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post #8911 of 9461 Old 10-30-2016, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Lindy's lad View Post
Well, I'll argue the fine points then, Obviously, clipping infers near maximum power in a properly adjusted home system, or any properly gain staged system for that matter but even so there are other considerations.

When the driver is driven to hard clipping it stops moving. This only accelerates the destruction of the voice coil and/or former. You can certainly tear the surround through over excursion and/or torch the voice coil via the application of too much power, but hard clipping can and often will wreck havoc below the rated power handling of a given driver.

In systems with multiple gain stages such as you'd find in a typical PA, the failure to adjust the various stages to unity gain can result in one of them (say, your mic pre) going into hard clipping. When that happens, a driver or multiple drivers as the case may be can be lost at significantly lower levels than the actual power the system might be otherwise expected to handle.

I'll stand by to discuss this further if I have not been clear enough. To a driver, clipping will to a certain extent look like DC except that I have to underscore they are not the same phenomenon. In the one case (DC) a very low drive level can destroy the transducer whereas with clipping you do need enough power to heat the voice coil either to the point where it will short out or distort the former, and here we can agree that some indefinite amount of juice will be required to do the dirty work. But that power will in most cases be far below the power required to pop the driver if the input is clean.

Of course you can through the application of too much power destroy speakers without creating a distorted signal, but I aver that more speakers are blown through clipping than through too much power. Your case may be different, but since we're seeking accuracy, I prefer not to leave this where it has fallen. In the pro world, this is especially the case, and you will quickly discover the truth of it because of the multiplicity of gain adjustments in any large scale system.


But if you're still skeptical, we can experiment on your system!
We could, but my system is immune to the clipping mechanism you describe
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post #8912 of 9461 Old 10-30-2016, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
The Salk's that I heard sounded fine. I just didn't see $14K in value.

What gets incredibly confusing is to try and sort out all of the interactions as to what sound "better or worse". I'm a victim of misjudging a speaker just like anyone else. Shy of comparing speakers in the blind in a well treated room with automation like Harman's facility, it's easy to get it completely wrong. Even in the blind in that wonderful engineer Harman room, it may not matter as to what we heard there as compared to our own room. Because at the end of the day, we all need to live with our flawed room. Those pesky speaker positioning constraints and room acoustics can make one speaker sound better in one situation. Later to be reversed in another setup.

Even with the exact same speaker with different rooms and different electronics can have a wide swing in performance. Speaking of Harbeth, Plinius was showing off a bookshelf in 1998. That room ROCKED! Yet in another room, the exact same speaker sounded dull. It didn't do a thing for me (played with tube amps). I told the tube amp guy to checkout the SS Plinius room. Because his room (or electronic synergy or both) sounded less than ideal.

So the guy who only heard the Harbeth / tube room is going to conclude Harbeth is junk while the guy who only heard the Plinius room would be tickled. This is one example of many as to how we can all get it wrong. I do love the Focal sound.
Excellent reply.
I'd expect nothing less from you.

As a side note:
If I can get someone to give me a halfway decent price on the 3 HT2s, I'd be seriously tempted to replace them with F208s.

 

It ain't ignorance causes so much trouble; it's folks knowing so much that ain't so


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post #8913 of 9461 Old 10-30-2016, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
We could, but my system is immune to the clipping mechanism you describe
My system is likewise protected. McIntosh provides good "limiting" circuits (they call it PowerGuard....input/output comparator).

It's safer all around to drive a powerful amplifier well within its limit than it is a lower power product at its rated output, and that's the way it is. All these things depend on the good judgment of the user but to be assertively clear, hard clipping is one of the most common causes of speaker failure both inside and outside of warranty. A blink of the clip indicator isn't the end of the road but one shouldn't go beyond as hard clipping builds heat in the gap in a big hurry leading to failure.

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post #8914 of 9461 Old 10-30-2016, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
What you said is correct. But we are debating semantics. Anyways, I think his point with only discussing clipping was that underpowered amps often distort. Therefore both the tweeters and the woofers are being asked to handle 3X the power.

He simply intertwined with the word "clip" when he should have used the word distort. I knew what he meant.
Actually, that wasn't exactly my point but thanks for sticking up for me, I think. I reply via rant because I'd like to explain myself in front of bright people.

Let's define what I mean by clipping in this specific case. Let's say the signal is sufficient to drive the amplifier to it's rails. This produces a square wave for the amount of time the amp is at the rails since there is no more it has to give. For a brief interval it will look like/be a square wave and the driver will likely top and bottom out then recover with little or no damage unless the operator doesn't correct the problem. If it is for a prolonged interval the heat generated will not be dissipated fast enough but absorbed by the voice coil and the former as well. Clipping isn't distortion in my meaning here. It's a flat line or a square wave if you prefer depending on the amplitude and duration of the waveform. You said that in so many words as well.

I think it's fair to say distortion per se has no great effect on the immediate health of the speaker, but it surely indicates the absolute limits.
Clipping is most usually transitory but will make its negative side effects felt down the road.

You will not hear any output at all from a transducer right before it pukes. There is no distortion for that point in time because the driver is not in motion. It's pinned in place for the duration of the positive and negative plateaus of the square wave. We hear the thing as the driver flips back and forth across the zero line. If it stays in that place too long, bye bye.
Here's a link from the usual source.

Mine isn't an advocacy to suggest everybody needs a huge amplifier, but on the other hand, if one expects to use the full acoustic power (rated maximum output) of a system to the max, one sizes the amplifier accordingly. Otherwise we exercise restraint to avoid clipping. audible distortion at high levels is the warning.

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post #8915 of 9461 Old 10-31-2016, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
Clipping really doesn't have the effect you are describing. A square wave can be viewed as the ultimate clipped signal. If you play a square wave you won't find that the drivers of your Salon2's go from a positive value to a negative value and just hang at these two values. The drivers in the Salon2 will make a nasty sound from the odd harmonic series of sine waves that makes up the square wave.

If a fix level, that is DC at the clipping level, was actually going into the Salon2 from the amplifier then the crossover would route this DC completely to the woofers. The DC you'll typically see from an amplifier that isn't broken, is the very small amount of DC that is inherently generated with asymmetrical distortion, that is, even order distortion.

Also a question, how does the peak to trough ratio (or the crest factor, which is the peak to average level) come into play, especially with films?
See above post for the bulk of my reply to the first question. Hard clipping doesn't have to be thought of as a square wave, it could be considered a flat line for its duration since that's when the problem is developed. Why users would allow that is a mystery, but they do.

As for my Salon 2s, I don't know what it would take but I know with certainty you can blow woofers with DC. A nice thing about the Ultimas is, that as the big ones are Ti, I'd inagine they won't ignite as readily as paper, which event unfortunately happened to a sound company of my acquaintance. Home experimentation with a crappy amplifier can once again prove or disprove the postulate.

I have 450 watts/ch RMS plus 2 dB (As specified) of dynamic headroom and I'd like more sometimes but my amplifier doesn't output square waves (or flat lines) by design and that has been a handy feature. I'm not aware of what sort of protection (apart from the crossover acting like a crossover) is built into my speakers but I'm happy to learn. See links in above post for my justification of the rest of the rant.


Regarding DC as you mentioned, only a defective amplifier will pass significant DC. I mentioned it solely because it has this singular similarity to hard clipping in that it freezes the driver in place (albeit permanently) before it pops the weasel. In that case it takes less power to destroy the driver but sadly if an amp is passing DC it's probably going to pass plenty. A good speaker repair guy can often identify DC in the autopsy.

Peak to trough, dynamic range, crest factor, I think you know the answer already. I'll be brief, which seems to get me in trouble here. I have to admit, at this point saying I'll be brief feels ridiculous.

You have to fit the full range from softest to loudest of a given performance into the dynamic range envelope of your system. 3dB of headroom above that maximum requirement would work, more is better, but if you have a zoftig amplifier it should deliver more than its rated power for peak demands as long as the user isn't being abusive. It's simple really. You have to size the amplifier and match speakers for the intent. Films, having exploding bombs, MG42s and deafening tsunamis need big medicine if reference level or beyond is the goal.

Is that what you were asking or did you want specific numbers? I'm not sure because the question is basic as I interpret it. I've read enough of your posts to know you're interested and very well informed so I suspect you want more than that, but I don't put it past you to ask a trick question. Please save those for an engineer!

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post #8916 of 9461 Old 10-31-2016, 05:30 AM
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Lindy's lad. I get what you were saying even though "clipping" doesn't mimic a square-wave. That said, Gooddoc, I would not let Lindy hook-up a square to your speaker at higher levels in comparison to a sine wave at the same high levels. That's because a square wave has more power as compared to a sine-wave. A sine wave has less power than a square wave or about 60% less (it's an integral or area under the curve). Of course, this assumes they both have the exact same peak to peak voltages which real-world clipping prevents. So in the real world, the high frequencies harmonics and distortion (that more-or-less raise the duty cycle by as much as 3X) causes blown drivers because it sees more power. I want "more power" to buy myself some headroom before my drivers see harmonics and distortion. While we are discussing what blows drivers, distortion and harmonics by themselves are not the culprit alone. You need a certain level of power in combination with the generated distortion and dynamics.

Additionally, you discussed DC causing problems. True. But most amps (other than DC coupled amplifiers) put a capacitor in series with their preamp output as well as the amplifier. Capacitors block DC. Some amps have DC detection circuitry in lieu of coupling capacitors.
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post #8917 of 9461 Old 10-31-2016, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Lindy's lad View Post
My system is likewise protected. McIntosh provides good "limiting" circuits (they call it PowerGuard....input/output comparator).
Don't be so sure that is a good thing. I don't want limiting circuits or comparators in my circuit path (KISS Principle). Instead, I'll program in a maximize volume on my preamp to cover my butt. For that matter, I'd rather not have coupling capacitors in the signal path either.

Let's look at it this way: which other higher end amp vendor limits the power other than McIntosh? So does McIntosh know something others don't, or the other way around? I'm a risk taker. To date, I've personally blown 1 driver (a DALI tweeter which had everything to do with its low crossover frequency; power sensitive). I'll pass on the extra circuit. I don't want anything dynamically comparing my input circuit and adjusting my input levels and I certainly don't want to pay money for it. IMHO, McIntosh loves the circuit because it protects the #1 failure of amps: accidental shorting of the terminals. Most vendors absorb those repair costs because audiophiles love to compare amps back and forth. As a bonus, they have something to market.

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post #8918 of 9461 Old 10-31-2016, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Lindy's lad View Post
Actually, that wasn't exactly my point but thanks for sticking up for me, I think. I reply via rant because I'd like to explain myself in front of bright people.

Let's define what I mean by clipping in this specific case. Let's say the signal is sufficient to drive the amplifier to it's rails. This produces a square wave for the amount of time the amp is at the rails since there is no more it has to give. For a brief interval it will look like/be a square wave and the driver will likely top and bottom out then recover with little or no damage unless the operator doesn't correct the problem. If it is for a prolonged interval the heat generated will not be dissipated fast enough but absorbed by the voice coil and the former as well. Clipping isn't distortion in my meaning here. It's a flat line or a square wave if you prefer depending on the amplitude and duration of the waveform. You said that in so many words as well.

I think it's fair to say distortion per se has no great effect on the immediate health of the speaker, but it surely indicates the absolute limits.
Clipping is most usually transitory but will make its negative side effects felt down the road.

You will not hear any output at all from a transducer right before it pukes. There is no distortion for that point in time because the driver is not in motion. It's pinned in place for the duration of the positive and negative plateaus of the square wave. We hear the thing as the driver flips back and forth across the zero line. If it stays in that place too long, bye bye.
Here's a link from the usual source.

Mine isn't an advocacy to suggest everybody needs a huge amplifier, but on the other hand, if one expects to use the full acoustic power (rated maximum output) of a system to the max, one sizes the amplifier accordingly. Otherwise we exercise restraint to avoid clipping. audible distortion at high levels is the warning.
Again, I don't think reprodution of a "square wave" from clipping has anything to do with killing a driver. As I've stated, if below the power handling of the driver it will play a clipped signal all day long from an amplifier. That is just a fact. It is why guitar amp drivers survive to play gig after gig.

As to our two systems, I was referring to fundamental differences between them, although my amp also has multiple driver protection mechanisms. The fundamental difference is that you have a crossover after your amplifier and I have a crossover before my amplifier. This eliminates, by design, even the possibility of the most common issue with amplifier clipping and driver damage, which is concentration of the signal voltage meant for the bass drivers being concentrated to the tweeter.
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post #8919 of 9461 Old 10-31-2016, 07:45 AM
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Lindy's lad. I get what you were saying even though "clipping" doesn't mimic a square-wave. That said, Gooddoc, I would not let Lindy hook-up a square to your speaker at higher levels in comparison to a sine wave at the same high levels. That's because a square wave has more power as compared to a sine-wave. A sine wave has less power than a square wave or about 60% less (it's an integral or area under the curve).
If the square wave voltage is below the power handling of my driver I'll play it all day long for you, if you can tolerate it .

My point being it is NOT the clipping that will destroy my drivers.
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post #8920 of 9461 Old 10-31-2016, 08:11 AM
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If the square wave voltage is below the power handling of my driver I'll play it all day long for you, if you can tolerate it .

My point being it is NOT the clipping that will destroy my drivers.
More semantics. Not you, but people get confused because they think their speakers are rated at "150 watts" and they are safe because their amp puts out "120 watts". Nope. The duty cycle matters just as the duty cycle of a square wave matters. Since peak power or bursts isn't generally the cause of blown drivers, I WANT my speakers to see power over their rated average.

The problem is (and relating to my point), if the volume knob is dialed to the same level and you give it a square wave versus a sine wave, you might be in trouble. So for all practical purposes, what good is a precise "maximum power rating" of a driver? Or putting it another way, how do you guarantee you no longer blow your drivers with your manufacturer's rated power? Hence my point. I would not let someone switch from a sine wave to a square wave at loud levels.

The horse has been beaten. All we need to do is turn down the darn volume and buy more watts than we need so we don't have to high of a duty cycle (caused by harmonics and distortion). If you like to crank it, your ears will suffer (especially as you age). So driver costs aside, I value my ears more than blowing $$'s (no pun intended) on replacement drivers.
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post #8921 of 9461 Old 10-31-2016, 09:00 AM
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More semantics. Not you, but people get confused because they think their speakers are rated at "150 watts" and they are safe because their amp puts out "120 watts". Nope. The duty cycle matters just as the duty cycle of a square wave matters. Since peak power or bursts isn't generally the cause of blown drivers, I WANT my speakers to see power over their rated average.

The problem is (and relating to my point), if the volume knob is dialed to the same level and you give it a square wave versus a sine wave, you might be in trouble. So for all practical purposes, what good is a precise "maximum power rating" of a driver? Or putting it another way, how do you guarantee you no longer blow your drivers with your manufacturer's rated power? Hence my point. I would not let someone switch from a sine wave to a square wave at loud levels.

The horse has been beaten. All we need to do is turn down the darn volume and buy more watts than we need so we don't have to high of a duty cycle (caused by harmonics and distortion). If you like to crank it, your ears will suffer (especially as you age). So driver costs aside, I value my ears more than blowing $$'s (no pun intended) on replacement drivers.
I don't disagree with any of that. It is voltage over time, or power(ie. "duty cycle"), not the shape of the wave. The most important thing to take away from this, for passive designs, is the fact that the passive crossover concentrates the voltage to the tweeter. A signal meant for the woofer before clipping generates higher frequency harmonics during clipping that is now sent to the tweeter. So if a song has 1 watt normally diverted to the tweeter, clipping might cause 10 watts to go to the tweeter, which will smoke it for sure.
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post #8922 of 9461 Old 10-31-2016, 10:31 AM
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I yield to the high power of my colleagues but I still love my McIntosh amp and its patented circuit.
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post #8923 of 9461 Old 11-02-2016, 07:48 PM
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Revel Owners Thread

So here's a question to start a fun debate. Based on everything I've been reading is it fair to say Revel produce the best speakers for the money in their respective class? What are the downsides?


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post #8924 of 9461 Old 11-02-2016, 08:01 PM
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^
If you looking for folks who hold that opinion, you're on the right thread


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post #8925 of 9461 Old 11-02-2016, 08:02 PM
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So here's a question to start a fun debate. Based on everything I've been reading is it fair to say Revel produce the best speakers for the money in their respective class? What are the downsides?


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Best what? If you are referring to sound quality there is no answer other than a subjective opinion.
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Best what? If you are referring to sound quality there is no answer other than a subjective opinion.


Yes. Sound quality wise. I think they do have some aesthetic down sides. And I agree that is a subjective question however if they sound good to many people and win many blind evaluations we have to say that subjectively or objectively they sound good.


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post #8927 of 9461 Old 11-02-2016, 08:10 PM
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^
If you looking for folks who hold that opinion, you're on the right thread


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Or some who are and do not.


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post #8928 of 9461 Old 11-02-2016, 08:27 PM
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Yes. Sound quality wise. I think they do have some aesthetic down sides. And I agree that is a subjective question however if they sound good to many people and win many blind evaluations we have to say that subjectively or objectively they sound good.


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I would not own Revels if I didn't think they sound good. OTH I have owned and heard many others that sounded just as good.

At any given price is is difficult to impossible for me to choose a best. Lots of speakers simply sound different but none sound best.

Just my subjective opinion.
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post #8929 of 9461 Old 11-03-2016, 10:19 AM
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So here's a question to start a fun debate. Based on everything I've been reading is it fair to say Revel produce the best speakers for the money in their respective class? What are the downsides?


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So here's my 2 cents on the Revel's.

In June I went to The SHOW in Newport to listen to as many speakers in one spot as I could. Specifically to hear the Revel line as there are no dealers in Vegas. Anyone who has ever been to an audio show knows that at some point it can get a bit overwhelming especially with some of the rooms that are displaying two channel systems that are north of 1/2 a million $$. There were also lots and lot in the middle, some I did find to be very appealing. However Revel stood out to me and I do like their aesthetics.

My experience with the Revel's made it very clear that one can put together an extremely wonderful sounding system within a reasonable "real world" budget. For myself I found the F206's to be very satisfying, Revel did not display to 208's there, they did have the rest of their line on display in various rooms. So based on that information I have decided that my upgrade will be the Performa F208's and C208 for my front three as that is about the current limit of my "real world" budget. I will be driving them with my Parasound A31.

If all goes as planned our new home and new HT/2 channel room will be done by the end of summer 2017, again for me it's what is in my budget as building a new home is not an inexpensive project.

Your mileage may vary...........
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post #8930 of 9461 Old 11-04-2016, 12:52 PM
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So here's a question to start a fun debate. Based on everything I've been reading is it fair to say Revel produce the best speakers for the money in their respective class? What are the downsides?
Let me put it this way - there is no speaker manufacturer other than Revel that can make that claim and base it on solid, empirical scientific research. Of course, every speaker manufacturer can state that they make the best sounding speakers, but without some kind of actual data to back that up, it's nothing but marketing. With Revel, they have years and years of solid, independently peer-reviewed scientific research to back it up - it's not simply internally generated marketing blather.

On the other hand, it's logistically impossible for Revel to bring in every single speaker that's ever been released into the double blind listening chamber, so of course it is possible that some manufacturer has stumbled upon a design that sounds better. But if you consider all the resources, testing facilities and engineers that Revel / Harman has on hand, it certainly stacks the deck in their favor.

IMO, Dr. Sean Olive's independent scientific work at Harman has essentially disproved the assertion that people of different nationalities or age groups prefer one type of sound over another. In fact, the research overwhelmingly shows that people prefer the most accurate speakers over all others during the double blind listening tests (they also show that such high accuracy must also be combined with a flat, accurate and even dispersion pattern). This research is published in a truly open, scientific manner at the AES and elsewhere. This means that even Revel's competitors benefit from their findings. (You can read up on all the pure scientific research Harman has done on Sean Olive's blog, here: http://seanolive.blogspot.com/).

To me, the finding that a flat, accurate speaker will win listening tests is not at all surprising. You experience the sounds of the world around you every day without any emphasis on bass, treble, or midrange - what you hear is simply what is out there to be heard. It is only reasonable to expect that a speaker that reproduces sound without any particular emphasis on any part of the frequency band will therefore sound the most natural to your ears.

Harman can now predict with 86% accuracy which speakers will win their double blind listening tests before they even begin the process, simply by comparing how well the speakers measure using the new CEA2034 standard. From a Sound and Vision interview with Dr. Olive:

"At Harman we can characterize and predict the sound quality of loudspeakers with 86 percent accuracy based on a set of comprehensive anechoic measurements. Our measurements are now the basis for a new ANSI/CEA 2034-A Standard: Method of Measurement of In-Home Loudspeakers so there is hope that eventually these will be adopted as standards for the industry."

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...2QX1fq8XKKY.99

It's easy enough to check out these types of measurements for yourself - Soundstage.com publishes the results of scientific speaker testing that takes place at the Canadian NRC testing facilities, which are some of the best testing facilities in the world (second only to those at Harman's facility in Northridge). Here are two examples of frequency response graphs that also show off axis response - one speaker is a Vienna Acoustics model, another a Revel (see if you can guess which is which):





What Harman's research has shown is that they can predict that speaker two will win the double blind listening test and be right over 80% of the time. From a scientific standpoint, even a 60% correlation of prediction to result is just staggering. When that figure is pushed out to 86% I think it is fair to say that the reliability of Harman's testing protocols is extremely high.

Of course, none of this means all the work has been done and that nothing meaningful cannot be discovered in the future. However, based upon what solid science combined with subjective listening tests can offer, I think it is completely fair to say yes, Revel speakers "produce the best speakers for the money in their respective class."

Last note, then I'm done with my latest novel

From my discussions with the Harman engineers / researchers that conduct the listening tests, some of the speakers that have done the very worst in their tests have been the most expensive.
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post #8931 of 9461 Old 11-04-2016, 01:26 PM
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Thanks John.


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post #8932 of 9461 Old 11-04-2016, 08:57 PM
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Yes. Sound quality wise. I think they do have some aesthetic down sides. And I agree that is a subjective question however if they sound good to many people and win many blind evaluations we have to say that subjectively or objectively they sound good.
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Just curious, what aesthetic downsides are there in your opinion?

 

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Just curious, what aesthetic downsides are there in your opinion?


Sure. The biggest for me is the base, most newer speakers have wider bases with spikes that are easier to adjust from the top and offer rubber feet. Im not really a fan of that walnut finish but i want a wood tone and last is the look with the grills off. Monitor audio Gold is my ideal speaker aesthetically. One final thing for me is that you cannot bi-wire the F206. Minor issue but I'm wired that way now.


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post #8934 of 9461 Old 11-05-2016, 11:58 AM
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Sure. The biggest for me is the base, most newer speakers have wider bases with spikes that are easier to adjust from the top and offer rubber feet. Im not really a fan of that walnut finish but i want a wood tone and last is the look with the grills off. Monitor audio Gold is my ideal speaker aesthetically. One final thing for me is that you cannot bi-wire the F206. Minor issue but I'm wired that way now.
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All speaker designs are a compromise and they relate to a given performance at a given price point.
More finish options higher price.
Pretty drivers? Picky much? Leave the grills on they're meant to be used that way.
The value of bi-wiring is questionable to say the least, if you meant bi-amping that's different.

I agree that floor spike configuring is a PITA but I would not buy a speaker specifically for the ease of spike leveling.
Sorbothane feet are easy enough to come by and attach. Heck you can find speaker supports that cost more than the F206!

Another thing I've found with just about everything, I predict that over time the minor aesthetic things you find lacking will become largely invisible.
Enjoy!
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post #8935 of 9461 Old 11-05-2016, 12:41 PM
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All speaker designs are a compromise and they relate to a given performance at a given price point.

More finish options higher price.

Pretty drivers? Picky much? Leave the grills on they're meant to be used that way.

The value of bi-wiring is questionable to say the least, if you meant bi-amping that's different.



I agree that floor spike configuring is a PITA but I would not buy a speaker specifically for the ease of spike leveling.

Sorbothane feet are easy enough to come by and attach. Heck you can find speaker supports that cost more than the F206!



Another thing I've found with just about everything, I predict that over time the minor aesthetic things you find lacking will become largely invisible.

Enjoy!


Agree that compromises need to be made. Not too worried with how pretty the drivers look more about the front baffle design generally. As far as leveling its been one my my biggest PITA's I'm on a hardwood floor and every time I move my speakers I have to tweak the spikes. Never mind that they never sit right on the little isolators. Its a personal pet peeve but one none the less. Rubber feet can be found but throw a set in the box and add $50 to the price no bog deal. As far as finishes i just don't like the orangey look of the wood finish maybe something a nit more neutral, many of us have our systems in a living area. The high gloss thing seems to be a trend. Im not really a fan bit that goes for most the manufacturers these days, Reminds me of 80's lacquer. Actually these are some of the reasons I haven't committed yet and keep going back and forth to my final 3.


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Hi guys. I'm thinking of buying Revel Ultima Studio 2 and Voice 2. The size of the room is 16 ft X 23 ft. It is not a dedicated HT room. I am using now Revel Performa 3 series. The system is 5.1. 2 F206, center C205 and for surrounds S206. The sub is SVS SB 2000. Will this be a huge improvement over my existing system? Are surrounds S206 a good match with ultima series? (It is not possible to use ultima Gem 2 for surround duties because of the furniture). I listen to music 70 % of the time and rarely exceed 75-80dB.(unfortunately I live in an apartment). What do you guys think about the studios as front left and right speakers? I can't demo the speakers because my dealer don't have them. They are expensive here in my country Bulgaria ( Eastern Europe) so I can only rely on you and online reviews. I am delighted with my F206 but I am sure I am missing something in the high frequencies ( hopefully the berillium tweeter will solve this) and when I push them hard they start sounding a little restrained. Sorry for the long post but I hope you will help me decide.

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post #8937 of 9461 Old 11-05-2016, 01:05 PM
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You should definitely hear more refinement on the top end with the Studio2s - Kevin Voecks at Harman has gone on at length about how much clearer and purer the highs are with the Ultima line over the Performas. The only thing lacking in the Studios is deep bass response, but you already have a good sub to pair them with.

One thing you did not mention is what you are powering them with. The Performa3s and the Salons need good, solid amplification. If you say the F206s are sounding restrained you might look at getting a higher powered amp as well.

Good luck!

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Hi guys. I'm thinking of buying Revel Ultima Studio 2 and Voice 2. The size of the room is 16 ft X 23 ft. It is not a dedicated HT room. I am using now Revel Performa 3 series........
I've owned F208s and Salon 2's each a single step up from your choices, but using like components except for the crossovers and woofer sizes/counts.
The differences between the Performa3 and Ultima line with most music is most pronounced in the high end. There is no comparing the tweeters in the two lines. The Ultima's high end is significantly smoother in response and more extended without being harsh and that is the same for both the Studios and Salons.

If it's high frequency extension and clarity you are looking for, the Studio 2s will be a revelation and a meaningful step up from the F206s at any level you play them at.

I won't discuss power here though
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post #8939 of 9461 Old 11-05-2016, 01:41 PM
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You should definitely hear more refinement on the top end with the Studio2s - Kevin Voecks at Harman has gone on at length about how much clearer and purer the highs are with the Ultima line over the Performas. The only thing lacking in the Studios is deep bass response, but you already have a good sub to pair them with.

One thing you did not mention is what you are powering them with. The Performa3s and the Salons need good, solid amplification. If you say the F206s are sounding restrained you might look at getting a higher powered amp as well.

Good luck!
Thank you for the reply John. I am using Denon AVR 4520. I consider
Mark Levinson N532H to power the studios. Will it be enough for my listening habits? Do you think S206 are a good match with the ultima studios and voice2?
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I've owned F208s and Salon 2's each a single step up from your choices, but using like components except for the crossovers and woofer sizes/counts.
The differences between the Performa3 and Ultima line with most music is most pronounced in the high end. There is no comparing the tweeters in the two lines. The Ultima's high end is significantly smoother in response and more extended without being harsh and that is the same for both the Studios and Salons.

If it's high frequency extension and clarity you are looking for, the Studio 2s will be a revelation and a meaningful step up from the F206s at any level you play them at.

I won't discuss power here though
Thank you very much for the reply. Yes i am looking for high frequency extension and clarity. I listen to heavy metal and hard rock. I'm sure I don't need the bass extension of the salons2 because of my listening environment.
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