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post #9901 of 10176 Old 08-04-2017, 06:53 PM
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Has anybody listened to Acoustic zen crescendos before buying the salons? The guy I bought my F52's from had a pair but was reluctant to do a side by side, can't blame him for not wanting to mess with the wires as he had two systems along the same wall with the f 52 doing front channel in a surround and the AZ'C a separate rack of 2 channel gear. My curiosity in part is because how similar the f52 and salon's sounded in my room and how much better the crescendos must have sounded at 3 times the price for him to upgrade. Chicago's a big town maybe I can find a dealer that sells both brands.

Revel ultima salon loudspeakers
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kav300il pre amp
Parasound A21 halo amp
revox s26 tuner
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post #9902 of 10176 Old 08-05-2017, 11:36 AM
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Can anybody out there recommend a qualified repair facility in South Florida for the Ultima Studios? Need someone who knows their stuff to troubleshoot my speakers. Revel techs were unable to accurately troubleshoot over the phone. Any help will be very much appreciated.

Regards,
Kevin
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post #9903 of 10176 Old 08-07-2017, 01:36 PM
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Can anybody out there recommend a qualified repair facility in South Florida for the Ultima Studios? Need someone who knows their stuff to troubleshoot my speakers. Revel techs were unable to accurately troubleshoot over the phone. Any help will be very much appreciated.
Regards,
Kevin
Kevin,

There are Revel dealers on both coasts, but Revel should have recommended a repair facility. @John Schuermann may know how that process works.

I PM'ed you, I might be able to help you troubleshoot the problem. Pretty much has to be a driver or crossover issue.

Tell us what you are hearing.
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post #9904 of 10176 Old 08-07-2017, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Kevin,

There are Revel dealers on both coasts, but Revel should have recommended a repair facility. @John Schuermann may know how that process works.

I PM'ed you, I might be able to help you troubleshoot the problem. Pretty much has to be a driver or crossover issue.

Tell us what you are hearing.
Yes, tell us.

Have never had a problem with a Revel speaker, so never have needed service to get involved! Calling the tech support number should get a real live human to help guide through it though:

1-888-691-4171
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post #9905 of 10176 Old 08-07-2017, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by steven59 View Post
Has anybody listened to Acoustic zen crescendos before buying the salons? The guy I bought my F52's from had a pair but was reluctant to do a side by side, can't blame him for not wanting to mess with the wires as he had two systems along the same wall with the f 52 doing front channel in a surround and the AZ'C a separate rack of 2 channel gear. My curiosity in part is because how similar the f52 and salon's sounded in my room and how much better the crescendos must have sounded at 3 times the price for him to upgrade. Chicago's a big town maybe I can find a dealer that sells both brands.
Checked online for measurements but couldn't find any. To me, looks like Acoustic Zen is another of those boutique companies that sell on magic and mystique more than performance. Checking out their website reveals that they manufacture typical "audiophile" tweak stuff, like magical power cables:

http://www.acousticzen.com/products/cables/power

Color me skeptical
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post #9906 of 10176 Old 08-07-2017, 05:45 PM
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Update on the Harman speaker shootout we are holding this weekend - details have been finalized. I think we still have some slots open for those interested in attending. Much discussion about this in this thread:

Speaker Shootout - two of the most accurate and well reviewed speakers ever made

Remember, this is not a sales event; our goal is for this to be a fun and educational experience.

YOU ARE CORDIALLY INVITED TO COMPARE THE REVEL SALON2 VS. THE JBL M2 - FINAL DATES AND TIMES SET!

August 11, 12 and 13

Location – our residential showroom in North Colorado Springs (PM me or email for address, email address at bottom)

Friday August 11th

  • 6 – 9 pm – casual hangout and listening, snacks and drinks provided

Saturday / Sunday Schedule (same both days, August 12th and 13th):

  • 11 -12 pm: demo of the JBL Synthesis M2 / LSR708i / C763L / SDP75 based immersive audio setup, now Synthesis calibrated
  • 12 pm – 1:30 pm: Break for lunch (lots of great places to eat within a short walking / driving distance)
  • 1 – 1:30 pm – setup of blind listening session (you are welcome to observe or assist)
  • 1:30 – 3:30 pm – Blind comparison between the M2s and the Salons (may run shorter or longer, depending on number of attendees)
  • 3:30 – 4:30 pm – Revel Salon2 stereo listening session
  • 4:30 – 5:30 pm – JBL M2 stereo listening session
  • 5:30 – 6 pm – Requests taken (possible Revel F208s, F36)

Any and all are welcome to attend this unique get-together August 11, 12 and 13. There are several factors that make this listening test unique:

1. This is a “shootout” between two of the flagship speakers from one parent company, based on all the latest research coming out of Harman labs, still the largest and best equipped audio research facility in the world. In other words, this is not a test of “brand A vs. brand B,” but a test of two flagship speakers from the same parent company, but using different approaches of achieving similar goals.

2. We will attempt to properly blind part of the listening tests and conduct them in a scientifically controlled manner, taking advantage of direct input from Dr. Floyd Toole on testing methodology. To say we are honored to have him advising us on how to set up this event would be an understatement.

3. This is an attempt at demonstrating how a speaker listening test should properly be set up, where all factors such as speaker placement, source material, and volume are equalized. In addition, part of the listening sessions will be conducted in a truly blind fashion, with both speakers hidden from view so no one knows which speaker is playing at any given time.

I am also happy to report that Harman is sending us new JBL SDP75 surround processor / pre-amp as a loaner specifically for this event.

To RSVP, please PM me or email me at my personal address:

jsmusicsound

at

gmail
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post #9907 of 10176 Old 08-08-2017, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Kevin,

There are Revel dealers on both coasts, but Revel should have recommended a repair facility. @John Schuermann may know how that process works.

I PM'ed you, I might be able to help you troubleshoot the problem. Pretty much has to be a driver or crossover issue.

Tell us what you are hearing.
Thanks Rex. I PM'd you with more info.
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post #9908 of 10176 Old 08-08-2017, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Yes, tell us.

Have never had a problem with a Revel speaker, so never have needed service to get involved! Calling the tech support number should get a real live human to help guide through it though:

1-888-691-4171
Thanks for the reply John. I have contacted Revel and had several long, involved conversations with tech Mike Sumner. I described the issue, shared pics of the crossovers, and Mike reached out to other techs who were involved in designing the crossovers in an attempt to troubleshoot over the phone. They are stumped. Their experience tells them it cannot be the crossovers, that it must be the tweeters. Yet both tweeters tested good using a multimeter. Installing a new tweeter did not solve the problem. Furthermore, the rear firing tweeters both work fine.

So, there must be a loose connection somewhere. The problem is finding it, and then trying to get in there to fix it. That is why I thought a facility with some experience working with Revel would be my best bet. Sending them to Austin, TX or Syracuse, NY is cost prohibitive. Sine they are out of warranty their tech even suggested finding a suitable local facility rather than ship to one of their facilities.

What are the odds that the front-firing tweeters on BOTH speakers would not be working!

Last edited by newstory; 08-11-2017 at 06:41 AM.
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post #9909 of 10176 Old 08-08-2017, 07:05 AM
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Thanks for the reply John. I have contacted Revel and had several long, involved conversations with tech Mike Sumner. I described the issue, shared pics of the crossovers, and John reached out to other techs who were involved in designing the crossovers in an attempt to troubleshoot over the phone. They are stumped. Their experience tells them it cannot be the crossovers, that it must be the tweeters. Yet both tweeters tested good using a multimeter. Installing a new tweeter did not solve the problem. Furthermore, the rear firing tweeters both work fine.

So, there must be a loose connection somewhere. The problem is finding it, and then trying to get in there to fix it. That is why I thought a facility with some experience working with Revel would be my best bet. Sending them to Austin, TX or Syracuse, NY is cost prohibitive. Sine they are out of warranty their tech even suggested finding a suitable local facility rather than ship to one of their facilities.

What are the odds that the front-firing tweeters on BOTH speakers would not be working!
You haven't given us a lot of info on what the problem is, but I gather you're getting no sound from the front tweeters on both speakers. Perhaps a dumb question, but have you used a meter to test for continuity between the crossover outputs and the wires that are connected to the front tweeters? I'm assuming that since you have access to take pictures of the crossover and have tested the tweeters themselves, that this would be fairly simple to check as you should have access to both ends of the wire. Are the front and rear tweeters driven by the same or different crossover outputs? If different, then the crossover would seem to be the most likely culprit if everything else is testing OK.
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post #9910 of 10176 Old 08-08-2017, 07:40 AM
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A good tech does not have to be familiar with Revel, he just has to know how to troubleshoot speakers and crossovers to the component level and have the right test equipment to do it.

I Googled "speaker repair Miami": https://www.google.com/search?q=spea...w=1916&bih=955

Did you try swapping rear tweeters with front tweeters? Just because the front tweeters test OK with the multimeter does not mean they are 100%.

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.p...ummies.103209/

If installing a new tweeter did not work, that means there is no signal coming off the crossover. Something must have blown a component on both crossover boards. It may not look blown. Odds of a loose connection on both speakers are too high.
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post #9911 of 10176 Old 08-08-2017, 08:51 AM
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You are getting good advice from Rex and gsr - anything I would add at this point would be superfluous
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post #9912 of 10176 Old 08-08-2017, 03:01 PM
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Thanks Rex, gsr and John. I appreciate your input. Logically, I find Rex's blown component theory to be the most likely answer. However, the Revel tech insisted it must be the tweeters although they tested between 4 and 5 ohms, and a different tweeter did not work either.
Thus the need for a facility to take them to. I lack the expertise or the space to take them apart and perform in depth troubleshooting.
I had done the Google search but was hoping somebody on this site could refer me to a trusted facility...a known quantity if you will. It seems that the issue I'm having is extremely rare though.

Kevin
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post #9913 of 10176 Old 08-08-2017, 03:07 PM
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Thanks Rex, gsr and John. I appreciate your input. Logically, I find Rex's blown component theory to be the most likely answer. However, the Revel tech insisted it must be the tweeters although they tested between 4 and 5 ohms, and a different tweeter did not work either.
Thus the need for a facility to take them to. I lack the expertise or the space to take them apart and perform in depth troubleshooting.
I had done the Google search but was hoping somebody on this site could refer me to a trusted facility...a known quantity if you will. It seems that the issue I'm having is extremely rare though.

Kevin

If you have a multi meter, play a 10 kHz tone (at a low level) and measure the voltage on the tweeter wires. If its zero, it's not the tweeter.


- Rich

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post #9914 of 10176 Old 08-10-2017, 04:26 AM
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If you have a multi meter, play a 10 kHz tone (at a low level) and measure the voltage on the tweeter wires. If its zero, it's not the tweeter.


- Rich
Thanks Rich.
Tried this and it read 00. Not the tweets...

Kevin
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post #9915 of 10176 Old 08-10-2017, 05:02 AM
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Thanks Rich.
Tried this and it read 00. Not the tweets...
Then given that you're getting sound from the rear tweeters, it has to be the crossover or the wires from the crossover to the tweeters. My money would normally be placed on the crossover, but since the rear tweeters are working I'd be more suspicious of the wire from the crossover to the front tweeters.

You said you took photos of the crossover, so you presumably have access to the crossover and obviously have a meter. If you put the meter into continuity test mode (will beep when you touch the 2 probes or when the probes are connected to a path with nearly no resistance) or into resistance mode if the meter doesn't have a continuity test mode, you should be able to confirm if the wires from the crossover to the tweeters are OK or not. The only tricky part here is identifying which output from the crossover goes to the tweeters if the outputs on the crossover aren't labeled. But if you check each output on the crossover one at a time, you should be able to determine if you have bad wires or not. If none of the paths gives you an indication that the circuit is complete, then you can be pretty confident that the wires from the crossover to the front tweeters are bad.

If you post a picture of the crossover here, someone might be able to let you know which output you need to check.
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post #9916 of 10176 Old 08-10-2017, 06:00 AM
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Bad wires? What goes wrong with wire? I guess it could be burned from over heating? That would be obvious upon visual inspection.

There may be a cold/bad solder joint or a a crack on the circuit board itself. Hard to see unless you can pull the board. Tug on the wires to see if they appear loose.

Odds of that kind of thing happening in both speakers are not good. Sounds to me like both speaker took a hit from a high power transient that took out something in the crossover but did not damage the tweeter.
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post #9917 of 10176 Old 08-10-2017, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Bad wires? What goes wrong with wire? I guess it could be burned from over heating? That would be obvious upon visual inspection.

There may be a cold/bad solder joint or a a crack on the circuit board itself. Hard to see unless you can pull the board. Tug on the wires to see if they appear loose.

Odds of that kind of thing happening in both speakers are not good. Sounds to me like both speaker took a hit from a high power transient that took out something in the crossover but did not damage the tweeter.
Well, he's getting sound from the rear tweeters and confirmed that he has no voltage at the front tweeters, so at a minimum something is wrong other than bad tweeters. It's pretty much got to be a crossover issue or wire. Does the crossover have separate paths for the front and rear tweeters?

I definitely agree that the odds of both speakers having the same problem are pretty low. But either way, checking to make sure the wiring is good ought to be a pretty simple diagnostic and should confirm if the problem is in the crossover or not.
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post #9918 of 10176 Old 08-10-2017, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Bad wires? What goes wrong with wire? I guess it could be burned from over heating? That would be obvious upon visual inspection.

There may be a cold/bad solder joint or a a crack on the circuit board itself. Hard to see unless you can pull the board. Tug on the wires to see if they appear loose.

Odds of that kind of thing happening in both speakers are not good. Sounds to me like both speaker took a hit from a high power transient that took out something in the crossover but did not damage the tweeter.


It could be or a tweeter that failed was moved to the other speaker and then fried the other crossover.
Back in the day, we had removable drives. An operator could not get a drive to read and proceeded to move the disk to other drives. He took out three drives before realizing the error of his ways


I agree though, the most likely scenario is a huge power spike fried the main tweeter crossovers. The rear tweeters are crossed differently so it is possible for them to be unaffected.


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post #9919 of 10176 Old 08-10-2017, 08:31 AM
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https://www.stereophile.com/content/...specifications

The rear tweeter is not the same as the front tweeter and has a level control, it can be turned off. Different paths for sure.

Get a schematic of the crossover or the tech you chose to work on your speakers probably will want to and it will take him time to get it.

It might be cheaper to get new crossover boards from Revel and install them if you can do that yourself. Tech time is not cheap.

If the boards are expensive, see if you can return them if it doesn't fix your problem. If it works on one speaker, probably will on both.

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post #9920 of 10176 Old 08-10-2017, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by steven59 View Post
Has anybody listened to Acoustic zen crescendos before buying the salons? The guy I bought my F52's from had a pair but was reluctant to do a side by side, can't blame him for not wanting to mess with the wires as he had two systems along the same wall with the f 52 doing front channel in a surround and the AZ'C a separate rack of 2 channel gear. My curiosity in part is because how similar the f52 and salon's sounded in my room and how much better the crescendos must have sounded at 3 times the price for him to upgrade. Chicago's a big town maybe I can find a dealer that sells both brands.
I’d absolutely recommend the Zen’s Over the Salons. Don’t let the Harman marketing machine steer you away from that.

I’d also highly recommend listening to the new Paradigm Persona’s if you have a dealer close. Simply sublime. Since you’re in the Chicago area I’m sure you have a bunch.
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post #9921 of 10176 Old 08-10-2017, 11:02 AM
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I’d absolutely recommend the Zen’s Over the Salons. Don’t let the Harman marketing machine steer you away from that.

I’d also highly recommend listening to the new Paradigm Persona’s if you have a dealer close. Simply sublime. Since you’re in the Chicago area I’m sure you have a bunch.
I think the Personas are worth a listen.

I haven't heard the Zens, so can't comment authoritatively. However, it really bugs me that they are selling so many "magic" products on their site, like high end power cables and interconnects.

The scientific research undertaken at Harman at the MLL and in their other facilities is not part of the "marketing machine" - it's independent, published and peer-reviewed. At least Harman will publish actual meaningful scientific measurements, which are now part of a CEA standard. Do we have any for the Zens? I haven't been able to find any...

FWIW, much of Paradigm's engineering team used to work directly with Dr. Toole before he went on to Harman. Very similar scientific approaches from both companies.

Of course, the true test would be to bring a Zen over to our upcoming blind speaker shootout and see how it does against the Salon2s and M2s
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post #9922 of 10176 Old 08-10-2017, 11:12 AM
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I have not heard the Acoustic Zen Crescendos, but the use of a horn loaded ribbon tweeter could be an issue. I would like to see some spin-o-rama data that shows how the high end integrates with the midrange, something Revel excels at due to the tweeter waveguide and crossover. I heard some transmission line speakers (IMF) decades ago and did not care for them.

I personally can not support a speaker company that sells overpriced cables. Too much snake oil for my taste.
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post #9923 of 10176 Old 08-11-2017, 06:33 AM
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Then given that you're getting sound from the rear tweeters, it has to be the crossover or the wires from the crossover to the tweeters. My money would normally be placed on the crossover, but since the rear tweeters are working I'd be more suspicious of the wire from the crossover to the front tweeters.

You said you took photos of the crossover, so you presumably have access to the crossover and obviously have a meter. If you put the meter into continuity test mode (will beep when you touch the 2 probes or when the probes are connected to a path with nearly no resistance) or into resistance mode if the meter doesn't have a continuity test mode, you should be able to confirm if the wires from the crossover to the tweeters are OK or not. The only tricky part here is identifying which output from the crossover goes to the tweeters if the outputs on the crossover aren't labeled. But if you check each output on the crossover one at a time, you should be able to determine if you have bad wires or not. If none of the paths gives you an indication that the circuit is complete, then you can be pretty confident that the wires from the crossover to the front tweeters are bad.

If you post a picture of the crossover here, someone might be able to let you know which output you need to check.
Thank you so much for the guidance gsr. I just checked for continuity in the wires leading to the front tweeter and both tested fine for continuity. So that leaves the crossover.
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post #9924 of 10176 Old 08-11-2017, 06:35 AM
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Bad wires? What goes wrong with wire? I guess it could be burned from over heating? That would be obvious upon visual inspection.

There may be a cold/bad solder joint or a a crack on the circuit board itself. Hard to see unless you can pull the board. Tug on the wires to see if they appear loose.

Odds of that kind of thing happening in both speakers are not good. Sounds to me like both speaker took a hit from a high power transient that took out something in the crossover but did not damage the tweeter.
Thanks for your guidance Rex. No visible signs of burnt wires at all. All wires also appear to be well connected, nothing is loose. Looking more like a crossover issue.
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post #9925 of 10176 Old 08-11-2017, 06:40 AM
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https://www.stereophile.com/content/...specifications

The rear tweeter is not the same as the front tweeter and has a level control, it can be turned off. Different paths for sure.

Get a schematic of the crossover or the tech you chose to work on your speakers probably will want to and it will take him time to get it.

It might be cheaper to get new crossover boards from Revel and install them if you can do that yourself. Tech time is not cheap.

If the boards are expensive, see if you can return them if it doesn't fix your problem. If it works on one speaker, probably will on both.
I think you are correct Rex....next step is to get new crossovers and try to fix it myself. In talking to the Revel tech previously I was offered to get the crossover for about $80 apiece - pretty cheap. They are not returnable - they didn't even want to sell them to me directly but agreed to since they could not identify the source of my problem.
Time to brush up on my soldering/desoldering skills which were never that good to begin with!
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I think you are correct Rex....next step is to get new crossovers and try to fix it myself. In talking to the Revel tech previously I was offered to get the crossover for about $80 apiece - pretty cheap. They are not returnable - they didn't even want to sell them to me directly but agreed to since they could not identify the source of my problem.
Time to brush up on my soldering/desoldering skills which were never that good to begin with!
Get a solder sucker! Pull one or both of the crossovers and do a visual inspection on both sides of the circuit boards to look for anything that might be amiss. Do this before you order new boards, you might find something weird and be able to fix it for no cost. Check that all components are well soldered to the board. Touch up any solder joints that look suspect.

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Last edited by Rex Anderson; 08-11-2017 at 10:25 AM.
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post #9927 of 10176 Old 08-12-2017, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
However, it really bugs me that they are selling so many "magic" products on their site, like high end power cables and interconnects.
Seems to follow with a name like Acoustic Zen, no?
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post #9928 of 10176 Old 08-15-2017, 07:24 PM
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I am looking to add ceiling speakers to my Performa2 7.2 system to add Atmos. I have F52s, the C52 and M22s in surrounds. What Revel ceiling speakers should I look at? Are there other brand/models I should consider? For instance, it appears that JBL's studio and arena series ceiling speakers are modeled after the Revels. I am on a budget for these, so I am trying to find the most cost effective solution. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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post #9929 of 10176 Old 08-15-2017, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by nohjy View Post
I am looking to add ceiling speakers to my Performa2 7.2 system to add Atmos. I have F52s, the C52 and M22s in surrounds. What Revel ceiling speakers should I look at? Are there other brand/models I should consider? For instance, it appears that JBL's studio and arena series ceiling speakers are modeled after the Revels. I am on a budget for these, so I am trying to find the most cost effective solution. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
The Infinity ERS 610 looks suspiciously similar to the Revel C763L, which is the current big-daddy Revel in-ceiling. Given that Harman no longer markets architectural speakers under the Infinity brand, there's a good chance that it's the same product (or at least very similar) and just got ported over to the Revel brand.

You can buy them refurb on Harmanaudio.com for $384/piece right now.

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post #9930 of 10176 Old 08-15-2017, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nohjy View Post
I am looking to add ceiling speakers to my Performa2 7.2 system to add Atmos. I have F52s, the C52 and M22s in surrounds. What Revel ceiling speakers should I look at? Are there other brand/models I should consider? For instance, it appears that JBL's studio and arena series ceiling speakers are modeled after the Revels. I am on a budget for these, so I am trying to find the most cost effective solution. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Is this for an Atmos height speaker setup, or will these just be for "generic" in-ceiling use?

As mentioned above, the Revel C763L is preferred for Atmos use as it is aimable yet still has very wide dispersion.

There is a JBL and Infinity design (also mentioned above) that looks similar, but has different drivers and crossovers. The Revel is an upgrade in that department, plus the Infinity and JBL designs have the older bezel design without magnetic grills.

Still decent speakers though
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