Revel Owners Thread - Page 332 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9931 of 9959 Old 08-16-2017, 06:06 AM
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My step into hifi in the late 80's early 90's was expensive and I generally did more damage than good when auditioning products a retail outlets they would sound awesome til I bought something and installed it. I would call store to explain how my megabuck (for me) purchase sounded like crap only to be told said product just needed 'break in' time, 'coarse that time would be longer that the full refund return date and I would lose more money. Revel has voiced their tweeters so sibilance, my biggest issue, goes unnoticed. Acoustic Zen does offer quite a bit of 'snake oil' on their site and that does look like a leap down the rabbit hole searching for sonic perfection. My salons may be held back by my 'affordable' gear and room placement but they never bad and probably have a long way to go b4 i'm hearing what they're truly capable of.

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post #9932 of 9959 Old 08-16-2017, 08:23 PM
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"At CEDIA 2017, Revel is showcasing the Performa3 Be loudspeakers."
Two new models F208Be and M106Be.

I don't see any mention of a center channel.

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post #9933 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad/Viper-Fan View Post
"At CEDIA 2017, Revel is showcasing the Performa3 Be loudspeakers."
Two new models F208Be and M106Be.

I don't see any mention of a center channel.
A third M106Be for me.
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post #9934 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Revel Alliance View Post
A third M106Be for me.
A third F208Be for me.
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post #9935 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Appears in Chrome on my computer, but here it is again

For some reason, I still can't see any image here. Would it be possible for you to try posting the C205 spin once more, perhaps as an attachment?

I understand the advantages of a three-way over an MTM center, but the C25 spinorama shows a much smoother directivity index than the MTM example Dr. Toole discusses in the first edition of his book. Do you and your contacts at Harman think that any recent advances have made the MTM configuration a better option than it was ten years ago?
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post #9936 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 08:18 AM
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Trying to confirm if a C208Be is coming or not. I know I lobbied hard for one at CES, and I was not the only one. I think these new Be series Performas are going to hit the sweet spot for a lot of people trying to balance high end 2 channel sound with HT applications.
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post #9937 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 08:20 AM
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In case anyone here in the Revel thread missed it, the results of the double blind shootout we did between the JBL M2 and the Revel Salon2 are up, starting with this post:

Speaker Shootout - two of the most accurate and well reviewed speakers ever made

I think a lot of Salon2 owners will be pretty happy with how well their speaker did

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post #9938 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse44 View Post
For some reason, I still can't see any image here. Would it be possible for you to try posting the C205 spin once more, perhaps as an attachment?

I understand the advantages of a three-way over an MTM center, but the C25 spinorama shows a much smoother directivity index than the MTM example Dr. Toole discusses in the first edition of his book. Do you and your contacts at Harman think that any recent advances have made the MTM configuration a better option than it was ten years ago?
So strange - I can even see it in your quote! I've attached it anyhow, along with the C208 spin.

I can pass along the question, but just be aware the crew is scrambling to get ready for CEDIA
Attached Images
File Type: jpg C205 spin.jpg (74.3 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg C208 spin.jpg (75.0 KB, 39 views)

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post #9939 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 09:29 AM
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F208 Dimensions

Does the width (11.8) and depth (14.8) dimensions listed for the F208 include the flared base? If so, could someone tell me what the width and depth is at the top?
I'm just trying to get an idea of how big they will look in my room and constructing some models. Thanks!
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post #9940 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
So strange - I can even see it in your quote! I've attached it anyhow, along with the C208 spin.

I can pass along the question, but just be aware the crew is scrambling to get ready for CEDIA
Thanks very much. I have no idea why I can't see that image. The other spins you've posted, including the C25 and C208, come through with no problem.

Although the C205's on axis curve hews a little closer to the listening window than the C25's, the C25 appears to perform better in the first reflections and sound power. I wonder if the technology has improved since the design of the earlier model. Of course the superiority of the three-way design is apparent in the C208 spin.

Subjectively, have you found the C25 and C205 to be good options?

I really appreciate all the information you provide in these forums!
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post #9941 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markov View Post
Does the width (11.8) and depth (14.8) dimensions listed for the F208 include the flared base? If so, could someone tell me what the width and depth is at the top?
I'm just trying to get an idea of how big they will look in my room and constructing some models. Thanks!
Measuring our demo models:

Top of speaker: 13 3/16" deep, 11 3/4" wide

Base: Approx. 16" deep, 13 1/2" wide

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post #9942 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse44 View Post
Thanks very much. I have no idea why I can't see that image. The other spins you've posted, including the C25 and C208, come through with no problem.

Although the C205's on axis curve hews a little closer to the listening window than the C25's, the C25 appears to perform better in the first reflections and sound power. I wonder if the technology has improved since the design of the earlier model. Of course the superiority of the three-way design is apparent in the C208 spin.

Subjectively, have you found the C25 and C205 to be good options?

I really appreciate all the information you provide in these forums!
Thanks!

I have the C205 in my own living room system. It works great there, but all I'm watching is generic TV and the occasional Netflix program. I've never put it through an intense home theater workout.

We've done a lot of C25s for local installs, and - for the size - they work great. The key is crossing them over properly.

FYI, here's an older quote from Mark Glazer about the C25 vs. the C208 (not sure how helpful this will be, as the C205 is not mentioned):

C208’s benefit is it covers a wide group of listeners as the ones seated off axis, due to the vertical midrange-tweeter. C25 is more compact and more idealized for listeners seated near center.
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post #9943 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Trying to confirm if a C208Be is coming or not. I know I lobbied hard for one at CES, and I was not the only one. I think these new Be series Performas are going to hit the sweet spot for a lot of people trying to balance high end 2 channel sound with HT applications.
Probably could have sold me the pair had they been released. I assume your gut is correct.
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post #9944 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 11:16 AM
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Thanks, @John Schuermann . If you ever have a chance to try the C205 with music, I'd be curious to hear your impressions. I want a multichannel system to deliver an immersive representation of mostly chamber music and the occasional Mahler symphony. I've never had an audio system with more than two channels, so I'm still trying to get a sense of what will be sufficient for what I have in mind.

I wonder if you could offer a recommendation for my setup. LRs are M105s. They're roughly 12 feet from the listening position, and the center will be roughly 10 feet. I'd like to get a third M105, but I can't find a convenient way to fit it under the television, and the C208 isn't much of an improvement in that respect Would you go for the C205 or the C25, or make the compromises necessary for the third M105?

When you say the key to the C25 is crossing it over properly, do you have a particular frequency in mind, or do you mean finding the correct frequency based on the behavior of the room?

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post #9945 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 12:05 PM
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Revel Owners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
So strange - I can even see it in your quote! I've attached it anyhow, along with the C208 spin.



I can pass along the question, but just be aware the crew is scrambling to get ready for CEDIA


John, how do I read this graph; in laymans terms what does it tell us about the C205 speaker? Thanks, Tom



Primary set-up 5.1.4; Yamaha A2050, Parsound P5 w/Emotiva XPA-2 (Gen 3)
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Secondary 5.1: Denon S900W, Polks LSiM703/704C, Polk RC80i in-ceiling rears, RSL Speedwoofer 10s
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post #9946 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse44 View Post
Thanks, @John Schuermann . If you ever have a chance to try the C205 with music, I'd be curious to hear your impressions. I want a multichannel system to deliver an immersive representation of mostly chamber music and the occasional Mahler symphony. I've never had an audio system with more than two channels, so I'm still trying to get a sense of what will be sufficient for what I have in mind.

I wonder if you could offer a recommendation for my setup. LRs are M105s. They're roughly 12 feet from the listening position, and the center will be roughly 10 feet. I'd like to get a third M105, but I can't find a convenient way to fit it under the television, and the C208 isn't much of an improvement in that respect Would you go for the C205 or the C25, or make the compromises necessary for the third M105?

When you say the key to the C25 is crossing it over properly, do you have a particular frequency in mind, or do you mean finding the correct frequency based on the behavior of the room?
I think the C205 would be the best choice here. The drivers and crossovers in the C205 are superior to those in the C25, and the C205 is designed to more precisely timbre match to the M105s as well. The waveguide and tweeter on the M105 and C205 are identical.

That said, there is nothing like having three identical speakers for LCR That would be the idealized setup.

Typically, 80 hz is just fine for most centers, the C25 included.

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post #9947 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 12:51 PM
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John, how do I read this graph; in laymans terms what does it tell us about the C205 speaker? Thanks, Tom


Here is a primer on how to read Spinoramas:

On-axis Response - This represents the direct sound heard by a single listener sitting on the design axis of the loudspeaker. A flat frequency response is an absolute requirement for all electronic devices. Therefore, it is not surprising that loudspeakers with a flat on-axis frequency response have a higher probability of being preferred in double-blind listening tests.

Listening Window - The well-designed loudspeaker should deliver good sound to a group of listeners -- not just the person sitting on-axis. The listening window is the average frequency response measured for listeners sitting on and slightly off the reference axis of the loudspeaker. Loudspeakers that receive high sound quality ratings in double-blind listening tests tend to have listening windows with a flat frequency response.

First, or Early Reflections -- Most of the sound we hear is reflected in rooms. The second loudest sound (after the direct sound) is the first reflected sound produced from the loudspeaker. Therefore, it is paramount that the sounds radiated by the loudspeaker in the off-axis directions generate early reflections that sound good. The shape of this curve should not differ greatly from the on-axis response curve.

Sound Power Response -This is a measure of the total sound radiated by the loudspeaker without regard to the direction in which it is radiated. The shape should be smooth and slightly downward tilting.

Sound Power and First Reflection Directivity Indices - These directivity indices tell us how the directivity of the loudspeaker changes as a function of frequency. At low frequencies most loudspeakers radiate sound omni-directionally (DI = 0 dB), where wavelengths are long. In forward-firing, 2-way and 3-way loudspeakers, as wavelengths get shorter, frequencies get higher, and more of the sound is radiated towards the front. The goal is to have this trend develop smoothly and gradually.

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post #9948 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 03:02 PM
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Thx John, so the C205 is considered very good based on these results?

Primary set-up 5.1.4; Yamaha A2050, Parsound P5 w/Emotiva XPA-2 (Gen 3)
Revel F206 fronts & Revel M16 rears; Outlaw X12 Sub & 4 RSL C34e in-ceilings

Secondary 5.1: Denon S900W, Polks LSiM703/704C, Polk RC80i in-ceiling rears, RSL Speedwoofer 10s
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post #9949 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by yanks1 View Post
Thx John, so the C205 is considered very good based on these results?
Yes, it just suffers from some minor issues that apply to just about all horizontally oriented speakers (http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...nnel-designs-1). But let's keep it in perspective. Look at this measurement of a B&W CM1, which is not even a center speaker, but a bookshelf model (which shouldn't have any of those issues):



Or how about this Vienna Acoustics Mozart?



So, while the C205 does not measure as well as the M105 or M106, it's still miles better than most other companies "non" center speakers
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post #9950 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 05:54 PM
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Thx for the reply & link John

Primary set-up 5.1.4; Yamaha A2050, Parsound P5 w/Emotiva XPA-2 (Gen 3)
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post #9951 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Jesse44 View Post
Thanks, @John Schuermann . If you ever have a chance to try the C205 with music, I'd be curious to hear your impressions. I want a multichannel system to deliver an immersive representation of mostly chamber music and the occasional Mahler symphony. I've never had an audio system with more than two channels, so I'm still trying to get a sense of what will be sufficient for what I have in mind.
If your goal is immersive classical music, that's a different set of needs than the typical home theater setup. In particular, the center channel may not help you much. The center channel is important for HT because of movie dialog, whereas immersiveness is added by the surround channels. If you've never tried multichannel you might want to test the idea using lesser priced speakers.

For the occasional Mahler, a well integrated subwoofer would help.

Last edited by neutralguy; 08-17-2017 at 07:43 PM.
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post #9952 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 07:52 PM
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If your goal is immersive classical music, that's a different set of needs than the typical home theater setup. In particular, the center channel may not help you much.
Not if the recording is a real 5.0 as are the majority of classical MCH recordings. Down-converting to 4.0 or 4.1 is a compromise, imho.

Quote:
For the occasional Mahler, a well integrated subwoofer would help.
Indeed.
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post #9953 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 09:58 PM
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If your goal is immersive classical music, that's a different set of needs than the typical home theater setup. In particular, the center channel may not help you much. The center channel is important for HT because of movie dialog, whereas immersiveness is added by the surround channels. If you've never tried multichannel you might want to test the idea using lesser priced speakers.

For the occasional Mahler, a well integrated subwoofer would help.
Thanks for your comments. My approach is based mainly on Floyd Toole's book Sound Reproduction. According to his research, five or more channels do a better job than stereo at simulating the sound fields encountered at live performances. He particularly emphasizes the superiority of a real center channel over a phantom one. I believe that in typical multichannel music mixes, as in movie soundtracks, the center channel carries at least as much of the content as any other channel.

My thanks, @Kal Rubinson , for your many helpful writings on this subject, and in particular for your recording recommendations. I have many multichannel SACD rips just awaiting a few more speakers.

Quote:
A well integrated subwoofer would help. - Indeed.

For a bookshelf system, the plan is to get two!
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post #9954 of 9959 Old 08-17-2017, 11:07 PM
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Thanks for your comments. My approach is based mainly on Floyd Toole's book Sound Reproduction. According to his research, five or more channels do a better job than stereo at simulating the sound fields encountered at live performances. He particularly emphasizes the superiority of a real center channel over a phantom one. I believe that in typical multichannel music mixes, as in movie soundtracks, the center channel carries at least as much of the content as any other channel.
Ah yes, a center would be good for 5-channel. I just incorrectly assumed you were up-converting 2 channel classical, which I don't like and it's why I mentioned about trying it first. I should've mentioned that assumption.
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Concerta2 and Atmos

What is a good Atmos speaker that will work with a Concerta2 home theater setup?
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post #9956 of 9959 Old Today, 02:43 PM
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Has anyone heard any updates on when the Performa3 Be Concept speakers will be released? John?
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post #9957 of 9959 Old Today, 04:19 PM
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What is a good Atmos speaker that will work with a Concerta2 home theater setup?
If you want to go all out, about 90% of Blu-ray mixes are QC'd using the Revel C763L as the height channel speakers. It has some unique qualities that make it just about ideal for ATMOS use. Check out Kevin Voecks talking about it at about 1:54 into this video, back when it was called the IC15:


If you want to save some money, the 3 and 5 series in-ceilings will work pretty well, though they won't have the same directional qualities you can get with the C763L.

I've attached the Revel Architectural spec sheet, which shows the differences between the various series of Revel in-ceiling speakers.
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post #9958 of 9959 Old Today, 04:21 PM
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Has anyone heard any updates on when the Performa3 Be Concept speakers will be released? John?
I *think* they will be on display at CEDIA, but my current understanding is that these won't be released until the CES timeframe.

Hope I'm wrong - I have quite a few people waiting for these

I would reach out to my usual sources, but right now they are swamped getting ready for CEDIA.

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post #9959 of 9959 Old Today, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
I *think* they will be on display at CEDIA, but my current understanding is that these won't be released until the CES timeframe.

Hope I'm wrong - I have quite a few people waiting for these

I would reach out to my usual sources, but right now they are swamped getting ready for CEDIA.
Thanks John. I hope they are here sooner rather than later, I'm looking forward to them.
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