed how big it is! It pairs perfectly with my F206's. Thanks John for all the advice and help you gave me while I made my decision.

Regards,
Jeff
I fully agree Jeff. The biggest surprise about my purchase was how seemlessly the c208 blended with my f208, especially on 5.1 dvd-audio and sacds.
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post #8566 of 8707 Old 07-16-2016, 06:21 AM
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I fully agree Jeff. The biggest surprise about my purchase was how seemlessly the c208 blended with my f208, especially on 5.1 dvd-audio and sacds.
Hey Bill,
Yes, 5.1 music sounds amazing. Just watched the latest Mission Impossible movie (Blue ray), and was totally blown away by the seamless sound coming out of my 3 fronts.

Regards,
Jeff
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post #8567 of 8707 Old 07-16-2016, 09:49 AM
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Glad everyone here is happy with their Performa3s! I had a limited time to listen to my new F208s last night and was amazed at the detail and fullness of the sound. I was sad when I had to cut the listening session short.

RE: all these comments about having a good center channel speaker. I thought posting these screencaps might be helpful - you can see exactly how much energy comes from the center channel on your typical modern Hollywood film, and why a good center channel is crucial. These are waveform drawings from within Sony Vegas, showing the relative energy within each channel. Channel 1 is left, channel 2 right, 3 center, 4 LFE, 5 left surround, 6 right surround:

STAR TREK 2009 (Enterprise goes to warp):



INDIANA JONES AND THE KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL (cliff chase):



THE TWO TOWERS (Gandalf and army racing down the hill, sun behind their backs):

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post #8568 of 8707 Old 07-16-2016, 10:01 AM
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Looking forward to more of your impressions, John. The F208 is one of my current favorite speakers, regardless of price.
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post #8569 of 8707 Old 07-18-2016, 09:09 AM
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So I have the Salon 2 with an MC452 amp....

As we all know, the Salons are not a very efficient speaker.....

So when I get up to volume, the power guard lights on the amp will flash occasionally......

Is this that bad if they flash occasionally, or should I back up the volume a decibel or two, so they don't flash anymore ?

Maybe I need to look at an amp with some more power......

Shelly
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post #8570 of 8707 Old 07-18-2016, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by shelly40 View Post
So I have the Salon 2 with an MC452 amp....

As we all know, the Salons are not a very efficient speaker.....

So when I get up to volume, the power guard lights on the amp will flash occasionally......

Is this that bad if they flash occasionally, or should I back up the volume a decibel or two, so they don't flash anymore ?

Maybe I need to look at an amp with some more power......

Shelly

What that means depends on the amp.
In general, yes, back off until they do not blink or at least almost never.

What amp do you use?

- Rich
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post #8571 of 8707 Old 07-18-2016, 09:53 AM
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The amp is a Mcintosh MC452.....

it is rated at 450 watts per channel.....

Shelly
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post #8572 of 8707 Old 07-18-2016, 09:56 AM
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I would give macintosh a call and see if thats normal

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post #8573 of 8707 Old 07-18-2016, 10:20 AM
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The amp is a Mcintosh MC452.....

it is rated at 450 watts per channel.....

Shelly
The Salon2's can handle that power and more.

My ATI6000 series are about the same power into 4 ohms.
The AT6000 clipping indicators illuminate at -6 (on the Emotiva XMC-1) when playing some content.

If you find the volume level acceptable when the clip indicators are not lit, you are all set.

- Rich
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post #8574 of 8707 Old 07-18-2016, 10:24 AM
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The Salon2's can handle that power and more.

My ATI6000 series are about the same power into 4 ohms.
The AT6000 clipping indicators illuminate at -6 (on the Emotiva XMC-1) when playing some content.

If you find the volume level acceptable when the clip indicators are not lit, you are all set.

- Rich
I know the Salons can handle the power......

But is the Power Guard indicating that the amp is clipping ?

Do I need more power if I want to listen at the levels that activate the Power Guard circuit ?

Shelly
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post #8575 of 8707 Old 07-18-2016, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shelly40 View Post
I know the Salons can handle the power......

But is the Power Guard indicating that the amp is clipping ?

Do I need more power if I want to listen at the levels that activate the Power Guard circuit ?

Shelly

You do. A Revel support representative recommended made there recommendations to me over the phone:
<500 WPC, bi-amp. There is no official Revel recommendation since users have different requirements.


I bi-amp, although that does not radically alter clipping level. However, the woofers likely clip first and so the high-end is no longer affected. At -6, bi-amped sounded better. The ATI6000 clipping indicators lit but the sound was clearer than single-amped.


From Mcintosh about the MC452:


Quote:
Autoformer, which guarantees your speakers will always receive the full 450 watts regardless of their impedance, while Power Guard® will prevent clipping that could damage your speakers."

I am not sure what Power Guard does, but if like other soft-clipping designs, it will limit the volume which equates to compression at the lower end or across the full band.


If you want more volume you will need a bigger amp. You can also bi-amp which makes clipping less likely to the upper end.


- Rich
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post #8576 of 8707 Old 07-18-2016, 11:17 AM
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Generally speaking, you can't have too much power. What usually damages speakers is when an amp runs out of power and starts clipping, thereby distorting. Looks like the Mac amp has a built in safety for this, but I don't know how reliable it is. Smarter to back the volume down.

Know some are a bit skeptical about this, but the Mark Levinson No536 amp was designed with at least some thought given to the complicated load presented by the Revel Salons.

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post #8577 of 8707 Old 07-18-2016, 11:21 AM
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Thought some here might be interested - I just posted info about Harman's ARCOS calibration system in the JBL Synthesis / Revel thread. ARCOS is the heart of JBL Synthesis systems but it is also possible to ARCOS calibrate a Revel system, as all Revel speaker profiles are included in the ARCOS software. The improvement that comes from ARCOS is quite dramatic - you can read about it here (as well as read the White Paper):

Official JBL Synthesis / Pro / Revel Home Theater Thread

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post #8578 of 8707 Old 07-18-2016, 11:28 AM
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Know some are a bit skeptical about this, but the Mark Levinson No536 amp was designed with at least some thought given to the complicated load presented by the Revel Salons.
It's not so much that I'm skeptical about the 536, as I'm sure it's a fine amp. The problems are:

1) Cost - $15k each MSRP is out of budget given that I have 6 Salon 2's and a Voice 2 in my system. Even with a generous discount, that's still a lot of money and each amp costs more than a single Salon 2.
2) The space required for 6 or 7 monoblocks just isn't an option for me. I can't fit more than 3 amps into my system without running into space issues. I recently switched from a pair of Parasound JC-1's and an A51 to a pair of ATI Signature AT6007's, partly for this reason.
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post #8579 of 8707 Old 07-18-2016, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
It's not so much that I'm skeptical about the 536, as I'm sure it's a fine amp. The problems are:

1) Cost - $15k each MSRP is out of budget given that I have 6 Salon 2's and a Voice 2 in my system. Even with a generous discount, that's still a lot of money and each amp costs more than a single Salon 2.
2) The space required for 6 or 7 monoblocks just isn't an option for me. I can't fit more than 3 amps into my system without running into space issues. I recently switched from a pair of Parasound JC-1's and an A51 to a pair of ATI Signature AT6007's, partly for this reason.
Your 6007's are extremely well built with some of the highest quality components. You are not giving anything up in sound quality compared to Levinson; except for bragging rights.

Current Equipment: Datasat LS10 w/ Atmos and DIRAC. Datasat RA7300, Aerial Acoustics LR5's (LCR), Aerial Acoustics LR3's (sides), RBH in-walls (rears), Seaton Submersive, Marantz VP15s1, 106" Carada BW screen, Oppo BDP-103.
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post #8580 of 8707 Old 07-18-2016, 11:52 AM
gsr
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Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post
Your 6007's are extremely well built with some of the highest quality components. You are not giving anything up in sound quality compared to Levinson; except for bragging rights.
Agreed, I was just explaining why the Levinson's just aren't an option for me and, most likely, many other customers, especially when a multichannel system is involved.

My only real complaint with the ATI's is that the front panels would benefit from a more professional look (to put it kindly...). They don't need to be .5" thick solid aluminum, but they could make them look a lot nicer without increasing the cost (at least not significantly). Since mine are behind perforated (Salamander Synergy) doors, it's not that big a deal.
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