Revel Owners Thread - Page 310 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9271 of 9552 Old 01-26-2017, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post
Yes 4 C208s would be placed opposite each other on the side walls and the back back side walls? Would that work or am I better off with all the same?
I don't think there should be an issue of destructive interference with 2 or more C208s in the same plane because each C208 has two 8" woofers, as long as there is adequate separation, but I'm not 100% sure. Revel designs their speakers to have excellent horizontal off-axis response being about as flat a response as you can get (from passive speakers), so my worry is that two or more C208s will have destructive interference as the two 8" woofers would extend the off-axis angle. The solution would be more separation. What we need is test data from at least a pair of C208s.
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post #9272 of 9552 Old 01-26-2017, 04:45 PM
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I'm sure the guys at Revel (or any acoustician) could do some CAD type acoustic models of wave propagation using any speakers. You would see the destructive interference patterns in vertical orientation and lack thereof in horizontal. The C208 is designed to be a center channel and used horizontally. My feeling is that for main L//C/R configuration, F208 (or any vertically oriented speaker) will give better polar response for stereo imaging in a typical home theater/living room setup. One has to do what works given their design constraints, but if you have the option, I think L/C/R vertical orientation will give the best coverage and imaging. We use horizontal center channels because of room design constraints (TV's mounted on walls, projection screens that are not acoustically transparent etc).

I worked in recording studio control rooms and mastering facilities for over 30 years. Engineers using console mounted monitors oriented horizontally still occurs, but a lot of guys figured out the problems and put their monitors on stands behind the console mounted vertically. Sit in the sweet spot and listen to a stereo pair of speakers mounted horizontally vs vertically. Move your head around and hear the difference. Even MTM designs (typical center channel designs) work better when vertical.

The OP is working with room design constraints and needs to use a horizontally oriented L/C/R speaker configuration. I don't think it is ideal and doubt that it is something that any HT designer/acoustician would recommend if vertical orientation is possible.

I fear that 3 C208's for L/C/R may have problems for anyone sitting anywhere but dead center with their head in a vise. That's a whole lot of drivers in a horizontal plane.

Last edited by Rex Anderson; 01-27-2017 at 05:42 AM.
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post #9273 of 9552 Old 01-26-2017, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I'm sure the guys at Revel (or any acoustician) could do some CAD type acoustic models of wave propagation using any speakers. The C208 is designed to be a center channel and used horizontally. My feeling is that for main L//C/R configuration, F208 (or any vertically oriented speaker) will give better polar response for stereo imaging in a typical home theater/living room setup. One has to do what works given their design constraints, but if you have the option, I think L/C/R vertical orientation will give the best coverage and imaging. We use horizontal center channels because of room design constraints (TV's mounted on walls, projection screens that are not acoustically transparent etc).

I worked in recording studio control rooms and mastering facilities for over 30 years. Engineers using console mounted monitors oriented horizontally still occurs, but a lot of guys figured out the problems and put their monitors on stands behind the console mounted vertically.

The OP is working with room design constraints and needs to use a horizontally oriented L/C/R speaker configuration. I don't think it is ideal and doubt that it is something that any HT designer/acoustician would recommend if vertical orientation is possible.
Well put.

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post #9274 of 9552 Old 01-26-2017, 04:56 PM
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Well put.
Thanks Kal. I was editing and adding some stuff in my post when you replied.
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post #9275 of 9552 Old 01-27-2017, 08:24 AM
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Here is some info for anyone who hasn't seen this type of measurement data. Although it pertains to large scale PA systems in arenas, the measurements could be done in home theater/living rooms.

https://www.meyersound.com/sites/def...ena_sde_a2.pdf

Scroll down to pages 22-33 to look at the sound field coverage plots that illustrate horizontal and vertical loudspeaker interaction.

The goal in our stereo listening rooms is to create a sound field with a phantom image that will accurately reproduce an acoustic event (like an orchestral recording) so one hears all the instruments on stage in the locations they were. A good recording played through a pair of speakers properly oriented and placed in a room with acoustic treatment can give L/LC/C/RC/R imaging that gives a sense of space and depth as well as the spread from left to right. Many audiophiles have never had the experience of being in a world class mastering facility to hear what a well designed room and playback system can achieve. It is very expensive to build the rooms and playback systems.

Here is a good link: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/The_Magic/The_Magic.htm

Moving beyond good stereo playback to surround sound for home theater has become increasingly more complex to do at all, let alone well.

Home theater research and development has advanced from Dolby Pro Logic to 5.1 to 7.1 to ATMOS and we need 4 subs to get smooth bass response in the room in all seats.

I used to think my 5.1 system was pretty good and I quit going to theaters for many years. Now, to get the best experience, it's cheaper to go to a good theater than try to build one at home. One needs a dedicated room that can accommodate all the speakers necessary for the current standard. It was hard enough with 5.1, now you need 9 speakers and 4 subs to get the full experience.

Check this thread if you want to lose your mind: Official JBL Synthesis / Pro / Revel Home Theater Thread

I need a bigger house.

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post #9276 of 9552 Old 01-27-2017, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by danthony1 View Post
I see. First thing to consider is are you interested in the new immersive formats , ie Atmos and DTS:x. If so you should plan for a new pre-processor. Along with that comes ceiling or up firing speakers. I prefer ceiling when feasible. With additional speakers come additional amps of course.

Going back to speakers, I upgraded my pre-pro first because mine was old and i wanted Atmos, amps came next for more power and more chennels and then I added 2 ceilings before I finally replaced my nearly 20 yr old Monitor audio speakers with Revels. Now I still have monitor audio ceilings that I want to replace with revels, an easy switch at some point.

I don't think you'll find a magic cheap $1k speaker that will outperform yours. I think that as speakers progress, what was the highest model flow down design elements to the lower models so you may find performas or concertos performing as well or better than yours, but at a cost. I don't believe you have to $7k today to match the quality of speakers you have but $1k won't get you there. Another thing you can do is think about adding additional Gems to complete your system, they come up on the used market from time to time.
Now, Ive never heard the gems so don't take it as a fact but Ive heard iterations of other speakers where this is true.

Hope this helps a little bit in your planning. Remember whatever you do install speaker cable in the ceiling for at-least 4 or maybe 5 channels.



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Thanks for your reply danthony. I continue to read at the cyclic rate and eventually I will feel knowledgeable enough to start construction. My plan at this point is to build a DIY with as many fundamentals as I can comprehend and produce, while staying madular and open archeticture as possible so I can bring the room on line initially with all the equipment I currently have and then start upgrading as need be. I didn't even know what Atmos was a few days ago...my learning curve is pretty steep right now. Thanks again
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post #9277 of 9552 Old 01-28-2017, 08:39 AM
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Thanks for your reply danthony. I continue to read at the cyclic rate and eventually I will feel knowledgeable enough to start construction. My plan at this point is to build a DIY with as many fundamentals as I can comprehend and produce, while staying madular and open archeticture as possible so I can bring the room on line initially with all the equipment I currently have and then start upgrading as need be. I didn't even know what Atmos was a few days ago...my learning curve is pretty steep right now. Thanks again
+1 with danthony1 and I think "staying modular and open architecture' is a good idea. I was sort-of in the same boat as you a few months ago (no Gems unfortunately ) but discovered Atmos/DTS-X shortly after starting my 7.1-inspired basement build and I've been full-bore Atmos 5.1.4 build(w/wiring options to easily expand) ever since and hope to be done soon. Can't speak from experience but did quite a bit of research on soffit-mounted speakers before my studio build years ago - very popular/successful in the studio/reference world but typically involves a lot of time/money and restrictions(afterwards) - I would think quite a bit beyond a $1K budget to improve/rival your Gems as fronts but if you want to research, the following is a good place to start...
https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/be...udio-monitors/

Regarding complementary speakers, if you're going to keep your Gems and go the atmos route, you may want to focus on Harman family product(especially legacy - lots of NOS still around) and/or products with similar tweeter/midrange materials. Even though your Gems are older, there's been a lot of 'sharing' amongst Revel, Infinity and JBL over the years, especially with in-wall speakers - e.g. the Revel C763L utilizes a flat-panel woofer pioneered by Infinity in the mid-2000s. My guess is there's a good/'reasonable' match out there for your Gems.
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post #9278 of 9552 Old 01-28-2017, 05:55 PM
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Gmore thanks for the reply. My hope is that my Gems across the front will sound great once in the theatre. I plan to have behind an acoustic transparent screen. My fronts used to be Platinum Solo's befor I upgraded to the Gems so I have been using the Solos as surrounds in various living rooms as I moved around. The are pedestal mounts so I have a feeling they might not scratch my itch in the dedicated theatre. I will also have some cost in the projector and screen. It finally time for my Pioneer Eliite 60" plasma to be retired as my main viewing screen. Looking at NOS to try to compliment the Gems is a great suggestion. It may be a while before I am at the point of speaker replacement/purchasing, but great to know there are smart people here willing to give some good advice.
Thanks again
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post #9279 of 9552 Old 01-28-2017, 06:09 PM
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Gmore thanks for the reply. My hope is that my Gems across the front will sound great once in the theatre. I plan to have behind an acoustic transparent screen. My fronts used to be Platinum Solo's befor I upgraded to the Gems so I have been using the Solos as surrounds in various living rooms as I moved around. The are pedestal mounts so I have a feeling they might not scratch my itch in the dedicated theatre. I will also have some cost in the projector and screen. It finally time for my Pioneer Eliite 60" plasma to be retired as my main viewing screen. Looking at NOS to try to compliment the Gems is a great suggestion. It may be a while before I am at the point of speaker replacement/purchasing, but great to know there are smart people here willing to give some good advice.

Thanks again


You could go with salon up front and use the gems for rear. I've seen the gen 1 come up often at good prices.


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post #9280 of 9552 Old 01-28-2017, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I'm sure the guys at Revel (or any acoustician) could do some CAD type acoustic models of wave propagation using any speakers. You would see the destructive interference patterns in vertical orientation and lack thereof in horizontal. The C208 is designed to be a center channel and used horizontally. My feeling is that for main L//C/R configuration, F208 (or any vertically oriented speaker) will give better polar response for stereo imaging in a typical home theater/living room setup. One has to do what works given their design constraints, but if you have the option, I think L/C/R vertical orientation will give the best coverage and imaging. We use horizontal center channels because of room design constraints (TV's mounted on walls, projection screens that are not acoustically transparent etc).

I worked in recording studio control rooms and mastering facilities for over 30 years. Engineers using console mounted monitors oriented horizontally still occurs, but a lot of guys figured out the problems and put their monitors on stands behind the console mounted vertically. Sit in the sweet spot and listen to a stereo pair of speakers mounted horizontally vs vertically. Move your head around and hear the difference. Even MTM designs (typical center channel designs) work better when vertical.

The OP is working with room design constraints and needs to use a horizontally oriented L/C/R speaker configuration. I don't think it is ideal and doubt that it is something that any HT designer/acoustician would recommend if vertical orientation is possible.

I fear that 3 C208's for L/C/R may have problems for anyone sitting anywhere but dead center with their head in a vise. That's a whole lot of drivers in a horizontal plane.
Now I don't have data, but having listened to the Revel C208, the vertical off-axis response is also pretty good. It is not advisable to use it in vertical orientation because of acoustical lobing between the tweeter and midrange. I agree that three F206s or F208s would be better for L/C/R, but it may not be an option for aesthetic reasons and three Gem2 in L/C/R configuration is not option due to cost constraint. Using 3 C208s for L/C/R would indeed bring a lot of SPL, but the sweet spot will probably be quite large too and not just in dead center. At least for rooms that are 20'L x 18'W x 10'H or smaller.
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post #9281 of 9552 Old 01-29-2017, 07:45 AM
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It's been suggested emotiva amps using balanced cable offers excellent sound for those of us with a budget, I would love to buy them and do a side by side with my F 52's but I'll be using the money from the sales of 1 to buy the other, my only reservation with the salon1 is their age but reading posts it seems Revel is still providing replacement drivers?
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post #9282 of 9552 Old 01-29-2017, 11:56 AM
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Now I don't have data, but having listened to the Revel C208, the vertical off-axis response is also pretty good. It is not advisable to use it in vertical orientation because of acoustical lobing between the tweeter and midrange. I agree that three F206s or F208s would be better for L/C/R, but it may not be an option for aesthetic reasons and three Gem2 in L/C/R configuration is not option due to cost constraint. Using 3 C208s for L/C/R would indeed bring a lot of SPL, but the sweet spot will probably be quite large too and not just in dead center. At least for rooms that are 20'L x 18'W x 10'H or smaller.
My only concern is how 3 C208's will interact in regards to comb filtering/phase cancellation due to the horizontal orientation. I guess you won't know until you try. If you sit in the sweet spot and hear a good stereo image with a solid phantom center using just L/R without phasing issues that's a good start for music listening. When you add in the center channel at the proper calibrated level and still don't have phase cancellation issues when you move your head around, you will know everything is OK. Try playing some pink noise to calibrate levels and listen for phasing as you move your head around once you have equal level from L/C/R.

It is important to keep the tweeter at ear level and have all the speakers in the same horizontal plane.

How far back will you be sitting from the speakers? Will you be sitting at the apex of an equilateral triangle between L/R?

Good luck, hope it all works out well.
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post #9283 of 9552 Old 01-30-2017, 03:28 PM
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Very interested in the F208/F206 and the new F208Be. Probably looking to make the purchase in summer and hopefully the F208BE doesn't get delayed. Otherwise the Spendor D7/D9 are high on my watch list.

Question: would the Parasound Integrated be enough (sound quality wise and power-wise) to drive the F208/206/be? It's rated 160 watts x 2 @ 8 Ω. Thanks.
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post #9284 of 9552 Old 01-30-2017, 04:38 PM
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Revel Owners Thread

I have pair of new F206s and driving them with Yamaha A2050 9 channel Amp. Also have tried older 100 watt per Parasound Amp. Both sound good, but Revel techs claim using beefier Amp would be better & also recommended. Therefore, I just bought 3 month old current generation Emotiva XPA 2 channel Amp that puts out 300 watts per channel. That sure will jump start my Revels!!
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post #9285 of 9552 Old 01-30-2017, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Shangri-La View Post
Very interested in the F208/F206 and the new F208Be. Probably looking to make the purchase in summer and hopefully the F208BE doesn't get delayed. Otherwise the Spendor D7/D9 are high on my watch list.

Question: would the Parasound Integrated be enough (sound quality wise and power-wise) to drive the F208/206/be? It's rated 160 watts x 2 @ 8 Ω. Thanks.
Seriously Shangri-La, for the price of the F208Be, I would be checking out Audiogon.
I know you're waiting for Summer but there's a dealer demo pair of Salon2s for less than the MSRP of the 208Be's.
Guessing you'd have to pay for freight insured delivery, which is the only way to go, and you'd still be at the MSRP of 208Be's.

If your room can handle them the Salon2s are as good as it gets.

 

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post #9286 of 9552 Old 01-31-2017, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Shangri-La View Post
Very interested in the F208/F206 and the new F208Be. Probably looking to make the purchase in summer and hopefully the F208BE doesn't get delayed. Otherwise the Spendor D7/D9 are high on my watch list.

Question: would the Parasound Integrated be enough (sound quality wise and power-wise) to drive the F208/206/be? It's rated 160 watts x 2 @ 8 Ω. Thanks.
The same three Revel's are on my list. I am looking forward to seeing what the actual retail price will be on the Be's, also not forgetting that the dealer should be able to provide some type of discount. My only thing is that they will be doing double duty in our HT and we will need a matching center, if there is no Be center then I will most likely be going with the F208's and a C208 across the front.

Power is not an issue for me as my Parasound A31 will do very well in that area.

G

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post #9287 of 9552 Old 01-31-2017, 11:31 AM
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The same three Revel's are on my list. I am looking forward to seeing what the actual retail price will be on the Be's, also not forgetting that the dealer should be able to provide some type of discount. My only thing is that they will be doing double duty in our HT and we will need a matching center, if there is no Be center then I will most likely be going with the F208's and a C208 across the front.



Power is not an issue for me as my Parasound A31 will do very well in that area.



G


Supposedly $10k list for the F208be. $5k for the m106be.


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post #9288 of 9552 Old 01-31-2017, 12:18 PM
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$10k??? Wowza, huge bump from F208 at $5k MSRP
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post #9289 of 9552 Old 01-31-2017, 12:29 PM
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My only concern is how 3 C208's will interact in regards to comb filtering/phase cancellation due to the horizontal orientation. I guess you won't know until you try. If you sit in the sweet spot and hear a good stereo image with a solid phantom center using just L/R without phasing issues that's a good start for music listening. When you add in the center channel at the proper calibrated level and still don't have phase cancellation issues when you move your head around, you will know everything is OK. Try playing some pink noise to calibrate levels and listen for phasing as you move your head around once you have equal level from L/C/R.

It is important to keep the tweeter at ear level and have all the speakers in the same horizontal plane.

How far back will you be sitting from the speakers? Will you be sitting at the apex of an equilateral triangle between L/R?

Good luck, hope it all works out well.
I have one C208 and it does put out a lot of SPL, but the dual woofers appear to act as one and having a set of 3, any comb filtering and phase cancellation would be offset by placing them further apart. The real question is how they would behave as a pair in stereo alone. Again, proper calibration is required. In my case, the center will be lower than the L/R and I'll be sitting back about 12' and not at the apex of a triangle between the L/R.

This requires a lot of testing before suggesting it. Right now in the last few months I've acquired the Emotiva XPA-5 Gen3 amp, Revel M106 L/R, C208 center, and B110 sub and it will take some for me to calibrate them all correctly.
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post #9290 of 9552 Old 01-31-2017, 12:53 PM
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Supposedly $10k list for the F208be. $5k for the m106be.


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Stereophile posted F208Be at $9K a pair?

link: http://www.stereophile.com/content/c...pxBGDmL39kx.97
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I have one C208 and it does put out a lot of SPL, but the dual woofers appear to act as one and having a set of 3, any comb filtering and phase cancellation would be offset by placing them further apart. The real question is how they would behave as a pair in stereo alone. Again, proper calibration is required. In my case, the center will be lower than the L/R and I'll be sitting back about 12' and not at the apex of a triangle between the L/R.

This requires a lot of testing before suggesting it. Right now in the last few months I've acquired the Emotiva XPA-5 Gen3 amp, Revel M106 L/R, C208 center, and B110 sub and it will take some for me to calibrate them all correctly.


I suspect you could be very happy with a calibrated set of what you already have. I had my 106 up front for a while and they put out nicely with a well calibrated sub. Maybe another option is m106 (or c208 center) all around with 2 subs.


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I suspect you could be very happy with a calibrated set of what you already have. I had my 106 up front for a while and they put out nicely with a well calibrated sub. Maybe another option is m106 (or c208 center) all around with 2 subs.


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Perhaps - as it is the WAF driving the recent upgrade and thank goodness for Revel for offering the high-gloss walnut finish. She's already complaining about C208 not being as "cute" as the M106.

Is there any word about the M106Be test data and how it compares to the standard M106?
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post #9293 of 9552 Old 01-31-2017, 03:46 PM
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Perhaps - as it is the WAF driving the recent upgrade and thank goodness for Revel for offering the high-gloss walnut finish. She's already complaining about C208 not being as "cute" as the M106.

Is there any word about the M106Be test data and how it compares to the standard M106?


Some on the forum have heard them. John S and Steve H I believe. First indications at least regarding the 208 is that they sound awesome.


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post #9294 of 9552 Old 01-31-2017, 03:58 PM
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I bet they are released to steal the focal sopra's thunder...if they come close or match, they would be a steal imo, especially with 10-15% off retail.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Velodyne HGS 12, VA 1512, Rythmik FV15HP
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post #9295 of 9552 Old 02-01-2017, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by rsg_1 View Post
...She's already complaining about C208 not being as "cute" as the M106.
Maybe try showing her a picture of the original robot-like Salons to put things in perspective?
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post #9296 of 9552 Old 02-01-2017, 08:15 AM
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Maybe try showing her a picture of the original robot-like Salons to put things in perspective?
That might backfire if she's a fan of the industrial look.
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post #9297 of 9552 Old 02-01-2017, 01:31 PM
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I have one C208 and it does put out a lot of SPL, but the dual woofers appear to act as one and having a set of 3, any comb filtering and phase cancellation would be offset by placing them further apart. The real question is how they would behave as a pair in stereo alone. Again, proper calibration is required. In my case, the center will be lower than the L/R and I'll be sitting back about 12' and not at the apex of a triangle between the L/R.

This requires a lot of testing before suggesting it. Right now in the last few months I've acquired the Emotiva XPA-5 Gen3 amp, Revel M106 L/R, C208 center, and B110 sub and it will take some for me to calibrate them all correctly.

If you use M106's for front L/R, can you keep them vertical? Can you use another pair of M106's for L/R surrounds (also vertical and at the right height)?

If that is a possible scenario, I think it might be a better system than using C208's as L/R front main speakers.
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post #9298 of 9552 Old 02-01-2017, 02:15 PM
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Just a few comments based on all this talk around using three C208s side by side:

My impression from talking to the guys at Revel is that the best option would be three F208s (or 206s) side by side. At the same time, they are also stating that three C208s side by side would have some benefits over two F208s and a C208. So they are not saying that three C208s side by side is a perfect option, but the impression I am getting is that they are intrigued by the idea from a "cohesive sound" prospect.

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post #9299 of 9552 Old 02-01-2017, 02:20 PM
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My understanding is that Harman has landed on a $8999 per pair pricing on the F208Bes. I have officially requested a C208Be on behalf of everyone here on the Forum We'll see what happens.

Harman sees the Bes as ideal for the two channel crowd; I suggested that the extra dynamics / headroom would be just as appreciated by the home theater crowd. From what I understand, others have chimed in with the same opinion.

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post #9300 of 9552 Old 02-01-2017, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by rsg_1 View Post
Perhaps - as it is the WAF driving the recent upgrade and thank goodness for Revel for offering the high-gloss walnut finish. She's already complaining about C208 not being as "cute" as the M106.

Is there any word about the M106Be test data and how it compares to the standard M106?
Nothing yet as the speakers at CES were just prototypes.

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