Revel Owners Thread - Page 318 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9511 of 9540 Old 03-13-2017, 03:52 PM
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So waiting in anticipation to get the whole housing for the tweeter I decided to take a close look at the tweeter (diaphragm) they sent. I'm not sure if they gave me the diaphragm of a different speaker all together because the ones currently in the speaker are smooth and the ones they sent look like a different material, almost cloth-like. My question would be if they changed the tweeter over the past 3 years? I remember reading something about an issue way back when.
Hard to tell definitively from the photos but the one without the wave guide does not look metallic to me.
I think it's a pretty safe assumption that you were sent the wrong driver.

As far as the mid-range being stuck, there could be a gasket between the driver and the baffle inset.
And as others have advised, getting tool with a right angle and working against the baffle through the screw hole has worked for me.
If you have a small flat head screw driver that works well too and spreads out pressure baffle and the driver frame.
One other tip, when you're ready to screw in the new driver, make sure to seat and start the screw with your fingers.
Turn it counter clockwise so the leading edge of the thread on the screww finds the existing thread groove in the baffle
Don't want to cross-threads.

I don't know if Revel uses threaded metal inserts or just the wood baffle.
Thank you
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post #9512 of 9540 Old 03-13-2017, 07:21 PM
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Thanks John!

Still trying to decide exactly what I want to do... it's a basement / rec room and will definitely be shared with toddlers for the foreseeable future. I have an Anthem MRX 310 with the above-listed Revel speakers from a prior room and I would like to get another L/C/R setup going again soon for tv/cartoons/movies/occasional dire straits listening session.

I think I'll mount the tv on the wall and do some sort of in-wall speaker option. I really enjoyed my M106 in stereo but they're not suitable for this application so my next thought was to check which Revel Architectural series was most similar and go from there.

Any thoughts or insights would definitely be appreciated. Especially about the open-back nature of the wall - it's completely open to a utility room. How does an in wall speaker deal with nearly infinite box volume?
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post #9513 of 9540 Old 03-15-2017, 11:22 AM
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Thanks John!

Still trying to decide exactly what I want to do... it's a basement / rec room and will definitely be shared with toddlers for the foreseeable future. I have an Anthem MRX 310 with the above-listed Revel speakers from a prior room and I would like to get another L/C/R setup going again soon for tv/cartoons/movies/occasional dire straits listening session.

I think I'll mount the tv on the wall and do some sort of in-wall speaker option. I really enjoyed my M106 in stereo but they're not suitable for this application so my next thought was to check which Revel Architectural series was most similar and go from there.

Any thoughts or insights would definitely be appreciated. Especially about the open-back nature of the wall - it's completely open to a utility room. How does an in wall speaker deal with nearly infinite box volume?
Not 100% sure. I would finish the back of the wall section and fill the stud bay with insulation.
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post #9514 of 9540 Old 03-15-2017, 11:50 AM
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FYI, still stick with my original recommendation:

The Revel 5 and 7 Architectural series most closely match the Performa3 box speakers. I've done quite a few systems with W783s LCR (assuming all can be oriented vertically) or W553Ls if you need to turn the center speaker on its side.

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post #9515 of 9540 Old 03-15-2017, 11:57 AM
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For anyone in this thread that attended our Denver Home Theater Seminar - sincere thanks! And for those of you who missed the educational event don't forget that we have an additional seminar planned for this Saturday, March 18, in Colorado Springs. While the overall seminar schedule will be the same, we will have the full Revel F208 / C208 / M106 surround system plus the JBL M2 / LSR708i / S2S-EX / C763L Atmos system in the same room, along with the JVC DLA-RS4500 and DLA-RS620 JVC projectors and screens from Stewart. The Colorado Springs event will be from 1-6 pm at the Colorado Springs Marriott, 5580 Tech Center Dr, Colorado Springs, CO 80919. Chris Deutsch from JVC and Gregg Loewen from THX will be special presenters.

For anyone who attended the Denver event on Saturday, we'd like to invite you back to the Colorado Springs event at no charge. We found out after checking a few sound anomalies during our Saturday session that the JBL M2 Master Studio Reference Monitors and S2S-EX subwoofers were mis-calibrated. If you’d like another chance to audition these amazing speakers, please feel free to attend our Colorado Springs event this Saturday. Again, not a sales event - this is educational only.

Again, thanks to AVS and Scott Wilkinson for letting us post about these seminars! Scott created a link about it here:

http://www.avsforum.com/home-theater...orado-springs/
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post #9516 of 9540 Old 03-18-2017, 04:40 PM
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Okay. Re-installed the tweeter and midrange today. The speakers now play so they were blown. Got the XPA 3 sent out for warranty. Just running the Marantz (no power). They sound good but it's almost like they want to sound better. They don't sound the same. My dealer said even with his 50k speakers that they sounded horrible until they broke in. I'm just worried that the crossovers were affected. Only time will tell, I guess.
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post #9517 of 9540 Old 03-18-2017, 06:26 PM
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My opinion - the Marantz has more features, the Anthem has far better room correction. ARC will let you specify the cutoff for room EQ, where Audyssey forces you to EQ above the Schroeder (transition) frequency. That means Audyssey will try and EQ the speaker, which - in the case of Revel - you definitely DON'T want. Lots of discussion about this in the M2 and Synthesis threads. Most of us using the Anthem set the cutoff frequency to about 500 hz so the pre-pro is just taming room modes and leaves everything above 500 hz alone. Harman strongly recommends against any auto EQ above transition / Schroeder.

Good explanation of Schroeder here:

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...LY10V2QdCEk.97

Other than that, it's a matter of features. I've had both in my system and greatly prefer ARC over Audyssey not only in terms of room EQ, but in how well it blends satellite and subwoofer.
I will second the Anthem ARC. It is the primary reason I choose Anthem, and it makes a huge difference.

I use my Anthem 310 as a preamp for Magnepan 3.6 (large planars) and a subwoofer. The correction is excellent and psychoacoustically correct, and it integrates a subwoofer with the Maggies amazingly well, which is always known to be difficult to do with large planars. In addition the ARC also addresses successfully a weak spot of the Magnepans, which is what people would call bass "dynamics" where conventional speakers are said to be better. And none of the good parts of the maggie are ruined.

I limit my correction to 1500Hz. I liked it better than 5000Hz and 500 Hz.

The room/speaker correction algorithms are definitely NOT all the same, and they make a very large difference.

+2 on Anthem ARC. Only downside is that you need a Windows computer. I got a cheap one on Craigslist.
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post #9518 of 9540 Old 03-19-2017, 06:31 AM
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Okay. Re-installed the tweeter and midrange today. The speakers now play so they were blown. Got the XPA 3 sent out for warranty. Just running the Marantz (no power). They sound good but it's almost like they want to sound better. They don't sound the same. My dealer said even with his 50k speakers that they sounded horrible until they broke in. I'm just worried that the crossovers were affected. Only time will tell, I guess.
Now after surgery I realized the F208s are needing a serious cleaning. I have only previously used a microfiber cloth (no liquids or waxes) and maybe a light vacuuming to get the dust away from them. Anyone have any thoughts of what works the best?
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post #9519 of 9540 Old 03-19-2017, 09:40 AM
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The owners manual should come with cleaning instructions, using the wrong stuff can damage the finish.

Revel ultima salon loudspeakers
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post #9520 of 9540 Old 03-19-2017, 11:33 AM
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The owners manual should come with cleaning instructions, using the wrong stuff can damage the finish.
Lookin it up. Thank you.

While in the rebuild stage of my system I am contemplating a power conditioner/ surge protector. I've been using a cheapy. Looking at A Panamax 11 outlet. I've asked a few people and the answer I get is that it's not a bad idea or that I don't really need it. My eventful setup will be 3 monoblocks and a processor (undetermined yet). As I've previously stated, I'm trying rebuild the right way. Is this a must have or should I put it in somewhere in the future?
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post #9521 of 9540 Old 03-19-2017, 12:31 PM
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Lookin it up. Thank you.

While in the rebuild stage of my system I am contemplating a power conditioner/ surge protector. I've been using a cheapy. Looking at A Panamax 11 outlet. I've asked a few people and the answer I get is that it's not a bad idea or that I don't really need it. My eventful setup will be 3 monoblocks and a processor (undetermined yet). As I've previously stated, I'm trying rebuild the right way. Is this a must have or should I put it in somewhere in the future?
I see you are in FL, you have storms. So I would say yes a good surge protector is a must have. Take a look at SurgeX or Furman, there are many others out there some are crazy stupid money in the thousands. Stay away from cheep power strips from Home Depot etc. Do your research and see what best fits your needs and price range.
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post #9522 of 9540 Old 03-19-2017, 01:00 PM
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^ A whole house surge protector that mounts to the main panel is an option to consider if you own the house.
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post #9523 of 9540 Old 03-20-2017, 03:25 AM
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^ A whole house surge protector that mounts to the main panel is an option to consider if you own the house.
Yeah raining season FL is rough. I lost my last plasma TV to a lightening strike last year. The HDMI port was fried. I will definitely look into the whole house protection as it seems like a good option. Thanks
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post #9524 of 9540 Old 03-20-2017, 04:05 AM
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Dear Revel Colleagues:

I'm a music lover and I have very little knowledge about how to manipulate the numbers associated with our hobby. My Revel Ultima Salon 2s sound great to me but I'd like to have one question answered. I use an Ayre V5xe to drive the speakers, the Ayre is rated at 150 watt continuous into 8 ohms and 300 watts continuous into 4 ohms. What does that all mean, given the fact that the Revels are rated at 6 ohms? Would my amp's power output be somewhere between 150 and 300 watts per channel or . . .?

My second question relates to the fact that, in my kitchen, I have a pair of, almost 40 year-old, Rogers LS3/5A connected to the Ayre. I think that the Rogers are rated at 15 ohms. Considering my amps capabilities, I s this a goog or bad mix of impedance (6 and 15 ohm). Do I risk damaging anything?

Thanks for your time.
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post #9525 of 9540 Old 03-20-2017, 09:25 AM
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You are correct, your power amp's maximum wattage is based on the load impedance it is driving. If you look at the impedance curve of the Salon 2's, it averages around 6 ohms, but that is not a steady state number, it varies with frequency. The amp will be able to produce somewhere between 150 and 300 watts depending on the load impedance.

The disturbing question in your post is, do you have both sets of speakers (the Salons and the Rogers) connected to your amp at the same time?

If so, IMO, you should get a separate amp to drive the Rogers. They make speaker switch boxes to deal with multiple pairs of speakers being driven by the same amp, but they are a compromise.

With a speaker the quality of the Salon 2, you should not compromise the amp driving them.

Ohm's law deals with how resistance adds in series or parallel. Running the Salons and the Rogers at the same time from the same amp could present a low impedance to your amp which is not a good idea for the amp or the speakers.

If your Roger's are around 15 ohms average, an Ohm's law calculator show 6 ohms in parallel with 15 ohms equals about a 4 ohm load to your amp.

Not dangerously low, but not an ideal situation. More important is, the second pair of speakers draws a percentage of power from the amp meaning you aren't getting full power capability to the Salons.

https://geoffthegreygeek.com/calcula...s-in-parallel/
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post #9526 of 9540 Old 03-20-2017, 04:57 PM
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^^^^ Totally agree with Rex. The Salons are notoriously power hungry - make sure you have an amp up to the task

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post #9527 of 9540 Old 03-20-2017, 04:59 PM
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^^^^ Totally agree with Rex. The Salons are notoriously power hungry - make sure you have an amp up to the task
...or 2 amps, or 4 channels in some number of amps, and maybe even 20 amps behind the amps.

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post #9528 of 9540 Old 03-20-2017, 11:16 PM
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I know this is a touchy subject but I gotta ask. Wires: is it better to have bi-wired cables at 14 awg or a regular set of wires at 12 awg? I know there won't be a sound advantage but is there a reason to pick one over the other?
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post #9529 of 9540 Old 03-21-2017, 05:31 AM
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I know this is a touchy subject but I gotta ask. Wires: is it better to have bi-wired cables at 14 awg or a regular set of wires at 12 awg? I know there won't be a sound advantage but is there a reason to pick one over the other?
I bi-amp with BlueJeans cable 10 AWG cables. There was a post by John Schuermann quoting Revel that did not recommend bi-wiring. So, one wire per amp channel; lower AWG is better.

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post #9530 of 9540 Old 03-21-2017, 07:08 AM
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John Schuermann stated (I think somewhere earlier in this thread) that he does not think bi-wiring offers any benefit and I agree.

If you have short runs (like under 10 feet per side), you can get by with 14 gauge. Longer runs require lower gauge (more copper) wire.

I use Canare 4S11 (http://www.canare.com/UploadedDocume...er%20Cable.pdf) I got from Blue Jeans Cable. Effective gauge when combining two 14 gauge wires is 11 gauge. My runs are 6' per side.
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post #9531 of 9540 Old 03-21-2017, 12:46 PM
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Just looking at resistance:

14 AWG = 2.525 ohms/foot (so two in parallel -- not biwired -- is 1.2625 ohms)
12 AWG = 1.588 ohms/foot
10 AWG = 0.9989 ohms/foot

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

A single 10 AWG run is better than even paralleled 14 AWG, and a single 12 AWG run is just a little worse than doubled 14 AWG but only one wire to run.
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post #9532 of 9540 Old 03-21-2017, 04:02 PM
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Great info on wires! Now I've got a question on the F208s. Now that I've replaced the the tweeter and mids on both speakers the next thing to go would be the crossovers. How would I be able to tell whether or or not they were effected? Is it something that diminishes over time or would the just not work?
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post #9533 of 9540 Old 03-21-2017, 04:34 PM
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I found a crossover problem by using band limited pink noise. If the crossover is not working properly, a band of pink noise that is limited to where each driver should be operating will only come from that driver (or set of drivers).

For instance, crossover frequencies on the F208 are 270 Hz and 2.2 kHz. It is a 3 way system. The two woofers handle bass from 20 Hz to 270 Hz, the midrange driver handles from 270 Hz to 2.2 kHz and the tweeter handles from 2.2 kHz up to 20 kHz.

If you feed a band of pink noise that is limited to 40-80 Hz and it is passing to the midrange driver or the tweeter, the crossover is not doing it's job.

You could also use a sine wave sweep tone from 20 Hz to 20 kHz and listen to see if the drivers seem to hand off the sweep as it rises in frequency.

Find a test disc with test tones and band limited pink noise, a sine wave sweep tone or a sine wave oscillator that you can manually sweep. Be careful to protect the drivers and your ears.

If you are playing music that has a broad spectral balance (info from 20 Hz to 20 kHz) and you hear distortion in the midrange driver or tweeter, good bet it's a crossover problem.

Other thing to do is a visual inspection of the crossover boards to see if the board has burned traces or any of the components look burned. Past that, it's component level troubleshooting (test capacitors, resistors etc).

Why didn't you send the speakers back to Revel for a thorough repair? You may never know if your speakers are operating as they should. Revel would have replaced drivers and made sure the speaker as a whole meets spec.

They have specs each speaker needs to meet compared to the original design parameters which are very stringent. Every speaker goes through a series of tests to insure it meets spec before it gets sold.
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post #9534 of 9540 Old 03-21-2017, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
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I found a crossover problem by using band limited pink noise. If the crossover is not working properly, a band of pink noise that is limited to where each driver should be operating will only come from that driver (or set of drivers).

For instance, crossover frequencies on the F208 are 270 Hz and 2.2 kHz. It is a 3 way system. The two woofers handle bass from 20 Hz to 270 Hz, the midrange driver handles from 270 Hz to 2.2 kHz and the tweeter handles from 2.2 kHz up to 20 kHz.

If you feed a band of pink noise that is limited to 40-80 Hz and it is passing to the midrange driver or the tweeter, the crossover is not doing it's job.

You could also use a sine wave sweep tone from 20 Hz to 20 kHz and listen to see if the drivers seem to hand off the sweep as it rises in frequency.

Find a test disc with test tones and band limited pink noise, a sine wave sweep tone or a sine wave oscillator that you can manually sweep. Be careful to protect the drivers and your ears.

If you are playing music that has a broad spectral balance (info from 20 Hz to 20 kHz) and you hear distortion in the midrange driver or tweeter, good bet it's a crossover problem.

Other thing to do is a visual inspection of the crossover boards to see if the board has burned traces or any of the components look burned. Past that, it's component level troubleshooting (test capacitors, resistors etc).

Why didn't you send the speakers back to Revel for a thorough repair? You may never know if your speakers are operating as they should. Revel would have replaced drivers and made sure the speaker as a whole meets spec.

They have specs each speaker needs to meet compared to the original design parameters which are very stringent. Every speaker goes through a series of tests to insure it meets spec before it gets sold.
Revel said it's not a warranty issue and my dealer said it'd be cheaper if I did it.
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post #9535 of 9540 Old 03-21-2017, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
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I found a crossover problem by using band limited pink noise. If the crossover is not working properly, a band of pink noise that is limited to where each driver should be operating will only come from that driver (or set of drivers).

For instance, crossover frequencies on the F208 are 270 Hz and 2.2 kHz. It is a 3 way system. The two woofers handle bass from 20 Hz to 270 Hz, the midrange driver handles from 270 Hz to 2.2 kHz and the tweeter handles from 2.2 kHz up to 20 kHz.

If you feed a band of pink noise that is limited to 40-80 Hz and it is passing to the midrange driver or the tweeter, the crossover is not doing it's job.

You could also use a sine wave sweep tone from 20 Hz to 20 kHz and listen to see if the drivers seem to hand off the sweep as it rises in frequency.

Find a test disc with test tones and band limited pink noise, a sine wave sweep tone or a sine wave oscillator that you can manually sweep. Be careful to protect the drivers and your ears.

If you are playing music that has a broad spectral balance (info from 20 Hz to 20 kHz) and you hear distortion in the midrange driver or tweeter, good bet it's a crossover problem.

Other thing to do is a visual inspection of the crossover boards to see if the board has burned traces or any of the components look burned. Past that, it's component level troubleshooting (test capacitors, resistors etc).

Why didn't you send the speakers back to Revel for a thorough repair? You may never know if your speakers are operating as they should. Revel would have replaced drivers and made sure the speaker as a whole meets spec.

They have specs each speaker needs to meet compared to the original design parameters which are very stringent. Every speaker goes through a series of tests to insure it meets spec before it gets sold.
Revel said it's not a warranty issue and my dealer said it'd be cheaper if I did it.
My dealer also said if I replace the speaker, it'll be a brand new speaker for the most part. Just not sure how involved it is to replace them.
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post #9536 of 9540 Old Yesterday, 04:52 AM
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Somewhere I saw CAD drawings of the internal layout of the F208s. Revel uses multiple crossover boards (one for bass to mid and one for mid to high) located close to the drivers.

You should contact Revel to get those drawings and instructions on how to replace the crossover boards. Not sure of the cost to do 2 crossovers on 2 speakers, i.e 4 crossover boards.
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post #9537 of 9540 Old Yesterday, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Just looking at resistance:

14 AWG = 2.525 ohms/foot (so two in parallel -- not biwired -- is 1.2625 ohms)
12 AWG = 1.588 ohms/foot
10 AWG = 0.9989 ohms/foot

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

A single 10 AWG run is better than even paralleled 14 AWG, and a single 12 AWG run is just a little worse than doubled 14 AWG but only one wire to run.
Just to clarify

Resistance is specified in little "m" as a prefix.
To me that means milli-ohms, (1milli-ohm = 0.001 ohm)

Here's a calculator.

https://www.cirris.com/learning-cent...lculator-table

Thanks for the info. Interesting thing about doubling smaller gauge run vs larger/single run.
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Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
Just to clarify

Resistance is specified in little "m" as a prefix.
To me that means milli-ohms, (1milli-ohm = 0.001 ohm)

Here's a calculator.

https://www.cirris.com/learning-cent...lculator-table

Thanks for the info. Interesting thing about doubling smaller gauge run vs larger/single run.
Yes, those figures are milli-ohms per foot (that's one one thousandth of an ohm). We would be in real trouble if 10 feet of wire had 10 ohms of resistance in line with our 8 ohm loudspeakers.

Bottom line is, you don't need to worry too much about wire gauge if you keep it lower than 16 gauge and have short runs.

Pro sound guys run 100 feet of cable for PA systems using 10 or 12 gauge cable with no worries about losing power.

I just worked a gig last week setting up a conference in a huge ballroom and ran 100 foot cables from a Lab Gruppen amp to JBL VRX 900 series speakers. It sounded amazing.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRIPTON80 View Post
I know this is a touchy subject but I gotta ask. Wires: is it better to have bi-wired cables at 14 awg or a regular set of wires at 12 awg? I know there won't be a sound advantage but is there a reason to pick one over the other?
I bi-amp with BlueJeans cable 10 AWG cables. There was a post by John Schuermann quoting Revel that did not recommend bi-wiring. So, one wire per amp channel; lower AWG is better.

- Rich
This question is for the wife. Did you go with the white or gray and does the wire have the writing on the jacket that looks kinda industrial?
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Originally Posted by TRIPTON80 View Post
Great info on wires! Now I've got a question on the F208s. Now that I've replaced the the tweeter and mids on both speakers the next thing to go would be the crossovers. How would I be able to tell whether or or not they were effected? Is it something that diminishes over time or would the just not work?
Talked to Revel yesterday about whether or not I should mess with the crossovers. They said that the crossovers rarely have any issues and they do not recommend getting at them unless I hear anything that's warrants the procedure.
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