Revel Owners Thread - Page 328 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9811 of 10190 Old 06-19-2017, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Two Voice2's? You know the "2" means the second version, not that you have to buy two, right?

Update: I've been dialing things in and have gotten things set up pretty well now. Here is something that shocked me a bit: My Salon2's, when running about 10 dB louder than my old Magnepan MG-IIIa's, have about 10 dB lower distortion! I mean, @%^$#!!! I just happened to compare those two curves and those are the levels I had run. Boy, these things are clean! I'm within about 5 dB of the target curve out to 20 kHz (not that I can hear anywhere near that high), and 3 dB down at about 7 Hz (amazing what a quartet of subs and small'ish room will do).

I'm rather pleased [/understatement] - Don
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post #9812 of 10190 Old 06-19-2017, 11:37 AM
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Oh, I expected them to be among the very best conventional designs, but decades ago very few speakers were as clean as my Maggies (and ESLs were even cleaner -- within their dynamic range, of course, and that was usually the rub). I know speakers have advanced but was still surprised and just how good these are. FWIW, my son plays drums and he heard them last night, and he commented on how realistic the drums and cymbals are compared to most speakers (he also liked my previous Maggies, natch). He did notice how the Revels fill out the room better, with a wider sweet spot, also expected. In short, I got what I expected, and did not experience even the minor drawbacks I thought I might hear.

So, to answer your question, yeah...
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post #9813 of 10190 Old 06-19-2017, 11:44 AM
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The Voice2 is also a marvel. A well recorded source sounds great. The drums from The Great Wall UHD were amazing from the center.
This disk is my new reference for demo material on the LG C6 OLED display. The color is worth buying the disk.

- Rich
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post #9814 of 10190 Old 06-19-2017, 12:02 PM
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I just ordered that disk recently and it should be here this week. Not the UHD version, don't have a 4K player, but it's on the playlist for this weekend. Looking forward to seeing on the Salon2s and Voice2 handle it. One of the reasons for my upgrade was to get deeper bass from the center and surrounds/rears and the Voice2 and F206's have most certainly done that.

Next on my list are a new BD player (need one to do SACDs since my old Oppo died and might as well go for 4K HDR) and TV (probably wait until the latest QLEDs come down in price, and price aside the Sony AE1 was dropped because I cannot wall-mount it and the stand makes it lean back, a major problem in my layout).
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post #9815 of 10190 Old 06-19-2017, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
The Voice2 is also a marvel. A well recorded source sounds great. The drums from The Great Wall UHD were amazing from the center.
This disk is my new reference for demo material on the LG C6 OLED display. The color is worth buying the disk.

- Rich
Good point on the Voice2 - anyone dealing with a room with hard surfaces, know that the Voice2 will sound quite good or more importantly, acceptable whereas other decent but lesser centers do not.
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post #9816 of 10190 Old 06-20-2017, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Oh, I expected them to be among the very best conventional designs, but decades ago very few speakers were as clean as my Maggies (and ESLs were even cleaner -- within their dynamic range, of course, and that was usually the rub). I know speakers have advanced but was still surprised and just how good these are. FWIW, my son plays drums and he heard them last night, and he commented on how realistic the drums and cymbals are compared to most speakers (he also liked my previous Maggies, natch). He did notice how the Revels fill out the room better, with a wider sweet spot, also expected. In short, I got what I expected, and did not experience even the minor drawbacks I thought I might hear.

So, to answer your question, yeah...
Very cool.

One thing that I cannot understand is the "Vintage Speaker" thing.
Advent, Bozak, Sansui etc.
Compared to just about any decent speaker, Xover & cabinet design in the last 10 years, these things sound bloody hideous.
One personal example.
I bought a pair of Harbeth HLmk IIs in 1979.
Designed by the famous Dudley Harwood himself.
2-way with a proprietary polypropylene mid-woof & Audax tweeter.
Baltic birch ply cabinet.
At the time they were killer and would've put ANY Advent in the ditch in flames.
In 1990 I bought a pair of the little HLP3ES mini monitors designed by Alan Shaw who took over Harbeth from the founder.
The HLP3's were a zillion times better in every single way.
Fast forward 27 years and guess what?

What are they hearing?

 

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post #9817 of 10190 Old 06-20-2017, 08:21 PM
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Well, my post was not meant to imply vintage speakers were better; if anything, what I meant to convey was how conventional designs have caught up to and surpassed some of the cleanest speaker designs back then and today. I just happen to own a pair of vintage Maggies, mostly because I didn't want to give them up, and never found anything that blew me away. Maggies have improved too but with very little actual experience my impression is that conventional designs have improved much more in comparison over time.

Back then I listened to Infinity IRS, Quads, Acoustats, Beveridge, B&W, Bozak, Mark Levinson's HQD system, and so forth. I would not rank Advent in their class; the Advents had a nice sound but a lot of issues, and had quite a cult following. Speaker design took a big leap forward with new concepts like Thiele parameters, time alignment, and significantly improved driver designs. More recently I have listened to very few high-end speaker; not time, and too hard to wander around trying to find them. I listened to various Focal, B&W, Revel, and a few others but frankly did not expect to buy new speakers now so don;t have much basis for comparison. A friend of mine has B&W 803D's and likes my Maggies as well; different, but still good, and probably just my bias but I think my MG-IIIa's do (did) a pretty good job at holding their own.

The semi-astonishing thing to me is that I have not had any thoughts of setting up the Maggies and trying to compare; the Salon2's are doing everything I ask of them and more. I did a lot of listening in the week or two before the Salon2's arrrived, and more in the days before I set up the Salon2's, so I'd have some basis. The Maggies sounded so good that I was nervous but the Salon2's are as good and better in some respects. I would not say they blow away my Maggies, but they have a lot of strengths and do significantly outstrip my Maggies in several areas.

As for Advents, large, small, or stacked, not even in the same ballpark... More like the parking lot.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #9818 of 10190 Old 06-20-2017, 09:35 PM
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In the late 70's I spent many a lunch hour at J&R browsing thru the vinyl. Always enjoyed Nick Lowe "Cruel to be Kind" coming out of the multiple Advents on the floor.
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post #9819 of 10190 Old 06-21-2017, 07:27 AM
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Don, sincerely I never meant to imply that you did.
In fact Magnepans were waaay ahead of their time and although they have gone through some changes have remained constant first-rate speakers for 30+ years with the same basic design.
I too heard Quads and Acoustats back in the day and was blown away by the mid-range in the Quads and like Magnepans the Acoustats life size imaging ability to reproduce detail. Although sometimes it was a bit super life sized

 

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post #9820 of 10190 Old 06-21-2017, 08:11 AM
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No worries, thanks. I've always had mixed feelings about Quad; great midrange, but so many other issues at lower and higher frequencies. I am a bit surprised more panels (ESL and planar-dynamic) have not done something similar to control directivity like the later (and current) Quads, but then again maybe that is part of their charm. Or they don't want to license the idea from Quad. And yah, especially if you don't damp the back wave, sometimes you get an impressively spacious image that eventually becomes distracting when the solo violin is 8' wide and all that jazz (I refer to that as "the Bose 901 image" -- impressive, liked by many, but not real).
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post #9821 of 10190 Old 06-21-2017, 07:32 PM
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Don, just an epilogue to my OT posts.
It seems we're on the same wave length on speakers.
As I said earlier, you more you listen the more you'll like.
I hope you enjoy it at least as much as I have.

 

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post #9822 of 10190 Old 06-29-2017, 12:26 PM
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Well crew - my theater got hit by a direct strike of lightning. The bright side is that we're replacing all of it. None other than John Schuermann is helping me with the project and I'm looking forward to the outcome. Below is the speaker lineup:

REVEL:F208 2x

REVEL:C208

REVEL:W893 4x rears & sides

REVEL:B112 2x

REVEL:C763L 4x overhead

I'll be sure to report back on the results. John and his crew have been really helpful so far. -i
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post #9823 of 10190 Old 06-29-2017, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by IKohlbacher View Post
Well crew - my theater got hit by a direct strike of lightning. The bright side is that we're replacing all of it. None other than John Schuermann is helping me with the project and I'm looking forward to the outcome. Below is the speaker lineup:

REVEL:F208 2x

REVEL:C208

REVEL:W893 4x rears & sides

REVEL:B112 2x

REVEL:C763L 4x overhead

I'll be sure to report back on the results. John and his crew have been really helpful so far. -i
Blew all the speakers too or caught fire?

Glad to hear it's getting "renewed"
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post #9824 of 10190 Old 06-29-2017, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IKohlbacher View Post
Well crew - my theater got hit by a direct strike of lightning. The bright side is that we're replacing all of it. None other than John Schuermann is helping me with the project and I'm looking forward to the outcome. Below is the speaker lineup:

REVEL:F208 2x
REVEL:C208
REVEL:W893 4x rears & sides
REVEL:B112 2x
REVEL:C763L 4x overhead

I'll be sure to report back on the results. John and his crew have been really helpful so far. -i
Sounds (reads?) like a great system! John is really great to work with, and Joel managed to load up a pair of Salon2's and four F206's in his truck before I could get there to help. Be nice to Joel...
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Last edited by DonH50; 07-01-2017 at 09:35 PM.
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post #9825 of 10190 Old 06-30-2017, 06:01 AM
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You will love the F208's and C208 for your front end. I just unboxed mine Tuesday and OMG, I could not be more pleased.

A very big "thank you: to John Schuermann for all his help and patience as I have been communicating with him for a long time on these.

Hope to post some photos and more info this weekend as time permits.

Gary
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Have fun with music and HT

Gary
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post #9826 of 10190 Old 06-30-2017, 01:52 PM
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Revel Owners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by IKohlbacher View Post
Well crew - my theater got hit by a direct strike of lightning. The bright side is that we're replacing all of it. None other than John Schuermann is helping me with the project and I'm looking forward to the outcome. Below is the speaker lineup:



REVEL:F208 2x



REVEL:C208



REVEL:W893 4x rears & sides



REVEL:B112 2x



REVEL:C763L 4x overhead



I'll be sure to report back on the results. John and his crew have been really helpful so far. -i


I've running exactly the same speaker setup. You will love it! Only difference is I'm using JTR subs (Cap4000). My system for the money is hard to beat. What are you running for your ATMOS processor?
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post #9827 of 10190 Old 06-30-2017, 06:55 PM
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I may have posted this in the thread before so forgive me.
I fishing for any feedback on my brilliant amp pairing to Studio2 speakers.
My living room system has been out of action during a reno.
When it's done I plan on getting an AT542NC.
I have Revel Studio2s and was driving them with a pair Emotiva XPA-1Ls.
The plan is to bi-amp the upper end with the Emotivas and the lower end with the ATI.
Pre-Amp is an Anthem D2.
The system will be calibrated using ARC.
Planned front-end is a Holo Audio Spring Level 3 DAC.

ARC does frequency sweeps on all of the speakers specified in the setup.
Hopefully listening will back up the result.
I've been using ARC since it was released with great result.
What I need to do research is the x-over points in the Revels and specifics on what the bi-amp terminals on the speakers "do".

AFAIR, the gain in db between the 2 amps is ~1db.
I do not know if that is a significant factor or not, but I'm going to give it a shot and see what the outcome is.

Any thoughts Pro\Con or indifferent are welcome.

 

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post #9828 of 10190 Old 06-30-2017, 09:10 PM
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Personally, and I have bi-amped many times over the years, I would skip it. Revel put an immense amount of effort into the crossover design and getting the phasing/blend among drivers "perfect". You do not replace the internal crossovers using the speaker terminals so do not gain some of the most significant benefits of bi-amping (nor some of the drawbacks, of course). You do get the headache of having to determine the optimal external crossover settings and having to set up and calibrate the crossover and amplifiers (though the D2 may take a lot of the hard part away). With 500 W+ full-range from the ATI I do not think you will lack for power and will save yourself some work. Use the Emotiva's for surrounds or another system in the house (But honey, I already have the amplifiers, I just need a preamp and couple of speakers!)

The D2 + 542NC sounds like a fantastic combination...

IME/IMO/FWIWFM/my 0.000001 cent (microcent) - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #9829 of 10190 Old 07-01-2017, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
I may have posted this in the thread before so forgive me.
I fishing for any feedback on my brilliant amp pairing to Studio2 speakers.
My living room system has been out of action during a reno.
When it's done I plan on getting an AT542NC.
I have Revel Studio2s and was driving them with a pair Emotiva XPA-1Ls.
The plan is to bi-amp the upper end with the Emotivas and the lower end with the ATI.
Pre-Amp is an Anthem D2.
The system will be calibrated using ARC.
Planned front-end is a Holo Audio Spring Level 3 DAC.

ARC does frequency sweeps on all of the speakers specified in the setup.
Hopefully listening will back up the result.
I've been using ARC since it was released with great result.
What I need to do research is the x-over points in the Revels and specifics on what the bi-amp terminals on the speakers "do".

AFAIR, the gain in db between the 2 amps is ~1db.
I do not know if that is a significant factor or not, but I'm going to give it a shot and see what the outcome is.

Any thoughts Pro\Con or indifferent are welcome.
From earlier in this thread a quote from the top at Revel:

Revel Owners Thread

I too, have heard such effects from passive bi-amping. If the speaker is competently designed, you would never want to insert active crossovers, except for a rare case in which the transfer function required to properly “cross-over” the speaker is published and properly implemented. Otherwise, passive bi-amping can offer sonic improvements. One reason is likely that the impedance outside the pass-band rises dramatically—thus resulting in the amp not being significantly utilized outside the intended frequency range. So for example, an amp dedicated to the high-frequency section of a speaker (whether that is a tweeter alone, or perhaps a tweeter and midrange), will not have significant current draw at low frequencies, resulting in lower distortion.

I would also not rule out passive crossover interaction. It is easy (and fun if your into that sort of thing) to test a single speaker with an stereo amp and stacking banana plugs.
It's a simple to setup and single-blind-test (SBT) to compare stacking at the amp (single) channel to two channels. Revel tests with a single speaker so there is nothing wrong with that.

ARC will flatten out the differences of a DB.

- Rich

Oppo UPD-205 | Sonica DAC | BDP-105D | HA-1 | PM-1 | Emotiva XMC-1 | ATI Signature AT6002 x 2 + AT6006 | Revel Salon2s, Voice2, Studio2s | Velodyne HGS-15 | LG 65C7 | Lumagen 2020
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post #9830 of 10190 Old 07-01-2017, 07:30 AM
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Revel is my new favourite speaker.

Not sure if I should start a new thread about this, or ask here?

I was given a pair of M12 speakers a while back. At the time I did not have a use for them, so they sat around doing nothing for a while. When I did get around to trying them, I was quite surprised how well balanced they sounded. They bought out some detail in the mid-range that I had been missing on my more expensive B&W speakers, but also had a smoother top end which I found less fatiguing.

2 years ago I decided to move up the scale a little, so after a whole lot of googling and listening to a few options, I bought some M106 speakers.

They are obviously a big upgrade over the M12 and I am really enjoying them, but I keep looking at the Gem2 speakers and wondering how much better they will be.

Has anyone compared them? Or can any owners of them say what they have compared them to and how they compared?
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post #9831 of 10190 Old 07-01-2017, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Personally, and I have bi-amped many times over the years, I would skip it. Revel put an immense amount of effort into the crossover design and getting the phasing/blend among drivers "perfect". You do not replace the internal crossovers using the speaker terminals so do not gain some of the most significant benefits of bi-amping (nor some of the drawbacks, of course). You do get the headache of having to determine the optimal external crossover settings and having to set up and calibrate the crossover and amplifiers (though the D2 may take a lot of the hard part away). With 500 W+ full-range from the ATI I do not think you will lack for power and will save yourself some work. Use the Emotiva's for surrounds or another system in the house (But honey, I already have the amplifiers, I just need a preamp and couple of speakers!)

The D2 + 542NC sounds like a fantastic combination...

IME/IMO/FWIWFM/my 0.000001 cent (microcent) - Don
Exactly!

 

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post #9832 of 10190 Old 07-01-2017, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revel Alliance View Post
Revel is my new favourite speaker.

Not sure if I should start a new thread about this, or ask here?

I was given a pair of M12 speakers a while back. At the time I did not have a use for them, so they sat around doing nothing for a while. When I did get around to trying them, I was quite surprised how well balanced they sounded. They bought out some detail in the mid-range that I had been missing on my more expensive B&W speakers, but also had a smoother top end which I found less fatiguing.

2 years ago I decided to move up the scale a little, so after a whole lot of googling and listening to a few options, I bought some M106 speakers.

They are obviously a big upgrade over the M12 and I am really enjoying them, but I keep looking at the Gem2 speakers and wondering how much better they will be.

Has anyone compared them? Or can any owners of them say what they have compared them to and how they compared?
Maybe the M106Be is the speaker I should be looking at.
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post #9833 of 10190 Old 07-01-2017, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
From earlier in this thread a quote from the top at Revel:

Revel Owners Thread

I too, have heard such effects from passive bi-amping. If the speaker is competently designed, you would never want to insert active crossovers, except for a rare case in which the transfer function required to properly “cross-over” the speaker is published and properly implemented. Otherwise, passive bi-amping can offer sonic improvements. One reason is likely that the impedance outside the pass-band rises dramatically—thus resulting in the amp not being significantly utilized outside the intended frequency range. So for example, an amp dedicated to the high-frequency section of a speaker (whether that is a tweeter alone, or perhaps a tweeter and midrange), will not have significant current draw at low frequencies, resulting in lower distortion.

I would also not rule out passive crossover interaction. It is easy (and fun if your into that sort of thing) to test a single speaker with an stereo amp and stacking banana plugs.
It's a simple to setup and single-blind-test (SBT) to compare stacking at the amp (single) channel to two channels. Revel tests with a single speaker so there is nothing wrong with that.

ARC will flatten out the differences of a DB.

- Rich
Still sounds like it might be a risky setup, though. Passed it on for feedback.
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post #9834 of 10190 Old 07-01-2017, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revel Alliance View Post
Maybe the M106Be is the speaker I should be looking at.
Haven't directly compared the M106Be with the standard M106 or with the Gem2, but I have compared the Salon2s with F208s, etc. Since so much of the engineering is the same, it's not hard to extrapolate.

The Ultima2 series (Salon, Studio, and Gem2) all have Revel's beryllium tweeter and cabinets designed to minimize diffraction. To me, what I hear is a smoother, silkier sound with the Ultimas, plus the beryllium tweeter is capable of greater dynamics.

Some thoughts from various Revel sources:

Beryllium is what I and others consider the perfect material. It is lighter that cloth or aluminum and titanium, and even stiffer than these metals. It is so well damped that the first measurable breakup is above 40 kHz, therefore inaudible.


From an article in Sound and Vision, quoting Kevin Voecks:

Having listened to the Performa3 series and Ultima2 series both for very long periods of time, the difference at high frequencies especially is dramatic. The Ultima2 tweeter is so much "cleaner," with vastly lower distortion (even though the Performa3 distortion is far below most speakers) that it is much easier to listen to without fatigue. Combined with the advantages of low diffraction, it is the high frequency range that causes the Ultima2 series to win in long-term listening tests.


Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...s5LpLV63PEM.99

While I would not describe the differences between the two quite as dramatically, I agree with Kevin's overall assessment. However, it's important to keep in mind that the F208s list out at $5K per pair vs. $22K for a pair of Salons
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post #9835 of 10190 Old 07-01-2017, 10:32 AM
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Thanks for all the very kind comments here, especially about Joel! He's been my right hand man since 2004 (at two different home theater companies as well as at Panamorph), and I find him to be indispensable

Enjoy your systems, everyone!!!
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post #9836 of 10190 Old 07-01-2017, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Still sounds like it might be a risky setup, though. Passed it on for feedback.
I prefer vertical bi-amping to avoid these issues. It's better to try it out first with just the ATI.

I would not necessarily conclude that the ATI amp is better driving the low end, high end, or both ends. You have to listen to them.


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Oppo UPD-205 | Sonica DAC | BDP-105D | HA-1 | PM-1 | Emotiva XMC-1 | ATI Signature AT6002 x 2 + AT6006 | Revel Salon2s, Voice2, Studio2s | Velodyne HGS-15 | LG 65C7 | Lumagen 2020
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post #9837 of 10190 Old 07-01-2017, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Haven't directly compared the M106Be with the standard M106 or with the Gem2, but I have compared the Salon2s with F208s, etc. Since so much of the engineering is the same, it's not hard to extrapolate.

The Ultima2 series (Salon, Studio, and Gem2) all have Revel's beryllium tweeter and cabinets designed to minimize diffraction. To me, what I hear is a smoother, silkier sound with the Ultimas, plus the beryllium tweeter is capable of greater dynamics.

Some thoughts from various Revel sources:

Beryllium is what I and others consider the perfect material. It is lighter that cloth or aluminum and titanium, and even stiffer than these metals. It is so well damped that the first measurable breakup is above 40 kHz, therefore inaudible.


From an article in Sound and Vision, quoting Kevin Voecks:

Having listened to the Performa3 series and Ultima2 series both for very long periods of time, the difference at high frequencies especially is dramatic. The Ultima2 tweeter is so much "cleaner," with vastly lower distortion (even though the Performa3 distortion is far below most speakers) that it is much easier to listen to without fatigue. Combined with the advantages of low diffraction, it is the high frequency range that causes the Ultima2 series to win in long-term listening tests.


Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...s5LpLV63PEM.99

While I would not describe the differences between the two quite as dramatically, I agree with Kevin's overall assessment. However, it's important to keep in mind that the F208s list out at $5K per pair vs. $22K for a pair of Salons
Having read this article in the past is one of the reasons I chose the F208's for our HT/2channel room. Also I have had the privilege of listening to just about all of the Revel floor standing line at various audio shows (except the F208's). So I had no hesitation in getting the 208's having never listened to them as I was sure they would be the perfect speaker of me. Last year at The Show Newport I listened to the 206's that were being shown in the same room as the Studio2's as I was looking for something I could use without a subwoofer for 2 channel the logical choice for me was the 208's in my economic range. What I heard from the 206's impressed me for the price range but I simply wanted more.

Now that I have the F208's and a C208 in my room all I can say is that it was the absolute best choice for me.

Gary
John Schuermann and bakerwi like this.

Have fun with music and HT

Gary
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post #9838 of 10190 Old 07-01-2017, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Still sounds like it might be a risky setup, though. Passed it on for feedback.
Passive bi-amping risking? Maybe I'm misunderstanding.
Actually I was hoping that John would pass-on the bi-amping question to Harman.
Thanks John.

Another question I have, if passive bi-amping is a waste of money, why did Revel install the hardware for both horizontal & vertical bi-amping?
I would think a minuscule segment of customers would "require" it for a purchase.

 

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post #9839 of 10190 Old 07-01-2017, 12:31 PM
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Think I misunderstood - thought you were discussing active bi-amping. That's what I get for reading too fast
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post #9840 of 10190 Old 07-01-2017, 09:45 PM
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Most amplifiers are designed to function as voltage sources so passive bi-amping, which reduces current demands on the tweeter amp (assuming speaker impedances help), provides insignificant benefit in the (vast?) majority of cases IME/IMO. There are slight benefits, natch. But IMO, if you need more power, buy a bigger amp. Though an ATI 542NC should be plenty for most of us...

I have used horizontal and vertical bi-amping in the past with various flavors of amplifiers. Since decreasing the driving impedance is one of the benefits for consumer bi-amping, vertical bi-amping works well, because speaker cables can be much shorter. Generally wastes a lot of headroom on the tweeter amp, however, and you can't mix amp designs like using a tube treble amp and SS bass amp.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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