Revel Owners Thread - Page 340 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 1181Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #10171 of 10190 Old 10-21-2017, 12:39 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
laserjock II's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Texas Coast
Posts: 1,811
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 778 Post(s)
Liked: 442
@jeffreybehr did you pull your speaker apart for the crossover pic or is that a stock photo?

Last edited by laserjock II; 10-21-2017 at 12:44 PM. Reason: Spellcheck
laserjock II is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #10172 of 10190 Old 10-21-2017, 02:04 PM
Member
 
jeffreybehr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
Do you have a schematic for the crossover? Do you have the specs for the parts? If you don't know where in the circuit the parts are used it's hard to make good judgments on if they are appropriate for their job.
This afternoon I do. .. .. A very good friend is my speaker-crossover-schematic genius. I'll add a scan of it to this note.

After seeing the schematic:
Tweeter; 3rd-order high-pass. Corrected the schematic after my audio guru didn't believe it. I'll replace the 10- and 18uF caps in series with the tweeter with metalized-'propylene SoniCaps with 0.47- and 0.96uF SoniCap Platinum bypasses.
Midrange; simple 2nd-order bandpass. The electrolytic caps MUST go. Will use a SoniCap-1 for the 25 and a Mundorf MCap EVO Oil for the 45.

BTW the speaker has a tweeter-level control (from -1dB thru +1dB in half-dB steps) and a wall-proximity switch built into the input-terminals cup. Probably won't do anything with those.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	X-over003_2000w.jpg
Views:	28
Size:	289.5 KB
ID:	2302738  

Tin-eared audiofool, vidiot, Classical-music lover, and highly amateur fotografer.
http://jeffreybehr.zenfolio.com/p610729623

Last edited by jeffreybehr; Today at 12:34 AM. Reason: Selected replacements for the tweeter caps.
jeffreybehr is offline  
post #10173 of 10190 Old 10-21-2017, 03:04 PM
Member
 
jeffreybehr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
@jeffreybehr did you pull your speaker apart for the crossover pic or is that a stock photo?
Yes; no.

Tin-eared audiofool, vidiot, Classical-music lover, and highly amateur fotografer.
http://jeffreybehr.zenfolio.com/p610729623
jeffreybehr is offline  
 
post #10174 of 10190 Old 10-21-2017, 07:26 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 10,454
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2224 Post(s)
Liked: 1832
The "tweak" on the tweeter filter, if you are referring to the series cap to ground, is to help compensate for the inductance of the driver.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is online now  
post #10175 of 10190 Old 10-21-2017, 07:33 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
torii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 3,411
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1566 Post(s)
Liked: 854
it wouldnt surprise me in models with same drivers all the difference is in the crossover....yea that 5k speaker and 100k speaker only diff is crossover...

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
torii is online now  
post #10176 of 10190 Old Yesterday, 11:23 AM
Member
 
jeffreybehr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
The "tweak" on the tweeter filter, if you are referring to the series cap to ground, is to help compensate for the inductance of the driver.
Don, I've corrected the schematic; no tuning circuits in the x-over.

Tin-eared audiofool, vidiot, Classical-music lover, and highly amateur fotografer.
http://jeffreybehr.zenfolio.com/p610729623

Last edited by jeffreybehr; Yesterday at 02:14 PM.
jeffreybehr is offline  
post #10177 of 10190 Old Yesterday, 05:58 PM
Member
 
steven59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 95
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Anybody try the ATI 542nc amps on their salons?

Revel ultima salon loudspeakers
Rega jupiter cd
kav300il pre amp
Parasound A21 halo amp
revox s26 tuner
steven59 is offline  
post #10178 of 10190 Old Yesterday, 06:14 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 107
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 71 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
If you can swing it, I would suggest going with the C208 or higher. I understand where you are coming from regarding surround music, but about 70 - 80% of a film's soundtrack comes from the center speaker. I mix films occasionally, and in all cases, films are mixed with identical speakers LCR. There is a perception that only dialogue comes out of the center speaker, but in actuality music, explosions, gunshots, etc. all come out of the center speaker too.

I am running the Voice2 with my Salon2s, and it's a pretty seamless experience.

Here are spins of the speakers you are asking about:

M105:



C205:



C208:



Voice2:



To illustrate my point about movie soundtracks, here are some screengrabs of actual movie mixes. They are arranged in the following order: Left, Right, Center, LFE, LSur, RSur. You can see that in action scenes the center is still the most active speaker:

INDIANA JONES - CRYSTAL SKULL - Cliff Chase:



STAR TREK (2009) - Enterprise goes to warp:



Hope that helps!
Thanks John. I am wondering if center channel also has content between 60 and 100 hz. If it does, even with a good sub crossed over at 80, there will be substantial energy that will come out of the center speaker at 60 of even 40 Hz.

In that case the center speaker must be able to handle these frequencies without distortion, just like left and right speakers.

Thanks.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
SouthernCA is offline  
post #10179 of 10190 Old Today, 06:01 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Naples, FL
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 149
Center channel may have content down to 40 Hz and below, especially on music videos where the bass guitar may be mixed in the center channel. Low E string on a bass is about 41 Hz.

The idea is to cross over the center channel speaker higher (around 80 Hz) so it doesn't have to handle all that low frequency material. Less amp power required. Seems counter intuitive to buy speakers that have low frequency extension capability and not use it, but a lot of folks do it. Many Salon2 owners let subs handle stuff below 80 Hz. Remember, if you set the crossover at 80 Hz, that doesn't mean there is a brick wall filter and everything below 80Hz is just cut off. It's the turnover frequency and only down 3 dB at that frequency. The slope of the filter determines how fast it rolls off.

You can play around with crossover frequencies. In a recording control room I setup, I set the crossover closer to 65 Hz and felt the mains integrated with the subs better than setting the crossover at 80 Hz.
John Schuermann likes this.

Last edited by Rex Anderson; Today at 06:07 AM.
Rex Anderson is offline  
post #10180 of 10190 Old Today, 06:15 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 4
I crossover at 80hz for movies but 60hz for music. Movies are brutal on low end so I tend to leave that job to the 3 subs. My music listening tastes are not generally too bass intensive and I find I prefer the more seemless blend of the lower x-o frequency. If I had stand-mount fronts or small towers, I might tend to go 80hz all around.
Spinaker01 is offline  
post #10181 of 10190 Old Today, 07:51 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 107
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 71 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Center channel may have content down to 40 Hz and below, especially on music videos where the bass guitar may be mixed in the center channel. Low E string on a bass is about 41 Hz.

The idea is to cross over the center channel speaker higher (around 80 Hz) so it doesn't have to handle all that low frequency material. Less amp power required. Seems counter intuitive to buy speakers that have low frequency extension capability and not use it, but a lot of folks do it. Many Salon2 owners let subs handle stuff below 80 Hz. Remember, if you set the crossover at 80 Hz, that doesn't mean there is a brick wall filter and everything below 80Hz is just cut off. It's the turnover frequency and only down 3 dB at that frequency. The slope of the filter determines how fast it rolls off.

You can play around with crossover frequencies. In a recording control room I setup, I set the crossover closer to 65 Hz and felt the mains integrated with the subs better than setting the crossover at 80 Hz.
Does that mean that Revel C205 center channel speaker may not be suitable as it does not extend beyond 100 Hz? See above.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
SouthernCA is offline  
post #10182 of 10190 Old Today, 08:07 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Naples, FL
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
Does that mean that Revel C205 center channel speaker may not be suitable as it does not extend beyond 100 Hz? See above.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
It all depends on what you level of performance you want. I use an old Mackie HR 626 (powered speaker) for a center channel that is similar in size and design to the C205. It works OK with my Revel F208's for the size room and levels I listen at. I don't have any subs because my room layout does not have a place to put them. I would like to have a pair of subs, especially for movies, but the F208's have good bass extension. I do not listen at high SPL because my wife and dogs don't like it. Occasionally when my wife is out, I listen to music at higher levels and the F208's sound very good and have good bass at levels above 85 dB SPL. Part of the situation is the Fletcher Munson curves. At low SPL's, you need some bass boost. I should get an EQ to get more bass at lower levels, but it's not a big deal to me.

Floyd Toole's research shows horizontal center channels benefit from having a midrange driver.

I think the Revel C205 serves a purpose and will work fine at lower SPL or in systems with subs. If you have the money, space and desire for bigger and better, I'd go with the C208.
John Schuermann likes this.

Last edited by Rex Anderson; Today at 08:15 AM.
Rex Anderson is offline  
post #10183 of 10190 Old Today, 08:40 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 10,454
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2224 Post(s)
Liked: 1832
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
Does that mean that Revel C205 center channel speaker may not be suitable as it does not extend beyond 100 Hz? See above.

Revel specs the C205 to 80 Hz -3 dB. Though I probably would not run it that low...

"Suitable" depends upon preference and listening habits as well as the source (mix). I had a center with limited LF range for years and rarely missed it. For movies it's mostly dialogue and LF stuff is replicated in the other speakers and subs. For music I tend to listen in stereo so the center isn't even used, though lately I have been toying with using the surround modes again and looking into multichannel discs. Thus for me the C205 would be perfectly suitable, though given the funds and such I would go for a center with a bit more LF extension.

FWIWFM - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is online now  
post #10184 of 10190 Old Today, 09:48 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Northern NJ & Myrtle Beach area, SC
Posts: 1,836
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 880 Post(s)
Liked: 540
Revel Owners Thread

I recently purchased 1 owner C205 to pair with my F206s at our 2nd home. That said, should I set crossover at 100 Hz?? I think now it's at 80 Hz. I am also more into music & primarily in 2 channel mode. Only time multi-channel is for my couple 5.1 SACDs

Primary set-up 5.1.4; Yamaha A2050, Paired w/Parsound P5 Preamp & A21 amp
Revel F206 fronts & Revel M16 rears; Outlaw X12 Sub & 4 RSL C34e in-ceilings

Secondary 5.1: Denon S900W, Polks LSiM703/704C, Polk RC80i in-ceiling rears, RSL Speedwoofer 10s
yanks1 is online now  
post #10185 of 10190 Old Today, 10:46 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
John Schuermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,848
Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1419 Post(s)
Liked: 1469
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
Thanks John. I am wondering if center channel also has content between 60 and 100 hz. If it does, even with a good sub crossed over at 80, there will be substantial energy that will come out of the center speaker at 60 of even 40 Hz.

In that case the center speaker must be able to handle these frequencies without distortion, just like left and right speakers.

Thanks.
In an immersive audio setup - Atmos, DTS-X, etc - ALL channels are specified full range. Even in 5.1 and 7.1 surround mixes, the LCR channels are all specified full range (even if the surrounds are not). Films are just about always mixed with three identical speakers as LCR for precisely this reason.

So, yes - information below 80 hz does come out of the center channel. However, this does not necessarily mean you need a center speaker with bass extension all the way down to 20 hz (or close). This is why bass management of the center is so important. With most good quality center speakers (and the C208 and Salon2 certainly are!), setting the crossover at 80 hz is just about ideal - and what Harman recommends.

I'd also like to echo Rex's comments that it's almost always better to cross over the left and right speakers at 80 hz as well, even if they are crazy big towers with tremendous bass response. As he pointed out, it's not as if the frequencies are hard cut off right at 80 hz - a good room correction system (like Anthem's ARC) will do a tremendous job of "blending" the subs with the mains in any case. This frees up the towers / satellites / center to do what they do best - reproduce the mid and high frequencies with better dynamics and less strain.
John Schuermann is offline  
post #10186 of 10190 Old Today, 10:49 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
John Schuermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,848
Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1419 Post(s)
Liked: 1469
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanks1 View Post
I recently purchased 1 owner C205 to pair with my F206s at our 2nd home. That said, should I set crossover at 100 Hz?? I think now it's at 80 Hz. I am also more into music & primarily in 2 channel mode. Only time multi-channel is for my couple 5.1 SACDs
Trying to remember what you are using for room correction (if anything). With Anthem, I usually go with whatever it recommends for a crossover point. Most receiver implementations of Audyssey force the "large" setting on towers and centers even when it is not appropriate, and you have to manually override it.

You might try manually setting the crossover to 100 hz and see how it blends.
John Schuermann is offline  
post #10187 of 10190 Old Today, 10:52 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
John Schuermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,848
Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1419 Post(s)
Liked: 1469
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
Does that mean that Revel C205 center channel speaker may not be suitable as it does not extend beyond 100 Hz? See above.
The 205 is an excellent center, but there is no doubt that the C208 is better (as you can see in the Spins). The C205 is mainly for those who are space challenged, as the C208 won't fit into a lot of a/v cabinetry. Of course, the price point is nicer too

That said, the C205 is still going to be a better match than going with another brand.
John Schuermann is offline  
post #10188 of 10190 Old Today, 10:56 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Northern NJ & Myrtle Beach area, SC
Posts: 1,836
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 880 Post(s)
Liked: 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Trying to remember what you are using for room correction (if anything). With Anthem, I usually go with whatever it recommends for a crossover point. Most receiver implementations of Audyssey force the "large" setting on towers and centers even when it is not appropriate, and you have to manually override it.



You might try manually setting the crossover to 100 hz and see how it blends.


Thx John; I have Yamaha A2050 with YPAO; also use A21 Amp to drive the 2 fronts and I did reset all 3 fronts to small. Next trip I'll re-run the program and see what crossover it sets the center at
John Schuermann likes this.

Primary set-up 5.1.4; Yamaha A2050, Paired w/Parsound P5 Preamp & A21 amp
Revel F206 fronts & Revel M16 rears; Outlaw X12 Sub & 4 RSL C34e in-ceilings

Secondary 5.1: Denon S900W, Polks LSiM703/704C, Polk RC80i in-ceiling rears, RSL Speedwoofer 10s
yanks1 is online now  
post #10189 of 10190 Old Today, 10:56 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
John Schuermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,848
Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1419 Post(s)
Liked: 1469
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinaker01 View Post
I crossover at 80hz for movies but 60hz for music. Movies are brutal on low end so I tend to leave that job to the 3 subs. My music listening tastes are not generally too bass intensive and I find I prefer the more seemless blend of the lower x-o frequency. If I had stand-mount fronts or small towers, I might tend to go 80hz all around.
You are probably good with this setup, as most music recordings don't have tons of activity below 60 hz or so.

The blending of the subs with mains is something that some AVRs / pre-pros do better than others. Technically it should not matter what frequency you are crossing over at as far as blend, given a good quality room correction setup. I will plug the Anthem system once again, as it not only does a better job of integrating subs and mains in my experience, it also gives you the ability to correct only below Schroeder / transition frequency. With a Revel speaker, all you really want to correct is the room - not the speaker
John Schuermann is offline  
post #10190 of 10190 Old Today, 10:57 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
John Schuermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,848
Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1419 Post(s)
Liked: 1469
Quote:
Originally Posted by rex anderson View Post
center channel may have content down to 40 hz and below, especially on music videos where the bass guitar may be mixed in the center channel. Low e string on a bass is about 41 hz.

The idea is to cross over the center channel speaker higher (around 80 hz) so it doesn't have to handle all that low frequency material. Less amp power required. Seems counter intuitive to buy speakers that have low frequency extension capability and not use it, but a lot of folks do it. Many salon2 owners let subs handle stuff below 80 hz. Remember, if you set the crossover at 80 hz, that doesn't mean there is a brick wall filter and everything below 80hz is just cut off. It's the turnover frequency and only down 3 db at that frequency. The slope of the filter determines how fast it rolls off.

You can play around with crossover frequencies. In a recording control room i setup, i set the crossover closer to 65 hz and felt the mains integrated with the subs better than setting the crossover at 80 hz.
qft
John Schuermann is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Speakers

Tags
Revel

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off