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Old 11-21-2016, 08:15 AM
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Resale or someone else's view of desirability has never been in my equation when buying A/V gear.
My thoughts run along the line of get them now or in the very near future before any rebranding or quality changes take place. I am highly skeptical of a large conglomerate taking over. If they are completely "bottom line" driven then the luxury home audio devision could take a hit. I'm not saying that is going to happen but who really knows?

I'm sure I'm not the only one rethinking speaker upgrade choices with this announcement.

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Old 11-21-2016, 09:24 AM
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My thoughts run along the line of get them now or in the very near future before any rebranding or quality changes take place. I am highly skeptical of a large conglomerate taking over. If they are completely "bottom line" driven then the luxury home audio devision could take a hit. I'm not saying that is going to happen but who really knows?

I'm sure I'm not the only one rethinking speaker upgrade choices with this announcement.
I hope this doesn't turn out like in 2005 when D&M Holdings bought out Snell Acoustics (my last speakers before Revel upgrade) and within a few years they were out of business. I see alot of parallels between Snell and Revel, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
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Old 11-21-2016, 09:34 AM
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Never before and has Samsung and High-end Audio been mentioned in the same sentence.
#foreboding


- Rich
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Old 11-21-2016, 09:38 AM
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Never before and has Samsung and High-end Audio been mentioned in the same sentence.
#foreboding


- Rich
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Old 11-21-2016, 10:21 AM
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Although it's too early to know what if any impact this will have on Revel, I would be interested to hear the thoughts of John S. on this.
Not that anyone at Revel knows yet or has confided in anyone outside the company.
Hopefully someone in the AV press will get an interview with Voecks soon.

Personally I would be happy if the Samsung buyout operated along the lines of the D&M buyout.
One would logically think that the Snell line was dropped due to profitability.
No company no matter the owner stays in business without making money.
Of course there are a many instances of corporate and non-corporate stupidity.
Harmon International was shall we say less than a corporate good neighbor in the way they treated the Madrigal employees
when they moved the HQ & manufacturing to California several years ago.

When I first saw the buyout price, I was stunned but then I looked at some of Harmon International's financials.
Yikes. They do a lot of business.

 

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Old 11-21-2016, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Misencik View Post
I hope this doesn't turn out like in 2005 when D&M Holdings bought out Snell Acoustics (my last speakers before Revel upgrade) and within a few years they were out of business. I see alot of parallels between Snell and Revel, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.


There is a positive note here. Keep in mind that Revel sound systems are in Lincoln products so the brand aligns with the car technology strategy. Im sure the Revel speaker brand is a give away to us as a link to the auto market where the big money is.


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Old 11-21-2016, 10:29 AM
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Back to speaker questions. Ive been looking on line and haven't found much comparison but Im wondering how the Performa speakers compare to Sonus Faber Venere and Ultima to Olympica? Anyone who listened to both have any insights on them. Not necessarily what's better, because there's subjectivity there but more along sonic differences.


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Old 11-21-2016, 12:22 PM
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Back to speaker questions. Ive been looking on line and haven't found much comparison but Im wondering how the Performa speakers compare to Sonus Faber Venere and Ultima to Olympica? Anyone who listened to both have any insights on them. Not necessarily what's better, because there's subjectivity there but more along sonic differences.


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I listened to the Venere S at my local dealer, they only had about 5 hours on them and they were bright, that was 5 months ago I will likely go back and have another listen as I'm sure they have had time to loosen up. Associated equipment was Hagel and DH Lab speaker cables.
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Old 11-21-2016, 12:59 PM
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I listened to the Venere S at my local dealer, they only had about 5 hours on them and they were bright, that was 5 months ago I will likely go back and have another listen as I'm sure they have had time to loosen up. Associated equipment was Hagel and DH Lab speaker cables.


I presume brighter than your Revels?


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Old 11-21-2016, 06:05 PM
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I would have posted my thoughts in this thread earlier, but - as luck would have it - Brad and I were out of town last week attending Mark Levinson Academy with many of the major players from Harman Luxury Audio (Revel, JBL Synthesis, Mark Levinson, Lexicon, etc) when the news of the Samsung acquisition went down. NO ONE at the event seemed even the slightest bit stressed about the acquisition; in fact, the mood was incredibly upbeat. There are zero anticipated changes in how Luxury Audio will operate, and no changes to the brands or the brand philosophies are in the works. Talk about being in the right place at the right time - being at a major Harman event with big league Harman personnel when the news came in

It would make no sense for Samsung to devalue the very brands that made the Harman acquisition so attractive to begin with. After all, one of the major things Samsung is attracted to is the amazing brain trust and the brands that are already at Harman. To cheapen or coarsen the brands would only serve to undercut the value of Samsung’s investment.

Lastly, here is the official statement from the President of Harman International regarding the relationship between Samsung and Harman brands:

As you know, this week Samsung and HARMAN announced a definitive agreement under which HARMAN will become a standalone subsidiary of Samsung Electronics. This will create the most comprehensive connected technologies company in the world. The acquisition is expected to close by mid 2017.

Upon closing, HARMAN will operate as a standalone Samsung subsidiary, and continue to be led by Dinesh Paliwal and HARMAN’s current management team. Samsung plans to retain HARMAN’s work force, headquarters and facilities, as well as all of its consumer and professional brands.
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:16 PM
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Never before and has Samsung and High-end Audio been mentioned in the same sentence.
#foreboding


- Rich
Actually, Samsung has been actively pursuing R&D into high end audio for a while now. You may not be aware of this, but Samsung hired away one of Harman's top researchers - Allen Devantier - to lead their audio R&D project about 3 years ago. More about that here:

https://www.cnet.com/news/samsung-ke...-audio-brands/

From the article:

"We plan to retain all of Harman's consumer and professional audio brands," said Samsung spokesperson Bomi Lim. And the continuity doesn't stop there. According to a person familiar with the company's plans, the Korean giant plans to retain Harman's workforce and facilities, too.

Once closed, the deal will give Samsung a turnkey high-end portfolio of high-end audio brands. As such, it represents something of a change in strategy for the company, which had previously been slowly amassing audio expertise in an attempt to make the Samsung brand synonymous with high-end audio...

...under (Devantier's) guidance, Samsung's burgeoning high-end audio division, headquartered in the company's recently upgraded audio lab in Los Angeles, debuted products such as the Radiant360 speaker and an Atmos sound bar.

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Old 11-21-2016, 06:58 PM
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Back to speaker questions. Ive been looking on line and haven't found much comparison but Im wondering how the Performa speakers compare to Sonus Faber Venere and Ultima to Olympica? Anyone who listened to both have any insights on them. Not necessarily what's better, because there's subjectivity there but more along sonic differences.


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I haven't listened extensively to Sonus Faber speakers, but Soundstage.com measured both the Olympicas and the Salon2s - you can compare here:

Olympica:

http://www.soundstage.com/index.php?...nts&Itemid=153

Salon2:

http://www.soundstage.com/measuremen...ultima_salon2/

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Old 11-21-2016, 07:03 PM
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They, Samsung, bought it for the auto biz and the future connectivity market base.

I give it 1-2 years before things shake out as to what brands and divisions make or loose money.

Also capital return has to be in the equation. Even though "profitable " low margin ROI will not be tolerated long term.

One of my first business lessons was "the bottom line is the most important number on the P&L not the top one". This is very true in established operations in an established market but maybe not in a new company in an emerging market trying to grow market share. The luxury auto group does not have that luxury...

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Old 11-21-2016, 07:37 PM
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I haven't listened extensively to Sonus Faber speakers, but Soundstage.com measured both the Olympicas and the Salon2s - you can compare here:



Olympica:



http://www.soundstage.com/index.php?...nts&Itemid=153



Salon2:



http://www.soundstage.com/measuremen...ultima_salon2/


Thanks John. I read many reviews stating revels outperform speakers costing 2 to 3 times their price. Im curios as to what others have compared before buying their Revels and what characteristics, besides cost, led them to choose Revel. On other words what were they hearing when they said. These are for me. Bass, imaging, mod range clarity, etc.


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Old 11-22-2016, 08:25 AM
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Thanks John. I read many reviews stating revels outperform speakers costing 2 to 3 times their price. Im curios as to what others have compared before buying their Revels and what characteristics, besides cost, led them to choose Revel. On other words what were they hearing when they said. These are for me. Bass, imaging, mod range clarity, etc.


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I'm not sure how much "outside" perspective you want on this, but the two speakers on my shortlist were Ultima Salon 2s and Dynaudio C4s. I listened to both but in drastically different settings. I also have a sever aversion to trying to describe listening experiences, but Ill give it a brief shot. The revels to me had some sort of crazy voodoo magic going on WRT to clarity. On the good recordings, the performers seem very precisely placed. Otherwise the speakers were really great performers in every regard. They were being driven by the big Parasound monos and I was a bit surprised that they started to sound a bit stressed (maybe borderline harsh) at absurd volumes. The room seemed a bit hard and I was closer to them than ideal I think.

I ended up with the C4s for a couple reasons. I had had a set of dynaudio contours for 20ish years that I absolutely adored so they were a bit more of a known quantity for me. The C4s seemed like they did everything well to me also. They might not have had quite as much clarity/precision in the image for the conditions but they seemed to sound a bit bigger in the sound-stage. Overall,I just felt like I could listen to them at moderate to higher volumes for extended periods of time with more comfort than the revels. The craftsmanship of the C4 is a pretty significant leap beyond the revels IMHO if you care about that sort of thing. Buying a pair of speakers that cost as much as a civic is a bit of an emotional decision so I am unapologetic about valuing "handmade in Denmark" for dynaudio.

As I said I really hate audiophile type expletives so take it easy on me. I know the fine scientists at Harman have tons of data to show why their speakers are better than the completion. I have a tremendous amount of respect for their work and the scientific method in general. However, there are other very finely engineered products available as well.
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Old 11-22-2016, 08:29 AM
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I'm not sure how much "outside" perspective you want on this, but the two speakers on my shortlist were Ultima Salon 2s and Dynaudio C4s. I listened to both but in drastically different settings. I also have a sever aversion to trying to describe listening experiences, but Ill give it a brief shot. The revels to me had some sort of crazy voodoo magic going on WRT to clarity. On the good recordings, the performers seem very precisely placed. Otherwise the speakers were really great performers in every regard. They were being driven by the big Parasound monos and I was a bit surprised that they started to sound a bit stressed (maybe borderline harsh) at absurd volumes. The room seemed a bit hard and I was closer to them than ideal I think.



I ended up with the C4s for a couple reasons. I had had a set of dynaudio contours for 20ish years that I absolutely adored so they were a bit more of a known quantity for me. The C4s seemed like they did everything well to me also. They might not have had quite as much clarity/precision in the image for the conditions but they seemed to sound a bit bigger in the sound-stage. Overall,I just felt like I could listen to them at moderate to higher volumes for extended periods of time with more comfort than the revels. The craftsmanship of the C4 is a pretty significant leap beyond the revels IMHO if you care about that sort of thing. Buying a pair of speakers that cost as much as a civic is a bit of an emotional decision so I am unapologetic about valuing "handmade in Denmark" for dynaudio.



As I said I really hate audiophile type expletives so take it easy on me. I know the fine scientists at Harman have tons of data to show why their speakers are better than the completion. I have a tremendous amount of respect for their work and the scientific method in general. However, there are other very finely engineered products available as well.


Outside perspective is fine. Just as interesting to see why people chose what they chose as long as they actually heard what they are reporting not just rehashing reviews.


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Old 11-22-2016, 09:07 AM
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Yeah talk about timing.
Thanks much John.
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Old 11-22-2016, 09:15 AM
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danthony1, do you have any time line for making a decision?
Just curious.

 

It ain't ignorance causes so much trouble; it's folks knowing so much that ain't so

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Old 11-22-2016, 09:27 AM
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danthony1, do you have any time line for making a decision?

Just curious.


Not really. Ive been upgrading and taking my time over the past 2 years. Every time i think I'm decided, Im not.

Ideally after the holidays but for example. I upgraded my sub last year to a Monitor audio thinking id stay with them forever. Start researching and Revel is getting great reviews. Dig deeper and Dali are also. Then i go back to other traditional brands and Sonus is making major changes. Make a long story even longer, i sold the sub and bought a JL E112 (was considering Revel) this week. I guess I'm having some fun on with the journey and keeping the destination open.

Cheers.


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Old 11-28-2016, 05:03 PM
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I am thinking of using Concerta2 C25 center channel for back and surround speakers. What do you think?
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Old 11-29-2016, 01:57 PM
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I am thinking of using Concerta2 C25 center channel for back and surround speakers. What do you think?


I think you will have dispersion issues if you turn the speakers on end.


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Old 11-29-2016, 02:01 PM
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I think you will have dispersion issues if you turn the speakers on end. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I would use them flat the way they are intended to be used I have a book case in the back of my room and want to put them on that?
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Old 11-29-2016, 03:17 PM
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I think you will have dispersion issues if you turn the speakers on end. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I would use them flat the way they are intended to be used I have a book case in the back of my room and want to put them on that?
They are sealed so as long as you have space and maybe can angle slightly, I think they'd work great.

Their -3db is 48hz I believe, so as long as you don't need the low extension, you should be fine.
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Old 11-29-2016, 03:47 PM
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I would use them flat the way they are intended to be used I have a book case in the back of my room and want to put them on that?
In that case, you are actually better off using a center speaker lying horizontally as it was designed to be utilized that way. A tower or bookshelf speaker lying on its side will give you similar problems to a center speaker set upright

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Old 11-29-2016, 03:58 PM
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I would use them flat the way they are intended to be used I have a book case in the back of my room and want to put them on that?
You want to avoid putting speakers in a cubby hole whenever possible.
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Old 11-29-2016, 04:16 PM
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You want to avoid putting speakers in a cubby hole whenever possible.
Yes, I understand but I am trying to save floor space and these are for the rear channels!
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Old 11-29-2016, 04:17 PM
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They are sealed so as long as you have space and maybe can angle slightly, I think they'd work great. Their -3db is 48hz I believe, so as long as you don't need the low extension, you should be fine.
I would cross them over at 80 HZ let the subs take care of bass extensions!
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Old 11-29-2016, 04:31 PM
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You want to avoid putting speakers in a cubby hole whenever possible.
True, though the engineers at Revel are well aware that most center channel speakers end up in a cubbyhole or the equivalent (placed in an "entertainment center.") That said, they recommend making sure the speaker is not recessed (in other words, flush with the front of the cabinet) and stuffing the space with acoustic foam if at all possible.

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Old 11-29-2016, 04:45 PM
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In that case, you are actually better off using a center speaker lying horizontally as it was designed to be utilized that way. A tower or bookshelf speaker lying on its side will give you similar problems to a center speaker set upright
I doubt that. Look at the tweeter waveguides of center and bookshelf. Only if you put center horizontally you will have its dispersion equivalent to that of a bookshelf. AFAIK, the biggest problem of every center in existence is its proximity to the floor.



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Old 11-29-2016, 04:52 PM
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they recommend making sure the speaker is not recessed (in other words, flush with the front of the cabinet) and stuffing the space with acoustic foam if at all possible.
Yes if you have to compromise that's the way to do it.
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