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post #8611 of 8627 Unread 07-23-2016, 05:52 AM
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I've recently decided on the Revel f206/f208 over the Goldenear Triton One's. I'm leanings towards the 208's at the moment. They will replace the Def Tech towers in the attached picture.

Here's my question:

I have one SVS sub in the far right corner of my room. Probably 6ft right of my right tower. I plan on getting a second sub. SVS recommends keeping your subs on the front soundstage. If I go that direction, I could place a sub a couple feet outside the right tower but my second sub would be directly behind left tower. I have no more room. So my choices are A: put both subs on front wall but the left tower and sub would be super close to each other. B: Put both subs behind my couch and have plenty of space around my towers.

What option should I choose?
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post #8612 of 8627 Unread 07-23-2016, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoysiaman View Post
I've recently decided on the Revel f206/f208 over the Goldenear Triton One's. I'm leanings towards the 208's at the moment. They will replace the Def Tech towers in the attached picture.

Here's my question:

I have one SVS sub in the far right corner of my room. Probably 6ft right of my right tower. I plan on getting a second sub. SVS recommends keeping your subs on the front soundstage. If I go that direction, I could place a sub a couple feet outside the right tower but my second sub would be directly behind left tower. I have no more room. So my choices are A: put both subs on front wall but the left tower and sub would be super close to each other. B: Put both subs behind my couch and have plenty of space around my towers.

What option should I choose?
Need room dimensions and circumstances, but lacking that:

Try them both. How hard would it be to do that? I'd try the front placement first. You left out the option of one in front and one at the rear (behind your furniture) of the room. That could work too. Experimentation is the key. You might also try one sub just to see if by any chance that works for you. It's worth doing before you invest in the second unit as there is no cost. Having said that, Revel does recommend multiple subs if possible, and that does make sense.

If all else is equal, symmetrical placement is usually the best approach in normal settings in my experience.
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post #8613 of 8627 Unread 07-23-2016, 10:12 AM
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Room is 17x16.

I guess I could play around it. The subs are 80 lbs so I could but it wouldn't be easy.

You're right though about the 3rd option:

One if the front and one in the back. They would be in opposing corners with my room which I suppose would be ideal for that configuration.

I haven't bought my equipment yet but I'm just game planning and trying to figure out what would best based off recommendations from others who have more experience and if there is a general rule of thumb with sub placement.

I'm also worried that having the sub directly behind the f206/f208 will hurt performance from my tower speakers
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post #8614 of 8627 Unread 07-23-2016, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
My gear is in my profile.
Although my living room is torn down to the studs, it was and will be:
Oppo 105
Anthem D2
Emotiva XPA-1L monoblocks
Revel Studio2s
All balanced interconnects.
Happy?
Didn't find any gear info in the profile. Are you sure it is there? Maybe i just don't know where to look.
You still didn't mention what were you listening when it shut down. I suppose watching movie loud with heavy sub bass content could shut it down if you have no subwoofers.
Music...very unlikely if everything is working normally.
Whats the distance between MLP and speakers?

Revel Ultima Salon 2, Revel M106, Revel C208, Yamaha P5000S, Denon X5200, Panasonic 65" VT50, SVS PC13-Ultra
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post #8615 of 8627 Unread 07-23-2016, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoysiaman View Post
Room is 17x16.

I guess I could play around it. The subs are 80 lbs so I could but it wouldn't be easy.

You're right though about the 3rd option:

One if the front and one in the back. They would be in opposing corners with my room which I suppose would be ideal for that configuration.

I haven't bought my equipment yet but I'm just game planning and trying to figure out what would best based off recommendations from others who have more experience and if there is a general rule of thumb with sub placement.

I'm also worried that having the sub directly behind the f206/f208 will hurt performance from my tower speakers


MBM's (mid bass modules) work best nearfield. If you do choose to place a sub directly behind the LP, I'd recommend keeping it no lower than 40 HZ. See the excellent thread "Nearfield MBM's for Increased Tactile Response." Those guys have spent hours experimenting and documenting their findings. They've changed my views of how to get full range bass in my space.


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post #8616 of 8627 Unread 07-23-2016, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Didn't find any gear info in the profile. Are you sure it is there? Maybe i just don't know where to look.
You still didn't mention what were you listening when it shut down. I suppose watching movie loud with heavy sub bass content could shut it down if you have no subwoofers.
Music...very unlikely if everything is working normally.
Whats the distance between MLP and speakers?
I'm assuming that you're addressing the person having the amp shutdown issue and not me.
I have no issues, well not with my system anyway

Yeah you're right.
My gear info is gone. Guess it got whacked as a result of the hack and userid resets etc.
Oh well.

 

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post #8617 of 8627 Unread 07-23-2016, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
MBM's (mid bass modules) work best nearfield. If you do choose to place a sub directly behind the LP, I'd recommend keeping it no lower than 40 HZ. See the excellent thread "Nearfield MBM's for Increased Tactile Response." Those guys have spent hours experimenting and documenting their findings. They've changed my views of how to get full range bass in my space.


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Thanks for the tip. I went to that thread and it was really hard for me to comprehend. There were so many acronyms like LP (what's that stand for) that it was hard for me to follow. Are you saying it's ok to put the sub behind my f208 as long as I set the crossover to 40hz on the f208?
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post #8618 of 8627 Unread 07-23-2016, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoysiaman View Post
Thanks for the tip. I went to that thread and it was really hard for me to comprehend. There were so many acronyms like LP (what's that stand for) that it was hard for me to follow. Are you saying it's ok to put the sub behind my f208 as long as I set the crossover to 40hz on the f208?


LP= listening position. I'll try to summarize the important findings on the thread:
1. Ported MBM's offer midbass big subs postioned farfield cannot match
2. The bass that makes your chest rattle is in the 50-70HZ range
3. Ideally, a ported midbass sub with a resonance frequency in the 50-70 HZ range delivers the most impact
4. A recommended sub for this purpose is the $300 BEHRINGER 1200D - it is so effective it produced significantly more midbass than a similarly positioned 15" ported Rythmik sub.
5. The MBM should be positioned as close as possible to the back of the chair
6. The MBM should only operate in the midbass range.
7. For lowest bass tactility, the Crowson Tactile Transducers can greatly reinforce the bass from a big sub positioned in the front of the room and can extend down into the single digits (from 40hz to below 10 HZ) - the very lowest bass levels
8. Big subs cannot reproduce effectively 80-20 HZ , they need to be reinforced with an MBM to do this, and for greatest tactility, a TT (tactile transducer) should be added (the feedback from owners of the Crowsons is off the charts- check out the dedicated Crowson thread)


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post #8619 of 8627 Unread 07-24-2016, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
I'm assuming that you're addressing the person having the amp shutdown issue and not me.
I have no issues, well not with my system anyway

Yeah you're right.
My gear info is gone. Guess it got whacked as a result of the hack and userid resets etc.
Oh well.
Oh, I see, I have just reread your post and noticed you actually replied to someone else. Though I don't see that person mentioning amp "shutting down" but simply going into soft clipping.

Revel Ultima Salon 2, Revel M106, Revel C208, Yamaha P5000S, Denon X5200, Panasonic 65" VT50, SVS PC13-Ultra
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post #8620 of 8627 Unread 07-24-2016, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoysiaman View Post
I've recently decided on the Revel f206/f208 over the Goldenear Triton One's. I'm leanings towards the 208's at the moment. They will replace the Def Tech towers in the attached picture.

Here's my question:

I have one SVS sub in the far right corner of my room. Probably 6ft right of my right tower. I plan on getting a second sub. SVS recommends keeping your subs on the front soundstage. If I go that direction, I could place a sub a couple feet outside the right tower but my second sub would be directly behind left tower. I have no more room. So my choices are A: put both subs on front wall but the left tower and sub would be super close to each other. B: Put both subs behind my couch and have plenty of space around my towers.

What option should I choose?
It would be best to get the F208's installed in your home and then see you think about the bass output both subjectively and with tools such as REW. You may find that the bass is excellent without any added support.

The F208 has two 8-inch woofers which is essentially equivalent to one 11 to 12-inch woofer, and of course you'll have two speakers. The woofers in the F208 seem to have been designed to handle bass and nothing else, which is good. The woofers cross over to the midrange at 270 Hz with a 4th order crossover, which means their response falls off at 24dB per octave with rising frequency, which is also a very good characteristic. Having a 24dB crossover at a relatively low frequency, and then consistently implementing it in production, costs money vs a crossover higher in frequency, and often of lower order, which is one reason why it isn't always done. It also requires a midrange that can take over at 270 Hz, which again costs money for the midrange driver, especially in a system that is specified to take up to 350 watts. Keeping the woofers out of the midrange, all things being equal, produces a cleaner midrange. In particular it reduces multi-tone intermodulation distortion. In listening to music, subwoofers are often added to loudspeakers to reduce the load on their woofer, when it is handling frequencies far into the midrange. This reduces distortion in the midrange as well as the bass.

The F208 appears to have a very well designed ported woofer section. Well-designed ported woofers (the driver and the ported enclosure) fundamentally have much lower distortion than sealed systems as the frequency produced drops toward resonance. A port reduces the excursion requirements of the woofer driver, and thus distortion, as frequency drops. Excursion of a driver increases by a factor of four with each octave drop in frequency. For a sealed woofer this quickly increases the distortion. The downside of ported woofers is that they need to be correctly designed. Thiele and Small developed the analytical methods for designing ported speakers, but implementation still requires good design of the entire loudspeaker. The measurements of the F208 in Stereophile show a very well designed ported system. Resonance is 27 Hz which means that the port handles much of the output down to this frequency. The port does it job around 27 Hz and doesn't have output where is shouldn't. The crossover between the woofer and midrange is as specified.

Figure 3 in this link shows the test results.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/r...SEGmXlSj0cg.97

Contrast the results above with the results from this more expensive speaker. Figure 3 shows that the port provides output at higher frequencies where it shouldn't, and that the crossover to the midrange is at around 800 Hz. Even the subjective part of the review notes problems in this area, and usually these reviews are all positive.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/p...VOUJmbl5pix.97

Here is another even more expensive speaker with a port who's output leaks into the midrange, figure3:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/m...GKZTwTDU5QA.97

And another, figure 2:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/b...2fSETaxsQ6g.97

Bottom-line here is that the F208 provides an excellent ported woofer section with response from below 27 Hz to 270 Hz, and likely with low distortion and high output. Depending on the room, and your choice of music, a subwoofer may not be required for excellent results reproducing music. Club-type music, with lots of mid-bass, may benefit from a sub designed for high output around 60 Hz. Hsu and others make such more specialized devices.

An appropriate subwoofer for home theater will add higher output at frequencies down toward 20 Hz, if that's in your requirements, higher output at mid-bass frequencies, and perhaps more even bass response with multiple subs. Careful selection of a subwoofer, data-bass.com has excellent test results, will be required. Since the F208 already has excellent, clean bass down to around 27 Hz and below, it may take several mid-range subs (preferably ported) to make a substantial difference, or something like a PB13-Ultra.
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post #8621 of 8627 Unread 07-25-2016, 05:01 PM
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Was going to post an answer to @zoysiaman , but then I read the above ^^^^^

No way I could have said it better, lol! We just got done with pretty exhaustive listening sessions with the F208 and they definitely lack for nothing in the bass

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post #8622 of 8627 Unread 07-26-2016, 08:24 AM
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Everyone has been waiting for Concerta2 reviews to roll in - well here they come! An excellent review of the Concerta2 M16 bookshelf model from Audioholics:

http://www.audioholics.com/bookshelf...-concerta2-m16

A 4.5 star review all around and this is Revel's entry level speaker within its entry level line, the Concerta2. These are the same speakers we heard at Harman last August in double blind comparisons with competitors.

We've already installed half a dozen systems using Concerta2s with excellent results The F36 tower is the top of the Concerta2 line, with the C25 center, S16 surround (which uses the same drivers as the M16 but in a wall-mountable box) and F35 tower rounding out the line.

The highlights from the review:

Pros

Superlative soundstage and imaging
Sleek and clean appearance
Balanced, natural sound

Cons

Doesn’t give speaker reviewers anything serious to complain about!

John Schuermann
www.thescreeningroomav.com Home Theater Design john@thescreeningroomav.com
JS Music and Sound Post Production Audio / Original Music for Film and Video
Check out my new movie!: www.stephensonmovie.com

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post #8623 of 8627 Unread Yesterday, 06:19 PM
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Excellent review of the Performa3 M106 speakers on Secrets.
I've read several reviews by Dr. David Rich and he knows his stuff to say the least.
Recommended reading for anyone wanting to know what makes an accurate speaker, mandatory reading for Revel owners.
http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/s...view-part-one/
This is Part 1 of the review.
Guessing the 2nd part will his experience integrating a sub via ARC.

 

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post #8624 of 8627 Unread Yesterday, 07:32 PM
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I have M20s and M22s, clearly prefer the M20s. Just looking for feedback: what by it's design should make the M106 sound better than the M20s or because the M20s are so good, the M106 while newer and different won't necessarily sound better to me?
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post #8625 of 8627 Unread Today, 07:49 AM
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I have M20s and M22s, clearly prefer the M20s. Just looking for feedback: what by it's design should make the M106 sound better than the M20s or because the M20s are so good, the M106 while newer and different won't necessarily sound better to me?
I have been an m20 owner for 15 or so years. Have the three way matching center as well and use a Paradigm Reference sub in the system. I use the system for about 75% video and 25% music. I actually prefer listening to most sources in two channel, not a big fan of surround. I have a high end two channel stereo in another room. Recently I have been nosing around to upgrade the m20's with a floorstander, even willing to spend some dollars to do so, listening to Kef Reference, Revel 206, Revel Studio2, Wilson Sabrina, Focal Sopra. My problem is that whenever I come home after listening to my set of test cd's and listen again to the m20's, I somewhat conclude, why bother, the m20's sound that good. Amazing in that they use a cheap $20 tweeter. I guess a really good mid woofer, right size box and well designed crossover. Good timbral match between mid and tweeter as well give them incredibly transparent yet dynamic sound. And the bass is pretty impressive down to a true 40hz. I agree with you, they are pretty impressive! Regards. Ned.
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post #8626 of 8627 Unread Today, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orbitron View Post
I have M20s and M22s, clearly prefer the M20s. Just looking for feedback: what by it's design should make the M106 sound better than the M20s or because the M20s are so good, the M106 while newer and different won't necessarily sound better to me?
I would add, I have listened to the Performa 206 and 208 and while they do a credible job in top to bottom flat response, they are both lacking in transparency, I would say that is their major weakness. The transparency I hear with the m20's is much closer to what I hear from higher end speakers such as Revel's Studio 2's. I am not picking on the Revel Performa series in any way, the same lack of transparency is often missing from most speakers in that price range. Regards. Ned.
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post #8627 of 8627 Unread Today, 10:53 AM
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I have been an m20 owner for 15 or so years. Have the three way matching center as well and use a Paradigm Reference sub in the system. I use the system for about 75% video and 25% music. I actually prefer listening to most sources in two channel, not a big fan of surround. I have a high end two channel stereo in another room. Recently I have been nosing around to upgrade the m20's with a floorstander, even willing to spend some dollars to do so, listening to Kef Reference, Revel 206, Revel Studio2, Wilson Sabrina, Focal Sopra. My problem is that whenever I come home after listening to my set of test cd's and listen again to the m20's, I somewhat conclude, why bother, the m20's sound that good. Amazing in that they use a cheap $20 tweeter. I guess a really good mid woofer, right size box and well designed crossover. Good timbral match between mid and tweeter as well give them incredibly transparent yet dynamic sound. And the bass is pretty impressive down to a true 40hz. I agree with you, they are pretty impressive! Regards. Ned.
Ned, like you I'm also using a Paradigm sub with the M20s, the Studio SUB12 with PBK. I also had the matching center but found it chesty so replaced it with the C52, a keeper. Earlier this year went for the gusto, a Voice2 in the downstairs HT. Next purchase will be a commercial popcorn machine.
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