Originally Posted by Rex Anderson
Hey @John Schuermann
I'll dig out Floyd Toole's book again and look this up, but as I remember, he says the center channel should always be set to "small" because there is not much low end material there anyway. What are you using for your center channel and what is the crossover frequency?
I know there is plenty of low frequency material in surround channels (helicopters, bombs etc), so more low end extension is desirable.
If your system is using full range L/R and a sub (or multiple subs), how do you set your crossover? How much low frequency extension do you need from surround speakers if your subs are handling a lot of it?
I see 80 Hz as a crossover for a lot of system recommendations, but that seems high to me (low E string on a guitar). I think of bass more around 80 Hz down to 40 Hz (low E on bass guitar) and subsonic stuff below that.
If a main full range speaker is crossing over at 80 Hz with the sub, that frequency seems too high to me for both speakers. Obviously this depends on what main speakers and what subs.
Say we're talking about JBL M2's, Revel Salon2's etc paired with the right subs?
Say I wanted to add one sub (all that will fit in my living room) to my Revel F208's. What do you recommend? I'd love to get a JL Audio F112 (had a pair at work), but over my budget.
We watched "Arrival" a few nights ago and I felt the need for a sub. I have also been wanting to get a pair of Revel 763L's put in the ceiling to get 5.1 surround going again. Finally settled in the house and tired of living with just an L/C/R system. The F208's are great for 2 channel music listening and LCR is OK for TV, but Blu-Ray movies really need at least 5.1 which is all the room will accommodate.
Thanks for your insight.
No problem - thanks for asking! A couple of thoughts:
Actually, the center channel has just as much low end material as the left and rights - it's just a matter of sending that info to the subwoofer. Whatever is happening in the center of the screen gets mixed to the center channel - no matter if it's dialogue, an explosion, or a jet fighter. That's why it's so important to have a great center channel speaker, and why several on this thread lately have paired a set of F206 with a C208 center.
Personally, I am using 3 JBL LSR708is for LCR, with the center 708 lying horizontally (not ideal, but ok'd by Charles at JBL for my application). All three front speakers are crossed at 80 hz with my JBL S2S-EX subs, and it makes for a POTENT combo when listening to movies
You should appreciate this from a mixer's perspective. Here are a couple of actual movie mixes, with the tracks laid out L, R, C, LFE, LS, RS. You can see how much energy is actually in the center channel, way beyond "just dialogue":
STAR TREK 2009 (Enterprise goes to warp):
INDIANA JONES AND THE KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL (cliff chase):
In my case, I let Anthem's ARC set the crossovers, and it picked 80 hz for the LCR and all the side and rear surrounds, and 110 hz for my Revel C763L in-ceiling heights. Convenient that ARC picked the same crossover frequencies I would have picked myself
I am running 4 subs - 2 JBL S2S-EX subs in front, 2 JBL HTPS400 subs in back.
I talked to Kevin Voecks about using subs crossed over at 80 hz even with big towers like the Salon2s, and he is a big advocate. His argument is that freeing up the towers to handle everything above 80 hz will give you greater dynamics and ease for where the vast majority of content actually lives, and that a good quality sub - well blended with the towers / satellites - is far more capable of handling the dynamics of low frequency content found particularly in movies. So, you will get more impact with the sub(s) plus greater dynamics and clarity with the towers.
We've been playing with the Revel B112 sub and find it very capable. I know there are those that advocate all kinds on ID subs based on the value proposition, but I have found the Harman subs (JBL and Revel) to be tighter and punchier. That said, I haven't ever played with JL subs, and I know they are well regarded.
I don't blame someone for being skeptical about my advocacy for Harman subs since I'm a dealer, but most of the ID subs I've heard seem sloppy to me - lots of deep bass rumble but not much visceral impact. The JBL S2S-EX subs I recently purchased just seem so much more articulate and dynamic than the HSUs and Energys I've had in here before.