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post #9721 of 9810 Old 05-31-2017, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
The 4" midrange used in the orignal Voice and Salon series will eventuall fail and cost about $300 for the parts.
I can't speak to the sound, but I would get the C208 to match the speakers and be up-to-date.


- Rich
The midrange is known to fail in those speakers? What specifically failed, for my own curiosity?
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post #9722 of 9810 Old 05-31-2017, 11:18 AM
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The midrange is known to fail in those speakers? What specifically failed, for my own curiosity?

Something with the glue deteriorating. The Voice went scratchy and you could feel and hear it scratch when pushed in and out.

Later the Salon Right channel sounded off with some content but it had not reaced the scratchy level.

Here are some measurements of a bad (right) and good (left).
Those harmonics are down 60 DB but I had no trouble hearing them during content but the tones helped identify the offending driver.

In the end, I replaced all 3 midrange drivers in the Salons and Voice.
A couple of years later, a great deal came along on the Salon2s, Voice2, and Studio2s. Thanks @SteveH

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post #9723 of 9810 Old 05-31-2017, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steven1110 View Post
The midrange is known to fail in those speakers? What specifically failed, for my own curiosity?

Something with the glue deteriorating. The Voice went scratchy and you could feel and hear it scratch when pushed in and out.

Later the Salon Right channel sounded off with some content but it had not reaced the scratchy level.

Here are some measurements of a bad (right) and good (left).
Those harmonics are down 60 DB but I had no trouble hearing them during content but the tones helped identify the offending driver.

In the end, I replaced all 3 midrange drivers in the Salons and Voice.
A couple of years later, a great deal came along on the Salon2s, Voice2, and Studio2s. Thanks @SteveH

- Rich
How long did the original drivers last before becoming damaged? We're they driven fairly hard? Were the replacements the same driver or did Revel retool it knowing the glue was to blame? Did the new drivers hold up?
Sorry for the questions but I'm just trying to understand the situation?.
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post #9724 of 9810 Old 05-31-2017, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by steven1110 View Post
How long did the original drivers last before becoming damaged? We're they driven fairly hard? Were the replacements the same driver or did Revel retool it knowing the glue was to blame? Did the new drivers hold up?
Sorry for the questions but I'm just trying to understand the situation?.
Mine lasted for 10 years or so. Consider calling Revel support if you want more information.
Also consider buying a C208

- Rich

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post #9725 of 9810 Old 05-31-2017, 01:56 PM
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I hopefully have an easy question for the group. I have a pair of F208's and am looking to grab a center channel in the near future. I've been eyeing the C208, but I may have an opportunity to pick up an original Ultima Voice at a decent price. What would be the recommendation on which speaker to get? Get the series match C208 or the higher line Voice? Would the speaker voicing between the speakers be dramatic if I opted for the Voice?
Have not heard the original Voice, so can't comment specifically. Obviously the C208 would have the same tweeter as the F208s and is specifically designed to blend with your towers. However, all Revel speakers mix and match well Unfortunately, the original Ultimas were before my time so I've had no experience with them.

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post #9726 of 9810 Old 05-31-2017, 05:34 PM
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I would go with the C208 because it is a perfect match for the F208s in both speaker design (same drivers, crossover, cabinet, wave guide etc) and aesthetic.

The Ultima Voice is much older technology, no wave guide etc.
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post #9727 of 9810 Old 05-31-2017, 06:54 PM
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Thanks for the replies all. I'm likely going with the C208 but having the higher series channel still intrigues me. Do drop me a PM if you happen to have info on where to purchase a used C208.
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post #9728 of 9810 Old 06-01-2017, 08:19 AM
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Thanks for the replies all. I'm likely going with the C208 but having the higher series channel still intrigues me. Do drop me a PM if you happen to have info on where to purchase a used C208.

Two folks come to mind @John Schuermann and @SteveH .

- Rich

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post #9729 of 9810 Old 06-01-2017, 08:38 AM
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The ultima voice is BIG, i'm selling mine because it doesn't fit in the tv stand, the model I have with the aluminum panels weighs 75 lbs! as for sound quality? every time I upgrade the source the sound gets better as in LIVE. As the waveguide goes my f52's had waveguide tweeters in them but they weren't of the quality of the salon1 and I had them side by side. If you have a chance to hear them you should, that said the c208 is no slouch!

Revel ultima salon loudspeakers
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post #9730 of 9810 Old 06-01-2017, 08:56 AM
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For that matter, the C208 is big too Always a good idea to check your space.
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post #9731 of 9810 Old 06-01-2017, 10:18 AM
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I have probably asked this before but would to hear from guys that upgraded from the salon 1 to the salon 2 if the salon2 were as forgiving of source components as the 1's were? The fact that the salon1 were so musical with the affordable gear I use is probably my favorite thing about them and if upgrading to the ultima salon 2 meant having to upgrade the entire signal path I probably could remain content with what I have. tks

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post #9732 of 9810 Old 06-01-2017, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by steven59 View Post
I have probably asked this before but would to hear from guys that upgraded from the salon 1 to the salon 2 if the salon2 were as forgiving of source components as the 1's were? The fact that the salon1 were so musical with the affordable gear I use is probably my favorite thing about them and if upgrading to the ultima salon 2 meant having to upgrade the entire signal path I probably could remain content with what I have. tks
IMO, the Salon2's are more accurate and behave like a single source. The Salon1 tweeter had some glare off angle which was recognizable in my room. The Salon2's have better off access performance.

The Voice2 is amazing and a significant improvement as well.

- Rich

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post #9733 of 9810 Old 06-01-2017, 12:32 PM
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What is the stand like on the Voice2? I am debating ordering the stand, mainly because I have yet to decide how to place the center (won't fit the current space), but it's a pricey little bugger.

Assuming I like the Salon2's (TBD, have to get them in and set up first), I may switch to Revel surrounds as well. The Gem2's were recommended (by John), but are pretty expensive for surrounds (and rears, need four of them), so have people compared them to M106's and M16's for surround duty? One catch for me is that, in my room, the Gem2's are a much better fit size-wise. My current surrounds are Magnepan MC-1's on stand tucked next to the wall. They are working very well for me but I suspect I'll want better matching with the front LCR speakers. I have space for larger rears (like M106/M16 bookshelf speakers) but not really on the sides (where the slim profile of the Gem2's is a big advantage).

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post #9734 of 9810 Old 06-01-2017, 01:10 PM
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What is the stand like on the Voice2? I am debating ordering the stand, mainly because I have yet to decide how to place the center (won't fit the current space), but it's a pricey little bugger.

Assuming I like the Salon2's (TBD, have to get them in and set up first), I may switch to Revel surrounds as well. The Gem2's were recommended (by John), but are pretty expensive for surrounds (and rears, need four of them), so have people compared them to M106's and M16's for surround duty? One catch for me is that, in my room, the Gem2's are a much better fit size-wise. My current surrounds are Magnepan MC-1's on stand tucked next to the wall. They are working very well for me but I suspect I'll want better matching with the front LCR speakers. I have space for larger rears (like M106/M16 bookshelf speakers) but not really on the sides (where the slim profile of the Gem2's is a big advantage).

Thanks - Don
My Friend uses the stand placed under his wall-mounted display and it looks great there.
I Rube-Golberged the stand and attached to a heavy-duty omni-mount (no longer made) to mount it above the display.

I like it up there

- Rich
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post #9735 of 9810 Old 06-01-2017, 01:23 PM
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I'm thinking of using a JBL LSR 705P (small but mighty) as a center channel between my Revel F208's.

Since we have some questions happening now about centers and surrounds, maybe @JohnSchuermann could comment on mixing and matching the two brands.

Perhaps it's not aesthetically ideal, but the LSR 7 P series looks like a good way to handle center and surround duties without having to get more amp channels.

A JBL 705P could substitute for a Revel C208 and an amp to drive it and have a much smaller footprint, plus vertical vs horizontal.

And JBL LSR 708P's could replace Revel Gem2's and the amp necessary to drive them too.

Obviously, if the Revels and JBL's don't integrate well, it's a bad idea.

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post #9736 of 9810 Old 06-01-2017, 03:18 PM
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Two folks come to mind @John Schuermann and @SteveH .
Agreed, definitely check with them; they're both excellent.

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What is the stand like on the Voice2? I am debating ordering the stand, mainly because I have yet to decide how to place the center (won't fit the current space), but it's a pricey little bugger.
The stand is actually pretty nice. If you have some specific questions we may be able to give you better advice.

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Assuming I like the Salon2's (TBD, have to get them in and set up first), I may switch to Revel surrounds as well. The Gem2's were recommended (by John), but are pretty expensive for surrounds (and rears, need four of them), so have people compared them to M106's and M16's for surround duty? One catch for me is that, in my room, the Gem2's are a much better fit size-wise. My current surrounds are Magnepan MC-1's on stand tucked next to the wall. They are working very well for me but I suspect I'll want better matching with the front LCR speakers. I have space for larger rears (like M106/M16 bookshelf speakers) but not really on the sides (where the slim profile of the Gem2's is a big advantage).
The Gem2's are very nice speakers, BUT if using them with the floor stands, they take up nearly as much space as Salon2's or Studio2's and mounting the speaker cables is a bit of an adventure. So I ended up going with 6 Salon2's (and selling the pair of Gem2's and stands I had already purchased) as I got a deal I just couldn't pass up.
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post #9737 of 9810 Old 06-01-2017, 04:44 PM
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Thanks for the replies all. I'm likely going with the C208 but having the higher series channel still intrigues me. Do drop me a PM if you happen to have info on where to purchase a used C208.
Just got this from Principal Engineer Mark Glazer at Revel, who designed both speakers:

The C208 would be a much better match for the F208. The matching tweeter/waveguide gives a closer balance to the F208, and the drivers in the C208 are better (newer engineering-lower distortion) that the Voice1.
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post #9738 of 9810 Old 06-01-2017, 06:37 PM
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Just got this from Principal Engineer Mark Glazer at Revel, who designed both speakers:

The C208 would be a much better match for the F208. The matching tweeter/waveguide gives a closer balance to the F208, and the drivers in the C208 are better (newer engineering-lower distortion) that the Voice1.
Thanks for this information John!
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post #9739 of 9810 Old 06-02-2017, 05:48 AM
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Rich while I always appreciate your help when comparing the s1 vs s2 I have no problem conceding the s2 is a leap forward but, do the s2 expose the limitations in the chain more so than the s1 ? I audition the focal 1028be and they sound AMAZING on 20% of my recordings while the s1 makes 80% sound great and I would appreciate knowing if the s2 would change that balance without significant upgrades.

Revel ultima salon loudspeakers
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Last edited by steven59; 06-02-2017 at 06:00 AM.
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post #9740 of 9810 Old 06-02-2017, 06:07 AM
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Rich while I always appreciate your help when comparing the s1 vs s2 I have no problem conceding the s2 is a leap forward but, do the s2 expose the limitations in the chain more so than the s1 ? I audition the focal 1028be and they sound AMAZING on 20% of my recordings while the s1 makes 80% sound great and I would appreciate knowing if the s2 would change that balance without significant upgrades.
I would put it differently, the S2's are transparent so improvements in the chain can be appreciated

I have heard @gsr 's Focals and they are an excellent speaker.
My takes is that S2's give you all that the Focals BE's and more bass and play louder/cleaner with dynamic material.

Speakers and room are most important, but then they need to be well driven. The A21 is a capable amp. If you want to try something, try bi-amping playing only a single S2 speaker.
These banana plugs make it easy to switch between the modes at the amp:

https://www.parts-express.com/angled...insu--091-3608

I performed several Single Blind Tests (SBTs) with 3 different people all were able to tell the difference between bi-amped and single-amped with an A21.
This was true for the Salon1s, Salon2's and Studio2's but to a much lesser degree for the Voice2.

A while back, @gsr and I did a quick comparison playing content on a single Salon powered a JC-1, single amped A21, and bi-amped A21.
Our preference was: 1) JC-1, bi-amped A21, single channel A21. Volume was modest so there was no way any of these amps was clipping.

- Rich
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post #9741 of 9810 Old 06-02-2017, 08:20 AM
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^ I agree with @RichB 's assessment of the Salon2 versus the Focal (I have a pair of 1038Be's in my home office system). The Focals are excellent speakers (which is why I kept the pair to use in my home office system), but start to fall apart as you crank the volume up. One specific example is Paper Airplane on the Paper Airplane album by Allison Krauss & Union Station. On the Focal 1038Be's, that track sounds badly distorted in a few places if you play it moderately loud. On the Salon2's, I can play the same track at a much higher volume level and there's absolutely no distortion to be heard. This comparison was made with both speakers when I still had my Parasound JC-1's (and an A51) which I have since replaced with a pair ATI Signature 6007 amps, which allows me to biamp all 7 speakers.
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post #9742 of 9810 Old 06-02-2017, 08:49 AM
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I'm thinking of using a JBL LSR 705P (small but mighty) as a center channel between my Revel F208's.

Since we have some questions happening now about centers and surrounds, maybe @JohnSchuermann could comment on mixing and matching the two brands.

Perhaps it's not aesthetically ideal, but the LSR 7 P series looks like a good way to handle center and surround duties without having to get more amp channels.

A JBL 705P could substitute for a Revel C208 and an amp to drive it and have a much smaller footprint, plus vertical vs horizontal.

And JBL LSR 708P's could replace Revel Gem2's and the amp necessary to drive them too.

Obviously, if the Revels and JBL's don't integrate well, it's a bad idea.
If I wasn't so lazy, I'd go back through the Synthesis thread and find where we did some listening sessions between the LSR708s and the F208s . I'll try to summarize.

It probably should not come as a huge surprise, but the overall balance of both speakers was about the same. That should be expected when both designs have high accuracy as their goal. However, there were differences.

The Revels have a silkier, smoother high end, vs. the "analytical" high end of the 708s. With the 708s looped dialogue became more obvious, harshness on the top end of poor recordings was more exposed. Exactly what you want for a critical mastering speaker, but not always the type of sound that invites you to relax into the music. For movies, though, the 708 has dynamics to spare, while the Revel was a bit more laid back. However, all of us in the listening session noticed that the F208 more detail / articulation in the bass (not a night and day difference, but noticeable).

My concern would be that the center channel has far and away more information in it than even the left and right channels, so in many ways it's the most important speaker in a surround setup. Many think it's just for dialogue, but most Foley and FX go into it as well. If there's an explosion happening in the middle of the frame, the sound of the explosion will primarily come from the middle speaker.

That said, Revel and JBL do integrate well. Just take a look at my current system (Jim Garrett at Harman calls it a "mutt"):

JBL LSR708is LCR (to be replaced by M2s today - the LSR708s will be moved to side and rear surrounds when I'm done with this theater remodel)

Revel F208s side surrounds (which I move to the front when a customer wants to demo them)

Revel F36s as rear surrounds (" ")

Revel C763L as heights (as I've mentioned before, the same height speaker used for final QC of 90% of Blu-rays, where they are paired with a JBL Synthesis system)

JBL S2S-EX subs

All of this is remarkably coherent. I'll have more impressions on using the LSR708is for surrounds when this overhaul is done. I should also have the Salon2s in next week, which will make for more fun comparisons
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post #9743 of 9810 Old 06-02-2017, 02:11 PM
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Many thanks John.

I always appreciate your knowledge and the time you take to answer questions so articulately.
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post #9744 of 9810 Old 06-02-2017, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
My Friend uses the stand placed under his wall-mounted display and it looks great there.
I Rube-Golberged the stand and attached to a heavy-duty omni-mount (no longer made) to mount it above the display.

I like it up there

- Rich
That's... really getting up there!

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The stand is actually pretty nice. If you have some specific questions we may be able to give you better advice.

The Gem2's are very nice speakers, BUT if using them with the floor stands, they take up nearly as much space as Salon2's or Studio2's and mounting the speaker cables is a bit of an adventure. So I ended up going with 6 Salon2's (and selling the pair of Gem2's and stands I had already purchased) as I got a deal I just couldn't pass up.
Thanks, nothing specific, I was mainly wondering how the Voice2 stand looks, if it is a solid/stable design vs. a piece of plastic that feels "cheap" (not expecting that but have seen some expensive stands that make me go "hmmm..."), does it offer the ability to tilt (aim) the speaker (looks like it from a quick glance at the manual?), and so forth. Just wanting a warm fuzzy that people who forked out for the stand felt it was worth it, realizing that cheaping out on the stand compared to the price of the speakers may be low-class, but I've got friends in...

I have a home-built stand to raise my TV about 11" above my console now. My previous center fit under it, and my present center fits in front of it. I can raise it another 5" and the Voice2 will fit, but then I have to do work (shudder) and need to make sure whatever I build is mechanically stable. It looks something like a small Parson's or coffee table, painted flat black, with 2"x4" legs and doubled-up 3/4" plywood to handle the TV's weight (about 70 pounds). If I raised it the Voice2 should just fit (and yes the speaker would sit at the forward edge of the console, no point in getting a Voice2 then destroying all Revel's fine anti-diffractive work!)

Thanks also for the info on the Gem2's. I could wall-hang them but as my walls are floating I loathe putting in any more holes than I have to. I'll have to look at the stand manual and make some measurements to see if they would work. Worst case I'll stick with my MC-1's, which might not be an ideal match but are already mounted and working (and paid for). I was hoping for a better match and a bit more low end.

Four more Salon2's are not in my budget nor is there space in my room, though maybe if I got a smaller couch...

Thanks guys, waiting until John gets them in is killing me... With my luck I'll have to work again next weekend instead of setting up new toys. Or maybe I'll be *cough* sick, durned *sniffle, sneeze* tree pollen...

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post #9745 of 9810 Old 06-02-2017, 03:07 PM
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Thanks, nothing specific, I was mainly wondering how the Voice2 stand looks, if it is a solid/stable design vs. a piece of plastic that feels "cheap" (not expecting that but have seen some expensive stands that make me go "hmmm..."), does it offer the ability to tilt (aim) the speaker (looks like it from a quick glance at the manual?), and so forth. Just wanting a warm fuzzy that people who forked out for the stand felt it was worth it, realizing that cheaping out on the stand compared to the price of the speakers may be low-class, but I've got friends in...
Yeah, the stand is very nice. It's very solid and stable and does allow you to tilt the speaker. I had previously been using a Sound Anchor center speaker stand with my previous speakers and am glad I went with the Revel stand.

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Thanks also for the info on the Gem2's. I could wall-hang them but as my walls are floating I loathe putting in any more holes than I have to. I'll have to look at the stand manual and make some measurements to see if they would work. Worst case I'll stick with my MC-1's, which might not be an ideal match but are already mounted and working (and paid for). I was hoping for a better match and a bit more low end.
The footprint for the Gem2 stands isn't much smaller than the footprint of a Salon2. Obviously the Salon2's look more massive overall, but if you have the floorspace for the stand footprint, you could probably fit Salon2's or Studio2's.

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Four more Salon2's are not in my budget nor is there space in my room, though maybe if I got a smaller couch...
As far as budget goes, you just need to keep an eye out for a good deal. In the end, it really wasn't that much more $$$ for me to go with the 6 x Salon2's + Voice2 instead of 2 x Salon2's + 4 x Gem2's + 4 x Gem2 stands + Voice2.

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Thanks guys, waiting until John gets them in is killing me... With my luck I'll have to work again next weekend instead of setting up new toys. Or maybe I'll be *cough* sick, durned *sniffle, sneeze* tree pollen...
Yeah, the wait can be the worst part, but I must say that you're looking a bit under the weather so I'd advise taking next weekend off...
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post #9746 of 9810 Old 06-02-2017, 03:09 PM
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IMO, Gem2's are meant to be wall hung. What's a few more holes in the wall? Holes can always be patched, but I'd imagine the speakers would be there forever.
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post #9747 of 9810 Old 06-02-2017, 03:11 PM
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IMO, Gem2's are meant to be wall hung.
Agreed. While the stands certainly do work, they essentially emulate a wall to hang the Gem2's on.
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post #9748 of 9810 Old 06-02-2017, 03:35 PM
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Thanks again guys, much to consider.

Wall hanging the speakers is problematic due to the floating walls (and ceiling). It's not just more holes to reduce acoustic isolation; there are essentially no wall studs, so they must be supported by the (doubled 5/8") drywall, which usually means spreaders and through-wall anchors for something as heavy as these. Otherwise it'd be worth considering. I'll have to look closer at the stands; no dimensions I can see on the Revel site or in their owner's manual (shame! Harman has no rulers?) Knowing the rough footprint I can take some measurements and see what might fit. My current surrounds are on stands but their footprint is fairly small, and the speakers themselves are tall but planar so tuck near the wall.

Budget-wise I'd probably be looking at used or heavily-discounted B-stock, even for the Gem2's, again something to consider. That's why I was thinking of stepping down the line for the surrounds and rears. I have this idea I might actually try surround music again (my old Oppo died so no SACDs, just never got around to getting it repaired, but might get a new Oppo or Sony later this year). If so the extended LF response would be a plus. The Studio2's might be less overwhelming; the room is not all that large.

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post #9749 of 9810 Old 06-02-2017, 04:23 PM
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The Voice2 comes with a cradle with hand-tightening knobs to adjust the angle. There are small feet that come with it, so it can be placed on a stable surface of your own design.


The optional stand adds a base and post that screws into the cradle.


- Rich
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Oppo UPD-205 | Sonica DAC | BDP-105D | HA-1 | PM-1 | Emotiva XMC-1 | ATI Signature AT6002 x 2 + AT6006 | Revel Salon2s, Voice2, Studio2s | Velodyne HGS-15 | LG 65C7 | Lumagen 2020
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post #9750 of 9810 Old 06-04-2017, 08:15 AM
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For that matter, the C208 is big too Always a good idea to check your space.
This is correct as it is 29" wide by 12" height by 14" depth. It is also quite heavy weighing over 51 pounds. For comparison the Revel F206 tower is 58 pounds. It would have been ideal if Revel had perhaps a C206 that was in between the C205 and C208 that used two 6.5" cones for the low frequencies, but a smaller cabinet size.

That said, the C208 is a work horse for movies revealing a lot of fine detail (due to the 4" midrange cone) and excellent for multi-channel music. Having listened to the original Revel Voice, in my opinion the C208 did nearly as well.

It is also aesthtically beautiful in the high gloss walnut. After John found out that Revel okayed the use of the C208 for L/C/R, I was all set to pull the trigger this June, but the width was too much. I had to settle for the F206 for L/R instead.
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