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post #9421 of 9442 Unread 02-22-2017, 08:48 PM
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Yep, my first Bryston was a 4B NRB and it was a great amp for the price, giant killer as they say. I'm pretty sure between my personal amps and ones I bought for work at my job, I had every version through SST2. I balked at the pricing on those, but love the sound, the build quality, the 20 year warranty so I stayed brand loyal. When I saw the Cubed series pricing I was glad I got an SST2 for a good price.

Bryston amps may still be good deals compared to Mark Levinson prices. I'd have to A/B them to see if I can hear the difference. Is a ML amp worth twice the price of a Bryston 4B3?
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post #9422 of 9442 Unread 02-22-2017, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by rsg_1 View Post
Basically, anything with a switching mode power supply and some sort of pulse width modulation is referred to as "digital" amplifier as it is over 90% efficient in operation. If you have feedback mechanisms to regulate the input pulse width modulation you can get some excellent performance. The downside is noise from switch mode power supplies, but newer designs put it over 20 KHz. The new Emotiva XPA Gen3 amps are Class H because of the improved switched power supply. With these switched power supplies, you get higher efficiency and less of the energy is lost as heat. A Class A amplifier will faithfully amplify the input signal as its transistor is always on. They are heavy because of the massive torroidal power supplies and heat sinks as they are always on. Mark Levinson Class A amps are a beast for good reason. It is a no compromise design as power, weight and price are not constraints in the design. Tube amps are often Class A in design, but they don't generate as much power, but the harmonics generated are wonderful if you are playing an electric guitar. I wouldn't use them for audio because they aren't a faithful reproduction of the recording. Opinions of course would vary.
Just to put a fine point on it, a Class D amp can have a linear power supply and many do like the AT5xNC series.
The main feature of a Class A amp is that each bank of transistors processes the entire sine wave. They don't really have to have a massive transformer but it good design as the transistors are always "on" and much of the power is lost via heat. In class A/B only half of the transistors are on at any one time. A/B can still have massive power supplies
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post #9423 of 9442 Unread 02-22-2017, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Bryston amps may still be good deals compared to Mark Levinson prices. I'd have to A/B them to see if I can hear the difference. Is a ML amp worth twice the price of a Bryston 4B3?
Bryston is certainly a good amp, but prices have gone up. Though some people have complained it is bright, but I've never heard that when used with Revel speakers. ML amps are way over designed and sometimes you can get good deals on used and B-stock. Whenever there are Revel demos of the Ultima Salons or Studios, they use ML amps as these speakers are power hungry and the ML amps don't hesitate. You may want to look at Classe amps too.
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post #9424 of 9442 Unread 02-23-2017, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
So far this is my plan to drive my Studio2s.
AT542NC.
Try a simple bi-amp configuration with one speaker (single blind test, if possible). Stacking banana connectors make this very easy.
That may help you decide how many channels to buy

- Rich

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post #9425 of 9442 Unread 02-23-2017, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Try a simple bi-amp configuration with one speaker (single blind test, if possible). Stacking banana connectors make this very easy.
That may help you decide how many channels to buy

- Rich
Yeah Rich, but 500 wpc seems pretty ample, no?
I do have a pair of Emotiva XPA-1L monoblocks that I have been using.
The gain difference between the Emos and the ATI is 1db.
Does that render bi-amping using these different amps moot?

 

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post #9426 of 9442 Unread 02-23-2017, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
Yeah Rich, but 500 wpc seems pretty ample, no?
I do have a pair of Emotiva XPA-1L monoblocks that I have been using.
The gain difference between the Emos and the ATI is 1db.
Does that render bi-amping using these different amps moot?
Only if you believe this is about power.
However, I have observered, SBT, and demonstated bi-amped improvements at relatively low levels (80 DB range) using the Salon1's, Salon2's, and Studio2's. There were differences in bass response but most of the improvement was in mid-range and high-end clarity.
I have heard improvements with using Parasound A21 and ATI AT6000 amps bi-amped.

In a very-quick test of the Benchmark AHB1, I heard no upper-end benefit bi-amped and preferred this amp bridged driving the Salon2's. Every review I have read about the AHB1 with the Salon2's recommends bridged for bass-response.

- Rich
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post #9427 of 9442 Unread 02-23-2017, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Only if you believe this is about power.
However, I have observered, SBT, and demonstated bi-amped improvements at relatively low levels (80 DB range) using the Salon1's, Salon2's, and Studio2's. There were differences in bass response but most of the improvement was in mid-range and high-end clarity.
I have heard improvements with using Parasound A21 and ATI AT6000 amps bi-amped.

In a very-quick test of the Benchmark AHB1, I heard no upper-end benefit bi-amped and preferred this amp bridged driving the Salon2's. Every review I have read about the AHB1 with the Salon2's recommends bridged for bass-response.

- Rich
I believe it is about power and frequency response.
I'll probably catch a ton of flack but in my experience adding a more powerful\capable amp is not only about SPL.
I've noticed improvements in detail and consistency across the frequency range when playing at lower SPL levels.
I didn't have to compensate for thin, recessed sound by using volume to pump everything up.

I'm hoping that by adding the ATI I will hear better sound & control from the mid-mid range down but hoping that bi-amping would improve from that point up.

 

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post #9428 of 9442 Unread 02-23-2017, 09:51 AM
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Switching and digital are not the same thing

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Originally Posted by rsg_1 View Post
(1) Basically, anything with a switching mode power supply and some sort of pulse width modulation is referred to as "digital" amplifier as it is over 90% efficient in operation. If you have feedback mechanisms to regulate the input pulse width modulation you can get some excellent performance. The downside is noise from switch mode power supplies, but newer designs put it over 20 KHz. (2)The new Emotiva XPA Gen3 amps are Class H because of the improved switched power supply. With these switched power supplies, you get higher efficiency and less of the energy is lost as heat. A Class A amplifier will faithfully amplify the input signal as its transistor is always on. They are heavy because of the massive torroidal power supplies and heat sinks as they are always on. Mark Levinson Class A amps are a beast for good reason. It is a no compromise design as power, weight and price are not constraints in the design. Tube amps are often Class A in design, but they don't generate as much power, but the harmonics generated are wonderful if you are playing an electric guitar. I wouldn't use them for audio because they aren't a faithful reproduction of the recording. Opinions of course would vary.
(1) First here is a definition of digital from Google:

Digital: (of signals or data) expressed as series of the digits 0 and 1, typically represented by values of a physical quantity such as voltage or magnetic polarization.

You are confusing switching with digital. They are two different concepts. You are also arbitrarily linking types of power supplies with output sections.

Here is a link to the Wikipedia entry on class-D amplifiers. Note the section on Terminology:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-D_amplifier

While a class-D amplifier is more efficient than a Class A/B amplifier the 90% efficiency measurement is at, or close to, full output which is not typical of use in the home. At typical outputs of a few watts the efficiency is much less than 90%, but still far better than a class A/B.

(2) The new Emotiva Gen 3 amplifier is a class-H amplifier. The output section of each amplifier module switches between two voltage rails depending on the load. Switching rails is why Emotiva has labeled the design as Class H, not the switching power supply. The Gen 3 uses a switched power supply which supplies these two different voltage rails. The previous generation of Emotiva amplifiers was also class-H, but used a linear power supply to provide these two rail voltages. The Emotiva units are called class-H due to the switching between two power supply rails. The nature of the power supply that provides these two power supplies is an independent question. Digital doesn't enter in to any of this. The output stage is not driven or controlled by binary numbers.
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post #9429 of 9442 Unread 02-23-2017, 10:45 AM
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^^^Thanks.

So my confusion comes from the fact that digital amplifiers are Class D, but - "While some class-D amps may indeed be controlled by digital circuits or include digital signal processing devices, the power stage deals with voltage and current as a function of non-quantized time. The smallest amount of noise, timing uncertainty, voltage ripple or any other non-ideality immediately results in an irreversible change of the output signal. The same errors in a digital system will only lead to incorrect results when they become so large that a signal representing a digit is distorted beyond recognition. Up to that point, non-idealities have no impact on the transmitted signal. Generally, digital signals are quantized in both amplitude and wavelength, while analog signals are quantized in one (e.g. PWM) or (usually) neither quantity."

Could you suggest what are true digital amplifiers that are quantized in amplitude and wavelength? I'm not aware of any that are common for driving speakers like the Revel. I do know that some powered speakers do have a digital amplifier. Or at least advertised as such.
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post #9430 of 9442 Unread 02-23-2017, 06:36 PM
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Concerta2

I'm in the middle of trying to figure out what speakers to go with for my upgrade. I have B&W speakers currently and was going to go with their CM series line, but they felt too bright for my main purpose of watching movies. After trying out a couple of other brands, I listened to the Revel Concerta2 M16 speakers and really liked them.

The problem is the audio shop didn't have the CM25 center channel to listen to, so the question is should I go ahead and place an order for the M16 pair and a CM25 center without having listened to the CM25 yet? Will the CM25 sound be similar enough to the M16 that it should provide a very similar sound experience?

Thanks for the help!
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I can tell you the M16s are excellent; bought them last month for rear surrounds for my Revel F206s at our 2nd residence ; running them now as fronts at main residence breaking them in
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post #9432 of 9442 Unread 02-23-2017, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmr View Post
I'm in the middle of trying to figure out what speakers to go with for my upgrade. I have B&W speakers currently and was going to go with their CM series line, but they felt too bright for my main purpose of watching movies. After trying out a couple of other brands, I listened to the Revel Concerta2 M16 speakers and really liked them.



The problem is the audio shop didn't have the CM25 center channel to listen to, so the question is should I go ahead and place an order for the M16 pair and a CM25 center without having listened to the CM25 yet? Will the CM25 sound be similar enough to the M16 that it should provide a very similar sound experience?



Thanks for the help!


Since you like the M16 theres no risk. The speakers are a match.

I purchased my m106 first then bought my f206 and c205 without testing. Mo regrets at all.


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post #9433 of 9442 Unread 02-23-2017, 08:46 PM
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Thanks, guys! Since I'm using the speakers for purely watching movies, I really like the full sound of the M16. My budget was $3,000 for this upgrade, and the M16's and CM25 will be about half the price, but they just had the best sound for my ears.
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Thanks, guys! Since I'm using the speakers for purely watching movies, I really like the full sound of the M16. My budget was $3,000 for this upgrade, and the M16's and CM25 will be about half the price, but they just had the best sound for my ears.


Then you did well. When I bought my f206, i was prepared to get the 208's so i hear you on that. Same for me, wasn't budget I just felt they were too big for the room.


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post #9435 of 9442 Unread Yesterday, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Shangri-La View Post
Can somebody comment on that? The F208 for example is rated 88.5dB/8ohms, which on paper at least isn't too bad at all. What is the required/recommended power to drive the F208?
I asked Kevin Voecks that exact question at CES last year, and he said 150 clean watts is a good place to start

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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmr View Post
I'm in the middle of trying to figure out what speakers to go with for my upgrade. I have B&W speakers currently and was going to go with their CM series line, but they felt too bright for my main purpose of watching movies. After trying out a couple of other brands, I listened to the Revel Concerta2 M16 speakers and really liked them.

The problem is the audio shop didn't have the CM25 center channel to listen to, so the question is should I go ahead and place an order for the M16 pair and a CM25 center without having listened to the CM25 yet? Will the CM25 sound be similar enough to the M16 that it should provide a very similar sound experience?

Thanks for the help!
Assume you mean C25 center

The whole Revel Concerta2 lineup is designed to play extremely nicely together. The C25 center is intended to be paired with the M16s, S16s, F35s, and F36s. The combo will give you an extremely coherent experience.

For that matter, it's pretty easy to mix and match Revel speakers throughout the all their product lines: Concerta2, Performa3, and Ultima2. As the folks at Revel / Harman will tell you, an accurate speaker is an accurate speaker. As you move up the Revel line you just get greater and greater levels of refinement. Recently a few people have paired the Performa3 C208 center with Concerta2 F36 towers with excellent results.

You should be happy to know that the Concerta2 series beat B&W during the double blind listening sessions in the MLL at Harman headquarters. I was actually there for one of the sessions All the speakers were precisely level matched and hidden behind an acoustically transparent screen, and the Revels were the favorite of 7 of the 8 people during the listening trials. The M16s were also tested against competing models from KEF and Monitor Audio during the same test. Interestingly, the Revel brand video was shot during this same testing period - you can see the M16 and the others in the test:

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Assume you mean C25 center
Whoops, yes I meant the C25. I've been looking at the B&W CM line so it must have slipped in because of that.

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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post

The whole Revel Concerta2 lineup is designed to play extremely nicely together. The C25 center is intended to be paired with the M16s, S16s, F35s, and F36s. The combo will give you an extremely coherent experience.

For that matter, it's pretty easy to mix and match Revel speakers throughout the all their product lines: Concerta2, Performa3, and Ultima2. As the folks at Revel / Harman will tell you, an accurate speaker is an accurate speaker. As you move up the Revel line you just get greater and greater levels of refinement. Recently a few people have paired the Performa3 C208 center with Concerta2 F36 towers with excellent results.

You should be happy to know that the Concerta2 series beat B&W during the double blind listening sessions in the MLL at Harman headquarters. I was actually there for one of the sessions All the speakers were precisely level matched and hidden behind an acoustically transparent screen, and the Revels were the favorite of 7 of the 8 people during the listening trials. The M16s were also tested against competing models from KEF and Monitor Audio during the same test. Interestingly, the Revel brand video was shot during this same testing period - you can see the M16 and the others in the test:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edtsqUpoHu8
That's very exciting to hear, thanks for sharing the information! I've got my M16 and C25 speakers ordered so they should be here for next Friday's family movie night.

Btw, random funny story. The Revel sales rep wrote down his phone number on a piece of paper along with speaker prices yesterday when I stopped into their shop, and when I called him today, he had messed up on the digits so I called some other guy. I mentioned that I had been in yesterday to look at the M16 speakers. Of course, this other guy heard M16 and got a little freaked out, saying he didn't sell M16 rifles. Hopefully I don't get a call from Homeland Security anytime soon.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmr View Post
That's very exciting to hear, thanks for sharing the information! I've got my M16 and C25 speakers ordered so they should be here for next Friday's family movie night.

Btw, random funny story. The Revel sales rep wrote down his phone number on a piece of paper along with speaker prices yesterday when I stopped into their shop, and when I called him today, he had messed up on the digits so I called some other guy. I mentioned that I had been in yesterday to look at the M16 speakers. Of course, this other guy heard M16 and got a little freaked out, saying he didn't sell M16 rifles. Hopefully I don't get a call from Homeland Security anytime soon.
That's cause the M16s "mow down" the competition. Ha.

Sorry, that was lame...

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I asked Kevin Voecks that exact question at CES last year, and he said 150 clean watts is a good place to start
Thank you. Hopefully the F208Be isn't more demanding in the power department!
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Thank you. Hopefully the F208Be isn't more demanding in the power department!


Will be alot more demanding on the wallet


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FYI, everyone, I will be participating in three different Home Theater Seminars in March, right here in Colorado. They are being sponsored by JBL Synthesis, Revel, JVC, and Stewart Filmscreen, and special guests are Kris Deering (Sound and Vision Technical Editor / Lead Writer and Forum Contributor), Gregg Loewen (THX Video Standards Worldwide Instructor and calibrator), Chris Deutsch (National Sales Trainer - JVC Projectors), and Robert Keeler (VP of Sales, Product Trainer for Stewart Filmscreen). Brad Waite and I will be presenting as well. These are educational seminars, NOT sales events, so AVS has kindly allowed me to post about them. Scott Wilkinson wrote up a post here:

http://www.avsforum.com/home-theater...orado-springs/

It's directly pertinent to this thread, since our plans right now are to set up and demo:

Revel F208
Revel C208
Revel M106
Revel C763L


Plus some pieces from JBL Synthesis, which are related to Revel gear:

JBL M2
JBL LSR708
JBL S2S-EX subs
JBL Synthesis Amps (SDA4600 / SDA8300)


Plus of course we will have screens from Stewart and projectors from JVC (including the new THX certified RS4500 True 4K laser projector). Registration is free thru Tuesday the 28th. Seminar dates are March 11th and 12th, Denver, and March 18th Colorado Springs at the Marriott Tech Center and Colorado Springs Marriott, respectively.

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Originally Posted by rsg_1 View Post
^^^Thanks.

So my confusion comes from the fact that digital amplifiers are Class D, but - "While some class-D amps may indeed be controlled by digital circuits or include digital signal processing devices, the power stage deals with voltage and current as a function of non-quantized time. The smallest amount of noise, timing uncertainty, voltage ripple or any other non-ideality immediately results in an irreversible change of the output signal. The same errors in a digital system will only lead to incorrect results when they become so large that a signal representing a digit is distorted beyond recognition. Up to that point, non-idealities have no impact on the transmitted signal. Generally, digital signals are quantized in both amplitude and wavelength, while analog signals are quantized in one (e.g. PWM) or (usually) neither quantity."

Could you suggest what are true digital amplifiers that are quantized in amplitude and wavelength? I'm not aware of any that are common for driving speakers like the Revel. I do know that some powered speakers do have a digital amplifier. Or at least advertised as such.
Frankly you are throwing together a set of technical terms that either don't make sense, or are wrong in the way you are using them. The underlined sentences in particular doesn't make sense from a technical standpoint, so let's begin again...

From Wikipedia:

Digital: (of signals or data)expressed as series of the digits 0 and 1, typically represented by values of a physical quantity such as voltage or magnetic polarization.

This means binary numbers; 0's and 1's. Just because a device uses pulses, even if the pulses are varying widths, doesn't mean it's digital. Every switching power supply would qualify if that were the case.

I'm not sure why you are looking to brand amplifiers as digital. Do you think that somehow that inherently would make it a better product? Why?? No doubt marketing people label products "digital" to sell the products, that is, they are tying to fool you, just as they label half the products "green" whatever that means. Quoting marketing people has no, zero credibility unless they provide technical backup from valid sources.

At most a "digital" amplifier is doing some digital processing, like filtering, then has a DAC, and then an amplifier. All of this may be on chip. The chip may take in a digital signal and put out an analog signal to the driver, but on the chip the amplification is likely class-D, which isn't digital amplification, as described in the Wikipedia link below. I believe JBL is using some of TI's single chip amplifiers in products like the LSR305 for example. The are quite remarkable products. If you want to call a chip that takes in a digital signal and puts out an amplified analog signal a "digital amplifier" then you are good to go. You could just call a combination of a stand alone DAC connected to an analog class-A/B amplifier a "component digital amplifier" if you want.

Loudspeaker drivers don't understand digital numbers like 101 base2 which is 5 in base10. You just can't send 101 to speaker driver and expect much in return, and if you do, it won't sound good.

Wikipedia has a good explanation of Class-D amplifiers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-D_amplifier

I suggest you actually read it a couple times. Note that at one point it specifically says that class-D amplifiers aren't digital.
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