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cream puff's Avatar cream puff 02:20 PM 03-03-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by arshishb View Post

I have paired Q900, Q300 & Q600C to the 1121 & it sounds good to me. I haven't heard anything else with the Kefs so not sure how good/bad they are compared to the Denon. I did have Marantz few years ago & I like Pioneer sound better than the Marantz which seemed more "muffled" to me.

I recently bought a used Emotiva UPA7 to see what the deal is with getting a seperate v. a receiver. But even without the Emo, I am quite pleased with the way they sound.


I recently upgraded to an emo XPA 5 to power my q900/300/600c combo and am very pleased with it, the upa 7 is lower power so your milage may vary a bit.. but i feel it was a solid upgrade.

arshishb's Avatar arshishb 05:54 PM 03-03-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by cream puff View Post

I recently upgraded to an emo XPA 5 to power my q900/300/600c combo and am very pleased with it, the upa 7 is lower power so your milage may vary a bit.. but i feel it was a solid upgrade.

I eventually connected the UPA-7 & it is every penny worth it, I can see why some people swear by separates. The speakers now "disappear" so to speak. The highs are clean, clear & "airy". Bass didnt seem that much different, may be a little tighter but not that much of a difference. 125 watts is more than enough for me, I dont think I will ever need a 200w/c amp in my situation.

I did notice that the Emo is very sensitive to interconnect cable quality. I initially had some ok quality cables that I connected & there was considerable hum & static in the speakers when no sound came out, got worse as the volume went up. I bought some Blue jeans cables & the interference disappeared & thats when the sound quality really opened up.

I am now a believer of seperates, though managing all that cable at the back is PITA.
toolskizm's Avatar toolskizm 04:57 PM 03-06-2012
So I recently got my Q600C in and admittedly, I've never really own a true center channel. More so, I've never really owned a real home theater setup, so this is my first. Upon connecting this speaker and hearing it for the first time, I have to say that I'm very unhappy with it. I'm really thinking there is something wrong with it though. I've tried hooking it up as a center channel and using multi ch audio to play music, and I also watched a move with it. I even tried unhooking the left q300 and putting it in stereo with the other q300 to hear the difference.
This q600c is very very tinny and seems to have no midbass whatsoever..especially compared to the q300s. Is that what you guys get from this speaker? I'm not 100% sure, but I really see no excursion coming from the drivers. It really sounds like just the tweeter is playing. I'm wondering if I got a defective speaker, but I'd like some input especially since I have nowhere I can hear how this thing should sound.
My expectations were for it to sound close to the q300, but that's definitely not the case. And I don't know if that's because it isn't ported, but for 500$ I'm not satisfied at this point...
I got it from accessories4less, so it very well could be defective..
drewTT's Avatar drewTT 05:06 PM 03-06-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolskizm View Post

So I recently got my Q600C in and admittedly, I've never really own a true center channel. More so, I've never really owned a real home theater setup, so this is my first. Upon connecting this speaker and hearing it for the first time, I have to say that I'm very unhappy with it. I'm really thinking there is something wrong with it though. I've tried hooking it up as a center channel and using multi ch audio to play music, and I also watched a move with it. I even tried unhooking the left q300 and putting it in stereo with the other q300 to hear the difference.
This q600c is very very tinny and seems to have no midbass whatsoever..especially compared to the q300s. Is that what you guys get from this speaker? I'm not 100% sure, but I really see no excursion coming from the drivers. It really sounds like just the tweeter is playing. I'm wondering if I got a defective speaker, but I'd like some input especially since I have nowhere I can hear how this thing should sound.
My expectations were for it to sound close to the q300, but that's definitely not the case. And I don't know if that's because it isn't ported, but for 500$ I'm not satisfied at this point...
I got it from accessories4less, so it very well could be defective..

Did you run calibration in your AVR after hooking it up? I would check your crossover settings first. I would also check polarity. But yes, it could possibly be a defective unit.
toolskizm's Avatar toolskizm 06:16 PM 03-06-2012
I did run calibration. Here's what the audyssey eq settings were:


It set the crossover to front full band, center 40hz. The audyssey also set the center to small. I tried changing to large, but didn't really hear a difference.
I also checked the polarity, and that is ok.

I just ran various test tones. I had the q300 hooked up to front right and the q600c to front left. I can see the two outside drivers moving definitely, but not the center. The q300 driver moves throughout the test tones. Is this how the 600 is designed to perform? Like I said, this home audio is new to me, and since I don't have somewhere to audition these, it's harder to know what I should expect. From my car audio experience, I do know that ports can definitely make a night and day difference in a speaker..so maybe that's why it's sounding so different.
I played another movie (Gladiator in 5.1, multi channel). The audio sounded ok..the voices were easy to hear, which I guess that's really the only thing the center is supposed to do. I'd just like to know if it's performing correctly.
sivadselim's Avatar sivadselim 06:30 PM 03-06-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolskizm View Post

So I recently got my Q600C in and admittedly, I've never really own a true center channel. More so, I've never really owned a real home theater setup, so this is my first. Upon connecting this speaker and hearing it for the first time, I have to say that I'm very unhappy with it. I'm really thinking there is something wrong with it though. I've tried hooking it up as a center channel and using multi ch audio to play music, and I also watched a move with it. I even tried unhooking the left q300 and putting it in stereo with the other q300 to hear the difference.
This q600c is very very tinny and seems to have no midbass whatsoever..especially compared to the q300s. Is that what you guys get from this speaker? I'm not 100% sure, but I really see no excursion coming from the drivers. It really sounds like just the tweeter is playing. I'm wondering if I got a defective speaker, but I'd like some input especially since I have nowhere I can hear how this thing should sound.
My expectations were for it to sound close to the q300, but that's definitely not the case. And I don't know if that's because it isn't ported, but for 500$ I'm not satisfied at this point...
I got it from accessories4less, so it very well could be defective..

Is the binding strap (or is it a lever?) that connects the high and low binding posts in place or configured properly?
cream puff's Avatar cream puff 11:27 PM 03-06-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolskizm View Post

I did run calibration. Here's what the audyssey eq settings were:


It set the crossover to front full band, center 40hz. The audyssey also set the center to small. I tried changing to large, but didn't really hear a difference.
I also checked the polarity, and that is ok.

I just ran various test tones. I had the q300 hooked up to front right and the q600c to front left. I can see the two outside drivers moving definitely, but not the center. The q300 driver moves throughout the test tones. Is this how the 600 is designed to perform? Like I said, this home audio is new to me, and since I don't have somewhere to audition these, it's harder to know what I should expect. From my car audio experience, I do know that ports can definitely make a night and day difference in a speaker..so maybe that's why it's sounding so different.
I played another movie (Gladiator in 5.1, multi channel). The audio sounded ok..the voices were easy to hear, which I guess that's really the only thing the center is supposed to do. I'd just like to know if it's performing correctly.

the q600c uses a passive radiator (one of the 2 woofers is not a real woofer) that basically acts exactly like a port, so for the purpose of the comparison, i don't think ported vs not will make a huge difference. id fiddle with the knobs on the terminal and make sure they are both turned fully closed and go from there.
arshishb's Avatar arshishb 05:45 AM 03-07-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolskizm View Post

So I recently got my Q600C in and admittedly, I've never really own a true center channel. More so, I've never really owned a real home theater setup, so this is my first. Upon connecting this speaker and hearing it for the first time, I have to say that I'm very unhappy with it. I'm really thinking there is something wrong with it though. I've tried hooking it up as a center channel and using multi ch audio to play music, and I also watched a move with it. I even tried unhooking the left q300 and putting it in stereo with the other q300 to hear the difference.
This q600c is very very tinny and seems to have no midbass whatsoever..especially compared to the q300s. Is that what you guys get from this speaker? I'm not 100% sure, but I really see no excursion coming from the drivers. It really sounds like just the tweeter is playing. I'm wondering if I got a defective speaker, but I'd like some input especially since I have nowhere I can hear how this thing should sound.
My expectations were for it to sound close to the q300, but that's definitely not the case. And I don't know if that's because it isn't ported, but for 500$ I'm not satisfied at this point...
I got it from accessories4less, so it very well could be defective..

Accessories 4 less is an authorized Kef dealer & all my Kef units arrived new instead of "open box" as said on their website. They do that so that they can post whatever price they want.

As for the Q600c, make sure you are connecting to the bottom speaker terminals & have the 2 knobs all the way in; meaning keep turning them clockwise till they can no longer go in. Also make sure you have connected the correct terminal from the Denon receiver as well.
georghem's Avatar georghem 08:03 AM 03-07-2012
Various deal sites are pointing the internet towards a KEF "Model3" satellite speaker on sale at Newegg. I'd post the link, but I'm too new for that. But they're $129.99/pair shipped with coupon code EMCNGND84.

Bizarre little things, sold as a pair, and wired, so far as I can tell from the image of the box, to send two stereo channels to the forward-firing 4" UniQ drivers, and two surround channels to the 2 side-firing NXT arrays. I can't find any info on the KEF site about them, or the rest of the internet for that matter, and apparently no buyer has ever taken the time to review them.

Has anyone ever heard these? Would they be useful as a subwoofer-augmented desktop setup?

Again, these things look bizarre. Even for KEF.
sivadselim's Avatar sivadselim 10:32 AM 03-07-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by georghem View Post

Various deal sites are pointing the internet towards a KEF "Model3" satellite speaker on sale at Newegg. I'd post the link, but I'm too new for that. But they're $129.99/pair shipped with coupon code EMCNGND84.

Bizarre little things, sold as a pair, and wired, so far as I can tell from the image of the box, to send two stereo channels to the forward-firing 4" UniQ drivers, and two surround channels to the 2 side-firing NXT arrays. I can't find any info on the KEF site about them, or the rest of the internet for that matter, and apparently no buyer has ever taken the time to review them.

Has anyone ever heard these? Would they be useful as a subwoofer-augmented desktop setup?

Again, these things look bizarre. Even for KEF.

They have been on the KEF site, somewhere, in the past. I don't think they accept 4 channels (2front+2rear) of input but only provide a synthetic surround effect from 2-channels of input.
georghem's Avatar georghem 03:03 PM 03-07-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

They have been on the KEF site, somewhere, in the past. I don't think they accept 4 channels (2front+2rear) of input but only provide a synthetic surround effect from 2-channels of input.


I thought so too, and expected some sort of surround fakery. But the closeup of the connections shows that each proprietary cable splits into what seem to be two separate +/- inputs, one for front and one for surround.

But regardless of whether they can do proper surround, anyone have any experience with these things? Searching for "KEF Model 3" and variants thereof only returns info for much larger, much nicer reference series speakers. Really odd that a major outlet like Newegg would be selling a product that KEF doesn't seem to acknowledge exists.
LL
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sivadselim's Avatar sivadselim 07:17 PM 03-07-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by georghem View Post

I thought so too, and expected some sort of surround fakery. But the closeup of the connections shows that each proprietary cable splits into what seem to be two separate +/- inputs, one for front and one for surround.

Yeah, maybe so. I see what you're saying about the box.



Check out the KIT 100.
http://www.kef.com/html/us/explore/a...200/index.html
I'm wondering, now, how connecting them will go considering they have proprietary connectors that seem to be designed specifically for the DVD player in the KIT 100.
(edit: nevermind, I see they come with a special wiring harness for regular connection)


Quote:
Originally Posted by georghem View Post

Really odd that a major outlet like Newegg would be selling a product that KEF doesn't seem to acknowledge exists.

Not really since they seem to have been discontinued.
ranchdrsn's Avatar ranchdrsn 06:52 AM 03-08-2012
Kinda off topic, but if anyone has an extra wall mount for the KHT9000 speaker that they no longer want or need, I am looking to buy... Thanks.
georghem's Avatar georghem 07:27 AM 03-08-2012
Thanks for finding that info about the now-called Model 3. I was able to find some old buzz about the HTIB system they were bundled with, and they weren't very promising. Ended up just buying a set of Audioengine A2s from Vanns for the same price.
toolskizm's Avatar toolskizm 02:01 PM 03-09-2012
Hey guys, sorry it took so long to get back...had a busy week. I tried quite a few things such as changing all to LF as a member suggested and also making sure the bridges are secured. I did not try bi-wiring, which I may try tonight. I did leave a message for KEF and will speak to them today to see if it is in fact defective. I made a video of the q600c hooked up to the left channel and my q300 on the right and ran a 40hz test tone. It's not on the video, but the q300 has absolute clear excursion of the midrange woofer. The q600c's only excursion is coming from both outside speakers, but no movement whatsoever from the middle. Again, I'm not sure if it's supposed to act this way, but I don't believe so. Anyhow, here is the link if you'd like to check it out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmDpR...XO_-srg_tc4%3D
beaveav's Avatar beaveav 02:07 PM 03-09-2012
At 40Hz I would expect the passive radiators to be moving much more than the central cone.

I would also caution you that you are pushing those speakers *very* hard with that 40Hz test tone. Yikes!
sivadselim's Avatar sivadselim 02:24 PM 03-09-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolskizm View Post

Hey guys, sorry it took so long to get back...had a busy week. I tried quite a few things such as changing all to LF as a member suggested and also making sure the bridges are secured. I did not try bi-wiring, which I may try tonight. I did leave a message for KEF and will speak to them today to see if it is in fact defective. I made a video of the q600c hooked up to the left channel and my q300 on the right and ran a 40hz test tone. It's not on the video, but the q300 has absolute clear excursion of the midrange woofer. The q600c's only excursion is coming from both outside speakers, but no movement whatsoever from the middle. Again, I'm not sure if it's supposed to act this way, but I don't believe so. Anyhow, here is the link if you'd like to check it out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmDpR...XO_-srg_tc4%3D

I'm not sure which pair of binding posts each driver is connected to, but if the tweeter is working and the low frequency driver is working, you'd have to assume that the binding posts are correctly strapped together on the back of the speaker. The midwoofer is paired with either the tweeter or the low-frequency driver, and it's (supposedly) not working. There is a possibility that a wire vibrated loose during shipping.

But why 40Hz????? The Q300 is a 2-way speaker and, of course, you would expect its midwoofer to be active when reproducing a 40Hz tone. But the Q600c is a 3-way speaker whose lower xover is at 500Hz. The midwoofer would not be expected to be active at all when reproducing a 40Hz tone. The midwoofer operates from 500Hz to 2500Hz. Try a 1200Hz tone (or thereabouts).

Have you connected the Q600c to your R or L channel and played full-range music through it, alone (disconnect the other Q300, too) and compared it to how a Q300 sounds, alone? It should be very apparent if the midwoofer isn't operating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

At 40Hz I would expect the passive radiators to be moving much more than the central cone.

There is only one passive radiator and, as I pointed out, you wouldn't expect the midwoofer in the UniQ driver to be active at all when the Q600c is fed a 40Hz tone.
cream puff's Avatar cream puff 02:33 PM 03-09-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolskizm View Post

Hey guys, sorry it took so long to get back...had a busy week. I tried quite a few things such as changing all to LF as a member suggested and also making sure the bridges are secured. I did not try bi-wiring, which I may try tonight. I did leave a message for KEF and will speak to them today to see if it is in fact defective. I made a video of the q600c hooked up to the left channel and my q300 on the right and ran a 40hz test tone. It's not on the video, but the q300 has absolute clear excursion of the midrange woofer. The q600c's only excursion is coming from both outside speakers, but no movement whatsoever from the middle. Again, I'm not sure if it's supposed to act this way, but I don't believe so. Anyhow, here is the link if you'd like to check it out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmDpR...XO_-srg_tc4%3D



a 40hz test tone should not move the middle woofer at all, the 600c is a 3 way design, try a like 500 hz tone, and i bet the middle moves just fine
beaveav's Avatar beaveav 03:03 PM 03-09-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

...
There is only one passive radiator and, as I pointed out, you wouldn't expect the midwoofer in the UniQ driver to be active at all when the Q600c is fed a 40Hz tone.

Oh, my mistake. I'm not familiar with the Q600c, but when watching the video I just assumed (wrongfully so) that the top and bottom were both passive.

In that case, you all are right that you wouldn't expect the center to move at all with 40Hz.
toolskizm's Avatar toolskizm 04:41 PM 03-09-2012
So the test tones were actually a bunch of sweeps. That 40hz tone happened to be at the end and made it most obvious to see. I'm going to get a 500hz and 1200hz tone and check it out. I'll report back.

EDIT:
Ran a few more tones and I guess it is working right. Admittedly, like I mentioned in movies the speaker did sound ok. I did some more configuring as far as moving to the LF posts and running audyssey again and dialogue was fine. At a 500hz tone, you can't really see movement on any speakers, but it's definitely producing the sound like the q300 is. Also on a 200hz tone the q300 moves like normal and on the 600 only the two outside do. So if that's how it should work, then I'm good...would've been nice if I could've auditioned them beforehand and avoided all this, but I'm definitely new to the home audio world so guess I'll be learning as I go.
I think the main reason I was concerned was when running mult ch and playing music. I was expecting the center to produce nearly the same type of sound as the left and rights. And maybe it's a misunderstanding of how mult ch works exactly, but that's what really got me concerned.

Oh well, I guess nothing to see here. Thumbs up to KEF though. They contacted me on this board for assistance and by phone. Great customer service..even for a newbie home audio purchaser.
sivadselim's Avatar sivadselim 05:26 PM 03-09-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolskizm View Post

...would've been nice if I could've auditioned them beforehand and avoided all this, but I'm definitely new to the home audio world so guess I'll be learning as I go.

Too late, now, but just curious, how much was a pair of Q300s and how much was the Q600c? If you had asked, here (and maybe you did), I would have recommended you try a perfectly matching Q300 as your center speaker, too, if you could accommodate it. That said, there is no reason at all that a Q600c shouldn't work great as a center speaker with your Q300s. It should match very well. I don't think an audition would have been much benefit. I don't think your issue, whatever it is, is occurring at reproduction.


Quote:
Originally Posted by toolskizm View Post

I think the main reason I was concerned was when running mult ch and playing music. I was expecting the center to produce nearly the same type of sound as the left and rights. And maybe it's a misunderstanding of how mult ch works exactly, but that's what really got me concerned.

What is your multichannel music source device? Or do you mean when you apply some sort of processing to 2-channel music in order to get faux multichannel playback? If so, what processing are you applying?

Unless there is something about your Q600c's placement and/or room that is affecting its sound, dramatically, I think you have an issue that is occuring somewhere prior to the speaker, itself. Fed identical material, the Q600c should sound very similar to the Q300.
toolskizm's Avatar toolskizm 08:10 PM 03-09-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Too late, now, but just curious, how much was a pair of Q300s and how much was the Q600c? If you had asked, here (and maybe you did), I would have recommended you try a perfectly matching Q300 as your center speaker, too, if you could accommodate it. That said, there is no reason at all that a Q600c shouldn't work great as a center speaker with your Q300s. It should match very well. I don't think an audition would have been much benefit. I don't think your issue, whatever it is, is occurring at reproduction.

What is your multichannel music source device? Or do you mean when you apply some sort of processing to 2-channel music in order to get faux multichannel playback? If so, what processing are you applying?

Unless there is something about your Q600c's placement and/or room that is affecting its sound, dramatically, I think you have an issue that is occuring somewhere prior to the speaker, itself. Fed identical material, the Q600c should sound very similar to the Q300.


The pair of q300 and q600 were just about the same price. I was told the front stage should all be the same and I understand the concept. I just plan on (in the near future) going with q900 as my fronts and I can't put another q900 as the center. I'll eventually move my q300 to the rear and have the 600 as center. I figured this would be best for my situation.
As far as how I'm playing my music...I have a Denon 2312 hooked up to both PS3 via hdmi, also have my laptop hooked via optical audio using a toslink to 3.5mm adapter. I also have an ipod connected directly to the denon. The mult ch I'm talking about is from the denon's options.
RobertRoyal's Avatar RobertRoyal 11:08 AM 03-10-2012
Greetings! Proud new owner of KEFs here. Someone suggested I post my review link here, so thought I would.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1397974

Not that the Q300s aren't great, but I am already planning on adding Q900s for fronts...damn speaker fever.
cream puff's Avatar cream puff 01:23 PM 03-10-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertRoyal View Post

Greetings! Proud new owner of KEFs here. Someone suggested I post my review link here, so thought I would.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1397974

Not that the Q300s aren't great, but I am already planning on adding Q900s for fronts...damn speaker fever.

if you like the 300s you will LOVE the 900s.. great sounding speaker.
SweElite's Avatar SweElite 04:42 AM 03-12-2012
Hi Guys !

I had a friend that during this weekend was listening to the R900. He basically thought that the sound had sparkle, but that the bass was a bit "grumsy".

Also he noticed that if putting his hand to the side of the speaker while it was playing it was a lot of strong vibrations in the cabinet.

Can someone comment on the above ? That's what im afraid of that the cabinet work is not that good on this series.

Cheers
arshishb's Avatar arshishb 10:06 AM 03-12-2012
Well guys to toolskizm's credit, I was curious about my Q600C as well. I never ran the receiver's pink noise tone on it as I just hooked it up & never bothered configuring it. Anyway when i ran the noise, I noticed how weak the bass sounded, to the point of no bass. When the same noise was rendered through my Q300s it sounded the way it should have sounded, much clearer & stronger.

Then I connect the left channel output to the center & ran the receiver in Pure Direct mode with a instrumental music CD that doesnt produce deep bass as I didnt want to overload the center. The music sounded horrible, the bass was just NOT there, mid bass was pathetic & this is being driven by an Emotiva UPA7 which is a nice amp. I immediately hooked up my Q300s & wow I am thinking of just using a Q300 as a my center as it was that good. For a $500 center the Q600 has turned out pretty disappointing. Doesn't make sense, same driver as the Q300, instead of a port they have "bass drivers", 3 way design & almost double in weight; yet the sound seems like its coming from a boom box?

For what its worth, I have it running today with the same CD running in repeat mode & I am going to see the result when I get home in the evening.
cream puff's Avatar cream puff 11:14 AM 03-12-2012
i think you guys are forgetting that the q600c was designed to be a center speaker, I'm sure they designed it to be good for voice etc as that is the main purpose of a center, i would assume this would take away some of its musicality and low end.

i would bet if you did the reverse test, the 600c will have a more clear dialogue than a 300c if playing movies/vocals
arshishb's Avatar arshishb 11:58 AM 03-12-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by cream puff View Post

i think you guys are forgetting that the q600c was designed to be a center speaker, I'm sure they designed it to be good for voice etc as that is the main purpose of a center, i would assume this would take away some of its musicality and low end.

i would bet if you did the reverse test, the 600c will have a more clear dialogue than a 300c if playing movies/vocals

Correct me if I am wrong, but along with dialogs, isn't the center where the "action" takes place? Explosions,etc? Yes, the big boom is handled by the .1 channel which is the sub but above the crossover wouldn't it originate from the center, thereby needing emphasis on the mid bass?

When I go home I will play some vocal heavy music still as the left channel & see if the vocals come out clearer than the Q300. I am leaving the Q900 out of this as there is simply no comparison to the Q900, they are just in a league of their own.
sivadselim's Avatar sivadselim 12:48 PM 03-12-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by cream puff View Post

I'm sure they designed it to be good for voice etc as that is the main purpose of a center, i would assume this would take away some of its musicality and low end.

Naw. A center channel speaker isn't (or shouldn't be) designed around being able to reproduce anything in particular. There is nothing different or special about the info contained in a soundtrack's center channel. A speaker can either reproduce general sound well or it can't. The main thing a center channel speaker is (or should be) designed around is its non-ideal horizontal orientation. And in that respect KEFs have a leg up on most conventional horizontally-oriented speakers.
jsil 02:57 PM 03-12-2012
What's the difference between the IQ90 and Q900 in SQ.
Tags: Kef , Kef Audio , Kef Bookshelf Speaker , Kef Center Channel Speaker , Kef C4 Subwoofer Black , Kef Q100bl Bookshelf Speaker , Kef Ls50 2 Way Speaker System , Kef Q700wa Floorstanding Speaker , Kef T Series Floor Stand Pair
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